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RB: So I want to talk about this time period a little bit, because it's sort of just for a broader community history, a really interesting time period, the 1980s, the U.S.-Japan trade wars happening, they're sort of the anti-Japanese, Japan-bashing in the news, Vincent Chin was killed at the start of the '80s, throughout the '80s, the redress movement's happening, finally signed into law, the 1988 Civil Liberties Act. And I'm just curious, was any of this being discussed within the context of the people who were working on the site, was there a sense of racial consciousness in any of this?

LR: I think there were a couple people... Mom, do you remember the name of the guy who was in Yellow Seeds? Miyasha's ex-husband?

RB: Jim?

LR: Yeah.

RB: Not that Jim, Paul.

LR: Yeah, Paul, sorry, Paul. Yeah, I mean, Paul was around during those times, you know what I mean? And he was very, very active in Yellow Seeds and with all of the things that you're talking about. Yeah, so you know, I remember actually  talking to him about some of these issues way back then. But on the whole, I would say that, no, it was not a political space from what I could see. Obviously, I wasn't there all the time, but it seemed to be more of a cultural sort of a space. And it almost felt like... to be honest with you, it almost felt like... because I remember talking politics at the Japanese House, because I tended to do that, it was the '80s and everything like that. And it just was not something that people wanted to hear. I never got the sense that people wanted to hear these discussions about race, and things did come up. We were in a Black community and we had to deal with the fact that here we are in this community, and how do we interact with the community? And there was some people who wanted us to chase away the kids, you know what I mean, rather than to try to engage them. And there was, even amongst these staff members who I loved very dearly, there was a lot of anti-Blackness, anti-Black racism. I remember having discussions with one person who... I don't want to name her name because I believe she's still alive, but I had some of my neighborhood friends who were Black, sort of come and visit, and she was not happy that I brought them. She was very upset, and when I sort of asked why, it became very prevalent that it was because of the color of their skin. And I remember that... I remember being very angry about that and trying to have a discussion about that, but it never went very far.

And I also remember there was this weird thing that would happen, being biracial, and not necessarily presenting as Asian. There was this weird thing that would sort of happen, and this was mostly with the white folks who would come, is sort of like there was this idea that, "Well, you don't speak Japanese?" I said, "Well, I can speak some things that people taught me here." "Well, you should be fluent." "You should be this and you should go marry a Japanese woman and go live in Japan." And I said, "What are you?" [Laughs] "Oh, do you speak fluent Italian?" [Laughs] "Oh, how's your Gaelic?" I remember these kind of conversations with people who just assumed that without having any understanding of, I would try to explain, "Well, Japanese American, that's a very specific kind of experience." There was no conversation around, or interest around the internment. Because Mom and Dad made it very clear to me what happened to Japanese Americans, just in the same way my dad made it very clear to me what happened to Jews during the Holocaust. They were very open from a very early age, and I always felt very comfortable speaking about these issues. But I noticed at the Japanese House and Garden, was not a place where people were very open to talk about these issues. I even remember having an argument one time with, they ended up hiring, for some reason, I never knew why. There was a white woman that ended up working, she kind of was mostly a ticket person. She didn't take tours around, but I think they were kind of forced to, they were trying to get rid of her from the horticultural center, and she was just horrible. She even made racist comments about Japanese people. She even made comments about trying to say that, oh, the internment was justified. And I'm sort of like, "Why is this person working here? You shouldn't even be working here." And I never quite understood why somebody who held such beliefs... and not willing to even engage with a discussion, but who held such obviously racist beliefs, was allowed to sort of like be front and center at the House and Garden. So those things happened at a very different level, so I never really understood, but it was pretty clear to me that there was not -- that that was just not something that you really talked about.

RB: Thanks for sharing that, and I guess it makes me think about, in general, it's distinction between being Japanese and Japanese American. And I'm sort of curious how intentional was that distinction being made from other people within this organization? It sounds like you, as yourself, have the ability to have conversations like that from people in Louise's generation, for example, or some of the other Japanese and Japanese American community leaders.

LR: Yeah, it's hard to say. I was a lot younger then and I sort of I thought I knew everything, too. [Laughs] But yeah, I don't feel as though distinctions were necessarily... distinctions were apparent. It was apparent when the Japanese American folks came in and sort of did stuff, and it was apparent when the Japanese folks were here, you know what I mean? Especially ones who were helping out at the House. It was clear that there was a demarcation, but it was very unspoken. I think that there was a sense on the part of the older Japanese American generation, folks like my grandmother, there was a little bit of... how should we say? Insecurity around the Japanese-Japanese. Because their Japanese wasn't necessarily very fluent, and their understanding of culture could be sporadic at best. And so I think that those, that existed but it went unspoken. I don't remember anybody ever really addressing those issues. You know, and even being biracial, there were at least two of us there who were. The other person, "Young Reiko," we called her Young Reiko, I never knew her last name. But she was, I think her mother was actually Japanese, so she was much more incorporated into the Japanese culture. It was easier for her to be considered like one of the ladies, you know what I mean? For me it was much harder just because I look the way I look, and also because my knowledge basis of Japanese culture was, I didn't have a whole heck of a lot. And so I think it was a little easier for Younger Reiko. And Younger Reiko also put a lot more effort, from an earlier age, to learn, make that a part of who she was. And for me, I probably spent most of my time trying to be Black like the kids in my neighborhood. [Laughs]

But I do really remember, there was one... oh, my god, this was very typical. This is something that I experienced a lot. So there was a lot of professors who would come and give lectures and things like that, and there was this one older guy, I don't remember if he came from the Academy of Fine Arts or where, Philadelphia Museum of Art, I don't remember. But the guy would have a whole slew of students around him, and would say, "Oh, yeah, take me on a tour," and I'd be like, "Oh, god, again." I was like, "Why do you want me to take you on a tour? You know more than me." "Oh, no, no, I'm not going to say anything." And so as soon as I started saying, giving my tour, he would contradict everything that I said. [Laughs] He would just say, "Well, what he means to say is..." and I would say, "Why am I giving the story? You obviously know everything." But it was full of people that often were these folks, white folks who sort of knew everything about what it is to be Japanese. They just knew everything about what it was to like Japanese culture, blah, blah, and they could tell you everything. So there were a lot of folks like that who sort of came, and those were the ones who annoyed me the absolute most. [Laughs] And so this guy had to make a point of showing how little I knew, you know what I mean, in front of all his students and how much he knew. But that was kind of like a constant thing where people were just, knew everything, what it was to be Japanese, yet knew nothing about when you talk to them about, "Oh, you know about my family history and the internment?" and they couldn't care less about that. All they cared about was the "exotic" Japanese culture, the "real Japanese," the "real Japan" that they had experienced when they had gone over there.

RB: I think that's still relatable, actually, to some experiences.

LR: [Laughs] It's probably that same guy.

<End Segment 6> - Copyright © 2023 JACL Philadelphia. All Rights Reserved.