Densho Digital Archive - Clyde Taylor Interview

<Begin Segment 1>

RP: Okay, this is an oral history for the Manzanar National Historic Site. This afternoon we're talking with Clyde Taylor. And the interview is taking place at the Sacramento United Methodist Church on 6929 Franklin Boulevard in Sacramento. The date of the interview is December 16, 2009, and our interviewer is Richard Potashin, our videographer is Kirk Peterson, and our interview will be archived in the Park's site library. And, we'll be talking with Clyde about his years in Big Pine area, going to Big Pine High School and kind of framing the interview with his participation in the historic Manzanar High School, Big Pine High School football game of October 24, 1944.

CT: Long time ago.

RP: A long time ago. Thanks so much Clyde for taking some time to talk about your life today. Do you, can you give us permission to record our interview?

CT: Oh yes, surely.

RP: Okay, thank you very much. When and where were you born?

CT: In Hollywood, California, February the sixteenth, 1930.

RP: Uh-huh. And, is that where you grew up as well?

CT: No, shortly, I think I was three or, less no, about three or four years old and we moved to Oregon. It was sort of the Depression era then, too, in the '30s. And I believe my dad had a thousand dollar thing from the army. 'Cause he was in the navy. So he took that and bought a small place in Oregon and then we moved to that.

RP: Where in Oregon?

CT: Drain, Oregon was where I went to high school, oh no, grammar school, excuse me. And after grammar school we moved to Big Pine.

RP: Drain, Oregon, where is that located near?

CT: Approximately between Roseburg and Eugene. It was on 99 then but it's probably 5 now.

RP: Uh-huh. Can you describe that community to us a little bit?

CT: It was very remote. Trees, no running water, two-holer out in the back. Lots of chores, carry the water from the spring. Just a very, very remote area. It was out in the country.

RP: What did your father do for a living at that time?

CT: Cut wood and sold wood posts, cedar posts and wood to Yoncalla and Drain to people who lived there. And raise a garden and had some cows and a couple of horses and some goats and stuff like that. Just a regular old country farm.

RP: Uh-huh. What was that like for you growing up there?

CT: To me it was wonderful but I guess to the mom and dad it was sort of tough with not very much money, monetary stuff. But that was one of the best parts of my life. I was sorta small, I think I was eleven or twelve years old, twelve years old when we moved from Drain.

RP: Did you have chores on the farm there?

CT: Constantly.

RP: Like what?

CT: Oh, milking, feeding, gathering eggs, everything you had to do. Had to walk a mile to catch the school bus to go four miles to school. Stuff like that. And mostly it rained, a little bit of snow, but mostly rain in the winter.

RP: What did you do for fun?

CT: Fun?

RP: Yeah.

CT: I don't know. Everything seemed fun. I hunted, and I could go anywhere in the woods and nobody would bother me or ask me a question. Just so free, free growin' up part of my life.

RP: Who were your parents? Can you give us their names?

CT: Lynn Taylor and Anna Taylor.

RP: Okay. And where did they come from originally?

CT: Oh, my dad, he probably came over with the Mayflower. I don't know just when they... my mom, my mom, her father migrated from Czechoslovakia when he was seventeen. So it was in the early 1900s somewhere.

RP: Did you have any other siblings, Clyde?

CT: I have a sister and a half brother.

RP: What were their names?

CT: Patricia Taylor was the daughter, was my sister's name, and Thomas Marx was my half-brother's name.

RP: Uh-huh...

CT: Thomas Martin, I'm sorry.

RP: Were they older or younger than you?

CT: Sister was two years younger and the brother was ten years older. He's still alive. Sister has passed away.

<Begin Segment 2>

RP: Can you describe your parents to us and what you remember most about them in terms of their qualities and their personalities?

CT: Just hard-working, common people. I think my dad went to the fourth grade. My mom graduated from a Catholic school in Missouri. But they got married anyway, so... in fact, he's a Methodist and my daughter and I are both Methodist too. All sort of a coincidence.

RP: We're at the Methodist church.

CT: Yeah.

RP: You said that you used to go out and hunt. What did, what did you hunt? Deer?

CT: Anything that moved almost, that was small enough to shoot. There was no, no license. Nobody... if you heard a shot, they just figured somebody just shot something. Just a free, free-wheeling community. The nearest neighbor was way down the road, probably a quarter of a mile. No neighbors the other way. So I had miles and miles of forest to hunt in.

