Densho Digital Repository - Bill Tashima Interview

Densho Digital Repository
Seattle JACL Oral History Collection
Title: Bill Tashima Interview
Narrator: Bill Tashima
Interviewers: Elaine Kim, Dr. Kyle Kinoshita
Date: March 18, 2022
Densho ID: ddr-sjacl-2-39

<Begin Segment 1>

KK: Good afternoon, everyone. Today, we're here today to interview Bill Tashima for our Seattle JACL Legacy Grant project. And we have here Bill, who will introduce himself and his role as former president of Seattle JACL and someone who's quite active in JACL, and Elaine Kim, who is our University of Washington student intern, will be conducting the interview. So with that, I'm gonna go ahead and pass the baton to Elaine who will initiate our interview with Bill today.

EK: So, thank you, Bill, for agreeing to this interview. I am thoroughly excited not only just to get to know you, but all your achievements, and all you have done for, not just the JACL, but the overall contribution to the society. And like Kyle said, this is an interview for the Legacy Fund Grant project, which was -- it's a project that documents Seattle JACL's 100 years of activism, and so we're being a... we have received a grant or JACL -- Seattle JACL has received a grant that has allowed the chapter to interview amazing individuals who have contributed to the activism of the chapter. So I guess we'll just go right in and start off with asking Bill just about -- just an introduction. Tell us a little bit about yourself.

BT: Thanks, Elaine. Yes, my name is Bill Tashima. I'm a Sansei or third generation Japanese American. I was born in Cleveland, Ohio, and why Cleveland? Are there Japanese Americans in Cleveland? Actually, there were because, during the war, when Japanese Americans were incarcerated, one way that they could get out was to voluntarily relocate to the East Coast or Midwest. So my mom, who was from Washington, at Heart Mountain, Wyoming, relocated to Cleveland. And my dad, who was from Southern California, at Poston at the incarceration camp, relocated there to Cleveland. There they were, at the time, probably around 2,700 Japanese American Nisei all in their twenties, mostly unmarried, and one part of Cleveland, Ohio. And people met, formed their organizations, and got married, and that's where I came from. So even though you may think are there Japanese Americans in Cleveland? Yes. And because we were all thrown in the same situation, we were very close knit for a really small community. But I grew up with, in a strong JACL household, my dad was one of the first presidents in Cleveland, Ohio. And went to school in a small liberal arts college, spent my junior year in Germany going to school at a German university. Afterwards went to Kent State to major, get a master's degree -- which I didn't complete, in political science. And then I had a whole series of jobs, I mean, it was like, I was a bartender, I was a waiter, I was working in a men's budget store, I worked in a factory. [Laughs] I worked at SeaWorld of Ohio -- yes, there was a SeaWorld in Ohio also, but all sorts of types of jobs until I landed my permanent job which was working for the Social Security Administration which I worked until I retired. And, anyway, around 1980, 1981, I realized I could do that job anywhere, so I went in for some transfers and transferred to Seattle, Washington. And, gosh, say a little bit about yourself, that's kind of hard. I met my first partner who later passed away from AIDS, became involved with the community with a whole lot of different organizations. I was chapter president in 2004 and later in 2012. In 2005, I met my current partner, Chris Bentley, and we were married in 2013. And we have a son who just turned twenty-five. I retired in 2010, and very, very happy to be retired. That's a little bit about myself.

EK: Well, thank goodness that you are in Seattle. What would we do without Bill in Seattle? But thank you for that introduction.

<Begin Segment 2>

EK: So hopping right into just Seattle JACL, how and why did you become active with the Seattle JACL chapter?

BT: Well, I think I mentioned that, for one reason or another, JACL has always been in our blood. And actually I joined when I was thirteen, becoming active with the Cleveland Junior JACL and meeting a lot of people, we had a very active organization, and it was fun. We had chapters all around the Midwest, we would get together three times a year, and we ranged everywhere from Twin Cities, Minnesota, down the St. Louis down to Detroit, Chicago. And if you can imagine when you're young, high school, college age, there's nothing better than to get together with friends your age, especially when you have a similar background. And that's where I developed my identification with Japanese Americans and JACL and became passionate about the goals that they had in terms of bettering our society. That kind of wove into my political interests because we're always looking for that type of agenda. And when I moved out to Seattle in 1981, I transferred my membership but wasn't totally active. It wasn't until my first partner passed away and I decided I need to get back into doing things. And then my really good friend, Elaine Akagi, said, "Bill, it's time to get back into JACL." And so I joined the board and the rest is history, it's kind of like, you just become involved and when they would go to a board meeting and would ask for a volunteer, it's kind of like, I would say to myself, "Well, I could do that, it doesn't sound like too much work." And so I'd raise my hand. After a while, I realized, you got to stop raising your hand here. [Laughs] But that's how it started.

