<Begin Segment 1>

RB: For the purpose of the recording, my name is Rob Buscher, we are recording on Monday, May 15, 2023. Can you please state your name for the camera?

LR: Sure, my name is Lucas Rotman.

RB: And what generation would you describe yourself as?

LR: I would be Yonsei.

RB: Great. Right, so as I mentioned, we're gonna jump back into some of the biographical stuff later, but at this point, I'd love to actually drill down into what you remember from your time working at Shofuso?

LR: Working at Shofuso, yeah.

RB: And maybe start by sharing how were you first introduced to Shofuso?

LR: Oh, that was my grandma, Louise Maehara, who was involved with the Japanese House and Garden for, pretty much for her whole life. And you know, it was always a place that was spoken of with great reverence. It always had a mythology for me, you know what I mean? I didn't know very much about the history of it, but it just came up in conversation so much and I just saw photographs and I got to visit it sometimes, so it just held a place of magic within me. So I always... it was always a place that was on my radar, and it was always a place that was almost otherworldly to me. So when my grandma at one point was very concerned about my real big disconnect with anything Japanese, and I grew up in a neighborhood that was mostly African American. I wasn't... I didn't experience, other than when I started going to Yellow Seeds with Mom, I started being around more Asian people, but I wasn't around any Japanese people. The Asians that I was around were mostly Chinese, the kids I went to school with and things like that. So I didn't have very much Japanese culture in my life, so I think it was important for Grandma that I have that experience. And I really think that it was Grandma who's sort of like, finagled me, because I didn't have any skills that would, you guys probably have. I didn't have any knowledge of Japanese culture or architecture or anything like that, or even language knowledge. So I'm sure it was just pure nepotism. [Laughs] But I have such fond memories of working there, and of my time spent, I must have spent maybe three or four different seasons working as a guide there. And at the time, the pay was pretty good for that kind of a job, so it was actually a well-paid summer, spring/summer kind of gig that just worked really well. And there were always people from all over the world coming there, and beautiful women who you would get to meet and talk to, and it was just a beautiful space. But I think I remember most was the women, the Japanese women like Michiko who would, who just kind of took care of me and took me under their wing, and they were Japanese women who were from Japan, they mostly married, I think most of them were married to American husbands, and they just were, so they were very knowledgeable about Japanese culture and tea ceremony and about the house and its history. And so they took it upon themselves to attempt to educate me in a more grounded awareness of the house, and the house's history in the context of Japanese culture.

I remember also a young woman who was a student, she was a Japanese student from, I can't remember where, but her name was Junko, and she also was, it was her mission to get me to behave more Japanese-like. So when I was not using my chopsticks right, Junko would be sort of like, on my case about how I wasn't using it appropriately. Or if I was wearing my happi coat wrong or tied wrong or something, she would always correct me. It was like an annoying older sister. [Laughs] I remember yelling at her, "Leave me alone, leave me alone!" But it was, all came from a place of love, and I always loved that.

And I remember, it was also the first time I really got a chance to work with kids. That was one of the things that a lot of the other guys didn't enjoy doing so much, and it was the first opportunity that I got to work with large groups of schoolchildren. And up to that point, I hadn't really done anything, I hadn't worked with kids at all, and so it was my first opportunity, and I would always volunteer to do the young kids, when everybody else was like, "Lucas will take it." [Laughs] And I actually found that I actually had a facility for talking to young kids. I actually think that Japanese House and Garden also helped me to develop what would become my career in working with children, because that's where I first started doing it.

RB: That's an amazing takeaway, to be able to find the passion of yours from that.

LR: Yeah, for sure.

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<Begin Segment 2>

RB: I'm kind of curious, so what ages were you when you worked there, and what was the date range?

