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RB: And I think... I've sort of addressed this in other questions, but I'm just wondering, as you describe the different people that were kind of part of the staff as well as the board of the Friends of the House and Garden, it's clear that they all came from different backgrounds, and probably had different reasons for doing the work that they were doing there. And I'm just curious, I know you would be guessing, but could you maybe provide some thoughts around what was driving different groups of people?

LR: In terms of leadership?

RB: In terms of leadership, and why were they doing what they were doing?

LR: When I was there, the guy who was heading it up, what the heck? He was an academic. He was an academic who, he was Caucasian, he was an academic who had spent time in Japan, was very knowledgeable about Japanese art and culture. His focus was definitely on presenting Japanese culture to the community and sort of trying to maintain the house in the most authentic possible way that you could maintain it. That was his focus. And to be honest with you, that seemed to be where everybody was at. I mean, you're the first person that I know who's talked about what did this mean for Japanese American people? What does this mean for people in the community? That's when I heard that you were doing, having those conversations, I was fascinated because it was not something that was ever touched upon, despite the fact that there were so many Japanese Americans who were making sure that this place ran, functioned. It was just sort of like the experience that mattered was the pure Japanese experience, and that's what we were very... that's what folks were very interested in, and I can't remember ever once, unless I interjected something about my experience being Japanese American background. I don't remember anybody ever asking me or showing any interest in that sort of thing, Paul, maybe. But then those were mostly conversations that I had just one-off, you know what I mean? It was just me and him, sort of like having those conversations, but no, it just was not a part of the dialogue or the conversation in any way that I can remember.

RB: That's great, that's helpful. I think I'm mostly through my questions on Shofuso unless you have any?

LG: You know, in the last interview you did mention maybe some discrimination or racist encounters. Were there anything, at least specifically tied to Shofuso beyond the stories you shared?

LR: Yeah, I think I mostly covered it. I would say it was definitely, there definitely was... my experience with it was different. I'm coming at it from the story of a hapa, you know what I mean? So it was the experience of, "You're just not Japanese enough." [Laughs] "You're just not." "You're not the real thing. Can we get one of those other tour guides that are the real Japanese? We want the real..." I always felt as though that's what they wanted. They had to have the real Japanese person to take around. So I mean, it actually made me focus in more on my tour and make sure that I did a really great job with my tours, and made sure that I knew -- back then, not now, but back then I knew the House really, really well, because I was always getting quizzed by people who thought I wasn't Japanese enough that I was lying to them. So I don't know, was that a micro-aggression? Or maybe there's no such thing as a micro-aggression, I don't know. But I sort of remembered that being... and I loved working with the kids because the kids never asked. The kids were just sort of like, wow, that's so cool. [Laughs] And if I brought anything in, like I brought, I think I was doing some stuff with silkworms, and I would bring in silkworms, and I would bring in silkworms and silkworm cocoons and things like that, and you're like, "Wow, that's so cool." That's what I loved working with the kids, you never got any of that kind of stuff from them, but I just sort of remember constantly feeling like this is not, I'm just never going to be Japanese enough for them, because of the way I looked, because of the way I grew up. So that was a big thing for me.

And then just sort of... I always felt as though the Japanese in the House and Garden was a victim of a different kind of racism, I mean, in the sense that it just, nobody cared about it. Like the city didn't give too, it didn't give a rat's ass about it. I mean, to have one security guy for this whole area, and they loved to be able to say that they had, "Oh, look, we have this Japanese..." they didn't do anything to fund it. All this funding came from Japanese Americans or it came from the Japan-America Society from museum folks, it came from fundraising. But the city invested absolutely nothing and I don't know why. I realize that it was not easy times for the city, but they certainly had plenty of money to fund other stupid nonsense. So in a sense, in a broader sense, I think it was the victim of the Asian invisibility. And I certainly don't think that anybody really put any care into us sort of thinking about all these Japanese American folks who put their lives into trying to, every time it got trashed, rebuilding it every time, just like they do now. I don't think anybody put any thought into all that hard work that people like my grandmother and so many other people put into the place.

And then there was the stuff with the community. But I always felt as though things going on in the community, I was never sure who actually torched the Japanese House and Garden. Was it somebody, some kids playing around? Was it somebody else, was it white supremacists? We never knew. So that larger issue of racism was always there. [Laughs] The one place, and I'm curious as to whether or not that still exists, but I remember you would get a whole lot of crap from people because you asked them to take off their shoes. [Laughs] And people would just freak out because you were asking them to take off their shoes, and say, "Hey, you want the Japanese experience? I'm giving it to you, man." [Laughs] "Here you go, take off those shoes and put these on." I remember that was an area of stress, and it was always better when the Japanese ladies said it to them. When the Japanese ladies said it to them, it was sort of like, "Oh, okay, if they're telling us that, then it must be true." [Laughs] Whereas with the kids, they just loved it. They were like, "Oh, I can take off my shoes? This is awesome. Oh, this feels so good on my feet," blah, blah, blah.

RB: Great.

<End Segment 7> - Copyright © 2023 JACL Philadelphia. All Rights Reserved.