EK: Perfect.

<Begin Segment 3>

EK: Well, on that topic of being so associated with the JACL, if you don't mind describing some of the significant accomplishments of Seattle JACL, with which you were involved in, so just sharing -- I mean, all of them if you would wish, but just some of your accomplishments that you've achieved within the chapter.

BT: Yeah, that's, that's a hard question because I think that our chapter has done so much and I think that we're a premiere chapter, and with everything from our legacy to our culture to activities with the community, civil rights, social justice, we have... I can't even begin to detail how much we've done. And, at that same time, I would never ever claim that this was due to my work at all because it's all been the organization and fantastic people and fantastic leaders. There are a couple of things that I, that I've done that I think that I had a good part in, one was when I first joined, I remember thinking about this question, and one of my first things I was membership chair. And this was back around 2001. And, at the time, our membership had been around 500, and after a year, I was able to get it up to over 750. Another thing was just thinking about... I think one thing I'm good at is kind of like coming up with ideas, different. One is on fundraising. Our scholarship program -- which is very vibrant right now -- we have six scholarships totaling $20,000. But before we only gave out about a third of that, and in order to raise money for that, we would have a raffle at our banquets and raised about maybe two, two and a half, two thousand, twenty-five hundred dollars. But one thing I saw in another organization was a dessert dash to raise money where people bid on cakes. And, of course, nobody bids on cakes, they're actually bidding on the scholarships, helping that out. So we started that and we would raise around $12,000 a year. So that was a program that I started that was good. I think the whole thing about fundraising is moving ourselves from depending on the community to ask for money all the time, is reaching out and doing grants, asking for grants to do stuff. And it's just not been doing -- it's not just me writing a grant request, it's teaching other people how to do grants.

The other two things that I think about that I've been, that I think I've been involved with, one is actually recruiting people, actively recruiting people to our board as an officer, and particularly young people. And if I meet people, I pay attention to what they're saying and tell them, "I remember almost everything, I'm gonna come back and ask you later if you can help us." And I will do that, and say, "Why don't you to come up to our meeting and see what we're doing," and recognizing their talents. I think a lot of times people try to recruit young people, but I think that some people tend to think of it as, okay, we have our young people quota on our board now, so that's good. Well, it's just not having young people on the board. It's getting young people to do the work, to teach 'em, and give them a lot of responsibility. Because that's the only way people become active and attached to your organization. And I've actively tried to do that, is recruit young people, especially as our board and our executive board and our presidents. I think the other thing that I tried to do a lot is increase our presence in the community through social media. And, around 2010, our incoming president Ryan Chin set up a Facebook account. And, it's like, whoa, this is a really big opportunity. We could reach a lot of people even if they are not going to come out to our activities or even if they're not going to join our group, they'll see our posts and you'll create a vibe about Seattle JACL and then they'll know about us. And so I think that, among Asian American groups in Seattle, we have one of the more vibrant Facebook, social media campaigns. And I think it's very effective. Other programs, I think, we can talk about it later. I don't take credit for it, but I know that I -- we did a lot of work with the R-74 campaign in 2012, that passed marriage equality in Washington. We did a lot of work in 2000 to pass the Civil Liberties Public Education Fund grants. We've done a lot of work on just expanding on social justice issues, immigration, civil rights. Yeah, so I don't know, does that help?

EK: Absolutely helped.

<Begin Segment 4>

EK: I actually had a question of my own, veering off of what we sent you, but I was just wondering, because you had a lot of your -- it seems like the roles that you have taken on focus on recruiting and being able to create a community. And so I was just wondering what value do you find in getting this number and like not just getting this number, but the individuals that you reach out to? So yeah, just like the core values that you find and being able to complete this role.

BT: That I find in other people?

EK: That you find in being able to recruit individuals. Like what in your work, as membership chair, increasing presence on social media as well as recruiting younger individuals. Like what value do you find in being able to, I guess, get all these individuals to join the JACL or join the projects that you have worked on thus far?

BT: I think the value isn't with me as much as the other person and recognizing that value in the other person. It's kind of like, when I talk to someone I'm not trying to say -- find someone that agrees with me or thinks the same way I do. It's like, when I talk to someone, it's like, wow, that's really neat. It's just, it's more than respect. It's more like, it's kind of like, wow, I wish I was like that. I wish I had your enthusiasm, or I can't believe you're doing all this right now. Yeah, we could really use it, really use you. And I think it's kind of like -- for me, it's a recognition that people have so much to offer and also that people want to offer things but you have to ask sometimes. Because you just can't wait around asking, waiting for people to say, "Yeah, I'll do this." You have to just -- sometimes you have to be the spark and say, "Hey, can you do this?"