RP: Do you, you mentioned the Depression years that you moved from California to Drain, Oregon, during the Depression. Do you, do you remember any experiences or what it was like to go through that time?

CT: Well, there wasn't any money for the kids especially. If they went to town and got a nickel, that was quite a bit. I think my dad got ten cents a post for cedar posts. And then maybe a dollar, dollar and a half for a tier of wood that he'd cut and haul in. So it was just a... the Depression to me didn't mean... I didn't know what a Depression was. I was having a good time even though I had to do my chores and stuff. But, no, it wasn't a bad time for me. I didn't remember it as a depression at all except from what they told me later on.

RP: What about, did you have a social life? Would you go into town occasionally?

CT: Oh yeah. My dad would haul the wood and he'd take me in and not much of it. And they had the, their quilting things that they're, I don't know what they call it, at a community center I think. I don't think they called it a community center but that's about what it was. And then the school had their different programs and the parents were always there.

RP: Where did you go to school, Clyde?

CT: Where? In Oregon I got through the seventh grade in Scott's Valley, it's in a little valley in between the Yoncalla and Drain. And I graduated from Drain Grammar School in Drain. And then from there?

RP: Well, let's stop right there and can you tell me what kind of student were you in school?

CT: Oh, pretty good, not bad. School always was important to me.

RP: You had this tremendous degree of freedom growing up there. Did you, did you ever get into any trouble with, with your parents? Wandering around or...

CT: No, no, no.

RP: No?

CT: No. It was the only place you wandered was out in the bushes. You didn't wander in town. Except from the eighth grade. Then into town, I got the little bit of the town fever. Once in a while we'd pick up a cigarette butt and get enough to roll a cigarette, you know, but yeah that's about it. Snuck into the movie theater once in a while. Cost us a dime to get in but we didn't have a dime. [Laughs] First job was a dime an hour.

RP: Where was that?

CT: In Drain. First real job. Getting wood stuff ready for a, for the motel. They built the fires, so I'd have to get the wood and the kindling and put it in the stove for the fire. It was a dime an hour. Cheapest job in town. That's probably why I got it.

RP: Who was your best friend growing up in Oregon?

CT: I couldn't answer that. I didn't bum around with anybody, I mean strictly a one on one. I got in a fight, the first day I got into the Oregon and the day before school started, into Drain, the town, was going to go. Got a big black eye and I had to go to school with a big black eye. [Laughs] That was a little embarrassing.

RP: What was the, if you can recall, what was the ethnic makeup of Drain and that area there?

CT: I couldn't say. It was... what do you mean by ethnic?

RP: Did you grow up with any Asian folks?

CT: No. One hundred percent white.

RP: Okay.

CT: And not even hardly any Indians in that part of the country. Just white, white all over. I don't think I saw my first black person 'til we took a trip from Big Pine to... no, from L.A. back East when I was real small. This is sort of a funny story. My sister and I were not very nice in the back seat of this old Chevy that my mom and her sister were driving back to Saint Louis to see their folks. And I was acting I guess not very good and they happened to see a black guy on the side of the road and my aunt says, "If you don't" -- my mother said this I think -- "If you don't be good you're gonna turn black just like that man over there." And that was my first impression of a black man. But, she didn't mean it in any derogatory manner. It was just trying to get me to be quiet and I think it worked. I told that to a friend, a black person workin' around our yard, and I told him, "Don't get mad at me. This is the way it happened." He laughed just as hard as I did. So, it wasn't bad.

<Begin Segment 3>

RP: Tell us about what you recall regarding December 7, 1941, the day that Pearl Harbor was bombed.

