Densho Digital Archive - Sab Akiyama Interview

Densho Digital Archive
Oregon Nikkei Endowment Collection
Title: Sab Akiyama Interview
Narrator: Sab Akiyama
Interviewer: Linda Tamura
Location: Hood River, Oregon
Date: October 30, 2013
Densho ID: denshovh-asab-01

<Begin Segment 1>

LT: So, Sab, where were you born and when --

SA: Hood River, Oak Grove, you know. It's about ten miles from here on the west side.

LT: Uh-huh. And what should we know about Oak Grove?

SA: Well, we used to have grade school there, one through eight, and we had to walk two miles each way to go to school. And it was rough on some winters, you have about a foot of snow, and you didn't have a bus like you do today, and they didn't plow the road those days way out in the country. My folks, my dad used to hook up the team, and they had kind of a v-shaped sled to push the snow aside, you know. He used to drag that down to the school and back.

LT: That's great, that's part of the...

SA: It was pretty rough days, those days.

LT: The challenge of living in a rural area.

SA: Yeah.

LT: Makes you tough. So you were born in Oak Grove. When were you born?

SA: 4/7/24, April 7, 1924.

LT: Okay. And your full name?

SA: Saburo, which means the third son. Of course, I go by Sab.

LT: Okay. I didn't know that. Thank you. And let's talk about your father and your mother. What was your father's name and where was he born?

SA: He was born in Okayama, Japan. What was the other question?

LT: What was his full name?

SA: Tomeseichi. He used to go by TS, Tom S.

LT: Okay. And I believe he was born in 1886?

SA: Well, that's probably right, I'm not too sure.

LT: Okay. So what do you know about your father's early life in Japan?

SA: I really don't know much. He never talked much about it. But I was thinking he left Japan in 1905, I think, and that was about the time, was Russia and Japan war was going on, wasn't it? I wonder if it had anything to do with the draft. A lot of immigrants from Japan came over. He never talked about it, but I was just thinking about it the other day. It could be something like that, you know.

LT: Okay, okay. Yes, certainly there was the Russo-Japanese War, and Japanese young men were recruited to the military. What kind of, what did his family do for a living in Okayama?

SA: They had a farm, raised about forty acres, I guess, apples, pears, peaches, cherries. And the cash crop was asparagus. He had about ten acres of asparagus.

LT: Was that in Japan?

SA: Huh?

LT: Was that in Japan? Excuse me, so what kind of work did --

SA: This is U.S., Oak Grove.

LT: Oh, okay. Okay, so going back to Japan, did your, what kind of work did your father's family do?

SA: I don't know. I really don't know.

LT: Okay. Were they farmers by any chance?

SA: I think they had a small farm. Of course, in Japan, they were all small farms.

LT: Okay. Well, so your father came to the United States in 1904 from Okayama. Why do you think he came?

SA: Hmm?

LT: Why do you think he came? Do you think it had to do with war?

SA: I wonder... we never, never mentioned anything like that, but I think there were a lot of immigrants around 1905, '04. But that was about the time of the Russian-Japan War, I think.

LT: Did he have family members who were in the United States at that time when he came to --

SA: Well, yeah, cousins. In Portland they had the curio store, that's where he came to work. The name was not Akiyama, it was Kohara.

LT: Okay.

SA: I think it was like Kohara Trading Company or something like that.

LT: Okay. So when your father came to Portland, he worked for the Kohara curio shop in Portland. What kind of job did he have, do you know?

SA: I don't know.

LT: Okay. Probably stocking the shelves and things like that.

<Begin Segment 2>

LT: Okay. Let's talk about your mom. What was her name and where was she born?

SA: She was born in Okayama. Itsu Ono was her maiden name.

LT: Okay. And do you know what kind of work her family did in Japan?

SA: Well, her dad, her dad was a school principal. And I think they had a little plot, raised rice. I visited their place, Betty and I and Kathy, that was around 1970 or something like that.

LT: Okay. So your mother also had quite a bit of education in Japan.

SA: Well, not really. Well, I guess it's education. She went to a sewing school. But she never went to high school.

LT: And what does one do at a sewing school?

SA: Learn how to sew, knit. I remember at home, she used to knit a sweater, sleeveless sweater for us. Started with the oldest brother, George, Nob, and I.

LT: So you all benefited from sewing school.

SA: Oh, definitely. She used to do a lot of mending and so forth after supper.

LT: Why was sewing school so important in Japan?

SA: Some what?

LT: Why was sewing school so important for young women in Japan?

SA: Well, if they become housewives, it's a useful thing.

LT: Okay. Your mother came to the United States when she was a teenager.

SA: Seventeen, I think.

LT: Okay.

SA: She came as a "picture bride."

LT: What do you know about those arrangements.

SA: I remember Mom talking about, said, "Gee, this fellow's not good looking like the photo they sent." [Laughs]

LT: When she met him?

SA: But she said in Japan she was always told Japan is the most beautiful place on earth. But she said when she landed in Seattle, she couldn't believe there was another place just as, maybe more beautiful than Japan.

LT: So that was a surprise to her.

SA: Yeah.

LT: Well, so why would she want to leave a country where she was, she had family, and come to another country over the ocean, across the ocean, where she didn't know the language and she didn't know the culture?

SA: I imagine her folks figured there's no place for her in Japan and in the family, so they wanted her to become a mother somewhere. And Mom used to say in Japan they used to hear stories that money grew on trees, which it does really, if you think about it, apple, cherries, it's money on the tree, if you don't lose money on the tree. [Laughs]

LT: So you said that in Japan, the family didn't think there was a place for her. Can you explain that?

SA: No, I don't know, really.

LT: She wasn't the oldest daughter, was she?

SA: No. Of course, they arranged the marriage over there through the relatives.

LT: Okay.

<Begin Segment 3>

LT: So how did she find out about your father, T.S. Akiyama? How did they make the arrangements that your mother would marry your father?

SA: I really don't know how they arranged it. But like Mom said, the picture was much better than the actual flesh. [Laughs]

LT: I think there were maybe "picture brides" who said the same thing when they came across. So you brought us to the United States, and your mother and your father met in Seattle for the first time. Can you tell what you know about where they met and how they met, those circumstances?

SA: Well, I think Mom was, one of my cousins from Portland was with her, I mean, met her. And he told her, "Now you have to just throw everything away that's Japanese, because you're in America now. We'll have to go get some Western clothes."

LT: So how did she feel about that?

SA: How did she feel about it? She was kind of sad, but she said, "That's the way it is, so be it." That's the way they thought. I mean, they didn't have any opposition to somebody telling them what to do. They'd been in America for a while.

LT: So when she came to the United States, was she wearing Japanese clothes?

SA: Yeah, I think so. I think she had kimono, you know.

LT: Then when she got married and when she continued to live in the United States, then, she was wearing American clothes.

SA: Western clothes, yes.

LT: Okay, well, thank you. Where did they go from Seattle?