EK: Yeah, totally. I agree with that. I think that as an individual who tries to, I guess, start up a lot of social justice movements -- I know, in high school, I was definitely more active than I was, I was definitely more active then than I am now, however, definitely need to get on that road but I know that, for me, it seemed like a pain more to recruit individuals or try to get a group going to, I guess, be on the same page as me, just join me but, I guess, realizing now it's less so about, I mean, the numbers are always great, but it's more about the connections that you make, and being able to make those connections and make them meaningful. So I guess it was just an interest of mine, just to see where your values were in like building these connections. But yes, thank you so much for sharing.

<Begin Segment 5>

EK: And I guess just moving on, if you can talk about the times and environment during the period in which you work with a chapter personally, organizationally, systematically? I mean, can you just share some notes on that? That would be great.

BT: That's interesting because I think that when I came on and became active with Seattle JACL, organizationally and within the chapter -- within our board, let me just talk about the board. It's really cohesive, it's kind of like a mind meld. At sometimes you actually want a little bit more disagreement and confrontation perhaps. But, that's a good question. The things that I could tell you about working with our organization in our community, I'll tell you, one thing is Seattle JACL has a history of just being so much a integral part of the community and everything that -- people that were involved with the community, if you were to look at the leaders of JACL in the '50s and the '60s, and the leaders in the community, they were one and the same. And if anything that happened somewhere along -- I would say the 1990s to 2000 -- our leaders in the chapter still remain strong, but -- this is going to be a little hard to explain -- but to me the community base changed slightly. Because the board, if you went down the board, probably two-thirds of them were not from Seattle, they were like me, they were like from outside. And I think that would have been a harder time a little bit earlier when you had all these high school and elementary school connections. But by that time, it was not as strong. But that definitely was... I felt that at the beginning there was a certain -- I don't want to say rift, that's too strong of a word. There was a lessening of that tie between being Seattle and being Seattle JACL. But I think now, you don't feel that at all. I think that, for the most part, there hasn't been very much personnel, organization systemic change.

There are definite differences of opinion within the Japanese American community and within JACL. Perhaps the strongest is, because JACL, especially Seattle JACL's position on actions taken during World War II have changed. And because JACL was perceived to be such a pro-government organization in terms of cooperation with incarceration and things like that, that Seattle JACL later organized a reconciliation effort to recognize not only our effects, but those who opposed the draft during World War II, and those who resisted during World War II. And I think for myself, that's a good move. But again, for people of that era, especially our members who were the sole JACL during the war and afterwards, that was a lot harder emotion to come to grips with. For me, I'm removed from the exact situation. I wasn't in camp, I wasn't called names for being a JACLer, but for these people, there were still that antagonism between the two camps. And, but I think, like I said, sometimes we lose members, but I believe we're doing the right thing. I think that our view right now is proper, that what happened during the war is a terrible thing and the enemy was not our fellow Japanese Americans. The enemy was the government, the enemy was racism, inaction, and so let's keep your eyes on what's important here. Yeah, otherwise, I think, like I said, I didn't have to directly deal with that. And in fact, I find, for the most part, I find the community just very welcoming. Everybody has divisive opinions and that's going to happen when you have a great community. Does that answer your question?

EK: It absolutely does. It absolutely does. I actually was able to take a class on incarceration with Vince and learning about the JACL and everything, there are definitely different accounts of it. And so just to see that, at this point, it's really just about fighting the good fight is just amazing to see that kind of progression because of seeing those different accounts within history. But like you said, at this point, it's all just about really fighting good fight. And even though there are differences in opinion, it's recognizing that it's we, not us against them, kind of thing.

<Begin Segment 6>

EK: So, yeah, well, if you don't have anything else to add onto that, I'm super excited because these next questions were created or developed by me with the help of Kyle. And I just want to say, first of all, I enjoyed reading everything that I could find on you on the internet. Just like constantly looking for more and more articles, even if they weren't used to create questions, I genuinely enjoyed reading and just about you. So no more of me rambling, but I guess just the first question that, through these, through my interest in reading about you, is that serving as the president twice for the Seattle JACL chapter -- that could be wrong, but I am aware that you have served as the president -- what has this position meant to you? And how has being in this position helped you achieve your overarching goals of advancing justice for individuals who experience discrimination such as BIPOC communities, the LGBTQIA+ groups, and just marginalized individuals?

BT: Well, that's a good question. So, yeah, I love our incoming president this year and I'm sure he knows what I'm talking about is sometimes you don't think about being president and you don't think about what that's going to mean. And it's, there's an excitement about it, but there's also a tremendous apprehension. What it meant to me first -- and I really mean this -- I was very cognizant of what a big honor that was to be president. And in our old JACL office, when you walked in, it was -- we had a long meeting table. But along the wall was the pictures of every president that we've had since 1921. And when you looked at that wall, you saw everybody who was anybody in Seattle and you realize you felt like they were all watching you. [Laughs] And you realize you have a big responsibility to carry on their tradition and to uphold the organization. So what it meant to me was, was not to goof up, but try to do my best and advance JACL. And I think we did that. It was, it was a challenge, but I think that we faced everything very well.

