Densho Digital Archive
Manzanar National Historic Site Collection
Title: Ayako Tsurutani Interview
Narrator: Ayako Tsurutani
Interviewer: Richard Potashin
Location: Santa Monica, California
Date: February 5, 2010
Densho ID: denshovh-tayako-01

<Begin Segment 1>

RP: This is an oral history for the Manzanar National Historic Site. Today we're talking with Aya Tsurutani.

AT: Right.

RP: And Aya resides at 1204 Ashland Avenue in Santa Monica, California. The date of our interview is, it's February 5, 2010. And we'll be talking with Aya about her experiences as an internee at the Manzanar War Relocation Center during World War II as well as her relocation out of camp, and, with special emphasis on a visit from Ansel Adams in 1943. Our interviewer is Richard Potashin, our videographer is Kirk Peterson, and our interview will be archived in the park's library. Aya, do I have permission to record our interview?

AT: Yes.

RP: Thank you so much. It's a real honor to talk with you again and thanks for sharing your, your experiences with us. Where were you born and what was your birth date?

AT: I was born in San Francisco, California, May 6, 1913.

RP: And what was your given name at birth?

AT: It was Ayako Imai.

RP: Can you spell your last name for us?

AT: I-M-A-I.

RP: Do you know what your first and last name mean in Japanese?

AT: No, actually not. I asked my mother and she said "Ayako" meant morning glory or some -- that's what she told me. I'm not sure. But Imai, it is, it's not like my married name. Like Tsurutani is stork village or stork valley. But Imai, I don't think there is any.

RP: Did you have an English name at all?

AT: Anyone?

RP: Did you have an English name? Did somebody give you an English name?

AT: Well, they gave me Lucy. [Laughs] Which I'm not happy with so, but I used it during school and after I got out I changed it to Aya. So...

RP: So it was a little easier for, for the teachers to pronounce Lucy?

AT: Yeah, oh yes, definitely.

RP: Who named you Lucy?

AT: I think my father did. He gave my younger sisters better names than mine.

RP: Well speaking of your sisters, can you give me their names? Who was the first to come?

AT: Chiyo.

RP: And was she, how old, how much older was she?

AT: I think she's twelve years older than I was. And the next one was Mitsu or Flora and she had an English name, Flora. And she was nine years older than I was. And then the next was Rosa Yae, Y-A-E, and she was six years older than I. And then I had a sister that died in infancy, I think she was maybe five and a half, no, four and a half years older than I was, but I wasn't born so I didn't know her at all. Then I had a brother who was three years older than I was.

RP: What was his name?

AT: They called it Heiyu, which is a Japanese name but it had a meaning. I think he was born during Korean Gappai, I don't know what, well it's a, what's the translation for that. But it's spelled H-E-I-Y-U. I-Y-U and he changed it to Ted, gift of God, he said. And then, oh, then I came in. And my sister Vi, Viola, she was two years younger than I. And Helen Kimi was the youngest and she was four years younger than I.

RP: So, right, you had what, six sisters?

AT: Yeah.

RP: And one brother.

AT: Brother.

RP: He was outnumbered.

AT: He sure was. And he felt it too. [Laughs]

<End Segment 1> - Copyright © 2010 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 2>

RP: Tell us about your father. His, what was his name?

AT: His name was Tsunekichi, T-S-U-N-E-K-I-C-H-I. And he was a photographer.

RP: And where did he come from in Japan?

AT: In Yamaguchi-ken.

RP: And what type of photographer was he?

AT: A regular portrait. And I think he took a lot of pictures during the 1906...

RP: Earthquake?

AT: Yeah. Yeah, I think he did say... oh and he took another picture of, at the San Francisco beach which I think we have it right, hanging up on the wall there. And, a lot of people use that picture but they didn't know that he had taken it until my son traced it and had him, I don't know what, what book he was put in but...

RP: Did he have a studio?

AT: Studio, yes. Uh-huh. He had it added on to our house that we stayed at.

RP: And where did you live in San Francisco?

AT: On, you mean the street?

RP: The section of town. Did you live in--

AT: It was...

RP: -- the Japanese town?

AT: Yeah, it was the Japanese town, close to Japanese town.

RP: Do you remember the street?

AT: Yeah. It's 1950 Bush Street. I could even tell you the telephone.

RP: Oh you... go ahead.

AT: West-2156.

RP: Oh, we could go back there too.

AT: Well, I don't know if the house is still. I think it is but it was remodeled.

RP: Did your dad have any other type of work besides photography?

AT: Well, he was very interested in gardening. Not, you know... he started that what do you call... you know, the, the trees that's...

RP: Bonsai?

AT: Yeah.

RP: Oh he started a, a group?

AT: No, just on his own, uh-huh. So I know when he passed away a lot of the friends came and took, took all of those nice things. Yeah.

RP: Your mother, what was her name?

AT: Taki, T-A-K-I.

RP: And she was also from Yamaguchi?

AT: Yamaguchi-ken. Which is unusual for Japanese. Usually they marry from, from some other counties or whatever they call it.

RP: Do you know if, did your father go back to Japan to marry her or did she come here as a picture bride?

AT: No, I think they were married in Japan. And he came to America first and then I think she had a, my oldest sister then. She was the only one born in Japan. And he called for them.

RP: Did any of your brothers and sisters or you go back to Japan for schooling?

AT: No, no.

RP: Did any of your father or mother's family also come to America?

AT: No. Oh, just my mother's brother was in Canada. But I think he was the only one.

RP: Uh-huh.

<End Segment 2> - Copyright © 2010 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 3>

RP: What do you remember about growing up in San Francisco?