SA: I think they went to Portland, stayed in Portland for a while with my cousin, Dad's cousin, I mean, and then they came to Hood River.

LT: And what did they do in Hood River and where did they live?

SA: Well, they lived in the same house. It's still there, you know, people living in it. But I don't know what they did exactly in Hood River except work on the orchards.

LT: Well, let's go back to your mother's first look at Hood River, coming --

SA: I really don't know. I never talked much about that with Mom.

LT: Okay. So let's talk about what you know about her early life in Hood River. Your father was a farmer.

SA: Yeah. Of course, she was a helper, you know, did everything my dad did almost, except maybe less hours. But I remember her saying, coming home before lunch, and had to chop wood to start the fire in the stove, cook up something. That was a tough decision, find something to eat. She used to mention that.

LT: And so what kinds of meals did she prepare, do you know?

SA: Huh?

LT: What kinds of meals did she prepare, do you know?

SA: Oh, when we had something growing in the garden, that was what we had. Whatever it was, nappa, Chinese lettuce, or strawberries. We had chicken, eggs. One thing Grandma mentioned after the war, when we came back, and she used to prepare chicken, you know, all packaged already. She said at home, before the war, Grandpa used to catch a chicken and chop the head off, then Grandma used to prepare it, defeather it and whatever. But she told us when she was preparing it, she never ate the chicken, she said. We didn't know that. [Laughs]

LT: As a kid you didn't notice that.

[Interruption]

LT: So your mother went to sewing school and learned handcrafts when she was in Japan. When she came to the United States, she was working outside. That must have been a tough challenge for her.

SA: Oh, it probably was. But I think in those days, womenfolks did what they were they were told. I don't think they rebelled much. I don't think there ever was any divorce cases at all. Could have been, I haven't heard.

LT: Are there other examples that you can think of about how difficult life was for your mother?

SA: Well, one thing, she didn't know how to cook. She said she didn't know how to cook rice. So she... my uncle's wife taught her everything. That's interesting, 'cause she probably spent more time sewing than cooking back in Japan.

LT: So her day was spent cooking and working outside.

SA: Oh, yeah.

LT: And then eventually caring for the family. What kind of outside work did she do?

SA: Well, there was lots... asparagus, cutting asparagus, weeding asparagus, you know. And she used to thin and help Dad prune.

LT: The apples and pears?

SA: Huh?

LT: Thin and prune the apples and pears?

SA: Yeah. And during the harvest season, you know, in the old days, they didn't deliver the fruit to one big packing house where they did all the packing, sorting, and so forth. Every orchard, the farmer had their own warehouse, small packing house, called it, and they used to hire like maybe fifteen ladies to sort, and they had ten packers, you know, where the graded sized apples fell in the bin and the people packed them. So there was a lot to do for mother or sister or whatever. It didn't make much difference what sex did what, you just did what needed to be done.

LT: They just did it, didn't they? That's amazing. How many acres of farmland did your father and your mother have?

SA: Oh, not many. I think about forty.

<Begin Segment 4>

LT: And what kinds of work did your father do on the farm?

SA: Oh, gosh, work on the farm is endless. Pruning, thinning, irrigating, spraying, irrigating -- I said irrigation. But things were different in those days. I mean, like today, you have a big speed sprayer, just go down the row, between the rows of fruit and you're done, you spray it. But then in the old days, you had a tank sprayer pulled by a team of horses, held about two hundred fifty gallons, and you had about two hundred foot of hose behind the machine and you had a spray gun and you sprayed the trees, and somebody moved the tank with, keep the horse going. But then when the tank empties, you had to go back to the main port to refill the tank, and that took another half hour or so. But by the time you finished spraying, well, you cover, spray one round on the entire orchard, time to start the first part again.

LT: It is endless, isn't it? If you could describe your father, what kind of personality would you say that he was?

SA: Dad? Oh, he was very domineering. Like even in Europe in the old days, father was the ruler. He didn't argue.

LT: Can you give an example that you remember as a child?

SA: No, but I used to get in trouble a lot because I was kind of rebellious, incorrigible. [Laughs]

LT: What would he say to you then?

SA: Huh?

LT: What would he say to you?

SA: Oh, he wouldn't say much, but you know I'm in trouble. I used to go hide behind my mom. [Laughs]

LT: And your mom was ten years younger than your father, I believe.

SA: Yeah.

LT: Okay. How would you describe her?

SA: Oh, she was very helpful. Yeah, like I said, she used to knit us sweater. She did all the cooking. I don't think my dad did any cooking.

LT: How would you describe their relationship as a married couple?

SA: Oh, I think in those days, the female, the mother, had no question. I mean, she did what she was told. I mean, it's not like that today. [Laughs]

LT: You know, going back, you said that their view of living in the United States was that you could almost pluck money from trees. So did they talk about that later on?

SA: No. But when you think about it, fruit hanging on tree is money, you know.

LT: Makes sense.

<Begin Segment 5>

LT: So let's talk more about you. You're the fourth of five children in the Akiyama family. What do you remember about being a kid growing up in Oak Grove?

SA: Not much. Before working, used to have fun. We had a neighbor boy who was about my age, we used to get into trouble together.

LT: What kinds of things would you do?

SA: Oh, we used to play with, like wintertime, go sledding, and summertime, wagon, and climb trees, bean shooters, try to get a bird off of an electric line or something. You know, I did hit one one day, and it just scared the heck out of me, the bird tumbled down, and it was on the ground a few seconds, but it flew off.

LT: Was your friend Nisei?

SA: Huh?

LT: Was your friend Nisei? Was he a Nisei, your friend?

SA: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

LT: So were most of your friends Nisei?

SA: Yeah. Of course, living in the stretch between the school and the home, two miles, I said I think there were one, two, three, four, five, about five families and just one was a Caucasian family.

LT: Okay. Well, you mentioned school. So let's talk about school in Oak Grove.

SA: Oak Grove?

LT: Yeah. When you went to school, did you speak English or Japanese? Did you speak English or Japanese?

SA: Oh, English. But the early Niseis like my cousin, Suma, she was one of the earlier ones from that area, you know, went to school. She said Grandma was saying when she was supposed to go, when the school was over, she didn't realize it. She just stayed in her seat. She didn't understand that you're supposed to leave. But the younger Niseis had no problem, because everybody was speaking English by then at home.

LT: So how did you feel about school?

SA: How did I feel about school? Oh, I thought it was fun.

LT: Could you take me through a day at school, and could we start at home, how you got ready for school, and then what your day at school was like?

SA: Oh, well, at home, we had Grandma make sandwich. And we left school, left home about, school started at nine, so we left home about seven-thirty or so, to walk to school. At school, the class started at nine, had classes... in the summertime, we used to have a recess once in the morning, once in the afternoon, go out and play baseball. But wintertime, we couldn't do much, just kind of sat around. But we used to go down to the furnace room a lot, because in the wintertime the things were wet, and we used to take our socks and shoes off, and this janitor was real nice. He put a, when it was dry, we'd go down and check it. And we used to have a play room. Seating was about, oh, where the exit sign is. We'd have a basketball hoop, and man, I could almost dunk it. [Laughs] Yeah, we used to have fun.