What it meant to advance social justice issues and minority communities, that was, that's an easy thing to answer because if you're a member of Seattle JACL, you are definitely, that's part of your, the reason why you're there. I mean, and it was in 2004, they were still battling the remnants of 9/11. Seeing why we need to remember our heritage, a legacy of incarceration, because the same thing was happening to Arab American and Muslim Americans, it was the same stereotyping, the same racism, the same accusations without any type of proof or anything like this. And it was just -- basically it was just pure racism. And it was... what was interesting about it was you could see how racism is ingrained in hysteria and how hysteria and the fear of the unknown just feeds these irrational feelings, and you realize how important it is to just, to bring it back to a personal basis. And I think that one thing we did and it was -- it wasn't my work as much as our civil rights committee, for example. We, they did work on recognizing... there was a family called the Hamudi family, a Somali family in the south end that was being deprived of food stamps. They ran a store, they couldn't accept food stamps anymore, and how that devastated their family. And so bringing this issue from racism and the fear of a terrorist to an individual family, it was easier for the community to see, wait a minute, let's think about what's going on. Because actions have consequences and this is what's happening to this innocent family with their kids. So, that was one thing that I was proud of the chapter. The part about the LGBT community, you know, I would never classify myself as an activist because I know too many people that are activists for the LGBT community, and that would be [inaudible] their efforts to put me in that same class. But I will say that I am a proud gay person and I volunteer and speak up when I need to, yeah.

EK: Perfect, thank you.

<Begin Segment 7>

EK: So this is a very broad question, so I apologize in advance. But there are still individuals who continue to make claims that even when an event such as incarceration happened long ago, individuals who carry such scars, such scars from such events need to move on. For example, I think of Mitch McConnell and redress in terms of like slavery, and how he's just like, why this happened, this happened with my ancestors, why do we need to be the ones who pay for it, just examples like that. But, as an individual who believes that as time passes from when incarceration occurred, you believe that the bigger lesson now is how we learn and use such experiences to repair the injustice that occurs in our society today stem from inequality and discrimination. So just from that kind of background and your own thoughts for individuals who make such ignorant claims, what would you wish they would learn through your own belief of carrying such experiences onward, to combat injustices that occur today? A heavy a question, sorry. [Laughs]

BT: [Laughs] Okay. That was a simple question. So, no, that's, there's a lot of layers to what you just said. Okay. And the first thing is, it did happen eighty years ago. And in the terms of our history, which is relatively short, that is a long time. The bad part is it's indicative of a pattern that has occurred throughout our history and it's a pattern that hasn't been learned. When I think about JACL -- I mean about JA incarceration. I do think that it's been a long time. I remember one of my Nisei friends, when I asked her about a camp, and she said, "Bill, that was seventy years ago, I don't think about it." And that's one way to think about it, for her. On the other hand, I think that what we need to realize is we're not bringing these things up to talk about our pain in terms of... we're so, we were so, kind of like asking for sympathy or something like that. I think the important lesson is that, again, this is a pattern of something that's happened throughout our history, and it keeps happening. And it's time where we learn about this.

I'm gonna talk a little bit more on depth on this, if you don't mind. When they first talked about redress -- and I was from Cleveland -- I actually was not in favor of redress. And part of the reason was, I just didn't see how asking for money was going to solve anything. And I didn't see how you could even put a price on the dignity and the loss of freedom that my parents and my grandparents went through. And I didn't think that it was right, that they say to make things good we'll have redress, okay. I, my opinion changed because when I moved out to Seattle, I had the opportunity, a couple opportunities. One, I had the opportunity to see the farm that my grandparents farmed in Wapato, Washington, south of Yakima, which they were never able to return to after the war. They lost it. I was able to visit Heart Mountain on the way to Washington -- I recognize it from the freeway, I stopped, I saw the desolate place that my mom was incarcerated at. But more than anything else, in September of 1981, about a month after I was here, I was able to attend every single redress hearing that they had, at that time, Seattle South -- South Seattle Central College. And for the first time in my life, for three days, I heard person after person give testimony about what happened to them and their families during the war. These are stories I had never heard before because my parents only talked about the good things. When they talked about incarceration with their friends, there would always be laughter or, "Do you remember that food we used to get or remember playing with these people?" I hear the stories of what they left and how they had to leave their friends and their pets behind them, things like that. I also heard a remarkable person, Bill Marutani, lawyer from -- a judge from Philadelphia. And he said something to the effect that asking for redress is the right of every citizen. If you look at the first amendment, and they talk about freedom of religion, press, and speech, they also talked about the right of every citizen to petition the government for redress of wrongs that were committed. And that, like, lit a bell in my head, this is our right to ask for redress. And then he said, "Redress is not about the amount of money, there's nothing can repay for lost time or loss of liberty, but our society is a monetary society, and our society is based on dollars. And when you put a penalty high enough, that teaches people, the government, you can't do that again. Because if you do it again, you're gonna have to pay again." And then it began to make sense to me. Yeah, this is our right, and we have to teach the government a lesson. So I think that, I carry that with me a lot.