LR: Oh, geez, good question. I think that I was in my... I must have been there, maybe from nineteen, and I think I went back and forth working there for at least three or four years. Well, maybe three years, must have been 'til I was in my early twenties at least, at least until I was about twenty-two. And I remember it was, also the other thing that was really great was it was a great rapport amongst the young folks that worked there, too. So there were other folks who were, like me, students or just out of school. And we would sort of gather together and go out and do stuff socially as well. So it was a really nice group of people who worked there. And I also learned... many of them were not Asian, so it was kind of like a real mixed group of people. I remember there was an African American, young African American woman working there, there was a guy, I can't remember his name, but he was a white guy, spoke fluent Japanese, it was just really incredible, he would blow everybody's mind. And there was a young woman there who was an art student, yeah, there was just really great people to hang out with and be around. And so there was that, and then there was the... it was located within that horticultural center. And I was also friendly with the folks who worked over at the horticultural center as well. So there was a great rapport with them, too, so it was just like this whole, it was like my whole social world just opened up because of Japanese House and Garden. So it was really a very, I really have very fond, fond memories of being there. And I remember sort of like... and there was something about, I would follow, I remember the process, I would sort of follow Michiko or Taiko-san around and listen to their tours. And they said, "Just follow around, take some notes, and just sort of listen in, and I would sort of follow them around. And then they started me off slow just working with tourists who came in individually, and then after a while, I started taking groups of people as I got better at understanding things. So they also taught me little things like how to be a guest at a tea ceremony, I did some origami. Yeah, the whole process of the making of the tea and all that, that was really wonderful. And I love the Obon festivals and all that came up, and was just really... I loved going there. It was probably, at that time, I was not a person who liked to work. [Laughs] I did not like to work, I did not like having a job, but I don't think there was ever a time that I did not want to go to the Japanese House and Garden.

RB: So this was in the 1980s?

LR: Yeah.

RB: Do you have a sense, was it in the late '80s?

LR: I would say it would probably be mid, probably mid to... early to mid? I don't know if that makes sense.

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<Begin Segment 3>

RB: What was Philadelphia like at that time, and also the neighborhood in particular?

LR: It was, I remember being sort of working class, African American community mostly. I remember those big old houses on, was that Parkside, Avenue, and they were just grand old places. I just remember sort of like walking around the neighborhood and just going, "Wow." Philadelphia was going through some, like most urban centers, was going through a lot of blight, there was a lot of poverty and the effects of racism and discrimination and redlining. So the neighborhoods were very, very segregated, so I remember that came into play at the Japanese House and Garden sometimes, too. I remember there were loads of kids who would sort of be very curious about the house from the neighborhood, and they would kind of sneak through the fences and gather around the house, and sometimes they could be destructive. And I remember there was another young woman, she was also biracial like me. I remember her name being Rachael, I don't remember her last name. And she and I got together and we said, what's the best way to deal with it? Because you were talking about the relationship with the city, the city did nothing. They had one security guy who secured the whole area, and he was terrible. He could care less. And so we were like, "What are we gonna do?" She said, "Why don't we go talk to them?" Let's just talk to them. So we would go out, and when we saw the kids climbing over trying to catch the fish in the pond, they put their hands in, they said, "Hey, stop." And we'd say, "Hey, let me tell you a little bit about the fish and why they're important, why you should not try to take them out of the water." And then we would have conversations with them and then maybe they would come back and we would see them, instead of chasing them away, we started trying to just take them around informally with the hope that they would tell their friends, "Hey, this was a real special kind of place." And so that was our goal, was to let the neighborhood kids see it was kind of special. Because it was kind of understandable, their curiosity, it was a beautiful place. And so I sort of remembered, that was one of the things that I felt the best about, was sort of like that relationship with some of the neighborhood kids who'd come back. I remember one time, one kid brought his family. [Laughs] He brought his family and we just took the family around and we let them come in for free and just sort of looked around the place. I remember feeling really good about that. Yeah, but at the same time, it was also, there was vandalism and I remember at least two instances of vandalism similar to what... I don't remember the exact years, but I remember at least two times when the place was vandalized. And one involved some sort of fire.

RB: The audience at this time, would you say it was a good mix of the demographics of Philadelphia that was actually coming to the House?

LR: I'm not sure. Yes, actually, yes. They had these trolleys that would go to all the historic houses. And it was not a trolley but it was like a bus that was done up to look like a trolley. And they would do these tours through all the houses, and the Japanese House and Garden was probably the most popular one, so you'd get a lot of people, a lot of out of towners, a lot of folks from different countries, a lot of folks from different parts of Philadelphia as well. So, yes, you got a lot of different kinds of folks coming through. You've got a lot of students, you had a lot of the art schools would come through as well, because they might be doing a unit on Japanese architecture, things like that. So yeah, there was a lot of different kinds of, lot of different kinds of folks coming through. And I remember a lot of tourists coming, international tourists, actually, lot of Europeans would come through, and there were a lot of Japanese folks who would come through as well.