AT: Well, I knew I had a lot of friends. But we had a colored family living next door and a lot of Japanese families on the other, other side. And it just happened that my husband was born in San Francisco too, and he was born about four or five doors away.

RP: But you didn't know him then?

AT: No, I didn't anyway. 'Cause he was well almost five, five years older than I.

RP: Can you tell us a little bit about the Japantown in San Francisco?

AT: Well, I don't remember too much.

RP: Were there a lot of stores to shop at?

AT: Well there, yeah, on certain street there were. I don't know if you've heard of a Dave Tatsuno? Now he, they had a what they call it, dry goods store I guess. And then across the street there was another same type of store. There were a lot of grocery, meat market. I don't know. All I know is that the streets were very hilly. Especially the street next door to us, next block I mean to us, Buchanan Street.

RP: Did you have to take care of your younger sisters?

AT: Oh, we played together, I know that. And we were all about the same height at one time so people would ask us if we were triplets. [Laughs] But we got along well and to this day it's just my youngest sister is living now. And so I get to see her quite often, but she's ninety-two. So, so it's a race to see who will go first. She said she doesn't want to be the last one. And I said, well, I'm the oldest, so I'm supposed to go before her.

<End Segment 3> - Copyright © 2010 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 4>

RP: Did you go, were you sent to Japanese language school as a kid?

AT: Yes I did. I... gee I don't know how, I think from the time we started grammar school I think we were going or... it was only about an hour and a half but was right after... and my father was very strict about our coming home right after school. We used to spend time fooling around, and one time he locked all three of us out and we would, we were old enough to find the, that it was such a funny... and we would step on the, somewhere near the window and look in and see him eating alone. We thought that was so funny. [Laughs]

RP: How far did you go in Japanese school?

AT: Oh, I don't know what they call it. I mean, I knew they call it Koto Gakuen but I don't, it might be up to... it can't be a high school. I know my second older sister was very good in Japanese. Oh and the prince of Japan used to come, come to the school and only the best students -- of course I wasn't. I was not a good... but the good students were able to talk to them and get to meet them.

RP: That'd be your final exam, huh?

AT: Yeah.

RP: Talk to the prince?

AT: Yeah.

RP: So did your sister get that opportunity?

AT: No, when she got out she was already, I mean the prince, they didn't come to the school. This was much later during my age.

RP: So, was language school a chance to sort of be with your friends and things or did you take it seriously?

AT: Yes, we acted just like we would in the American school. But we learned a lot. We've forgotten, forgotten a lot too because most of the Isseis are gone and I don't have the opportunity to use my Japanese. But it comes back in certain words, although I have to look in the dictionary to make sure I'm using it in the right way.

RP: So did you speak Japanese at home?

AT: Well, that's, that was my father's... he wanted us to speak in Japanese. He was very strict in that way. Like when we had our meals we weren't supposed to talk and we'd have to put our hands on the table like this and then he'd... he was very strict in his Japanese way. And yet I think he wrote English and he could read English, not well, but he was able to. Oh, and he made us clean the house even when we were young and we all had certain duties we had to do like dusting and... he was a very, very strict person.

RP: How about your mom? What do you remember about your mom?

AT: Oh, she was really... well, in the Japanese way he, I don't say he beat her but he was very strict with her. And as I told my other sisters, he never spanked me so also my younger sister said her, father spanked her when she says, "So's your old man." She says she got a spanking at that time. But I don't ever remember being spanked.

RP: Where did you go to school, grammar school in San Francisco?

AT: It's called Redding grammar school. It was quite a ways to walk. I imagine about six, seven blocks, which we did it every day. But the Japanese school was very close. It's sort of half a block away, half a block or one block away.

RP: How about... was religion a part of your upbringing?

AT: Yes. Most Japanese are Buddhist but my mother took Christianity so we went to the Methodist Japanese church and we were all christened at the same time as my mother.

RP: Uh-huh. Did your mother or father encourage you to take up any arts or crafts, music? Was that a part of your life early?

AT: Well, he brought the piano for us. Piano, and then I took lessons for a short time. But I think I was the only one that took the lessons. Well, there's too many of us. They couldn't afford those extras. And then we helped with... my father passed away early so we all had to go to work right after high school, worked right away, so there weren't many chances for other, you know...

RP: Hobbies and...

AT: Hobbies, yeah.

RP: How old were you when your father passed away?

AT: I think I was a junior in high school so, yeah, so I was seventeen I think. But my oldest two sisters were already married. So...

RP: And where did you graduate high school?

AT: In Galileo High School, that's in the Italian district.

RP: Uh-huh. So you went to school with a lot of different other, different ethnic groups?

AT: Yes, but we'd sort of stuck with the Japanese. Mostly because we lived in the same neighborhood.

RP: So you didn't have very many Caucasian friends?

AT: Well, I had little boys that used to chase me. [Laughs] When they were (five, six years old) I remember one boy gave me a little celluloid kewpie doll. So, so I guess we could say we had, because in the neighborhood there was some Caucasians and so...

<End Segment 4> - Copyright © 2010 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 5>

RP: And you, what did you do after you graduated high school? You said you went to work?

AT: Yes, uh-huh.

RP: What was your first job?

AT: It was a first and only job. I was, I was there 'til I got married so that was six years as a bookkeeper.

RP: For a...

AT: It was a Japanese exporting and importing company. It was supposed to be one of the big, could have been the biggest one in San Francisco.

RP: And how did you meet Henry?

AT: Well, through dances I guess. 'Cause we used to have dances quite often on weekends. And used to go maybe two times a month, or anyway, quite often. Yeah.

RP: And you liked to dance?

AT: Yeah. I did. [Laughs]

RP: So what did you think of him when you first saw him?