CT: I was in Oregon. I don't remember the actual day. I can remember it said we was in war and I was, where was I? December 7th? I'd be how old? '41 I'd be eleven years old. But I don't remember the day. I probably just forgot what I knew you know. But there is a little story involving that. They had different spots along the valley -- Scott's Valley was just a road going around -- and they had different spots where people would stay out and spot the airplanes going over. And the kids and everybody would take their turn. And I can remember we would have to get our binoculars and look at the plane and then their, folks would be up in the house and we'd have to run up there and tell 'em and they'd look and they'd bring the phone, you had to ring, turn the handle, ring the phone, and they'd get somebody and they'd tell 'em what we saw. And another little story on the side, I was about... let's see, mile, about two and a half miles up there to where we were, this other fellow and I, this other boy and I had our, what do you call it, station where we had to look. So, I was riding, I had a, we had a little heifer, not a little one, a pretty big one, so I don't know why I didn't ride our horse, maybe we didn't have a horse then, but I rode that heifer up there, up and back. I learned one thing though. Don't tie 'em up with a rope because they poop on the rope and then when you gotta get ready you gotta roll up the rope, put it on there, and then go home. That's a mess. [Laughs]

RP: So, about this job that you had spotting the planes, did you do that, how long did that go on?

CT: I can't remember. I can remember two or three times going there, maybe more, but I, that's all.

RP: Did you have a chart or a list of Japanese planes?

CT: No. Just anything that went over we'd holler and just tell 'em what went over, what we saw.

RP: Oh, so you...

CT: We didn't know one plane from another anyway, just pretty young then.

RP: So you just physically described the aircraft?

CT: Yes, yes.

RP: Did you write notes down or you just...

CT: No, we, this, the house was a little bit away from where we were and we'd just run and tell them and that would be it, our duty would be done.

RP: That was a little bit of excitement though.

CT: Yeah. Yes, it was. Not really excitement. We didn't grasp everything then. Maybe because we weren't afraid of it being so remote that anything would happen.

RP: How far were you from the coast, the coastline?

CT: Oh, I'm going to guess, thirty miles maybe. Not too far. No balloons fell over though, flew over.

RP: Did you, you heard, you heard about that story about one of the, the bomb that was dropped, I think it was south of Roseburg? A bomb dropped from a plane that I think was launched from a Japanese submarine off shore. A bomb fell, sat there for a while, and a family was out on a picnic one day...

CT: Then found it later?

RP: Found it and...

CT: Yeah I vaguely remember something like that. That's been recently that they found it?

RP: No, this was, I believe it was '43 or...

CT: Oh, okay.

RP: It might have been after you came to Big Pine.

CT: Could have been 'cause I think we moved to Big Pine in... thirteen, '42, probably 1942. 'Cause I started Big Pine High when I was twelve.

<Begin Segment 4>

RP: So what, what brought the family to Big Pine?

CT: Well, my father had asthma and he had to, the Oregon he wasn't doing too well in that position and he had a brother lived in Big Pine. And I don't know if his brother asked him to come or he just came to, because his brother was there. But he found he had a job and he moved to Big Pine and we moved down later on afterwards. And then he came back to Oregon and got everything squared away. But with the asthma he was gone a lot of the time. 'Cause sometimes when there wasn't any work or he couldn't make a living doing what we were doing, he had to go get a job in a mill or something away from home. But that was expected.

RP: What were your, was Big Pine a little larger or smaller community than...

CT: Actually smaller.

RP: Uh-huh.

CT: But the people were all about the same, friendly, nice people. Lot of 'em were Indians, though. I had never seen an Indian before that either. I remember the first time my sister and I, we saw an Indian walking by, we hid underneath in the back seat of the car. We were scared. [Laughs] Well, we didn't know. Maybe they had arrows. We didn't know.

RP: Yeah. So some of the stereotypes dropped away.

CT: Oh yes, yes. In fact some of 'em, when I went to Big Pine High there's lots of Indians there. Lots of friends were Indians.

RP: Can you give us, share a few names with us?

CT: Lucille Cyrus, I can't off the top of my head I can't remember their name. But there's a whole bunch of 'em. I don't have anything with me to...

RP: It's okay.

CT: I just can't remember the names. They're plain as day. I can visualize them, but I can't get the names to say what they were, their names were.

RP: Uh-huh. So you started junior high school in Big Pine.

CT: Yes.

RP: And can you recall how many students, what was the enrollment of that school at that time?

CT: Well, the grammar school was downstairs and the high school was upstairs. But to me it was quite a few, but it was less than the Drain, quite a bit less. No, I can't answer that. Not very many. I think our graduation was a little bit, little bit heavier than usual because some of the guys had started coming back from the service, the ones that were wounded and everything. They're on that, that sheet from, we brought that. Let's see it. Lisa, hand that to me please?

Off Camera: That one?

CT: No, the regular, inside more. [Looks at a piece of paper.]