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<Begin Segment 4>

RB: So on that note, Philadelphia doesn't have a very large Japanese or Japanese American community per capita, but obviously this was a very significant place in terms of the Japanese American community, especially in the time that you were working there. In your time, and I guess in your own understanding of the space, did it feel like a Japanese American community space to you?

LR: You know, in a very informal kind of way, because it was... obviously folks like my grandma and the other folks within the Japanese American community of that age, sort of like really gravitated towards it. There weren't a whole hell of a lot of options outside of the JACL, a few functions that they would have here and there, there wasn't a whole lot going on. And this was sort of like the one place that people could really be involved with, and that's why you saw people like my grandmother and the other folks who would come there and be involved, and the board would be involved in the cleanups and the gatherings, the Obon festivals and all that. And I was always amazed that, sort of like my grandma who, you know, I just know as my grandma, she's just my grandma. But when my grandma would come, suddenly everybody would snap to attention. They� were like, "Louise is coming." I was like, "Yeah, so what? So Louise is coming, what's the big deal?" They said, "Lucas, get out the duster now, now. There's cobwebs up there above the [inaudible]. Get that." And, "I want you to wipe down the veranda." And the tatami needs to be wiped, and I remember there was something about using milk or something like that, and I remember having to have this milky substance, and I had to wipe down the tatami mats, I think. And I just sort of remembered, it was such a big deal when my grandma came. And it until sometime afterwards I sort of realized that she had such an important role to play, and that all the Japanese women especially who worked there had a great deal of admiration and respect for what she did. And even to her later years, I remember that she would be in the garden weeding. [Laughs] Stooped down and weeding, she was respected greatly at that place. And I even remember a couple of times when I was being lazy or not doing what I was supposed to do, Michiko might say, "I'm going to tell your grandma." [Laughs] "I'm going to you tell your grandma that you're not doing what you're supposed to be doing," I was like, "Okay." So yes, I do think that, I don't remember ever having any official place, but it definitely held a very unofficial place in the lives of so many folks. I mean, these weren't people that I saw any other time. Even when my grandma passed away, and to sort of see all these faces again, just was so wonderful to have that experience to see all these people who valued my grandmother's good time and energy that she put into everything.

RB: There's a couple things that I want to cover here. One, I'm wondering if you might be able to recount your memories of the roofers coming to visit. You were around at that time?

LR: I don't know.

RB: No, you were probably living in New York already?

LR: I don't know that I was around during that time. Mostly I just heard from other people. I just heard the stories from, Grandma would tell stories about, you know, coming and bringing food to them. I forget where, there was some special place where they put them up, I can't even remember where it was, and people going over to make sure that they were being cared for. And I remember them describing some of the work that was done. They would have handfuls of bark, and these wooden mallet kind of things, and they put these little pegs in and people were sort of describing this work and how they would be up on the roof putting this in. And I remember talking about that in the tours as well, based on what people had told me. But I did not get a chance to actually witness that, but it was considered a very important event in the time that I was working there.

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<Begin Segment 5>

RB: And one of the things that you were mentioning before about the community events that took place there at Shofuso, particularly Obon and the summer festival, can you share any other specific details? What kinds of entertainment was done and who from the community came out?

LR: I remember the dances. I remember that was really a highlight for me. They would do the summer dances with the fans, and I sort of remember somebody grabbing me out to try to teach me how to do the dance, and going back and forth, going back. And I just thought that was really so cool, like all the people who were actually working there, they all kind of grabbed us and had us join in so that we would learn how to do the dancing, and that was really a whole lot of fun. I also remember just the food itself was just incredible, it was just so good. I think that was one of the things I really looked forward to, just sort of with the food. Oh, I also remember it was the first time I saw taiko drumming. I'd never seen that before, I don't know which group it was, but I was just mesmerized by the taiko drumming. I had never seen anything quite like that before. And I was just sort of like, "What is that?" And I just thought it was so cool.

RB: Do you know, was the food cooked on site for those festivals?