AT: Well, I never... the funny part is he knew our family very well because they lived in San Francisco 'til he was about seven I think. And I was sitting on the step outside reading a book and he was already in college. He had just started and I think I was about fifteen or something. Anyway, he came up and he says, "My, you've grown." Then he went away into the house to see my mother. So I never thought I'd be going around with him and he was afraid he would be called a cradle snatcher. [Laughs]

RP: So when did you get married?

AT: Where?

RP: When?

AT: When? In 1937, October.

RP: And where?

AT: In this Methodist church that, that I belonged to.

RP: In San Francisco?

AT: Yes. Uh-huh.

RP: And you said he had, he had gone to college. Where did he go?

AT: He went to the UC Berkeley, the Boalt Hall, for his law degree. He went to UCLA here, I mean, in L.A.

RP: So he had moved down here to go to UCLA and then he moved back to the...

AT: No, he was already in the, living in Ocean Park, Santa Monica. So, that's why he went to UCLA. and then went to Berkeley for his law degree.

RP: Do you remember your honeymoon? Where did you go?

AT: Well, we were supposed to go to Canada. But we got as far as -- no, we went through Oregon. We went to Washington but we had a little accident I think in Oregon. So we couldn't get as far as Canada.

RP: Then you came back to live here in Ocean Park?

AT: Yeah, well, we came back to, I was living in San Francisco up until then. And so we went to Ocean Park.

RP: And did Henry, did you, did you buy a house?

AT: No, his folks owned a few houses in Santa Monica. So we were able to use one of the house.

RP: And he had a law practice --

AT: Yes, in Los Angeles. Yeah, he used to drive into L.A. every day.

RP: What type of law did he handle?

AT: Well, in those days there weren't many criminal cases among the Japanese. So he wrote up deeds and some divorces I guess. And oh anyway, general type, adoptions...

RP: So he predominately served the Japanese American community?

AT: Yes, uh-huh. (...) He went to Japan for a year, this was before we got married, to learn Japanese, 'cause he lived among the (Caucasians) and his folks 'cause, well and they could understand and speak the English language so he had to go to Japan to learn the (Japanese) language.

RP: So he could, yeah, he could work with Isseis just as well as anybody else?

AT: You mean his Japanese?

RP: Yeah. He could...

AT: No. His family, they spoke English more than... a lot of Japanese families were like that. You know, with folks, some of them could understand and speak English. But like in our case my mother didn't speak any English so...

RP: And he, his office was in Little Tokyo?

AT: Yes, uh-huh. It was right in San Pedro and First Street.

RP: Do you recall spending time in Little Tokyo attending social events or...

AT: You mean in Little Tokyo? Well, there weren't that many events there in Little Tokyo. You know, most of them, like my husband belonged to a club and they were mostly businessmen. And we'd have an annual dance or something and it'd be outside of Little Tokyo.

RP: Was your husband involved with the Japanese American Citizens League?

AT: Yes, he was quite a bit, but that was before we got married. And I know he was chairman of the (Nisei Week), I don't know what you call that, well, in the Nisei Week, I know he was chairman of that. So he was quite active. But...

<End Segment 5> - Copyright © 2010 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 6>

RP: What do you recall about December 7, 1941, the day that Pearl Harbor was bombed?

AT: Oh, I was in the house listening to the radio and that's when I heard it. So I went up and next door to my in-laws and told them about. 'Course, they didn't believe it. And then my husband was out playing golf and he said they all left. It was such a shock. But when he used to write to me when he was in Japan, he said the way things looked he thought we'd be seeing another war. Of course he didn't think of Japan, but what he was hearing and reading about Germany, I think that... 'cause this was in 1935. So he sensed it, you know, that there would be another war.

RP: Do you recall the Depression years, the '30s?

AT: Yes, uh-huh.

RP: And did that impact your, your husband's business?

AT: It sure did. Yeah, he told me we'd starve for two years. I think if the war didn't come we might have been starving even longer. [Laughs]

RP: Did he take other work during those years?

AT: No, he did not. But it was only... he started in '35, no, that's when he came back from Japan. So it must have been '36 or something. I worked for a little while after, but the business went broke so... and then I was pregnant with Bruce.

RP: Do you remember after Pearl Harbor, the roundup of many Issei community leaders, priests and language people? The FBI coming and taking people away?

AT: Well, I heard that, you know, that a lot of people were worried. They told us to get rid of everything that's written in Japanese or even pictures. My mother had a big picture that my father had taken of the prince in the Golden Gate Park. And that was, she gave it to the consulate right away. And there were many others, but I think when she had to get out of, out of the house, she had to get rid of them or store them, store them at the church I think. And I think they were, they were broken into and a lot of the things were gone.

RP: Was your mother still in San Francisco?

AT: Yes, uh-huh. Because my two sisters and my brother weren't married at that time.

RP: So do you remember any, how life changed for you after the war started?

AT: No, not really. We still went to visit my sisters, although we were, had a curfew. I think they said it was eight o'clock. It might have been nine, but I can remember it as eight. And then when we had to pack, there were the blackouts, and so we had a hard time packing 'cause we couldn't see what we were doing.

<End Segment 6> - Copyright © 2010 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 7>

RP: When you, when you found out that you would have to leave Ocean Park...

AT: Yes, uh-huh.

RP: How did that affect you?

AT: Well, it was kind of scary of course, and we didn't know where we were gonna go. Although the people across the street, especially the Italians, they were very, they were almost weeping when we left. Because we felt the Italians and the Germans should have been taken out too, not just us. But I guess they felt that too, yeah.

RP: And how about your husband's reaction? He was a lawyer and he knew, you know, law and...