LT: What do you remember about the classes you took?

SA: Huh?

LT: What do you remember about the classes that you took?

SA: Class?

LT: The classes? What subjects?

SA: Oh, I don't remember the subjects. But I do remember we had to make book reports. And I used to like the Zane Grey book, like Thundering Herd. And the teacher finally said, "No more Zane Grey books. You won't get credit for it."

LT: So your class, how many were in your class?

SA: Like my eighth grade class was about nine.

LT: And how many were Nisei and how many were not?

SA: You know, I think the eighth grade class, it's about fifty-fifty, I think. Fifty Nisei, I mean, half Nisei, half Caucasian.

LT: And so were your friends, did you all play together, or did you tend to play with...

SA: Yeah, we were friends until the war.

LT: Sure, I understand that. And we'll talk about that in a while, too.

<Begin Segment 6>

LT: I'm also wondering about things that your family did together when you were growing up as a kid.

SA: Well, we used to, we used to have a picnic, you know, community picnic in Mosier once a year. Of course, that place was inundated after the Bonneville Dam went in.

LT: And so was this your family or was it the Oak Grove?

SA: No, just Japanese, there's a whole... people who wanted to come, you know.

LT: So can you tell me a little bit about the picnic site and what happened at the Mosier picnic with the Japanese American community?

SA: Well, it was all Japanese, the annual Mosier picnic. But it was fun. We used to have a sack race with your right leg and a partner's left leg in a gunnysack, you race, things like that. But it had a nice beach before the dam was built. It had a nice beach, and they used to raise, like lots of asparagus and vegetables.

LT: So getting back to the picnic, you had gunnysack races, were there other races?

SA: Oh, yeah.

LT: What other races did they have?

SA: Oh, I think they had races for older, not older, but housewives. They used to have a paper, like a paper plate, and put an orange or something on it, they had to race without losing the orange off the side.

LT: Did your mother compete?

SA: Huh?

LT: Did your mother compete?

SA: Yeah.

LT: And what about the men? Did they have races, too?

SA: I don't remember. I don't remember men's race. Must have been.

LT: Okay. So we've talked about fun things that you and your family and the Japanese American community had. You also had a big farm and you talked about your father and your mother working hard. Did you work on the farm, too?

SA: Oh, yeah. Yeah, we used to work on a farm. I mean, when we were young, too young to work, we used to still go out, pick up brush or something, you know. And in those days, you didn't... what do you call it where you shred the limbs all up, you know. We never had anything like that. We used to burn it, find an open spot in the orchard, and we'd gather these brushes, little bundles, and toss it in the fire. But I remember putting potatoes in there. We used to find some volunteer potatoes in the orchard, and we'd put it by the edge of the fire, you know, on the hot coals. They used to be good. [Laughs]

LT: So the brush, can you talk about where this brush came from?

SA: Hmm?

LT: Where did the brush come from?

SA: From the trees. They prune it. I shouldn't call it brush, I guess.

LT: But that's what we called it, I remember, too. I think others might not understand what we mean when we say we're going to be pruning, or we're going to pick our brush, but I certainly remember that. So how did you like working on the farm?

SA: Oh, never did like working. I always wanted to play baseball or something. But it's something everybody did, you know, they had to do it.

LT: Let's... the Japanese community had a hall downtown in Hood River. Did you go up to the community hall?

SA: Oh, yes. We used to go there... used to have Sunday school there, I've been there a few times. And we used to have Japanese school there twice a month or something like that.

LT: And can you talk about Japanese school, what it was, why it was, and what happened there?

SA: Well, we had a book, a Japanese book, like first grader, second grader. This teacher, he was a Methodist minister, Reverend Inouye was the instructor. But we used to rebel because it was usually on weekends, you know, our time off from school, wanted to be home playing baseball or something.

<Begin Segment 7>

LT: So you attended school five days a week. When did you attend Japanese school?

SA: Like weekends, like Saturday.

LT: All day Saturday?

SA: Yeah, well, from nine to two or something like that.

LT: So why were you attending Japanese school?

SA: Well, folks wanted us to learn Japanese. And we used to have a Japanese school maybe once a week at somebody's home. Like I remember having the minister come over to our house once a week, depending on the month, you know. But we were a rebellious bunch, because on a nice day you could be out doing something else besides going to school.

LT: So did your Nihongo get pretty good?

SA: Huh?

LT: Did your Nihongo get pretty good?

SA: No, very basic. Hello and goodbye. [Laughs]

LT: Do you remember what the classes were like?

SA: Well, we had, like I say, a simple book, like you probably heard of it, like, "Saita, saita, sakura ga saita." [Laughs]

LT: What does that mean?

SA: What does that mean? Oh, it means the blossom is blossoming, cherry blossoms. You know, Japan was kind of well-known for cherry blossoms.

LT: Okay, well, it sounds like you learned that lesson well.

SA: Huh?

LT: It sounds like you learned that lesson well. Were there other things that you at the Japanese community hall downtown?

SA: Well, we used to put on a Christmas play. Reverend Inouye used to write it up for us.

LT: What was it about, and what did you play?

SA: Gosh, I don't know what we did. But I remember at the end, we were able to get candy. [Laughs]

LT: It sounds interesting. So it sounds like there were a number of community events at the Japanese community hall that were important to your family.

SA: Yeah. Like they used to have, like a farewell program for people who were being drafted.

LT: Do you remember about that, what happened?

SA: Well, they just, I don't know what kind of program it was really now, but it's kind of a farewell program, you know.

LT: Okay, okay. Let's talk about being Japanese American in your family. How did your parents talk to you about being Japanese?

SA: Oh, they used to always tell us, you know, about early 1941, say like... you know, in early '41, there was a lot of talk about possibility of war with Japan, because they had the embargo, U.S. had embargo on scrap metal shipment to Japan and so forth, but, oh, my folks kept telling us, "See, you kids are American, so there's no telling what would happen to us," because they were Japanese citizens. "So you must do your duty as Americans, whatever the country demanded, you do it." That's what they used to tell us all the time.

LT: And how did you feel about that?

SA: Good.

LT: Did that create worries for you because your parents were also saying that they were not citizens?

SA: They were...

LT: Your parents were also saying that they were not citizens?

SA: Yeah. Of course, they were unable to become citizens.

LT: Were there expectations that they had of you as a Nisei in America in terms of your behavior, in terms of how you studied, in terms of what you did?

SA: Well, I think what bothered me at that time was like when Min Yasui defied the curfew law. We were in enough trouble without going deeper in the hole, you know. But after a while, I thought it was something that was well-done. But at first, I was really against it myself.