LR: No, definitely was not. It was brought in. It was just like my grandmother and I think everybody did it. I think everybody just prepared things in advance and I brought them in. I don't remember much food prep going on.

RB: Did they sell, like, bento boxes?

LR: Yeah, that was my favorite, it was the bento boxes. And I'm trying to remember, did they have... no, they didn't. At one point I thought I remembered somebody actually making sushi there, but I don't know actually know, that's from someplace else. But things were pretty much set up. I remember them selling objects, too, sort of like small trinkety sorts of little small Japanese trinket kind of things that they would sell. People would... Grandma would donate things all the time that they would sell to raise money. Yeah, the music really stuck with me. Music and food really stuck with me. And just the vibe, there was just a generally very happy, welcoming vibe to it that I really enjoyed.

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<Begin Segment 6>

RB: So I want to talk about this time period a little bit, because it's sort of just for a broader community history, a really interesting time period, the 1980s, the U.S.-Japan trade wars happening, they're sort of the anti-Japanese, Japan-bashing in the news, Vincent Chin was killed at the start of the '80s, throughout the '80s, the redress movement's happening, finally signed into law, the 1988 Civil Liberties Act. And I'm just curious, was any of this being discussed within the context of the people who were working on the site, was there a sense of racial consciousness in any of this?

LR: I think there were a couple people... Mom, do you remember the name of the guy who was in Yellow Seeds? Miyasha's ex-husband?

RB: Jim?

LR: Yeah.

RB: Not that Jim, Paul.

LR: Yeah, Paul, sorry, Paul. Yeah, I mean, Paul was around during those times, you know what I mean? And he was very, very active in Yellow Seeds and with all of the things that you're talking about. Yeah, so you know, I remember actually� talking to him about some of these issues way back then. But on the whole, I would say that, no, it was not a political space from what I could see. Obviously, I wasn't there all the time, but it seemed to be more of a cultural sort of a space. And it almost felt like... to be honest with you, it almost felt like... because I remember talking politics at the Japanese House, because I tended to do that, it was the '80s and everything like that. And it just was not something that people wanted to hear. I never got the sense that people wanted to hear these discussions about race, and things did come up. We were in a Black community and we had to deal with the fact that here we are in this community, and how do we interact with the community? And there was some people who wanted us to chase away the kids, you know what I mean, rather than to try to engage them. And there was, even amongst these staff members who I loved very dearly, there was a lot of anti-Blackness, anti-Black racism. I remember having discussions with one person who... I don't want to name her name because I believe she's still alive, but I had some of my neighborhood friends who were Black, sort of come and visit, and she was not happy that I brought them. She was very upset, and when I sort of asked why, it became very prevalent that it was because of the color of their skin. And I remember that... I remember being very angry about that and trying to have a discussion about that, but it never went very far.

And I also remember there was this weird thing that would happen, being biracial, and not necessarily presenting as Asian. There was this weird thing that would sort of happen, and this was mostly with the white folks who would come, is sort of like there was this idea that, "Well, you don't speak Japanese?" I said, "Well, I can speak some things that people taught me here." "Well, you should be fluent." "You should be this and you should go marry a Japanese woman and go live in Japan." And I said, "What are you?" [Laughs] "Oh, do you speak fluent Italian?" [Laughs] "Oh, how's your Gaelic?" I remember these kind of conversations with people who just assumed that without having any understanding of, I would try to explain, "Well, Japanese American, that's a very specific kind of experience." There was no conversation around, or interest around the internment. Because Mom and Dad made it very clear to me what happened to Japanese Americans, just in the same way my dad made it very clear to me what happened to Jews during the Holocaust. They were very open from a very early age, and I always felt very comfortable speaking about these issues. But I noticed at the Japanese House and Garden, was not a place where people were very open to talk about these issues. I even remember having an argument one time with, they ended up hiring, for some reason, I never knew why. There was a white woman that ended up working, she kind of was mostly a ticket person. She didn't take tours around, but I think they were kind of forced to, they were trying to get rid of her from the horticultural center, and she was just horrible. She even made racist comments about Japanese people. She even made comments about trying to say that, oh, the internment was justified. And I'm sort of like, "Why is this person working here? You shouldn't even be working here." And I never quite understood why somebody who held such beliefs... and not willing to even engage with a discussion, but who held such obviously racist beliefs, was allowed to sort of like be front and center at the House and Garden. So those things happened at a very different level, so I never really understood, but it was pretty clear to me that there was not -- that that was just not something that you really talked about.