AT: Yeah, yes, but he took it well. He says it's something that we can't fight or...

RP: What arrangements did you make to store personal property or I imagine your in-laws had to leave as well, and what about the, the three homes they owned?

AT: Yeah, well they had a garage underneath their house so all our things were stored in there. And then my father in-law found a friend in the, sort of a, she was kind of an old lady but had her stay in (their home) while the house that we stayed in was rented out. And she took care of that and to take, to look after her, my husband had a good friend, Caucasian friend, and he took our car and had his brother use our car while we were gone. And he looked over whatever this lady, Mrs. Diamond, had trouble with, she'd have to confer with this Caucasian friend. And he's the one that took our, brought our car into camp with whatever things that we wanted from out of our garage. And then I assume he went back by train I guess, or bus. Is there a train?

RP: So he brought your personal vehicle to Manzanar?

AT: Yeah, uh-huh.

RP: With...

AT: With all the...

RP: Items that you...

AT: Yeah, uh-huh. And we drove that to Washington, D.C.

RP: Where did, when you were at Manzanar, where was that car parked?

AT: I have no idea. I think his, this friend's brother was using it so he kept it in good condition.

RP: Do you remember what he brought up in the car for you? The items that...

AT: Yes. It was that October, October 17...

RP: Oh, for 1944.

AT: Yeah, '44.

RP: Oh I see. So he drove the car at that point --

AT: Yeah.

RP: -- and then you left.

AT: Yeah. And we left a few days after I think.

RP: So you, you were only allowed to bring suitcases that you could carry.

AT: Well, that's what they said. But we took a little more than... we got away with it.

RP: What did you, what did you pack with you to go to Manzanar?

AT: Oh, it was mostly clothes. Oh, and some blankets and things like that.

RP: Anything special?

AT: Well, his baby bed. You know, it could be folded up or something so they let us take it.

RP: And how old was Bruce at the time that you left to go to Manzanar?

AT: He was about thirteen or... thirteen months I think. Uh-huh. And then in those days we sterilized bottles so I took all that sterilizer things. I don't really remember what we took. I think though it was mostly clothes.

RP: Did you know that you were going to Manzanar?

AT: No. I don't think anyone knew.

RP: So when you got to camp, I think you, did you travel by train there?

AT: You mean to Manzanar? No, it was a bus.

RP: And where did you --

AT: Meet?

RP: -- meet to go...

AT: It was in Venice. I think that building is still there. It's an odd-shaped building. So every time we pass we say, "That's where we left."

<End Segment 7> - Copyright © 2010 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 8>

RP: What were your thoughts when you were on the bus going to Manzanar? Do you remember what...

AT: It didn't really bother me 'cause I said, well, they must have a place for us. I mean, you can't just go someplace where there's nothing so...

RP: And so when you saw the camp for the first time...

AT: Yes. It was kind of a shock. But there were already people that we knew there. They were waiting for us to come so, so there wasn't that bad. And only thing is we had to, they had to get the cots ready and get the, they said something about filling the mattress with straws or something. Yeah. And one thing, we didn't have to cook. So for the women it was, it was pretty good that way, no cooking. Just watching over our kids.

RP: And you were assigned to what block?

AT: Eighteen. 18-1-2. Eighteen is the block. One is the first building in the block. And the 2 is the room. So we were in the first room they used for the, I don't know what, what you call it. It was sort of an office for the whole block.

RP: The block manager?

AT: Yeah. Block, yeah. And my husband was the block manager.

RP: When he first got there?

AT: Yeah.

RP: Was he assigned to that?

AT: Yeah.

RP: And do you remember what some of his responsibilities were as a block manager? What did he have to do?

AT: Well, they kept the toilet paper there. [Laughs] My son would love to go there. He said, "I'm gonna go get the toilet paper." [Laughs] And I guess whatever problems people had, they would go to the block manager. If like maybe the stove that they had set in there wouldn't work, things like that.

RP: Sort of like a troubleshooter?

AT: Yeah.

RP: He'd try to solve the problem?

AT: I think so. Uh-huh.

RP: Now, it was yourself, Henry, Bruce, and, and then your...

AT: And then another family, this Uyeda family, he has some, a store in Little Tokyo now. I think he had it before that too. Yeah.

RP: They were in the barrack room with you?

AT: Yeah, with two daughters, two a little younger than, no, older than my son.

RP: Kind of crowded in there.

AT: It was for one room. Yeah, I guess it would be a little bit bigger than this room.

RP: And your husband's in-laws also...

AT: No, they were in the next, they didn't put us together. They were put in... just a couple and then their family with two children too, they were grown children, high school aged children. So, yeah, well, maybe it's a good thing they didn't put in-laws together. [Laughs] There were no curtains or anything to divide the room so they, eventually they got screens. And the other family didn't stay as long as we did, they moved to another block.

RP: And Block 18 was mostly folks from Santa Monica, Venice?

AT: Venice, yeah, and West L.A.

RP: So you had a lot of acquaintances --

AT: Yes we did, uh-huh.

RP: -- and people that you were familiar with.

AT: A lot of people that my husband had business with too.

<End Segment 8> - Copyright © 2010 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 9>

RP: Your husband eventually was involved with the legal aid section of the camp.

AT: Yeah. Maybe, well, he heard they were taking these fellows to Idaho for work, but what they made weren't... they were charged so much a day for room and board, of course it was very small amount, but on the days the weather was bad they wouldn't be working and they still had to pay the room and board.

RP: So he went out on a agricultural furlough?

AT: Yeah. Uh-huh. I think he went two years.

RP: To... where did he go in Idaho?