And so when I think about redress, again, the lesson here is, I don't want to just repeat the story about what happened to Japanese Americans. I actually brought some things that I want to show you, if I can. This is a piece of art that my grandmother, who was an Issei, did while she was at that camp. And I bring this up because, like many people, she came to this country for a better life, no other reason. She wasn't trying to be subversive to our government or anything like that. But even in these times of trouble, she was able to do something that was beautiful. The other picture is -- this is Heart Mountain as we traveled through, on our way to Seattle. And I recognized it and then we asked the gas station guy, and he told us how to get there. And then this is the actual -- you probably can't see it. This is the actual letter of apology that the President of the United States sent everybody who received the redress check. And, yeah, it's -- the words are really touching. And finally, I have a plaque written in Japanese and of course, being Sansei, I can't read a word of this. [Laughs] But the translation basically is, "In spite of all your contrite words, the tea cup is still broken." And I put this all together, I usually set a presentation on Day of Remembrance at University of Washington. And I think this is one of the things I get from when you ask that question is the important part of any type of action that the government does, the important part of racism in our society, the important part of the lessons that we learned from World War II, how we treated Japanese Americans, needs to be presented in the lowest common denominator, which is people. When the government, when people discriminate against a class of people, they are discriminating against a person, against the family, and there's real consequences to this. It's not something that's theoretical, you are harming a fellow person. And that's what we need to do to stop these types of actions. I bring this up about "In spite of your contrite words, the tea cup is still broken." You can say whatever you want, the government can say whatever you want, but we know you broke the tea cup, so we're going to be watching you again. And every time something happens -- and I don't care if it's against the Japanese Americans, Chinese Americans, Muslims, Arabs, Sikhs, LGBT people, we're gonna hold you accountable because your actions harm people. And that's the reason why I think -- why redress, why reparations, why Day of Remembrance is important. It's just not saying that's because it's happened with Japanese Americans. No, this is an American story and it's been repeated too often. Is that...

EK: Absolutely. That just obviously developed so many thoughts in my head while listening to this. I, just thinking about reading about the history of incarceration, everything, and I've always thought to myself, what is, what is redress? And what, what does it amount to when it, in regards to, like you said, you can't put a price on everything that has happened.

<Begin Segment 8>

EK: And so, I guess, while listening to you just had a question of my own in regards to allies, I guess, just from time to time, a lot of my POC -- BIPOC friends, we always talk about how, at a certain point, it gets tiring to constantly have to educate individuals, when it's, when there's no effort on the other end. And so, just, it's always a question that I stumble upon, because it's like, if no one else is going to educate, or if the other end is not relenting to wanting to -- it's not even relenting but just wanting to listen to the stories that as individuals who face this kind of discrimination and inequality, I guess, just wondering from stories that have been passed down to you and experiences of your own, what do you have to say to -- what do you believe that the role of allies are in regards to instances like this, if you don't mind answering that question?

BT: No, I think that's the whole, I think that's the whole key. I think that that's where you stop the cycle. Because you have to speak up. An example is, okay. When you're Black, if you're Asian American, chances are you're not going to hear the secondary prejudice happening because people aren't gonna say things to you. But think about if you're Jewish or you're gay or lesbian and that's when you realize people haven't changed. I mean, and you have a choice, you can just say, "Oh, I'm not gonna say anything," or you can say, "Oh, why would you say that? I'm gay." "Why would you say that? I'm Jewish." "I don't understand." I think that that's important to speak out. And the other part is, there seems to be, I think there's a comfort in a silence among people when someone says... when people create an atmosphere of acceptance of things are okay, that's where things spread. The prime example -- you could see this in the last four years -- and I'm not going to make this political, but when you create an atmosphere that allows indifference and prejudice to exist, and you don't stop it, it spreads and it gets ingrained. So if you think that only the person affected should be the ones combating this, it's not going to be effective at all. And that -- and when you talk about allies, we're all allies, because we're all in the same fight. It's... yeah.

EK: Yeah. Well, thank you so much. I know those... I just, those are just like, everyday thoughts that I think of when I always see the news, there's always another tragedy. And it just gets hard, I guess. And so, thank you for sharing your thoughts on all of this. It really has given me better insight on how to understand different things in this world. But, yeah, thank you so much.