LT: Now, can you talk a little bit more about that, because especially when Japan and the United States were not getting along, there was the possibility of war. How did that affect how the Issei behaved, and how did that affect how you and other Nisei portrayed yourselves?

SA: Oh, I don't know about before, but I know afterward, after Pearl Harbor, when my dad was first picked up by the FBI, I didn't go to school on Monday because of that. And later on, when I went to school, well, Tuesday, it was different. I mean, the Caucasian people were not too friendly, of course, I expected that. But a lot of Niseis were not friendly. Because my dad was picked up, and they figured, hey, that guy must have been a spy or something, you know, and they didn't want to associate with me. But it was different. Had discrimination from not only the Caucasian, but Nisei. I mean, that's what I felt. It ended up not being, but that's the way I felt.

LT: Sure. What did they say and what did they do?

SA: I don't think they said anything. It was just kind of a silent treatment, you know.

LT: Thank you.

<Begin Segment 8>

LT: Your father was a community leader among the Japanese in Hood River. Can you talk about his position and what he did?

SA: Oh, it's a small society or something, whatever they had, Japanese American Society, he just happened to be the president. I think that's the first time he ever won president. But that's the reason I guess the FBI picked him up.

LT: Can we go back to the Society, can you tell me more about the Japanese Society in Hood River?

SA: No, I don't know much about it, but I think the whole purpose was that, to improve relations with Japan. That's about all I know, but they've been in existence a long time, I think.

LT: Okay. So on December 7, 1941, after Pearl Harbor, what were you doing when you learned about the bombing of Pearl Harbor?

SA: I was, well, I was pruning peach trees. But when it was about lunchtime, came home, and this neighbor fellow, youngster, Caucasian fellow, about twelve years old or so, come over, said, "Japan bombed Pearl Harbor." At that time, I didn't even know where Pearl Harbor was. You know, today, say a person, fifteen years old or whatever, is quite knowledgeable about everything, 'cause with all the exposure you get from TV and so forth, you know. But in those days, at fifteen, I didn't know much about world events and so forth.

LT: So you didn't know what had happened when you learned about Pearl Harbor's bombing?

SA: Can you repeat...

LT: So you didn't really know the impact?

SA: Oh, I knew the impact, but I didn't know where Pearl Harbor was.

LT: So what happened next? What did your family do as soon as you learned the news about Pearl Harbor?

SA: Not much of anything. You just got to sit and wait, you know. Of course, my dad was at a meeting, but after he came home, we all talked about what I said before. They said, "There's no telling what would happen to us because we're Japanese citizens. But you kids are all American, so you do what the country asks of you."

LT: And what were your thoughts at that time?

SA: Oh, I kind of agreed with that thinking.

[Interruption]

LT: So after you learned the news about Japan bombing Pearl Harbor, what were you thinking? Were you worried, were you anxious, what went through your mind as a seventeen-year-old kid?

SA: Gosh, I don't know. 'Cause my brother was in the service at that time, Geo is my oldest brother. But I know afterwards, couple days later, my brother was home, still home, said, "You think our dad was really a spy?" We went over the attic and the barn and haystack, went through the haystack looking for a shortwave radio or something. Said, "You think he's got it hidden somewhere?" But afterwards, we didn't find anything, he said, "Oh, Dad's not smart enough to be a spy."

<Begin Segment 9>

LT: Well, let's go to the action that spurred this, because in the morning after December 7, 1941, you had visitors at your home. Can you talk about what happened and what you heard and saw as a kid?

SA: Oh, that's when the FBI came. Of course, in those days, didn't lock the door, they walked in and we thought we heard something coming upstairs, that's where our bedrooms were, you know, the folks and us. Then we all woke up when this one fellow's standing right by the door, and the other fellow was telling Dad to get dressed and come downstairs, and we tried to get up and this fellow said, "You guys just stay there." And he stayed there all the time while Mom went downstairs with Dad, and we went through the desks where Mom had kept letters she got from home. And that's what really disturbed her, is she said they took all her letters. Said, "These young guys don't know what they're doing," he said, "when you leave a country at a young age and never see your sister or folks again, you keep all those letters for the memory." That's what really disturbed her. Actually, they got that letter back, but after they left... of course, they took Dad, too. We started burning everything that looked Oriental. We had the kids' 78 records and stuff, and had this fire going. It's the bathhouse fire, you know, you have a fire pit below a steel tank, and she starts throwing everything in there. But I could still see those records being all kind of warped as the heat hits it, and bluish, kind of bluish-yellowish flame. But for a while, we didn't even know where Dad was, 'til after, about the end of December, got a message through somehow, grapevine or something, that Dad wanted a shaving kit and stuff to shave.

LT: And where was he?

SA: He was in Multnomah County Jail. About the end of the month he finally... oh, I guess Nob drove Mom down to visit him. We finally got the word that he can have visitors, you know.

LT: And what did she learn about your father and what kinds of conversations did they have?

SA: Well, the thing Grandma wanted to know is what to spray and what to do on the farm at that time of the year, which is more time for dormant spray.

LT: That must have been so difficult. Going back to when the FBI came to your home, what do you remember thinking and feeling as you were seeing the FBI agents and you were hearing the sounds, and you knew your father was being taken?

SA: Yeah, one thing that came to my mind, to ask the guys if they had a search warrant. But I thought, oh, golly, that'd be a dumb thing, so I never did ask him. But I thought that'd be funny. Well, there was not much you can do, you know. You just, whatever they tell you to do, that's it, I guess, that condition, situation.

LT: So after you burned your family's Japanese memorabilia, you said you went to school. Can you talk again about the responses from your classmates?

SA: I don't remember talking to anybody for a few days. Nobody approached me for any conversation. It was kind of a lonely time.

LT: And why do you think people were not talking with you as much after this happened?

SA: Oh, I figured, "His dad was a bad one, a spy." So they didn't want to be associated with anybody like that. They didn't want to get in trouble.

LT: Well, if your classmates felt that and you were being snubbed at school, did you also begin to wonder if your father was a spy?

SA: Do what?

LT: Your classmates were wondering. Did you also begin to question whether your father was a spy?

SA: Yeah, I thought I mentioned that before. We, my brother and I, we used to go in the, started to go in the barn attic and said, "My gosh, maybe he's got a shortwave radio hidden somewhere," and we started going through the attic among all the junks up there. And we had a haystack in one part of the barn, and we went through part of that. And finally decided Dad wasn't smart enough to be a spy. [Laughs] But you get some funny feelings, funny ideas.

LT: Sure. Were there other precautions that your family took after...

SA: Pearl Harbor?

LT: After Pearl Harbor?

SA: No, I don't think so.

LT: Okay. Were you able to travel and continue going to school and get money and make purchases?

SA: Able to travel. But we had to be, they had a curfew, nine o'clock curfew, you know. You had to be in by nine.

LT: Okay. And so you and your mother and your family then continued caring for the farm in the absence of your father.