RP: Oh, a program.

CT: This is... well, our, our varsity, our big varsity high school team was one, two, three, five, seven, eight, nine, ten people. No, six, seven, eight, nine people, three substitutes and that was our total football team.

RP: That was your team?

CT: And two of those, at least I know one of 'em was guys that came back from the service. Maybe two guys came back from the service on the team.

RP: Hmm. Yeah, we'll talk about that in a little bit.

CT: Yeah, just, just you asked for size. That's about the...

RP: That's great. Yeah.

<Begin Segment 5>

RP: So, did you, did you get involved in sports right away when you got into school there?

CT: Get involved with what?

RP: Did you get involved with sports in school immediately?

CT: Pretty much, yes.

RP: Uh-huh.

CT: As much as I could. I played basketball in grammar school and basketball was about all. But I got a letter from them from Drain. I don't know what it means. A small school, but it was a lot larger than Big Pine. And I got letters all the time in Big Pine for what it's worth.

RP: Uh-huh. So when did you start playing football at Big Pine?

CT: Probably freshman year, but I'm not sure.

RP: With such a short, a small enrollment, you almost had to.

CT: Yeah, you, you didn't have to be very good to get on the team. [Laughs]

RP: Did you always, did you always play six man team?

CT: That's all we had. We didn't have any, we didn't have enough people for a seven man or eleven man. As I said six, and we only had nine people countin' our subs. So we couldn't go the other way.

RP: Yeah. So who did you compete against in...

CT: All the, all the valley, up and down the valley.

RP: And you...

CT: Bishop would be the north and there's a town in the desert way down south, you probably know the name better than I know.

KP: Ridgecrest?

CT: Pardon?

KP: Ridgecrest?

CT: No, not Ridgecrest. But I think it's...

RP: Rosenmond?

CT: Say it again?

RP: Rosenmond?

CT: No.

RP: Lancaster?

CT: No, that far.

RP: Not that far. Hm.

KP: Mojave? Olancha?

CT: No, further, further up.

RP: Lone Pine?

CT: Further down. [Laughs] It's sort of in between the... I know we played them. They didn't have a field, just a dirt field.

RP: Did they?

CT: Yeah, we beat 'em.

RP: Oh.

CT: Probably the only team we ever beat. No, no, we beat a lot of 'em.

RP: Well, in talking to you earlier you said that you had a, you had quite a good season that year. You beat everybody but Bishop.

CT: I don't know.

RP: Which was the powerhouse, right?

CT: No, no, well, we were all pretty dedicated, the ones that played. But if the, if the game was on the first day of fishing season or first day of hunting, you had to scrounge around get enough people to go on the football field. They, everybody was, they came first. Steel, the hunting and the fishing season was before any game. So that, but they were all dedicated sportsmen. They didn't like to lose. No, we beat our share of the games in the valley that's for sure, except Bishop. I don't know if we ever beat them or not.

RP: And so you started out playing quarterback?

CT: I was trying to remember myself. I was thinking about this. Buddy Lund was quarterback in that game on here. And he and I were in the same class, about the same caliber of player. But I think I was quarterback for a couple a years. I know one year for sure and I think a couple years. Funny how it gets away from you but I can't remember. Terana? The name of that town?

KP: Trona.

RP: Trona, that's it.

CT: Say it. Trona, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's it.

RP: That would be the only town around there that could have had a high school.

CT: Yeah, that's why we beat them that day I remember. They didn't have a field. They just had rocks and that's about it, a little bit of sand between the rocks. One of their people got hurt that time, too. I don't know how badly.

RP: So most of the fields that you played on in the valley were, were they dirt or grass?

CT: No, no, no. They had their turf. We had a nice turf in Big Pine. Bishop had the best probably. I think Lone Pine had a nice... Independence? I don't remember playing football Independence but we might have. I don't, just don't remember.

<Begin Segment 6>

RP: Who was your coach?

CT: I can remember one. And he was the only one who was a regular coach, Mr. Knowles. He had one arm gone. Did that ever come up in any of your research?

RP: No.

CT: You didn't want to make a mess around too much with him. He was pretty tough. I think he used to play with somebody. And Rowland Fansler and I, we got an invite to go to Texas Tech on a, on a...

RP: Scholarship.