<Begin Segment 9>

EK: And so I guess, another -- might be another broad, heavy question. But you are a powerhouse and a voice for many communities, especially for the LGBTQIA+ community. And a key moment in your work for progressing these rights was speaking out and sharing your experiences as a gay Boy Scout in the 2003 JACL National Convention regarding a resolution that would protest the Boy Scouts' decision to exclude scouts who are gay are a part of the LGBTQIA community. So what did this moment mean for you? And why do you find it so important in moments such as these to speak out or break the silence? And you touched upon this, but if you had any other thoughts in regards to that question, please go for it.

BT: Yeah, that was kind of an interesting part because, again, like I said, I don't consider myself an LGBT activist or anything like this. And at that point, even though that was about twenty years ago, our society, it's progressed, and the thing about being out or being closeted, it's... you have to imagine the situation back then. And it was kind of like... I had told Arlene that I was -- Arlene Oki, who was our president -- that I was gay and we were talking about it. And then I go to the convention as an alternate and they're having a discussion about... another chapter had presented a resolution to condemn the Boy Scouts for threatening to kick out gay people, gay members, Boy Scouts.. And Arlene said, "Bill, you might want to speak to this." And so I said, "Oh, sure." So, I said, "I have no problem." And so I got up and I remember talking about it, and I said, I introduced myself because I don't think a lot of people knew me, I said, "My name is Bill Tashima. I am a longtime JACLer, I joined in the '60s, I am on the board for the Seattle JACL. I was a Boy Scout. I was a Cub Scout, Boy Scout Explorer." And then I said, "And I'm gay." I said, "The Boy Scouts is a great organization, but this is just the wrong message to send, anytime you discriminate against it." I said, "It's worse than that. I treasure my time with the Boy Scouts. I learned so much. I have lasting friends," and I just looked at everybody and I said, "Think about those times when you're growing up and adolescence, trying to fit in, find the group that you love, and all of a sudden, being ostracized, being called names, and being kicked out by a group that, that you just want to devote your life to." and I looked at everybody and I said, " You know how it is to be called a name, don't you? For something that you have no control over? Is this what we want to be doing?" and I said something to the effect that, "So, the Boy Scouts is a good organization, but they're wrong on this and that's why we have to vote for this resolution." And I remember a lot of silence because this... even twenty years ago was like, maybe people thought there weren't any gay JACLers, I don't know. [Laughs] And I started walking back and my friend, who was a delegate from Cleveland, came up and he said, "Bill, I had no idea." [Laughs] And then I come back and Arlene is crying and I said, "Arlene, what's wrong?" and she's just, "Bill, I just wanted you to talk about the resolution, I didn't want you to come out." [Laughs] And I laughed, I said, "Arlene, its fine." And it saved me a lot of individual one on one talks. [Laughs] But anyway, the bottom line was, again, I think, I don't think what I did was all that special, but what I tried to do is, was bring it down to a one on one level, bringing it down, not talking about rights as much as personal and how we all fit in to this type, and we can all relate.

So, the other part that I think I was... One part I really enjoyed was working on the R-74 campaign. And that was to bring freedom of marriage to Washington and our board has been on Freedom to Marry way back even before national JACL. And this was back in 1991. And Seattle JACL is on record for that. And so this was not a surprise. And we've always endorsed every move and, when the time came, I was able to be on the People of Color campaign for R-74 which enabled me to really speak out. And I spoke, I remember going into South Seattle Central College, being on TV, I wanted to... civic, civic club or something on a debate. And most of... I got to introduce George Takei at a big fundraiser for R-74. But I liked that, because I was able to make the intersection between being gay and being Japanese American very, very clearly. And I remember one thing I used to like to say, and when I talked about this, I would tell them the story about Japanese Americans. And I would say for a long time my grandparents weren't able to buy land, or become citizens. And, in 1950, they found out that they could become citizens and they could buy land. I said my dad was incarcerated and he lived long enough to see an apology being sent by the government. And then I said if R-74 passes, then for the first time, I will feel like a complete citizen because I will be able to do everything else anybody else can, including marrying the person that I love. And I just remember being so happy when that passed, and being able to speak at the victory celebration at the Westin Hotel in Seattle. And it wasn't just Washington, if anybody remembers. It swept four states, Maine, Minnesota, Maryland, and Washington. And, at that time, it's almost like a wall had come tumbling down in our country. And then to think about the progress since moving on from gay marriage and gay adoption now to be transgender rights, it's a remarkable quantum leap. Now granted, there's a lot of work that needs to be done here, but I don't think people would have thought about that fifteen years ago. Again, I am not a powerhouse person, but I am happy that I was able to do what I could do.

EK: I mean, any action amounts to... it's always action over nothing.