SA: Yeah. Of course, that wasn't too long, because we had to evacuate by May 13th, after we learned when President Roosevelt signed the Executive Order 9066 or something like that. Anyway, we had to be out by May (15), 1942.

LT: And so how did your family hear that you would need to leave your home and your farm, and what did they do to prepare?

SA: The only thing we had to have, be able to carry our own suitcase, that was it. And be at the train depot by nine o'clock in the morning or something, I forgot the exact time.

LT: What about your farm and your home and all your belongings? What did you do with them?

SA: Oh, the farm, we had, that's when my brother George came back from the army for three days to find somebody to lease it. Of course, in those days, they had kind of a rumor going around that all the farms are being taken care of, hoping some of the people would have to leave without getting anybody. Well, that's when, like my brother George came back from the army and found this neighbor who was really nice. But you are allowed one suitcase that you can carry, that was about it. And our belongings, like if you wanted to sell anything, you had a few days to sell it, I guess. But I don't think we sold anything. Like we had an old upright piano Kiyo used to take lessons in, you know. And that disappeared, but that was about it.

LT: Okay. Well, you said you could take one suitcase, what you could carry. Do you remember as a seventeen year old kid, your dilemma of what to take and what not to take?

SA: No, I don't remember. Probably... of course, in those days, I didn't have many clothing to decide. Like underwear and pajamas and maybe a couple of pants and shirts and that's about it, handkerchief, socks.

LT: Were there any special things that you recall having to leave behind?

SA: No. Like I said, never had much possession of good things.

<Begin Segment 10>

LT: Well, the Japanese American community in Hood River met at the train station. And you left on May 13, 1942. What did you see there, and what was it like?

SA: Well, we're always surprised to see so many people of Japanese descent at the train depot. I thought the Japanese in Hood River consisted of people in Barrett and Frankton, Oak Grove, that was it. 'Cause, you know, in Hood River at that time, they had, well, the town, high school, Odell, Pine Grove... no, not Pine Grove, Odell, Parkdale. They all had separate high schools, so that's the way it was. I didn't know many Japanese outside of Barrett, Oak Grove, and Frankton. That's what surprised me the most, to see so many.

LT: What was the feeling there?

SA: Feeling there, well, it was, you didn't know where you were gonna be headed for. It just... unable to fathom what's gonna happen. You just... I remember on the train, every time we went through a populated area, we had to pull the shade down. The MP came around, made sure we pull the shade down. I don't know why that was for, but that's the way it was.

LT: So can you talk about what the train looked like? And then you mentioned the MP, the military police, what it was like to board the train?

SA: Well, It was not a happy feeling. It was a one-way ticket, that's the only way he'd go.

LT: Where did you sit?

SA: It was all coach, you know. So they, you just sat where you found a place, march in.

LT: Were there people who came to see you off?

SA: Well, you know, I remember seeing some Caucasian girls, classmate of Japanese girls, I don't know. I think they were a classmate of this Norimatsu girl from Hood River. She lived right in Hood River there. But I used to have a couple of classmates write to me at Pinedale and Tule Lake, 'til their father told them, "Better not do it anymore." You'd be considered a spy or something, you know.

LT: Well, thank you for sharing those recollections.

<Begin Segment 11>

LT: Sab, on May 15, 1942, you and your family were on a train headed from Hood River. You didn't know where you were going, and you ended up at Pinedale Assembly Center. Can you talk about what you saw and what you felt and what it was like to be in a new place?

SA: Well, first place was, first time I'd ever been on a train. And I remember the rhythm of the train every time they hit a joint in the track, it's pretty rhythmic. And I remember every time we went through any populated area, we had to pull the shades down. I don't understand that, but that's what it was. The MP came through the cars to make sure everybody had their shade down. But I remember going way up in the mountains somewhere, which was around Crater Lake, I think, along Klamath Falls, but I'd never been in that area before. Then we headed for Sacramento, oh, I forgot some other city there, but it finally ended up in Pinedale, and it was hot. It must have been 120 in the shade, and dusty. No vegetation of any kind, just barracks. And we were assigned, I forgot the name, number of the barrack, but it was just tarpaper outside. But it was dusty, and in the morning when you get up, there must have been eighth of an inch of dust all over our blanket. It was a small room, and it wasn't completed all the way to the top, to the ceiling, had no ceiling. And they had these rafters open, so if a baby is crying three rooms down, you could hear it. And it was all outdoor plumbing mainly. Like I said, it was hot. I had a job working in the kitchen, in Pinedale, Mess Hall D-2, and I think eight dollar a month or something. But it was something to do, and it was kind of fun. You meet different people.

I had this friend from, I think he said he was going to Stadium High in Tacoma, Hiro Tomita was his name, and he come about four o'clock in the morning singing this song about, "I've got spurs." And after the war, when Mom came home, she was singing that. [Laughs] Anyway, we used to go to work about four o'clock, he and I would go and peel potatoes or whatever, second cook, classified as a second cook. But we didn't stay there too long. I think we moved to Tule Lake around... oh, must have been late August, early September, in that area. Boy, Tule Lake was, oh, that was really five-star lodging. We had hot and cold running water, showers. Mom used to say being in Tule Lake was like a vacation for her. She met a lot of new friends and did a lot of craft work. That was it.

LT: It seemed like a vacation to your mom. Was it really?

SA: Yeah. She said she didn't have to worry about what to cook tonight, you know. Never had to worry about shower, hot water, starting the fire for the furo, you know, Japanese bath at home. She used to do a lot of that. But she had some little things made, like a jewelry box or some shells from Tule Lake. I don't know where it went. Yeah, she said she enjoyed it. Of course, we didn't have to stay too long.

LT: Well, you mentioned the, working in the kitchen, getting up at four o'clock. What kinds of meals do you recall at Tule Lake?

SA: I know some good meal I remember, like pork roast, the chef, I think he was from around Seattle, used to make some really good pork roasts. He put, sprinkled flour or something on the roast, and they get that nice crisp finish on it. But he was really temperamental. I remember one fellow complained about the food, and this guy grabbed a butcher knife and was going to take after it. But, you know, in that atmosphere sometimes, temperature ranging around 120, it was more than that in the kitchen. You can't get what you want to cook, but you do what, use what you get, and if people complain, that really bothers some people.

LT: Can you talk about some of the meals?

SA: No, I can't remember meals. It just... I know we used to get a lot of Vienna sausage, in the can, you know. We used to open cans.

LT: And how was that?

SA: Huh?

LT: How was that?

SA: Well, actually, food was never too good, but there's no use complaining. Can't do anything about it. At least it's food, you know.

LT: So you said there was nothing you could do about it, you didn't complain. What other things didn't you complain about?

SA: Well, like (Pinedale), the shower was outside. But like I said, there's no use complaining, at least it's a shower.

LT: Can you talk about the shower? Since I haven't seen it, what did it look like and what was it like taking a shower at (Pinedale)?

