<Begin Segment 1>

HH: Today is August 27th, the time now is 5:24, in Medford Leas, New Jersey. What is your full name?

HT: My full name is Hitoshi Thomas Tamaki.

HH: What is the name of our wife?

HT: My wife's name is Marion Tamaki.

HH: Okay. How many siblings do you have?

HT: I have five siblings.

HH: And what are the genders and ages of each?

HT: I have an older sister age seventy-eight, and three other sisters age seventy-five, seventy-three, and seventy-one, and my youngest brother is sixty-eight.

HH: How many children did you have, what are their ages, and what are they doing?

HT: Well, I have four children. The oldest is forty-two, he is a vice-president of marketing and sales with Sybron Chemical in New Jersey. My second son, Greg, is forty-one years of age, and he works for a company called Medpro in Harleysville, Pennsylvania, and he is position as an estimator. And my daughter, Karen, who comes next, is a nurse. She is thirty-nine years old, but now she's a housekeeper since she has three children. And my youngest son is Drew, who is thirty-five years of age, and he works in computers with Vanguard investment firm in Valley Forge.

HH: And what kind of education did your children receive? I think some of those, I mean, the ones that I know, for instance, one daughter's a nurse, probably went to nursing school.

HT: Right.

HH: But then what about the others?

HT: Well, my children went to college. My oldest son, Dwight, completed four years at Bucknell. My number two son, Greg, completed two years of college at Philadelphia textile, and my daughter Karen completed a four-year course in nursing, and my youngest son, Drew, also completed four years of college.

HH: At this point, how many grandchildren do you have?

HT: At this point, I have six grandchildren.

HH: All right. And how do the break down as far as gender is concerned?

HT: My oldest grandchild is seventeen years old. I have a grandson who is Ryan, who is four years of age, and then I have two grandchildren that are two years of age. Russell, who is Karen's son, and Alan, who is Drew's son, they're both two years of age. And then recently my daughter Karen and her husband Phil adopted a child who is six months of age. They adopted this son, Clayton, who was born in Japan, and subsequently she herself became pregnant again and had a baby girl just a month ago. So she has three children.

<End Segment 1> - Copyright © 1994 JACL Philadelphia. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 2>

HH: Okay, where were you born?

HT: I was born in Eatonville, Washington, back in 1917.

HH: Eatonville, Washington. Is that in close proximity of Tacoma?

HT: Eatonville is located, yes, about thirty to thirty-five miles outside of Tacoma. And it used to be an old lumber camp, and presently, I don't think it's even in existence.

HH: Oh, is that right?

HT: Yeah.

HH: That's where you were born, but that's not where you were reared?

HT: No. I was born in Eatonville, Washington, but when I was still a small toddler, my family moved to Tacoma, Washington, where I was really raised, and I attended school in Tacoma, Washington.

HH: I see. What are the names of your parents?

HT: The name of my parents? My father's first name is Seiichi, and my mother's name was Tora Sasaki Tamaki.

HH: I'm going to ask you describe Tacoma as you remember it when you were growing up there. What kind of city was that?

HT: Well, Tacoma, Washington, was an industrial city, logging was probably its main industry. It had a population of approximately a 120,000 or so at the time I was being raised in Tacoma. It was a nice community located on Puget Sound in the state of Washington. I attended grade school, junior high, high school and college in Tacoma.

HH: You went to college in Tacoma, too?

HT: Yes. I attended the College of Puget Sound in Tacoma, now known as University of Puget Sound.

HH: I see. At what point did you go to medical school?

HT: I graduated from College of Puget Sound in 1940, so I left Tacoma in September of 1940 to attend Boston University School of Medicine where I matriculated and completed my medical school in December of 1943.

<End Segment 2> - Copyright © 1994 JACL Philadelphia. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 3>

HH: So it was while you were in medical school that Pearl Harbor took place?

HT: That is correct. Pearl Harbor took place while I was in medical school.

HH: What kind of impact does that make in your life? It probably made a big impact on the rest of the family, but there you were in Boston, how did it affect you?