AT: Rexburg or something. And they, when they were there they were able to go to other cities to shop and so he, he would get things that we need. Like he was able to get his, a little tricycle which everyone, every other child wanted to ride on. So he was lucky that way. And then after that he went to Ohio and worked in some kind of factory. I think it was a war or some, something for the war so he was cutting and using, he said it was boring but it, you know, it was easy work. And then I think Mr. Merritt got in touch with him or he got in touch with Mr. Merritt, I don't know. And told him, gave him a name, name of a person to contact in D.C. and that's how we ended up there.

RP: Oh, for the OSS?

AT: Yeah. Uh-huh.

RP: We'll talk about that a little more in a little while. I wanted to go back to camp again. You were involved in some of the activities of Block 18. You became the president of the Girls Club of Block 18.

AT: Well, we decided we should have some kind of activity. But I don't remember doing much. Well maybe because a lot of the people were beginning to move out of camp. And I know he didn't work as the president for very long either. They, like the boys were...

RP: Well, Henry was a president too?

AT: Yeah.

RP: Of what?

AT: Of this Barons, they called themselves Barons. I don't think we even named ours. But we decided to make... we had the little cloths which we printed our names and then stitched it so that we'd have everybody's name on that. I don't know if anybody finished theirs or not. I know mine is half finished.

RP: Did you put on any parties or events?

AT: They had it for the whole, not just... oh, there was a wedding that we went to. Just a friend, friend of ours in another block. I know we went there. And I know the younger kids had the dances in one of the halls, I know. They'd play that same music all the time. So sick of it. Oh, and they had movies.

RP: Outdoors?

AT: Yeah, out, yeah outside.

RP: Do you used to go and attend those?

AT: Yeah, I did. And one time when this bachelor friend moved into our (room), his friend came in and this boy was known to steal things. And so when I... he came to see his friend and then I think the same night I went to the movie and my wallet was gone. So, there are people like that too.

RP: And you never got it back?

AT: No. We couldn't accuse him 'cause we didn't see him take it or anything. But when he came I think must have seen it 'cause it was right in the open. 'Cause we had no, nothing to lock things.

RP: Did you eventually get any furniture in your room?

AT: Did we what?

RP: Did you, did anybody make any furniture that you could have in your barrack room?

AT: Oh, yes. Oh, just... we had a table. Now I don't know who made that. I know my husband didn't do any of that type of thing. But his father made that little chair. I don't know whether he made it for Bruce, but he gave it to us. But, oh, I know a lot of the men -- well I don't say a lot -- but some of the men made toys as like Christmas presents. I wished we had kept it but some of 'em made, my grandmother, his grandmother bought it for him. It was a train. So, I wished I had kept it. But I don't know what we did with it.

RP: You mentioned this bachelor came to live with you in the barrack?

AT: Uh-huh.

RP: Was he from another camp or from another block or...

AT: No, he came, he was in another block. All the bachelors were in, I think, in one section. So when this other family moved out, this bachelor friend of ours and then another Kibei bachelor moved in. So we had two young fellows.

<End Segment 9> - Copyright © 2010 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 10>

RP: Now your father worked... I'm sorry, not your father, but your husband worked closely with the administration. He was part of the administration --

AT: Yes, uh-huh.

RP: -- of the camp.

AT: On the legal side.

RP: And he worked under the project attorney?

AT: Yeah, Mr. Throckmorton.

RP: And did you have any relationships with any of the administration people?

AT: Yes, through my husband. There was Ed and B.B. Chester. They were teachers. And after they moved out and (when we moved back home), then we went to many of their parties. We were there when Ed passed away. And then buried, B.B. passed away too.

RP: Oh, the Chesters?

AT: Yeah, uh-huh. And then the Bruces. We kept contact with them. Of course they lived in some other state out east, I think. So it was by letters but.

[Interruption]

RP: This is tape two of a continuing interview with Aya Tsurutani. And Aya, we were talking about some of the staff people that you had social relationships with.

AT: Yes.

RP: Would you go down to the administration to have dinner with some of these folks or would they come up to have dinner with you?

AT: Well, I know my husband... I've never gone down there but through my husband I know we had dinner at one of the... firemen or something. I didn't get to know them too well.

RP: Were there parties that you attended at the staff's...

AT: No, it wasn't parties. It was just, they were inviting us for dinner or lunch. I guess they thought I'd really like real food. [Laughs] I know this Mrs. Throckmorten for lunch she served us waffles and melon, things that we, you know, we wouldn't get in camp ordinarily. I don't remember getting much, many different fruits in camp.

RP: What was your opinion of the food in the mess hall?

AT: Well, at first it was, it wasn't very good. Same thing every morning, mush. [Laughs] But it improved and then they learned how to make tofu I think. Then we got that. We were very happy about that. And then the, we were able to buy cake which we thought was very good. Then, food was improving.

RP: Did you go down to shop at the store?

AT: Oh, yeah, uh-huh, quite often. I don't remember what I went to buy, but I know I did. Well it was, we were way up on the hills so it was quite a walk, which was nice in a way.

RP: Did you take him with you?

AT: Yeah, we had a little wagon and pulled him in the wagon. Oh, and they started to have a, where we could get our hair done. And when he started kindergarten, well, it's not kindergarten, it's before kindergarten.

RP: Preschool?

AT: Preschool, yeah.

RP: And where was that located do you know?

AT: That was just a few, I think it was the next block, I think. It was very close to... we just had to walk straight across almost.

<End Segment 10> - Copyright © 2010 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 11>

RP: Do you remember the conflicts in camp between Kibeis and the Niseis?