SA: Well, they had a, kind of a... well, the plywood up, I guess, like maybe that size, up about ten feet. You had a hot and cold shower, water, but you didn't have any big drainage system or anything, it was kind of a grill, you know, running down into a cesspool or something. But very basic. And like the food, I remember one fellow from Hood River, forgot his name, we had some leftover food from the kitchen, so on the way home, I dropped off and hit his barrack, dropped it off. And by gum, the next day, or a couple days later, he brought me a gift, it was a geta, you know, Japanese geta, which would really come in handy at that time because you had no concrete floor and that kept you that far off the ground. That was a rough camp.

<Begin Segment 12>

LT: Well, at Tule Lake, you also took the "loyalty questionnaire." What do you recall about that?

SA: Not much. I think it said, "Would you forsake all allegiance to the Emperor of Japan?" or something like that, and, "Would you serve in the U.S. force?" something like that, in the army, or, "forsake Japan and give all your allegiance to the United States of America." There were three questions there, I think. So I know my questionnaire was actually all positive, you know. But at Tule Lake there was a lot of so-called "pro-Japanese," you know, pro-Japan. I remember there was some folks in Hood River, lived in what we called "Alaska zone" in Tule Lake. And to get there, we had to go through this California area where there's pro-Japan. And to skip that part, we had to go around about an extra five, ten blocks. But it was some scary times there.

LT: Can you talk about what happened and what you worried about when you went through those areas?

SA: Went through that area? We didn't go through that area, we skirted around it. Because you used to hear about people getting beat up, you know. That camp, when we went there, it was about 15,000, and I think they enlarged it to about twenty. But all the "no-no" people went in there, in Tule Lake.

LT: It's hard for me to imagine being in a camp when the government moved me from my home and my farm, and being behind barbed wire. It must be difficult for some to answer "yes-yes" to those questions.

SA: Yeah.

LT: And in some ways, it's easy to understand how people might be against, or pro-Japan. That must have been very difficult for the Japanese American community to have such divisions in people's attitudes.

SA: Yeah, I think you're right. But I don't know, like in my case, I didn't see why I would answer any way than "yes-yes."

LT: Can you talk about that?

SA: Huh?

LT: Can you talk more about that?

SA: Well, I figure I always, the way I grew up as an American citizen, it just didn't dawn on me that I would put more allegiance to the Emperor of Japan. There was no way I would think that way. I just don't see how.

LT: Did the fact that the American government had taken your father and placed him in a camp, did that also affect your feelings? Because you're in a camp, and your father was in a camp, your brother was serving in the military.

SA: Yeah. Well, Mom used to say if it was Japan, they, like father and mother, Japanese citizens would be treated much worse. She said, "At least we're lucky we're in America." She used to tell me that.

<Begin Segment 13>

LT: So you left camp to work. Can you talk about school and leaving camp and what you did afterward?

SA: Well, in 1943, WRA was trying to have more people relocate so they can close the camp, you know. But... so I quit high school in '43, because I was told I had enough credit, and gave me a diploma. Then in early '44, spring of '44, we went to... we went to Montana to work. There was about four of us near Great Falls on Sun River. That was a little different experience. But then we came back in '44, no, fall. Came back to camp fall of '43. And that's where I met Grandpa for the first time after a long time. He was back in camp.

LT: And this was at Minidoka, is that right?

SA: Minidoka, right. Yeah. I left Tule Lake to go to work and came back, the family had moved to Minidoka, right.

LT: So what do you recall about your first meeting with your father after he had been in the DOJ camp?

SA: You know, that's a funny thing. I didn't have any big emotional feeling. I mean, we'd been separated since 1941, and with camp life, I think the family composition was kind of breaking down. You didn't have the unity like you used to before. You depended on each other for food and whatever, you know. Because camp life, you're becoming more independent because you were fed, room and board, so I think the family composition was kind of disintegrating. But when we were first seeing Dad after a long time, we didn't have any emotional feeling, 'cause I never was too emotional, I guess. It was nice, but that was about it.

LT: What did he say about his experiences, what did you learn about what he had been through?

SA: What he'd been through? We didn't talk much about it, his internment times. I know he did a lot of, kind of woodcarving he brought back, you know. I think there's something down at the port where they had the Japanese exhibit. But family feeling was really changing, to me, in a way, because, like I say, you're getting board and room and you're not depending on each other anymore, you know. I think it's kind of a breakdown of a family unity.

<Begin Segment 14>

LT: So let's talk more about camp and how your life was different in camp, as opposed to your life in Hood River.

SA: 'Course, like in camp, you get a feeling of... oh, maybe compared to so-called "gang feeling." See, you're not united with the family as much, 'cause you're breaking apart, and you become more closely formed with a certain group of guys. I think that's what happened. I think that's what happened to me. You just, yeah, you're not relying on each other anymore, you just, you're being fed and housed, you know.

LT: So you spent more time with your friends.

SA: Huh?

LT: You spent more time with your friends.

SA: Oh, definitely, yeah.

LT: So what kinds of things did you do in camp with your friends? Went to school?

SA: Oh, we used to, at Tule Lake, we used to go up to Castle Mountain there, and in the spring, look for rattlesnakes. Then we'd catch one and chop the head off, and bring it back because a lot of the Isseis liked rattlesnake.

LT: Isn't that a little dangerous?

SA: Huh?

LT: Wasn't that a little dangerous?

SA: Not early in the spring, they're still in dormancy, see. They're kind of inactive. They won't do it in the midsummer when they're active. [Laughs]

LT: What else did you do with your friends?

SA: We used to do some carving, you know, but that's about it. Walk around the camp. Not much to do, you're kind of wired in, fenced.

LT: You did attend school for a little bit.

SA: Yeah.

LT: So how was school in camp? The same or different from school in Oak Grove?

SA: Oh, I think it lacked discipline in camp. But when I was discharged and applied for Oregon State, they told me, "You didn't complete high school, so you have to, if you want to come to our school, you have to take an entrance exam." And I figured, god, I'll never pass the entrance exams. That's the reason I ended up at Pacific. Somebody told me about Pacific, so I applied there, and I was two weeks late, but they took me.

LT: Okay, so you mentioned that there was not as much discipline in the school at camp. Can you talk more about that?

SA: Oh, yeah. They'd be talking and not really listening to the teacher and so forth. Some guys would be reading comic book in school. It just wasn't quite there. And the teachers never required much. I guess they figured you're in captivity.

LT: Do you remember what you studied?

SA: No, I really don't. I remember taking a physics course from somebody from around Seattle, John Arima, I think, was his name, but he was a good teacher. But a lot of the teachers were Caucasian, you know.

LT: Okay. Well, we talked about your experiences in camp. What did your father do when he returned to Minidoka?

SA: Well, I don't know what he did. Because when he returned, that was about the time I started to get ready to go join the army. So that was... I don't know what he did much. He was home a while before I met him again, because I was out working, you know.

[Interruption]

LT: You were in camp for two years living in a Japanese American community, different from Oak Grove. You also were there because the government had placed you and your family there. Your thoughts about your wartime incarceration?