CT: Scholarship. But neither one of us was interested. We didn't ever follow it up at all, period. It just didn't, didn't appeal to us. But Rowland was a pretty big guy. Two-sixty, somethin' like that.

RP: Yeah, hmm. So you did get a football scholarship.

CT: Well I don't know. We just had that, that coach, Knowles, he, he...

RP: Helped...

CT: Yeah. He asked us we wanted to go apply for it or go down there, I don't know if we would have got it or not. But I, he put us in for it. Maybe yes, maybe no. But none of us, we didn't do anything about it, period. We wasn't interested.

RP: You said, was there another coach, too?

CT: Insignificant. I don't, I can't remember another one. I think it's... principal was a coach one year and Greers. But I can't remember another one.

RP: The gentleman who was doing a little research on this football game mentioned to me that there was a, a coach who was a minister in town?

CT: That what?

RP: Who was a minister in town, in Big Pine?

CT: Daily or Daly or somethin' like that? Yeah, it makes sense. But I don't remember his personality or anything about him.

RP: How about Mr. Knowles, what else, what else do you remember about him?

CT: Well the main, one time when the Rams were playing -- the Rams were L.A. I think at that time, and I don't know, I don't think, I don't think San Francisco had a team then -- but the Rams were playing somebody and he got us all together. By a couple a farming trucks and people's cars and everything. And he knew somebody in L.A. I think he was from that area. So we got to, to stay in their houses and in sleeping bags and stuff and he took us to the coliseum. Wyatt Tittle I think was playing then, I believe. We saw him and there's only, and that stadium held a hundred thousand people I believe. And there's probably about oh maybe a thousand there in the whole game. There wasn't hardly anybody. Because professional football wasn't much of anything then. We did see, well, you could just follow the ball up. You didn't have to try the binoculars or anything. You just follow it up in the stands. So I remember he got us there. That was one of the things that he had done. And everybody appreciated it. Not, he didn't take just the football team but he took a lot of the class, people that wanted to go also. So that was a neat thing.

RP: Did you also get into hunting and fishing in the, in the Owens Valley, Eastern Sierras?

CT: Oh yes. Fishing especially. Hunting, hunting, too. But fishing was a longer season. Yeah, I had a job so I missed out a lot of the hunting.

RP: Where did you work?

CT: At the Standard station. Jimmy Nicholas? Worked for him for three years I think.

RP: Seems like everybody worked for him at one time.

CT: Well, not everybody. I think I was the only kid that worked there for three years I was going to school, goin' to high school. And the reason I, one of the reasons why I got, got, that I quit was (Wayne) Dewieze, or I think it was Dewieze, no I won't say that. I don't know. I can't remember. But one of the guys that was in the service, was workin' for him when he went in the service, and he had to give him back his job, and he wanted to anyway. Excuse me, so I knew I was gonna lose it. So, then I quit. Excuse me again. But that's where I got to know all of the town people and the whole, the whole, Marianne.

<Begin Segment 7>

RP: What are, what can you tell us about the community of Big Pine?

CT: That's probably the same. Very, very independent. Every person was his own person and his own mind and his own everything. I think we had one Chinese guy, Wing Fu, one Mexican family, the Herreras, and the Indians most generally lived on the reservation above town. I don't know if it's still there. It wasn't a regular, regular verified, regulated reservation, but they just sort of stayed there for years and years. I don't think it's there anymore. And then down south of town, south, they had their, where they built their houses and gave them I don't know how much land, deeded it to them. So, but at that time the Indians could not drink in a bar. They could drink, illegally, and they always did drink illegally, and if there was a football game or a baseball game they'd be the last ones to leave whoopin' and hollerin' down at wherever the site was. And everybody expected it and nobody thought anything of it. That's just the way it was. But nobody, if you, you bought... it was like if you bought beer for an Indian it was like an adult buying beer for a juvenile here. Same thing. But that, when I came out of the service that had changed in '53 I believe. Then they could go into the bar and drink.

RP: Can you give us a feeling of the attitudes in Big Pine...

CT: Towards the Japanese?

RP: Towards the Japanese Americans and the, the camp at Manzanar?