<Begin Segment 10>

EK: And just on the note of being part of the community, speaking out for this community, and also being a Japanese American, I know that you just went over this briefly, but if you don't mind going more in depth about the intersectionality between those two. So as a Japanese American, and a member of the LGBTQIA+ community, how has this intersectionality of identities shaped you as the individual? And I know you don't like to say activist for the LGBTQIA community, but just as an individual who is an ally and promotes these rights, just how this intersectionality has shaped you as an individual and the work that you've done today.

BT: I think the intersectionality is basically making everybody aware that there are no, there are no -- this isn't like a Venn diagram where you have completely different circles that never intersect. And the whole thing about our society is, when you talk about one person, you're talking about everybody sooner or later, okay. And so just because you're an Asian American doesn't mean that you're not gay, or you cannot be gay, and that these are separate communities. And in fact, what communities do is, do intersect, and there's a lot of commonalities and there are differences. But one thing is when it comes to discrimination, and things like that, there's a lot of intersections, and the basis is the same. And then therefore, the work that you have to do becomes the same.

One thing that I've become more vocal about is just telling, for example, my coming out story, okay. And part of that is because it was like, I didn't think anything about my story was anything more different than anybody else's. And yet, I realized that if I think about my past, and I think about all the trauma that I had, hidden, even though I was relatively happy, all the trauma that I had hidden growing up, and, with my peers, and in high school and college, and even at work �and then trying to deal with my first partner's dying from AIDS. And I started thinking, I never talk about that. I never talk about that. And then I think about my parents, and the Issei, and their experiences in the war, and I think about, they never talked about it either. But nowadays, when I listen to someone that lived through that period, it's important for me to hear what they were witness to and to understand the trauma that they had gone through. And so, again, I don't think I was anything special, but then I feel I should tell my story because, for other people, it might help. If anything else, it helps them to know that they aren't alone. And it helps them to know, especially these days, that people care, and that there are avenues to help you. So, in that light, I did a... it was probably a half hour videotaped session with a group called Okaeri down in L.A. That was the later part of the L.A. Film Festival, and then we had a panel discussion on that talking about our coming out stories. I recently did a two-part story with the North American Post that talked about my coming out. And I just learned that that was broadcast on the Nikkei network, and it's now being translated into Japanese -- which I won't be able to read -- but it's being translated into Japanese. But the part about this isn't so much my story as much as many people know that, yeah, when you talk about the LGBTQIA community, it's not so much separate from the Japanese American Asian American community because there are intersections. And so, again, nothing earth-breaking, but I feel like just as people talk about incarceration, I should talk about my story.

EK: Absolutely. Well, thank you. And just, yeah, for, I guess, intersectionality is a very important thing that I feel like a lot of individuals fail to recognize that impacts their -- themselves and the world that they live in. And so thank you for just sharing your experiences with that and your thoughts on that.

BT: I did want to add one more thing, Elaine.

EK: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.

BT: And it's, it partly is, sometimes, there was this one, I just asked this question on another part, and I forgot what it was. But when you talk about yourself, and you think about yourself, it becomes really hard to identify what part of yourself is this and what part of yourself is that. It's impossible. All you know is that -- and it's all part of you. Okay, so me being a Japanese American from the Midwest now living in Seattle and me being a gay person, it's hard for me to say, well, I feel this way because of this. But I do know that I am me because of all these experiences, and I'm happy about it.

<Begin Segment 11>

EK: I, just thinking about what you said, I am just reflecting over the fact that I feel like throughout my life, all the identities that I embrace today, kind of neglected when I was younger. Growing up, I guess, in Seattle, in the most white, Caucasian areas of just like my neighborhood, the school education, I feel like I've been in a... I was in a constant state of neglecting the identities that I am really proud of today, that I embrace today. And I think that this concept of intersectionality and identities and how they are shaped today by just blocking them out and everything has really impacted individuals today. And so, I think that having a conversation about intersectionality is always important. So that's why I created this question. So thank you so much for sharing your thoughts on that. And just moving forward, are there -- are the other people or events -- are there people or events with Seattle JACL that you think we should consider, that we should further talk about, have a conversation about? And if so, who should we contact?

BT: Well, being on this committee and having considered a lot of people already, I think we've covered a lot. I think my -- a regret is that so many of our key people, especially the Nisei folks, it's too late to be... to have a meaningful discussion, �interview with them. And that's very sad to me that we've lost all of them. There are -- we have a number of people that have been influencing me, Elaine Akagi for one, Kip Tokuda is other one, Arlene Oki is another person. I think two people that, or three people that have had a major impact with me, one is Shigeko Uno who was the, our first woman president in 1948. We became really close friends at the 2000 -- gosh, 2004 Honolulu convention. And we stayed close friends until she passed away and I think she was ninety-four. Another one is May Namba. She was one of the school clerks for the Seattle school district, who was fired shortly after Pearl Harbor for her job, because members of the PTA thought these Japanese American school clerks -- and they were like, between the ages of seventeen and nineteen -- would poison the kids in the cafeteria or something. And she became an activist. And yeah, and I mean, oh the other, the other person is Al Sugiyama. He was a former, he was the first Asian American Seattle School District board member, and he was a consummate activist, he was always on target. We didn't always agree, but I learned a lot about strategy from him. And he was always like two steps ahead of me. I would, he would say something and I would say, "Well, I don't think that's gonna be -- that's an issue." He goes, "Well, it's not an issue now, that's not an issue tomorrow, but in two years, think about what might happen." He was really a firebrand.