RB: Thanks for sharing that, and I guess it makes me think about, in general, it's distinction between being Japanese and Japanese American. And I'm sort of curious how intentional was that distinction being made from other people within this organization? It sounds like you, as yourself, have the ability to have conversations like that from people in Louise's generation, for example, or some of the other Japanese and Japanese American community leaders.

LR: Yeah, it's hard to say. I was a lot younger then and I sort of I thought I knew everything, too. [Laughs] But yeah, I don't feel as though distinctions were necessarily... distinctions were apparent. It was apparent when the Japanese American folks came in and sort of did stuff, and it was apparent when the Japanese folks were here, you know what I mean? Especially ones who were helping out at the House. It was clear that there was a demarcation, but it was very unspoken. I think that there was a sense on the part of the older Japanese American generation, folks like my grandmother, there was a little bit of... how should we say? Insecurity around the Japanese-Japanese. Because their Japanese wasn't necessarily very fluent, and their understanding of culture could be sporadic at best. And so I think that those, that existed but it went unspoken. I don't remember anybody ever really addressing those issues. You know, and even being biracial, there were at least two of us there who were. The other person, "Young Reiko," we called her Young Reiko, I never knew her last name. But she was, I think her mother was actually Japanese, so she was much more incorporated into the Japanese culture. It was easier for her to be considered like one of the ladies, you know what I mean? For me it was much harder just because I look the way I look, and also because my knowledge basis of Japanese culture was, I didn't have a whole heck of a lot. And so I think it was a little easier for Younger Reiko. And Younger Reiko also put a lot more effort, from an earlier age, to learn, make that a part of who she was. And for me, I probably spent most of my time trying to be Black like the kids in my neighborhood. [Laughs]

But I do really remember, there was one... oh, my god, this was very typical. This is something that I experienced a lot. So there was a lot of professors who would come and give lectures and things like that, and there was this one older guy, I don't remember if he came from the Academy of Fine Arts or where, Philadelphia Museum of Art, I don't remember. But the guy would have a whole slew of students around him, and would say, "Oh, yeah, take me on a tour," and I'd be like, "Oh, god, again." I was like, "Why do you want me to take you on a tour? You know more than me." "Oh, no, no, I'm not going to say anything." And so as soon as I started saying, giving my tour, he would contradict everything that I said. [Laughs] He would just say, "Well, what he means to say is..." and I would say, "Why am I giving the story? You obviously know everything." But it was full of people that often were these folks, white folks who sort of knew everything about what it is to be Japanese. They just knew everything about what it was to like Japanese culture, blah, blah, and they could tell you everything. So there were a lot of folks like that who sort of came, and those were the ones who annoyed me the absolute most. [Laughs] And so this guy had to make a point of showing how little I knew, you know what I mean, in front of all his students and how much he knew. But that was kind of like a constant thing where people were just, knew everything, what it was to be Japanese, yet knew nothing about when you talk to them about, "Oh, you know about my family history and the internment?" and they couldn't care less about that. All they cared about was the "exotic" Japanese culture, the "real Japanese," the "real Japan" that they had experienced when they had gone over there.

RB: I think that's still relatable, actually, to some experiences.

LR: [Laughs] It's probably that same guy.

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<Begin Segment 7>

RB: And I think... I've sort of addressed this in other questions, but I'm just wondering, as you describe the different people that were kind of part of the staff as well as the board of the Friends of the House and Garden, it's clear that they all came from different backgrounds, and probably had different reasons for doing the work that they were doing there. And I'm just curious, I know you would be guessing, but could you maybe provide some thoughts around what was driving different groups of people?

LR: In terms of leadership?

RB: In terms of leadership, and why were they doing what they were doing?