HT: Well, of course, it was a shocker to me, and I knew subsequently my parents and my family were evacuated from Tacoma, and some of them did go to camp. But being in Boston and attending medical school, I did not experience any problem while attending school. But the one thing that I recall, right after Pearl Harbor, I recall there were two Niseis who were admitted to the freshman class at the Boston University School of Medicine. Well, for some reason, their admission was cancelled. And that bothered me no end, so I did go to see the dean and inquired how come once they were accepted, their acceptance was denied. And he couldn't give me a good answer, and these two friends, one of them I knew quite well, who was from Tacoma, Washington, and they just had to wait two or three more years before they were admitted to medical school. I was afraid that I might even be asked to leave school, but fortunately, I was able to complete my schooling.

HH: During the time after Pearl Harbor, many of the Japanese families had their bank assets and such frozen. Did that affect the financing of your medical school education?

HT: Well, I knew that my father had some money in Japanese banks, but by and large, except for a few loans that I received from my father, I did have a part, a scholarship, tuition scholarship in medical school which helped a lot. And I had some savings from my summer employment back home, so I was able to graduate from medical school without too much outside help.

HH: What kind of summer employment did you have?

HT: Well, during my last year in high school, I believe, and first year in college as I recall, I went up to Alaska to work in a salmon cannery. And you probably do recall that in those days, we made about three hundred dollars a summer, and that was big money. I still recall to this day, when we used to work overtime in the salmon cannery for twenty-five cents an hour, and we were glad to earn that.

HH: I see, so you did that for two summers.

HT: I did, yes. And of course that helped to pay my college tuition, which was quite reasonable at that time. And since I went to college in my hometown, I was able to commute to college, and I had no living expense to speak of.

<End Segment 3> - Copyright © 1994 JACL Philadelphia. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 4>

HH: At this point, you were finishing your medical education in Boston.

HT: Yes.

HH: Your family was in the various concentration camps.

HT: Yes. My parents and my youngest son, youngest brother, were in Minidoka.

HH: So you were kind of spread out across the country.

HT: Right.

HH: Did you people ever try to reunite as a family or did you stay separate?

HT: Well, for several years we were separated because they all went their separate ways. I know my sister Shigeko, the oldest, was in Seattle, but she moved directly to Washington, D.C. since she was working for the U.S. government. So she did not go to camp. My parents went to Minidoka and my youngest brother, as I mentioned, my sisters were in Tule Lake for a while but they went directly to St. Louis, Missouri, where my three sisters were together for a while. And eventually, they came out to Philadelphia. One thing I might mention, while I was in medical school, you did ask me whether I had any unpleasant experience. I know during my second year, the army, U.S. Army started what was called the army medical training program and practically every student at every medical school in the country was in this program. Except in our medical school class, I was the only one exempted along with one other who had physical disability. And that bothered me no end because when the army started this medical training program, they paid for all the tuition expenses. And then upon graduation, they were commissioned as first lieutenant in the U.S. Army, and they were to spend at least two years in the army. And I naturally wanted to be included. So when I found out I was not included, I took a trip down to the Pentagon to see why I was being exempted. And I still recall vividly when I went to the Pentagon, I was taken from one office to the next starting with a captain, went up to a major, lieutenant colonel, and finally I saw about three colonels, none of whom of course could give me a satisfactory answer. And I finally a colonel who was supposed to be in charge of the whole program, and they had a big book that must have measured three or four inches. He was fingering through this book saying, "It's got to be in here someplace why you're exempted." Naturally, he didn't find anything. And that didn't satisfy me, so after a few more weeks, I took another trip to the Pentagon and I could ill afford the trip. But I was determined to find out why I was being exempted, and I wanted to find out from someone in authority. But even my second trip to the Pentagon where I spent a good deal of time, I did not receive a satisfactory answer. And one colonel did ask me would I, he would be willing to write me a letter that I did appear to inquire. But I didn't think that would help me any so I did not accept the letter. But I sort of wished I had. But I still came across the list of the names of the captains and the majors and the colonels that I saw at the Pentagon at that time. But that was one experience in medical school that was a bad experience for me. In fact, at graduation, I was not permitted to graduate with the rest of the class. Well, I was able to graduate, but I was not able to graduate in the army uniform where all the other male classmates were in the army. So I recall, I decided not to even attend the graduation and I left early to go to my internship. And on my way to the internship, I did stop in Minidoka to visit my folks for one day. And I made sure they wouldn't keep me there, so I left there and went to Cleveland for my internship.