AT: Yeah. We just heard that this Fred Tayama, who's a good friend of ours, was, I think he was hurt. Anyway they moved him out, out of the camp. In fact he was living right next, above us or was it the same... he might have been in the same block as ours, only up further.

RP: Fred Tayama?

AT: Yeah. And then, and then I think my husband heard something, I don't know who he heard it from, but they were gonna come after him since he had, with the Citizen League he had connection. So this one Kibei that was in the room with us came out and said that anyway, even if they come, he said, "I can't help you," you know, "I won't do anything." Well, this friend of ours who's a, he's a Nisei, he said, oh, he's really... he's got a stick someplace and he had it right besides his bed. He was willing to help my husband. But nothing happened. No one came around. Although we know that this one other fellow was in our block was saying something about my husband. But the wife, I think it's because she heard, she knew about that. She knitted something for me. You know, she thought maybe it'd help me. So... and she was the kind of wife that couldn't talk to, you know, say anything to her husband. But other than that I didn't hear much about the conflict.

RP: Do you, what do you recall about the riot that occurred?

AT: Yes, that's what they said was it must have taken someplace way down the, nowhere near our...

RP: So, your husband wasn't taken out of camp, was he?

AT: No, no. He wasn't.

RP: And nobody came looking for him?

AT: No, no.

RP: Did you feel any sense of threat or fear about...

AT: Well, I was kind of worried but I figured, well, it will turn out okay. And as it is, nothing happened.

RP: Did you know Mr. Ralph Merritt at all?

AT: Mr. who?

RP: Ralph Merritt, the director?

AT: No. No, I never had. I wished I had kept that letter that he wrote to my husband. I don't think I threw it away but I just don't know where I put it.

<End Segment 11> - Copyright © 2010 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 12>

RP: There were, in your barrack you said you occupied Room 2? And then your in-laws were in the next room?

AT: Yeah.

RP: Do you know who lived on the last unit?

AT: Yes, this family called the Andos. It was a widow with two daughters and a son. And I think they had a couple. When we first went into camp, every room had two families, I think, except the bachelors. They're put separately.

RP: Did you for any reason have to use the hospital or have medical service at the hospital?

AT: No, no surgery, but it just, I had a bad case of hay fever and so I went there to get a, some medicine that helped.

RP: Was that from all the hay in the mattress?

AT: (No). It's the one that my father-in-law planted right in front of the door.

RP: What, what was it he planted in front of the door?

AT: Gee, I knew the name at one time but I don't know what it is. It had a lot of pollen.

RP: Was it cosmos?

AT: Yes, that's what it was. That was really bad. I couldn't breathe at all. And I didn't like the idea of breathing through my mouth all night. So after I got the medicine I slept all through and (Bruce) was, he was yelling that he had to go to the bathroom. I just slept right through it. [Laughs]

RP: And your father-in-law had to tear out all the...

AT: Did I what?

RP: Your father-in-law tore out all the cosmos?

AT: My husband made him. And he wasn't, he was out, I think he was, might have been in Idaho, I don't know. So I had to bear with it by myself.

RP: Where was that, was there any other landscaping around your barrack?

AT: Yes, right behind, the back side, they put a lawn in there which made it very nice.

RP: Did you have any trees around too?

AT: I don't think I remember seeing many trees. 'Cause between the barracks is that road. So the, they couldn't plant anything there.

RP: Uh-huh.

AT: But the Japanese are, a lot of them are gardeners and so they made it livable anyway.

RP: Uh-huh. And we talked about the mess hall. Did, did you eat, did all of you eat together --

AT: Yes, uh-huh.

RP: -- when you had meals?

AT: We could eat in other mess halls if you wanted to but usually the same people went to the, the one closest to their, to them.

RP: How about the restrooms? They were called latrines? The bathrooms?

AT: Well, at first they had no partitions. No, just, just open toilets and even the shower was just a open space. Although, oh, I think it was later that they had those Japanese baths where they soaked. But I don't, it's just the Isseis, the older people I think used those. But the women hated the showers and a lot of them had their underwear on while they took the... I don't think they ever partitioned it. As long as I remember it was just --

RP: The showers?

AT: -- open. Yeah. The shower.

RP: How about the toilets?

AT: Yeah they... but I don't remember them putting doors on it. They just were partitions. And then at night when you have to go, it's quite a ways. You have to walk up the hill and it's cold. So I think some people had cans in their rooms so they didn't even have to go out.

RP: And you lived in Block 18 and right above you was a guard tower. Do you remember that?

AT: I don't remember seeing a guard tower although the pictures all show them. I remember a plane fell right, very close to... see, we were in, was it 18? I guess we were the one above, above the fence, near the fence. 'Cause I know we all rushed to see and wasn't there a sort of a, I don't know whether you'd call it a school or something, for the people that wanted to fly planes. Something across the...

RP: It was an airport.

AT: Oh, an airport. Oh, is that what it was? Oh. I never got to see it so I, I don't know what...

RP: Did that plane crash inside the camp?

AT: No, outside, just out, very close to the edge though. So we were able to see if he was really hurt. I think he was hurt badly. And some of us were afraid it was gonna crash into our, you know, barracks.

RP: Did you attend any church in the camp?

AT: No. No. I think they, or did they? I don't know whether they had it real early. I think it was built a little later.

<End Segment 12> - Copyright © 2010 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 13>

RP: You had a visit, I believe he showed up in camp in 1943, that was Ansel Adams.

AT: Did I...

RP: The photographer.

AT: Did I what?

RP: Ansel Adams showed up in Manzanar in 1943?

AT: Yeah.

RP: Uh-huh. And, how did he end up coming to your barrack?

AT: Well this lady that we knew lived in another camp, I mean, another block. She came over to tell us that Adams would want to come to take our picture. She arranged it, and she had two of her daughters' pictures taken by him.