LR: When I was there, the guy who was heading it up, what the heck? He was an academic. He was an academic who, he was Caucasian, he was an academic who had spent time in Japan, was very knowledgeable about Japanese art and culture. His focus was definitely on presenting Japanese culture to the community and sort of trying to maintain the house in the most authentic possible way that you could maintain it. That was his focus. And to be honest with you, that seemed to be where everybody was at. I mean, you're the first person that I know who's talked about what did this mean for Japanese American people? What does this mean for people in the community? That's when I heard that you were doing, having those conversations, I was fascinated because it was not something that was ever touched upon, despite the fact that there were so many Japanese Americans who were making sure that this place ran, functioned. It was just sort of like the experience that mattered was the pure Japanese experience, and that's what we were very... that's what folks were very interested in, and I can't remember ever once, unless I interjected something about my experience being Japanese American background. I don't remember anybody ever asking me or showing any interest in that sort of thing, Paul, maybe. But then those were mostly conversations that I had just one-off, you know what I mean? It was just me and him, sort of like having those conversations, but no, it just was not a part of the dialogue or the conversation in any way that I can remember.

RB: That's great, that's helpful. I think I'm mostly through my questions on Shofuso unless you have any?

LG: You know, in the last interview you did mention maybe some discrimination or racist encounters. Were there anything, at least specifically tied to Shofuso beyond the stories you shared?

LR: Yeah, I think I mostly covered it. I would say it was definitely, there definitely was... my experience with it was different. I'm coming at it from the story of a hapa, you know what I mean? So it was the experience of, "You're just not Japanese enough." [Laughs] "You're just not." "You're not the real thing. Can we get one of those other tour guides that are the real Japanese? We want the real..." I always felt as though that's what they wanted. They had to have the real Japanese person to take around. So I mean, it actually made me focus in more on my tour and make sure that I did a really great job with my tours, and made sure that I knew -- back then, not now, but back then I knew the House really, really well, because I was always getting quizzed by people who thought I wasn't Japanese enough that I was lying to them. So I don't know, was that a micro-aggression? Or maybe there's no such thing as a micro-aggression, I don't know. But I sort of remembered that being... and I loved working with the kids because the kids never asked. The kids were just sort of like, wow, that's so cool. [Laughs] And if I brought anything in, like I brought, I think I was doing some stuff with silkworms, and I would bring in silkworms, and I would bring in silkworms and silkworm cocoons and things like that, and you're like, "Wow, that's so cool." That's what I loved working with the kids, you never got any of that kind of stuff from them, but I just sort of remember constantly feeling like this is not, I'm just never going to be Japanese enough for them, because of the way I looked, because of the way I grew up. So that was a big thing for me.

And then just sort of... I always felt as though the Japanese in the House and Garden was a victim of a different kind of racism, I mean, in the sense that it just, nobody cared about it. Like the city didn't give too, it didn't give a rat's ass about it. I mean, to have one security guy for this whole area, and they loved to be able to say that they had, "Oh, look, we have this Japanese..." they didn't do anything to fund it. All this funding came from Japanese Americans or it came from the Japan-America Society from museum folks, it came from fundraising. But the city invested absolutely nothing and I don't know why. I realize that it was not easy times for the city, but they certainly had plenty of money to fund other stupid nonsense. So in a sense, in a broader sense, I think it was the victim of the Asian invisibility. And I certainly don't think that anybody really put any care into us sort of thinking about all these Japanese American folks who put their lives into trying to, every time it got trashed, rebuilding it every time, just like they do now. I don't think anybody put any thought into all that hard work that people like my grandmother and so many other people put into the place.

And then there was the stuff with the community. But I always felt as though things going on in the community, I was never sure who actually torched the Japanese House and Garden. Was it somebody, some kids playing around? Was it somebody else, was it white supremacists? We never knew. So that larger issue of racism was always there. [Laughs] The one place, and I'm curious as to whether or not that still exists, but I remember you would get a whole lot of crap from people because you asked them to take off their shoes. [Laughs] And people would just freak out because you were asking them to take off their shoes, and say, "Hey, you want the Japanese experience? I'm giving it to you, man." [Laughs] "Here you go, take off those shoes and put these on." I remember that was an area of stress, and it was always better when the Japanese ladies said it to them. When the Japanese ladies said it to them, it was sort of like, "Oh, okay, if they're telling us that, then it must be true." [Laughs] Whereas with the kids, they just loved it. They were like, "Oh, I can take off my shoes? This is awesome. Oh, this feels so good on my feet," blah, blah, blah.