HH: By the way, where was your internship?

HT: It was in Cleveland at Mt. Sinai Hospital, and that was right during the middle of the war. And the chief resident approached me the very first day and asked me if I should encounter any problem, any bad experience with any patient, to let him know. Well, this is the honest truth. All during my internship and residency, I did not encounter one unhappy or bad experience with any patient.

HH: If you will, speculate for a moment what your life would have been like if there had not been a war? You probably still would have gone to medical school at BU because that's where you were at the beginning of the war anyway. Other than that, what kinds of differences might have made to you had there not been a Pearl Harbor?

HT: Well, the question you're asking is have I ever speculated as to what might have happened to my life if there was no Pearl Harbor and no war subsequently? Well, I wondered about that many times myself. In all probability, after graduation from medical school, I would have gone back to Tacoma or Seattle area to practice. But naturally, upon my graduation, the West Coast was completely closed, I could not go back home. And it wasn't until the latter part of my residency that people were able to go back to their home. So by then, I was, I guess you'd call it an "Easterner," and I had no intention of going back to my hometown. Once I completed my residency at Jefferson Medical College in Philadelphia, I obtained a position at Montgomery Hospital in Norristown as Director of Pathology, and I've been there for forty-six years and I just retired recently.

<End Segment 4> - Copyright © 1994 JACL Philadelphia. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 5>

HH: At what point in your life did you meet and subsequently marry Marion?

HT: Well, when did I meet my spouse Marion? It was during my medical school. I used to go down to New York City to look up my friends during the holidays. And one of my friends used to know Marion, and we went up to visit her. And it was like a meeting place of a lot of Niseis from the West Coast, because her mother used to have Sunday dinner for a lot of the visitors at her home. So one thing led to another, I guess. Although for a period of time after I left Boston and went to Cleveland and then subsequently to Pittsburgh, I did lose contact with her except for Christmas cards. But once I came back to Philadelphia in 1944, I believe, I did go up to New York again and resumed our friendship. And finally we started to date regularly and we were married in 1951.

HH: I see. So her home is New York City?

HT: Yes. She was actually born in Greenwich, Connecticut. Marion was born in Greenwich, Connecticut, but she was raised in New York City, yes.

HH: I see. And all your children were born in Montgomery County?

HT: Yes, all my children were born in Montgomery County, either in the Collegeville area or in Norristown.

HH: Was it a hard decision for you to make to locate yourself and practice medicine in Philadelphia?

HT: Well, the question is, did I encounter any problem locating myself in the Philadelphia area to practice? It so happened that when I was still in my senior year in residency at Jefferson Medical College, there was a search committee at the Montgomery Hospital in Norristown looking for a pathologist to become the director of the director of the department. And the chief of pathology at Jefferson at the time was a Dr. Booker who accepted a call from one member of the search committee who was a graduate of Jefferson Medical College. And upon his inquiry, Dr. Booker said, "I've got just the man for you." [Laughs] And I was a senior resident at the time, and I did go out to Montgomery Hospital. I liked the hospital, I liked the community, and before I left, I had the position. It was just one brief interview with the member of the executive committee of the hospital, medical hospital board. So my first six months, well, my last six months of my residency, I commuted between Norristown and Jefferson spending my mornings at the hospital and the afternoon at Jefferson, and my chief was good enough to let me do this. So I did start my full-time position at Montgomery Hospital in November of 1947. So as I said earlier, I've been there for forty-six years and just retired last October.

HH: That's impressive. So you were there virtually for your entire medical career after your residency.

HT: Yes, I was there, that's a little unusual, you're right. Because some do a hop, skip and around the country, but as I said, I guess I must have done a pretty good job, and the hospital was good to me and I feel I was good to the hospital. So I had the longevity, you might say, at the institution. But there was one period where I almost left. Since I was offered a position of Professor of Pathology at Hahnemann, after my first four or five years at Montgomery, but I chose not to accept that position. And subsequently, after the war, the Atomic Bomb Commission in Japan was looking for a pathologist, a Nisei preferably, who spoke Japanese and who was interested in hematology. And I fitted the bill because my interest was in hematology, I spoke Japanese, and I was a pathologist. And the Atomic Bomb Commission corresponded with me for a number of months trying to talk me into going to Japan for at least two years. But here again, if I left, I had no idea that I would be able to come back to my same position after an absence of two years. And then that wasn't too long after I was married, so I thought it would be better not to accept the position, but I did consider it seriously.

