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BS: But you mentioned that there was some tension between other JACL chapters. So, would you imagine that this was the point of contention between younger members and older members just seeing things differently?

HP: I think so.

BS: Okay. In terms of solidarity and that type of thing?

HP: Yeah, I think so. I think you have an older generation that was more, a little more hesitant, that just does advocacy in a different way. They do it quieter, they do it on the back end. It is more, I would say, consensus driven. Right. And for me as a as Xennial, I guess, it's more like having those one-on-one conversations. And sometimes it's... I think what kind of rubs elders a wrong way, too, and that generation when I was talking to them -- because I was talking to people who were in their, like, seventies and eighties at the convention, and they had lived through so much. And I really tried hard not to unintentionally or intentionally disrespect them because they did things a different way. I think that's a problem that we're seeing now. What we're seeing with BLM movement kind of taking off is, you have people who are so pure in their policy stances that they refuse to have any other type of alternative. And that is problematic. That is a losing game. And for us, we knew that, at least with that resolution -- we even had May. I mean May at that time, was still around, and she just she was also pretty progressive. But I remember having a conversation with May about that. I was feeling really frustrated and she was like, "Don't give up. Just keep going. Because you're doing the right thing, it's okay, keep going." And so May had been such a really great supporter along with Arlene Oki, and Bill, and Elaine, of course, too. But I was really touched by Andy Noguchi because Andy actually has a daughter who was adopted from Korea, Annie. And I got to know Annie at convention, and it was... that resolution was a great experience for me, personally, because that's when I really felt seen as a member of the community, just like everyone else. And that's all I have ever wanted in my life, even as a young child, because you stick up so much if you're not white, and you're just in a white ass school all the time. So, to feel seen and accepted, was a really nice validation that I am in the right place. As many times as I've tried to run away from Seattle, I just... I don't know what happens, I just keep coming back.

So, I think it's just JACL is -- I don't know what's happening now, but it's still very, I still feel very much that we are, we're the right JACL, not national. We're older than national, we do a lot more progressive things. We think way more creatively around how we want to steer the chapter, how we want to bring younger folks and make sure that's truly intergenerational. Not that other JACL chapters aren't doing that because Florin and Berkeley are, I'm sure, doing similar work and Detroit as well. I mean, you have these, you have these long-standing institutions. Particularly for me, I always think of Elaine and her work when the murder of Victor Chin had occurred, and she was the president of JACL Detroit. Oh my god. I mean, talk about someone on the front line. Talk about somebody who, a woman in that position. I mean, my god, just incredible. So, you get to learn a lot about how people who are so low key modest about everything that they do, you're just like, Elaine, you were president of JACL chapter in Detroit when that happened. That's amazing. Amazing. So, you get to learn a lot of things from different people. And one of the biggest things that I learned from Elaine is don't take shit from everybody. Don't take shit from anybody. If you really believe that it's the right thing to do, and you can bring people along with you, that's all that kind of matters. People have difference of opinions, and it's okay to have one disagreement on one certain issue but come together on another issue. But it's also really good to kind of note that, right? Note where people are more consistently at your back, and where some people are going to be a little bit more on the fence about things, and where other people are just like, "No, just no, we're not going to do that." So, it was a good learning experience for me.

BS: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

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