RP: And do you remember her name?

AT: Yes, Yae Nakamura. Her husband, he was, I think he, he wasn't an architect. Anyway, they were good friends of ours.

RP: And, and so tell us about, about how, how that photograph took place. Mr. Adams came into your room?

AT: Yeah, our room, he just looked around. Just took the picture right away. Yeah. And then, as I say, his wife took his picture standing on the door, doorway, Bruce.

RP: I was gonna go ahead and have her show the photograph.

AT: Yeah, I say, gee he's gotten old. [Holds up photo album]

RP: So did it take him a while to get you positioned where he wanted you?

AT: No, not, not very much.

KP: Okay, thank you.

RP: Can you get this one too?

[Close-up of smaller photo.]

RP: That's Bruce.

KP: Okay. Can you tilt that a little bit more toward me? There you go. Right there. And who took that picture of Bruce?

RP: Aya?

AT: Huh?

RP: This picture of Bruce, who took that one?

AT: If I remember, it was Mrs... I don't think he took it. I know he took this picture, the family picture, but I'm pretty sure it was Mrs. Adams.

RP: And one of the reasons he took that picture was, picture was...

AT: I don't know anything about it. All I know is my husband took care of all that so I was really surprised to get a copy.

RP: And your son had a --

AT: Would have what?

RP: -- special day. Wasn't that a special day for your son?

AT: Yeah, it was day, uh-huh. I don't know if we did anything. In camp I guess it was pretty hard to... he was too young to know what birthday means.

RP: So he, when he, he took that picture on his third birthday?

AT: Yeah. Third. And then we left camp fairly, oh, that same year we left.

RP: What did you think of Mr. Adams?

AT: Well, I didn't really... he was very friendly. And he sure know, knew his business. 'Cause, 'cause it didn't take him very long to seat us and take the picture. I guess he's more used to taking scenery pictures rather than...

RP: Did he send you a copy of his book or did you purchase a copy of it?

AT: We, I think my daughter purchased it for us. I know other people that have purchased it too. And that picture has been in so many, in the Times, New York Times, it was in there. And it was in this, what is it, well I know Rafu Shimpo and in San Francisco it was in the San Francisco paper. And then this one, gee, I don't remember it, it was some other religious paper I think. Then, anyway, people have been, would send us copies.

RP: Whenever they see it, see it they send it.

AT: Yeah. I was surprised that it was in the New York Times.

RP: So you got around?

AT: Yeah. [Laughs] I did.

RP: So when you look at that picture now, what does it, what do you think about or what do you feel?

AT: I don't know. It looks so different. But, to me, camp wasn't a real bad place, you know, where you... I know there's some people that just can't forget it. But I never think about it unless someone brings it up. 'Cause it just doesn't, you know, occur to me to think about things like that. I'm just happy with... maybe that's why I live so long. And here I thought I, if I lived to be eighty I though gee, that's about the limit. I don't, I hope I don't live to be much over a hundred. [Laughs]

<End Segment 13> - Copyright © 2010 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 14>

RP: So your husband went out to Washington?

AT: Yeah.

RP: And was hired by the OSS?

AT: Yeah. Uh-huh.

RP: And did you follow him to Washington?

AT: Yeah. Well, we went on that car, the...

RP: The car.

AT: Yeah. And the first night we stayed with the Bruces. And she gave us dinner and then, and Bruce says, "Where's the geta?" [Laughs] He thought we'd take a shower with the geta on. And then I think they loaned us a mattress 'cause we couldn't take any of that. Oh, and then, oh every so often we'd visit them. And they'd invite us to dinner. I think one Christmas we shared the day with them. So it was nice.

RP: What was Mr. Bruce doing after he left Manzanar?

AT: He was working at the U.N. in San Francisco. And that's where my husband met him (again). And so they got together until, until my... no, I think Bill moved someplace else. And he finally divorced Henrietta and they had three really nice kids.

RP: And you lived in Virginia was it --

AT: Uh-huh.

RP: -- for a while?

AT: Was it Alexandria or... I think it was Alexandria. And it's just an empty apartment. We didn't, we didn't have any furniture so we had to use boxes. All we had was the bed. And I think that bed was from the Bruces, bed and the mattress. And at Christmas he, Bruce would see those trees with the decorations on it and he said he wanted a tree like that. And we didn't, we didn't have, we couldn't bring any of our decorations so we cut out pieces of the, from the soup bags, they had the little colored. We put that on... oh, and a neighbor, they were working with my husband's place too. So they had extra lights and they loaned us the lights for the tree. But the little decorations were little paper that we cut out. Yeah.

RP: And your husband was moved around a number of times.

AT: (Yes), they were there until (they were) moved to San Francisco. They were stationed in that one.

RP: In Washington?

AT: I guess they call it... not a... anyways it's a big house, estate I think, so. And then named Collingwood.

RP: And he was doing some kind of hush-hush work, wasn't he?

At: Yeah. Uh-huh. Well, I had an idea what it was.

RP: What was it?

AT: I think it had something to do with radio and... well, they didn't have television then. But I think he's really a lot of... he helped on the English section and there were a lot of other people that did the Japanese. And I don't know how they took the pictures here, how they knew about it.

RP: Right. And he eventually was sent to Japan?

AT: Yeah.

RP: To work there?

AT: Uh-huh. Those... I don't know, I don't think the whole section was sent but they just took certain people. And then he said that he talked to all different types of people.

RP: Was he interpreting too there?

AT: (Interviewing).

RP: Did he ever end up in Hiroshima?

AT: Yeah. He took pictures. I mean, he had pictures taken there.