SA: Oh, well, I didn't think it was necessary, you know. Like you said, my brother was in the service, and a lot of other Niseis were in service. But I didn't think there were going to be any sabotage or anything like that by the Japanese. [Coughs] Excuse me. No, I thought it was not necessary, but just one of those things, you got to take it as it comes, I guess.

LT: Okay. Did you ever think about challenging the fact that you were placed in camp?

SA: No, I never had that depth of legal thought.

<Begin Segment 15>

LT: After you'd been in camp for two years, you volunteered for the United States Army. Can you talk about your thoughts about that, and then about your induction and your service?

SA: Oh, I figured like my folks used to tell me before the war, before Pearl Harbor, said, "If anything happens, just remember you're American citizen, so you do what your country asks of you." And that's the way I felt, so I decided to volunteer. Besides, I was getting tired of camp life.

LT: And when did you volunteer, and where did you go for basic?

SA: I went to Fort McClellan, Alabama. Anyway, I was inducted in Ogden, no, Salt Lake, Utah. Took basic in Fort McClellan, Alabama, and then after that, went to MIS school in Minneapolis, St. Paul, Fort Snelling.

LT: And so in the Military Intelligence Service, you were preparing to be a linguist, to translate... what would your role have been in the MIS?

SA: What was...

LT: So what were you preparing to do as part of the MIS?

SA: Oh, with my ability in the language, the Japanese language, I was more or less a helper when they come across some difficult Japanese character, kanji, we'd look it up in the dictionary and help. 'Cause we had quite a few Hawaiian fellows who were really adept in Japanese language, you know. So we would more or less go for that, go for this.

LT: So is this where that Japanese language school helped?

SA: Well, they taught you how to find certain things, you know.

LT: And I was thinking about your going to Japanese language school when you were a kid. Did that help?

SA: Oh, probably helped some.

LT: So did you serve with the Military Intelligence Service?

SA: No. Actually, what happened was... oh, let's see. I was with the CIC, Counterintelligence Corps, in Manasquan, New Jersey. Incidentally, that got wiped out with last year's storm, (Sandy). Anyway, we had a detachment, 429 Signal Detachment, about thirty of us Niseis, and we were supposed to make a secretive landing on the, off coast of Japan. That's what we were being trained for. By then the war was over in '45, so they were disbanded. Then I came back to Snelling again and went to CIC school. So I never did see active action or go, you can go overseas.

LT: It's interesting that you were selected to do intelligence work, though, when your family was in camp and your father had been in a Department of Justice camp. Did you have any thoughts about that?

SA: No, never did.

<Begin Segment 16>

LT: In 1946, you returned to Hood River. Your family had been there for one year, and you came back. So before you returned, what had you heard about your hometown?

SA: Oh, I heard about, not much, but I heard about names being removed from the Honor Roll, you know.

LT: Can you talk about it?

SA: Yeah.

LT: Can you talk about that?

SA: Well, I don't know much about it, really. But I think as the veterans, Caucasian veterans come back from war, they're reading all about 442nd and the 100th, they put the name back on again. Actually, it was due to the pressure of the veterans, Caucasian veterans.

LT: And how would that be?

SA: Well, they put the pressure on the American Legion to reinstall the names.

LT: Okay. So the American Legion had taken the names of Japanese American GIs off the Honor Roll board?

SA: They removed them first, you know, then they put 'em back on again.

LT: Okay. What kinds of things did the Caucasian GIs say?

SA: I really don't know what they said. After all, the 442nd was the most highly decorated service unit ever in the U.S. Army.

LT: That's true. So you must have had some thoughts about what it would be like for your family to return to a valley with this kind of action taken, and also for you to return in 1946. What did you hear from your family about their return?

SA: Actually, I don't remember community with family after their return.

LT: Okay. But I know that you did return to Hood River for a brief furlough when you were still in the military.

SA: Yeah.

LT: What happened then? What did you see and how were you treated?

SA: Oh, at that time, I went to the store there on west side where, as kids, Grandpa used to take us there after summer work and buy us a milkshake or something, you know. I still had my, I had my uniform on, and there was a sign on the door that said, "No Japs Allowed," so I went in and wanted some pop, a certain soda pop. He said, "Oh, we don't have any." Then there were some fellows in there drinking beer. So I said, "Oh, I'll have a glass of beer." Oh, his face turned red and he said, "Dammit, can't you see that sign on the door? No Japs allowed." So I left. But then, after that, talked to Glendale, Clyde, he had a store put on off limits to servicemen. But that's a funny thing. About five, six years after I was in practice, the fellow came in and wanted his eyes checked. That was kind of interesting.

LT: Perhaps he had second thoughts.

SA: Yeah. But there were some good people in the valley. Nob was telling me about a fellow who was a cashier at association, the Food Growers Association, who was really good to Japanese folks or the people that were ernting Japanese land. They had a petition going around at that time to "keep the Japs out of the valley," I don't know, you've probably heard about it. Anyway, they came around to this fellow and wanted him to sign it. He said, "No, I won't sign it." Said, "Well, you might get fired," said, "Okay." Then after about a week, he got fired, and he was fired for three weeks or so, and they wanted him back because they just couldn't replace him. But it's interesting, some of those stories, you know. Or like my brother, when he came back from service, he still had his uniform on, and he went to get his hair cut downtown. And he got the haircut, then the barber said, "God, I should have slit his throat." And in the shop there happened to be a captain, I guess he was in his civvie clothes, but he was a captain. Then he came up to the house, Grandma said, to apologize for this barber making a statement like that.

LT: Thank you for those stories. Are there other incidents that you can think of?

SA: No, I can't. I guess there weren't that many. Oh, well, this lady, electrician's wife in town, Moore, Mrs. Moore, I guess, is the name. She used to do many things for Japanese after they first returned, or they couldn't get service for whatever, she would go get it for them. But Hank, my brother, said he went down to Safeway one day to get some stuff, and when he came out, he had two flat tires. Yeah. Things have changed, I hope. Anyway, the population makeup has changed a lot, like in Hood River, there's not many old-timers anymore, mainly new people coming in, you know. And the younger ones are, I think, pretty good.

LT: What was it like to return to the community where you were raised, and to realize there are so many who are anti, whose actions are against you as a veterans, and you and your family and other Japanese Americans are treated this way and discouraged from making your homes here again. What is that like?

SA: I don't know. I just don't think about it as much maybe as I should. I try to just be myself, that's about it, you know.

LT: How did your family deal with that, especially your mother and your father?

SA: Oh, I don't know. I think my mom is pretty liberal. I don't think she harbors much grudge or something like that, you know. She kind of lets it slide by, but I don't think my dad might a little bit, but actually, there's no sense to harbor any grudge, 'cause you're gonna have it now and then, whatever, you know.

LT: Well, as you continue to live in the valley, what did you do to build more positive relationships with your neighbors and the store owners?