EK: Well, I hope that, at some point, I'm able to find something on these individuals, they sound great.

<Begin Segment 12>

EK: And something that I'm super excited to ask about as part of the younger generation and as part of, yeah, just the younger generation and activism, what are your thoughts about current Japanese American activism, the Seattle JACL, and younger JA generation?

BT: That's easy. I'm really excited and I am in awe of what they're doing. And it's something that's original and it's something that's definitely something that I'm not savvy with, with technology and things like that. But one part that I totally enjoy right now is, is the efforts for the chapter to relate our legacy in terms of art, and not just in terms of books, or reports or even interviews. And so I think that the work that Gabrielle Nomura Gainor and Sarah Baker, in terms of telling our story in terms of dance or spoken word, it's things like that, that relate to younger generations, it's remarkable, just inspiring completely. The other part about this is, it's just the depth and the width and broadband of -- the consideration given to social justice issues, the fact that, that we're beyond talking about just the conventional types of racism and stereotyping, but getting into racial algorithms that are used in searches and what gets picked, and the fact that even facial recognition can be very racially motivated or stereotype oriented. Kind of like, it's like, how do you think about this? That's true. [Laughs] Anyway, I am really glad that we get into these areas. And the other part about this is, is that our current board and our current chapter still does not shy away from the hard issues, okay. So when it comes to, like, defunding the police or things like that, they take the time, not just to talk about it, but to take a stand, and to publicize an understanding of decisions with the entire membership. Very, very good. Just, like I said, just in awe and inspired by the future.

EK: I want to say I appreciate that just because I think that growing up from a pretty -- I want, I don't want to say like political or like conservative environment, I think that the support system that I'm surrounded with, normally they -- my family supports me, however, it is at times pretty conservative. So, I'll hear things such as, you'll get older when you understand when I talk about issues that, it's like, I don't need to be older to understand this, this is a thing that's happening right now. And so just being able to hear this appreciation for the younger generation is refreshing, first of all, but just, I think that -- I think about the support system that is necessary for the younger generation as well. Because sometimes I find myself kind of backing down from what I'm very passionate about because there are individuals telling me that this is, you're going too far with this, or, like I said, you'll understand when you get older. So just want to say I appreciate this kind of affirmation that exists. And it's really necessary, in my point of view, for it to exist, too. But I guess, to wrap everything up, is there anything else that you wanted to mention or describe that we didn't cover today?

BT: I can't think of anything. [Laughs]

EK: Yeah. Well, if you don't have any other words to say, this is a question that I usually ask at the end of an interview. But if you had to describe yourself, I guess in one word, what would you describe yourself as?

BT: I don't... I don't know. I would like to think easygoing, yes. I don't know.

EK: I agree. Well, if there isn't anything else that you want to share, Bill, I just want to say thank you so much for taking time out of your day to be able to contribute to this amazing project. And also to, I guess, I don't want to say like life lessons, but being able to hear from you definitely actually gave me some encouragement with the things that I do, with the struggles that I face. And so I just wanted to say thank you. And just hearing your stories is -- hearing about your stories are really just, I just, I have no words for it, obviously. And so yeah, I just want to say thank you so much. And yeah, Kyle, I don't know if you have anything else left to say.

KK: Oh, sure. I think... I also want to echo thanks, because I think, you sort of put it into context as one of the younger generation, members in the younger generation coming up, what Bill has given us in this last hour and fifteen minutes is quite a gift for everyone else, I think, who partakes of some of this history, which is incredibly valuable. And there are lots of lessons that I think were shared, that it wasn't just his perspective that he has right now. He shared a lot of perspective, as being someone actually your age and actually grappling with these issues in the process of learning and everything out and I think that's -- I would say, yes, it's life lessons, definitely so. And I would also say probably all of us, on behalf of all of us, we still have yet to grow up ourselves, if that's the case. So that comes about because of the fact that Bill shared that process of lifelong learning that I think will be incredibly valuable to preserve. So, just in context, I would say that the Seattle chapter, everyone that Seattle chapter serves, would have a big debt of gratitude for sharing your story.

EK: Absolutely.

KK: Great. So, yeah, Bill.

BT: Thank you. Thank you, Elaine. Thank you, Kyle, very much.