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AT: I think focusing on legislative and systemic things is very important because a lot of times I think we think of activism as being, like, out there protesting and out there being heard. But I think one of the avenues is legislation. And so I think that's very cool that you're part of that process. Is there -- this is a very specific question, but with that -- are there any specific things that you can pinpoint, like legislatively, if that's a word, in that level that you've worked on or that has had an impact in terms of diversity, equity, and inclusion?

JSG: I think... so I have a couple of examples. One is the -- it's perhaps not specific to race or ethnic pieces, but in the hiring process, when you have a... in the application, there's been in the past, in different organizations, where you check the box if you've had some past incarceration, run-in with the law, and it's removing the box on an application, because there's other ways so that you're really opening up the opportunity, and not putting an automatic barrier to people that may have had been incarcerated and had something in their record. Because I think you can still do background checks and reference checks and other things, but that is a barrier that won't even get you in the door. So able to remove that in different organizations is one example of a system change that makes a difference. And I think there's other things like right now, Juneteenth was the history of the Emancipation for slavery was abolished, but that it took years for that to reach the news and people in Texas. And so there's a whole history of June 19th. So that has become a federal paid holiday, a state paid holiday. And at the local government level, local governments make a decision on whether they want to also adopt that. So right now, at the city of Bellevue, that's an example of being able to work on that, to work with the city manager and bring that to the city council to adopt that for the city employees. And that's very significant. It's not... I mean, I'm sure some people say yay, another paid holiday, but it's really the significance of the event. And it's things like that, that are part of the system and the structure where it is... it does take the same energy and tenacity and focus to say, how can I actually make a difference in the structures, the systems, the laws that will live for a long time to come? So there's many different opportunities like that. And, within an organization, it's, there's many things to do and how one does that is really important, because I know, as I mentioned, I don't feel as comfortable. I mean, the manner in which I'd like to make a difference is strategic. It's through diplomacy, it's through education, it's really trying to make changes in a manner where I need to be persuasive and figure out the best mechanism to do that. So I think that will be ongoing within the organization. And then that's an example of the same manner and approach that can be taken within the community and actually bigger than that with the whole world. So I think that's what I continue to learn and always want to figure out how I can make significant changes of that nature that would make a difference. And it does take time, you have to weigh what the different options are for policy changes and who it impacts and then it's the convincing of the powers that be, how can you make the case that it really is beneficial for everybody?

AT: Yeah, thank you for sharing that. I think that's really cool that you're, again, part of that process because I think that's really powerful, especially like the checking the box for whether you've been incarcerated for the job application. Because, I mean, since that disproportionately affects certain people, I think that that's very important. Because, yeah, you've already covered that, but I think that is very cool.

JSG: Thank you. They call it "ban the box" so that, I mean, I think there's a lot of system issues when you think about systemic racism and things that are not conscious. So implicitly, implicit bias are things that are just historically ingrained in the system. So it's very challenging. But if I can make a difference in my field of work on other, like in human resources, there's another system that was instituted with what they call as blind screening. So with the applicants, you don't see their name, you see all their information. So the hiring manager, is again, not facing, not having bias slip in, I mean, clearly, at some point, you need to see the applicants to interview them. But up front is systems like that, structures where you can say that we were not saying like, if you saw my middle name you'd go, oh, that sounds like a Japanese name. So it's really doing the blind screening and then basing it on the qualifications and trying to find ways, are they, are there barriers that one can remove, and then to assist through system change. So I just thought of that other example, and that is in place as well. So real, concrete things. And then when you do something like that, to explain why you're doing it, because people don't understand. If you don't explain, this is the theory behind it. And there's actually studies that have been done. Where if you have... and again, it might be implicit bias where someone might have a bias against women, men, a certain ethnic background, and if they see the name and information, then they might inadvertently disqualify them. So it's another change, and then how do you explain that so that people really understand and embrace that kind of change? And understand, because it is sometimes not clear, like, why are you doing that? [Laughs]

AT: Yeah, I think that's really cool. So these are all in -- this is like being enacted in Bellevue, is that right?

JSG: Bellevue does have that and other organizations as well.

AT: Oh, okay.

JSG: Just giving a human resource example. But those are, I think, really concrete examples of structural changes that can be made and really trying to figure out what is the potential barrier? And then how can we eliminate it or reduce that in a way through the system itself? Rather than try to rely on every individual to? I mean, I think it's hard to figure out how do you address if the concern is implicit bias with candidates based on their name that indicates a race where they might have a bias, how can you do that from a system perspective so it eliminates it for everyone and helps with the structure itself? So there's many, many things to do like that, and it is a process and even to identify what that is takes some time and connecting with other colleagues in the field and that type of work.

AT: I like that outlook of, are there any barriers that we can remove. Because I feel like a lot of the times with that process of hiring people, there's an attitude of what kind of barriers can we impose? Because, I mean, you're trying to screen out people. And so I like the -- your perspective that you're coming from, because that kind of goes against that conventional process of hiring, which is, definitely has its own systemic issues, of course. But yeah, cool.

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