SA: Oh, I don't know if I did anything. But just be yourself, that's about all you can do, you know.

LT: Yeah, that makes sense. How do you think Japanese Americans in Hood River were able to persevere? This is beyond the Issei, but how did they persevere dealing with so much prejudice after the war?

SA: Oh, I don't know. Well, like they say in Japanese, gaman, meaning "hang in there," that's about it, I guess.

<Begin Segment 17>

LT: Let's talk about college. Because after you returned, you applied for further education. Can you talk about that?

SA: Well, I wanted to use my GI Bill, you know. So they used to pay for my tuition, so much for room and board, and I used to work as a dishwasher at Pacific, paid for spending money, you know. But I enjoyed school, most of it fascinating. That time it was ex-vets, you know, they were veterans, so used to be a freshman in our dorm there, he was not a veteran, and man, he had trouble adjusting to being away from home. I felt sorry for the guy, he just, he'd be crying sometimes. He just couldn't adjust.

LT: Well, you graduated from Pacific.

SA: Yeah.

LT: How did you use your degree?

SA: How did I use it?

LT: Uh-huh.

SA: Oh, I had the practice, optometry practice.

LT: And where did you begin practicing?

SA: Huh?

LT: Where did you begin practicing?

SA: When?

LT: Where?

SA: Hood River. Oh, I worked at the clinic in Wheeler, Nehalem for five years, four years. Then I heard about this place going to sell, so through detail man, you know, who comes around, different supplies to sell and so forth, you pick up all these little news. Yeah, that's a long time ago.

LT: Okay. And considering what happened to you and your family after the war, did that affect your thoughts about returning to Hood River to practice?

SA: Yeah, it did some, but I feel there is a pretty good chance to make it, you know. So it worked out pretty good.

LT: Okay. And you brought a wife.

SA: Yeah, I had two kids by then.

LT: Okay. And Betty is Caucasian.

SA: Yeah.

LT: Can you talk about life as a couple when one is Japanese American and one is not?

SA: Yeah, I thought of that, but it seemed to work out pretty good. I mean, I think you're gonna have discrimination one way or another regardless, whether you're both same race or not, you know. So I don't know. Maybe it could have been much better. [Laughs]

LT: Were there any particular challenges in Hood River?

SA: Huh?

LT: Were there any particular challenges in Hood River because of that?

SA: Any...

LT: Any particular challenges in Hood River because of that?

SA: I don't remember.

LT: Okay. And you have four daughters. So what have you told your daughters about your experiences during the war?

SA: I don't remember talking much about it.

LT: Well, you know, I realize that many Nisei do not talk to their families about camp and what happened to them during the war. Can you talk about your thinking about that?

SA: I don't know. I think maybe growing up, at home, you don't talk much about family environment, maybe... well, like my dad, he'd just do it and don't ask questions. So I think we didn't have much conversation at the dinner table. I think if we talked too much, he would say, "Now, let's stop talking and eat so we can go out and work." I mean, that was his thought. So I think we're not adjusted to much conversation.

LT: Have your daughters learned more about your experiences now that they are adults, or do you want them to know more about what you experienced?

SA: Well, we talk about it some, but maybe not as much as we should. I think that was one of the things about the third generation bringing things forward, evacuation and discrimination. I think Nisei as a whole is more reluctant to talk about those things.

LT: And why do you think that is?

SA: I mean, Nisei wouldn't do something like this, like the way you folks are doing. You folks are all Sanseis, aren't they?

LT: Okay. How do you think the wartime experience changed you, or did it?

SA: That's a good question. Did it? I don't know what I was like before the war.

<Begin Segment 18>

LT: So, Sab, how did the wartime experience affect you and your sense of being a Japanese American?

SA: I don't know. Well, actually, it was... well, for the performance of the 442nd and 100th, it's a plus for me, for Japanese Americans. How the unit was the most highly decorated army unit in the history of the U.S. Army. So can't do anything but help, you know.

LT: How did you feel about yourself as a Japanese American?

SA: [Laughs] That's a tough question.

LT: I guess I'm thinking that your thoughts might have changed because you may have had some thoughts when you were a kid growing up, and now you've been in camp, you've served in the military, you returned to a community that was not welcoming. So that all revolved around being a citizen and being a Japanese American. So I'm wondering what your thoughts are now about being a Nisei in America.

SA: I don't know. It's a hard question. What would I be like if I were white? I guess I don't have an answer for that.

LT: Okay, that's okay. Did your wartime experience change you at all, do you think?

SA: It probably has, but I don't know how. I think every experience in a person's mind changes their personality some. Can't help it, but I wouldn't know how to dissect it.

LT: Okay. What can we learn, do you think, from the experience during World War II of Japanese Americans? What would you like other generations and other students in schools to know?

SA: I think the only thing I would say is just be yourself, whatever guides you, that's about all they can do. I don't think the wartime experience instilled any sudden change in my behavior.

LT: Okay. The Japanese Americans received redress, and Japanese American veterans, including you, received the Congressional Gold Medal, and much of that has happened because Nisei and Sansei have spoken out. So what are your feelings about being more outspoken? You said your family was quiet and they didn't really talk out, and they tended to accept things. What is your feeling now about speaking out?

SA: Oh, I think it's good that Sanseis are speaking up for the Niseis. I think Niseis still have that enryo syndrome, you know.

LT: I remember in 2001, there was a Veteran's Day program downtown in Hood River, and they dedicated a brick in honor of all Japanese American veterans. And during the speech, a comment was made, and it was published in the Hood River News. And you wrote a letter to correct that. Do you recall that?

SA: Vaguely. [Laughs] It was about the birthright or something like that? Yeah, I can't exactly remember. Probably wrote.

LT: So that was an example where you were correcting an error that was made by a commander who mentioned Nisei as "fighting for their adopted country," and you were very clear in your letter that this was your country of birth.

SA: Well, what do you mean by "adopted country"?

LT: Right, that was his statement.

SA: Oh.

LT: And you were correcting his statement.

SA: Oh, okay.

LT: So you have demonstrated a willingness to speak out and correct errors in the past.

SA: Yeah, very minute. [Laughs]

LT: A couple more questions. Your thoughts about the Yasui family and their role among Japanese Americans in Hood River?

SA: Did I talk about?

LT: I'm just wondering what you have, any thoughts that you have about the Yasui family and their role in Hood River?

SA: Oh, I thought they had, thinking about Mr. Yasui, I thought they had played a big role in developing the Japanese community, you know. Did I read about this in that book, Broken Twig?

LT: Stubborn Twig?

SA: Yeah. Mr. Yasui did a lot to help these farmers to get started, it sounded like.

LT: Any specific actions that you can think of?

SA: No, not really. But generally speaking, I think he was very helpful as an interpreter even, you know.

LT: Uh-huh, absolutely. So, Sab, what's important in life?

SA: I don't know what's important in life. Just keep going, just let your conscience be your guidance.

LT: Thank you very much.

SA: Thank you.