RP: Just after the bomb was dropped?

AT: Yeah, uh-huh. We went to Japan in '85 or maybe we, maybe it was the American people, tour, and they were afraid to go to Hiroshima. We didn't want to go there so none of us went there. These Caucasians had gone there before. They said they didn't speak to them but they, they felt pretty bad. And we felt sorry for them so we didn't want to go. In fact, even Hawaii we felt so bad that we hated to go to Pearl Harbor so we never went there. So, I guess war is not a pleasant place.

<End Segment 14> - Copyright © 2010 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 15>

RP: And eventually you ended up back in Los Angeles?

AT: Uh-huh.

RP: And did Henry pick up his law practice again?

AT: Yeah. He did, right. And it was much better for him after the war. So, there were a lot of people with problems.

RP: Were there, would he have had a number of Japanese American clients?

AT: A lot of what?

RP: A lot of Japanese American legal cases involving --

AT: Yeah, I think so.

RP: -- property and, and...

AT: And I think a lot of people that had said "no-no," they were sent to Japan and they wanted to come back here, he worked with this Wirin, have you heard of Wirin? He's an attorney.

RP: Oh A.L. Wirin?

AT: Yeah, he worked with him.

RP: Oh. He did?

AT: They were able to come back 'cause they didn't, they were forced, some of them were forced to join the Japanese army I think. But I don't know whether they actually served or not. But they were able to come back, so I guess things were okay.

RP: So, he might have been able to get them reinstated as citizens?

AT: Yeah, uh-huh.

RP: 'Cause they had joined the Japanese army or they had voted in a Japanese election?

AT: Yeah.

RP: And some, some people, "no-no" people went to Tule Lake and renounced their citizenship.

AT: Yeah. They did.

RP: So...

AT: Yeah.

RP: So he a was pretty busy guy.

AT: Yeah, he was. So everything turned out okay I guess.

RP: Did he kind of pick up with the JACL again after the war? Was he involved in that?

AT: No, because there were much younger people than those that started it.

RP: Was he also a social activist too supporting other causes and other groups?

AT: Yeah, uh-huh. Well, he was not so much that as political. He was with, I forgot who he was... anyway he was busy as a, as a Republican. I think they had a Japanese group of Republicans and he started that I know.

RP: Did he ever run for office at all?

AT: No, no. I'm glad, I'm glad he didn't. [Laughs]

RP: You would have never seen him.

AT: It was a funny thing that when I first learned to vote I didn't know who to vote for but I picked Republican and it turned out that he was, he had been a Republican from way back too.

RP: You were meant for each other.

AT: Yeah. I think so. Yeah.

<End Segment 15> - Copyright © 2010 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 16>

RP: Did your, going back to camp, did your in-laws work in camp?

AT: No. They, my father in-law was retired already so he didn't do any work. And my mother, mother in-law, I have a feeling she worked in that... what they... I don't know what you call it. What they make for protection.

RP: Camouflage nets?

AT: Yeah. I think she did. I'm not too sure. She was just worried about her son being in the service but he was with that language school so I don't think he ever went overseas.

RP: You're talking about Henry's brother?

AT: Yeah.

RP: Uh-huh.

AT: Uh-huh.

RP: And, he came to visit too at Manzanar?

AT: Yeah, he came couple a times, yeah.

RP: And was he an instructor at the language school?

AT: No, I think he, he couldn't have been, his Japanese would have been awful. Yeah.

RP: What was his name?

AT: James, Jimmy.

RP: Jimmy.

AT: Yeah.

RP: Did he Henry have other siblings besides James?

AT: No. Just the two of them. Yeah.

RP: Just the two. Was Henry involved at all in the effort to get redress?

AT: No. I think he was too busy with his own work.

RP: And how long did he work as a lawyer?

AT: Oh maybe, he was in his eighties. And he, actually he quit that. He was doing tax, you know all these farmers around here, they all needed help so he, I think he quit that around, in his nineties. But I told him to quit because I was helping him type those forms and so I thought it was time he took it easy.

<End Segment 16> - Copyright © 2010 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 17>

RP: Did you have any thoughts about that redress or the apology that the U.S. government issued?

AT: No. You mean talk to other people?

RP: How did you feel personally when you got an apology letter and a check?

AT: It was, I was happy with that. Even the children, anybody that was... only thing is a lot of people lost out because they passed away. All my sisters, yeah, I think... I don't remember now. I know my brother got it. But, 'cause he lived to be ninety-seven, eight. No, ninety-seven or eight.

RP: We didn't talk about your, the rest of your family. What happened to them during the war?

AT: They were all in different camps.

RP: Where were they?

AT: My two, two of my sisters were in Poston, Poston I, I think. And then this one family in Heart Mountain is it? Heart Mountain, Wyoming. And my mother and my brother and two sisters were in Topaz, that's Utah. So we were all...

RP: You were spread over four camps?

AT: Yeah, uh-huh. I think we were the first to go. Yeah, I think, I think we were. I know those that were in Topaz had to go to that horse, horse race place. They said it was sure smelly. No matter how much they cleaned they couldn't get the smell out, you know.

RP: So what was your most difficult experience at Manzanar?

AT: The camp? I don't know. My husband was with me all the time so it wasn't bad. And then I could speak Japanese so it was easy to talk to the people. Oh, and I guess not seeing my family, you know, being in different camps like that. That was I think the worst part of it.

RP: Do you have any other stories, Aya, about camp that you want to share with us?

AT: Oh, no, I can't think of anything else.

RP: Okay. Well, thank you very much.

AT: You're welcome.

RP: We appreciate what you shared.

<End Segment 17> - Copyright © 2010 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.