HH: Do you know whether your children experienced any kind of racism while they were growing up in Montgomery County?

HT: The question is, did my children experience any racism while they were growing up and attending school in Montgomery County. I'd have to say no to that question because I don't recall of any incidents unless it was something minor that they did tell us. But my children, of course, attended, for the most part, a colonial school system in Plymouth Township outside of Norristown, and they all attended school there. And to my knowledge, I do not believe they had any bad experiences that you can call racism.

HH: Is there any, what kind of reaction did you feel to the expression "model minority"? It's a� label that's often used to describe Asian Americans.

HT: The question is how do I react to the Asian Americans being considered as "model minority"? Are you saying Asian as a whole or Japanese?

HH: No, Asians. The term is used to embrace the Asians.

HT: Well, I suppose the term is quite accurate, because in general, the Asian Americans are basically "model minorities." I don't think they get into trouble very much, and they respect the law. They seldom get into a problem with the police, and for the most part, I think they are all honest, upright citizens. So I think the term is quite fitting.

<End Segment 5> - Copyright © 1994 JACL Philadelphia. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 6>

HH: Can you think of any specific practices, values, that you have? Your taste in art, religion, the way you decorate your home, that could be traced to your Japanese heritage?

HT: The question is, are there things in our life and our home that could be traced to Japanese heritage?

HH: Values and practices?

HT: Yes, I think so. Because in our home, although my wife is not, my wife's father is Japanese but her mother was Caucasian, but she did retain a good deal of Japanese culture also. And so in our home, we do have a good many Japanese paintings, dolls. We even have a Japanese teahouse, you might say, which is authentic Japanese made up of tatami floors and shoji doors, that I think you've seen. And a lot of our hakujin as well as Japanese visitors have remarked about the number of Japanese items in our house. We did try to teach our children some Japanese culture, but I don't think we were very successful, particularly in the way of speaking and reading Japanese. We tried to teach them Japanese when they were growing up in grade school, I even hired a Japanese student from University of Penn to come up to our house every Saturday morning to teach them with basic Japanese textbooks and so forth. But they didn't care for it very much. But after about a year, they gave it up completely. And I do recall that even when they were growing up, I used to sing Japanese songs to them. But they would put their hands over their ears, they just didn't like the sound of it. So I don't believe we were too successful in imbuing them with Japanese language or Japanese culture to any extent.

<End Segment 6> - Copyright © 1994 JACL Philadelphia. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 7>

HH: This brings us to the end of my series of questions, but this is something that you have a chance to say something here. We don't know who's going to be watching or viewing these tapes one day, and is there anything that you would like to say to future researchers or other people who will be, for whatever reason, looking at these tapes?

HT: Well, one thing that I noticed, even when I was in high school, in terms of how most Niseis reacted in school, I'm sure you have experienced this yourself where, in high school, I recall most of my Nisei friends used to congregate together and eat lunch together. Whereas I made it a point to eat lunch with my hakujin friends, and I couldn't understand why my other Japanese Nisei friends didn't do the same. It wasn't that I was purposely avoiding them, no end, because we always went to Japanese school together right after the regular school. But most Niseis seemed to me quite cliquish. And this may not be true with Sanseis, but I felt that when I was growing up, most Niseis were sort of laid back, and a good many of them did not assert themselves. And I myself liked to assert myself when I needed to assert myself. Otherwise, people would walk all over you. And that was one thing that I still recalled during my childhood, that most Niseis were too passive and did not assert themselves, I didn't think, when they needed to. So that's one thing that I do recall. But today, maybe the Sanseis are a little different, and a good many of them, I know, are quite outspoken and quite different from the Niseis as a whole.

HH: Thank you very much. Thank you, your story is different from a lot of the other ones we've had today.

HT: Probably a little different My story may be a little different inasmuch as I did not go to camp.

<End Segment 7> - Copyright © 1994 JACL Philadelphia. All Rights Reserved.