RB: Great.

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RB: Yeah, I just think I have one more question and then I think we're just about at time. I guess just having, remembered so much about the time there, your family's time there, throughout the course of this morning, this is just circumspection on your account, but what do you think it meant for Louise to be involved in this space, specifically?

LR: Yeah, I think that... I think it must have been just so essential for her. One of the things about Grandma that I remember is one of the reasons I had a hard time letting you part with the House, even though you needed to, was just Grandma had a certain aesthetic. She didn't have loads of money, but to afford a whole bunch of beautiful, fancy things, even the Nakashima that we have is sort of like not your top end Nakashima. It's not made of the top end woods. But she would go out of her way to get this kind of furniture. She would go out of her way to design the house with the tokunoma. And these projects went on for years and year and years. She got a gardener to come in and put in a garden in her backyard. I mean, this aesthetic was just so important to her being, it was just so much a part, and I never really appreciate it. Growing up, it wasn't 'til much later, but that I sort of really saw how she would see things at the Japanese House and Garden being done, and then she wanted to do it in house. She got such pleasure from design of things, from the aesthetic, from the Japanese aesthetic of that time period. It influenced the way she... even the way she dressed. Like she had a really unique style of dressing, I was sort of like, oh, that's just Grandma. Everybody says, "Your grandma cool, man. She dresses real nice." "That's just the way she dresses." But she had a certain flair that was kind of Japanese but kind of not. It was something that was totally unique. And as I get older, especially as I've been starting to do more music stuff, I sort of, I'm just finding all these things about my grandma that I just admire. Me, I'm kind of just dressed like this all the time, and I'm sort of like, "Damn, my grandma, she always had style up to her day she died. She always had flair. I need to have more flair in the way I dress," and I started thinking about that kind of stuff. And about having beautiful, not necessarily expensive things, but having things of importance and beauty around you, how you can express culture in that way. I mean, I think Grandma was probably frustrated to a certain extent that her Japanese, I don't think her Japanese was the greatest Japanese in the world, far from it, because she didn't get to use it that much. I think that's another reason she liked going to the House, was she got the chance to use it. But she could surround herself with beautiful Japanese things, and I think that really centered her, I think that really made her very happy. I mean, to the end, she didn't want to go, Grandma didn't want to go to a situation like you're in, that's not what she wanted, she wanted very much to... whereas you wanted to just be done with the house. "I want out." "You don't want this house, then fine, we're selling it." Grandma didn't want to leave, she wanted to stay there, she wanted to die in that house because it was so much a life work. I mean, she had that guy John coming in all the time to do all the woodwork in there and everything like that, there was a guy who was the gardener, John Erian maybe?

LG: John Erian.

LR: John Erian would come in and sort of do all this work for her over the years. And over the years, she transformed the house to be someplace that was really special. So when we actually sold the house, we were very happy that the people who actually bought the house -- although I'm sure they made plenty of changes -- but they really appreciated, we were just so touched that there was, a gay couple bought the house and they were, actually lived in the neighborhood and they just switched houses from the house that was, like, a few doors down. Yeah, they were in the back. They were in the back, yeah, right, they were in the street in the back, and they could see the garden. So it really touched my heart to know that. So when I found out that they wanted to do the deal, I was like, we were just like, "Let's do it." They can appreciate the house. Of course they're going to make changes and they already have. But what's interesting is they built up on the house, and they've done a lot of stuff, yeah. Yeah, they built up, they built another floor, but the garden is still there. The garden is still there, but I thought that was really interesting. I don't know what thoughts were going through my grandma's head, but I do know that she had a particular aesthetic and she... and what was going on at the Japanese House and Garden touched her and influenced her profoundly in terms of her personal style as well. And I think, living in a place like Philadelphia where there's not a real strong Japanese American community, I think, that was so important for her to have that connection. I sometimes wonder, would she have lived as long as she lived without the Japanese House and Garden? I don't know.

RB: Great. Yeah, well, that's all for me. Thank you so much, Lucas.

LR: You're welcome. Thank you for coming out. Thank you for coming out and taking the time.

<End Segment 8> - Copyright © 2023 JACL Philadelphia. All Rights Reserved.