CT: Well, when Manzanar was first built it was sort of like everybody was happy because it provided jobs for quite a few people, the local people. And then the Japanese moved in. Nobody thought too much of it as far as I knew, as far as I could remember, I don't know. I know there's lots of big prejudice because there's people gettin' hurt in the war. And then like as far as the game goes, I think there were a lot of people against it. But I think the kids more or less wanted to do it, us guys, us girls, guys, boys, whatever. And I think that's why it got done. And I don't think there was too much opposition. But there was lots and lots of prejudice against the Japanese. If a Japanese had run down the street I wouldn't want to be him, you know, at night or in dark, or anytime. 'Cause somebody would holler or say something. And I've talked to a few Japanese after that and they were scared to go out by themselves, too. They knew it was there. That's about all I can remember.

RP: Uh-huh. In talking with you last year you, you mentioned talking about yeah, having conversations with your friends about who you wanted to get captured by.

CT: Well, that was just us young minds talking. And we would rather get captured by the Germans than the Japanese because they had the reputation of a lot of, lot of torture. The Germans, as far as we knew, didn't have that. 'Course, we knew nothing of the Holocaust or any of that. But still, if it was gonna be one or the other we'd rather be captured by the Germans. And right or wrong, probably right more than wrong, in some ways.

<Begin Segment 8>

RP: Let's talk a little bit about the game itself. You said that you and the rest of your teammates really wanted to go down there and play.

CT: I can't remember anything, anybody, any of us saying we didn't want to go.

RP: Uh-huh.

CT: And know I wanted to go and don't ask me why. I just wanted to go. Because prejudice and stuff, to me, I just didn't have it at the time. I don't know if I have it now or not but I didn't have it then I know. But the townspeople, they didn't, I can't remember them having any one say any one way or the other about it. No big hubbub about it at all. So we went, that's it.

RP: Let's talk about the guys on the team that played in that game. Two guys in particular I wanted you to talk about were Jack Fansler...

CT: Jack Fansler, he came home, this was in '44 right?

RP: Right.

CT: Well he was home then. He wasn't in the service. I don't know if he was wounded or how he came home. I really don't... but he had witnessed some kamikaze pilots and stuff over in the, you know, over in the Pacific. So he was, he had his share of it. '44 seemed like a little soon for him to be home but he was there at the game. And he never had finished high school when he left. A lot of those guys volunteered when they were seventeen, as soon as they could volunteer, and they hadn't finished high school yet. So they came back and spent their extra year or whatever it was to get their diploma. And he was one of those. And that's why... he had never been on our team before that. But he was a big husky guy so he was welcome. [Laughs]

RP: So he's coming back from the theater of war in the Pacific. And, and the next thing he's down at Manzanar playing against Japanese Americans.

CT: Yes I know, I've, that's goin' through my... I never thought about it before, before this all came about. And then I thought about it the last few days, last few weeks... just tryin' to figure out what his thoughts were. But he's sort of a quiet person. He never said. He was a friend, a very good friend of mine, you know, but never came up, never came up.

RP: Never expressed himself about that?

CT: No. And I didn't ask.

RP: Another gentleman was...

CT: Rowland Fansler was his brother.

RP: Right. Rowland was a reserve. And Buddy Lund?

CT: Buddy Lund, he was a, he's in the same grade as I. I don't know how the team got shook up so much because Jack, I don't think had never played with us before. And I don't think Walter Galino did either.

RP: And Walter also, he was, he went to the war too didn't he?

CT: Yes, I believe so.

RP: And then he came back and...

CT: Yes. Uh-huh. His brother did, too, his brother. His brother incidentally used a, they used Saline Valley as a target practice for the bombers there, or the machine guns.

RP: Saline Valley was used?

CT: Yeah, in that area. I don't know where they came from but he used to tell us about how they'd run their, their runs and shoot their whatever they shot, their machine guns at some target. I don't know what they used for a target, probably donkeys or whatever. I have no idea. There was a lot of donkeys there, mules, and they had donkeys, jackasses.

RP: Right, maybe they were trying to get rid of a few of 'em.

CT: Maybe. Who knows?

RP: Peter Daly...

CT: I don't know. I can't, I was trying to place him myself.

RP: Uh-huh.

CT: I don't know.

RP: How about Don Peach?

CT: Yeah, Don Peach, he's a very good friend. He got killed in, in Korea. When the three of us in, three of us, Buddy Lund... no, Rowland Fansler, Eddie Harvey, and myself, we tried to enlist into the service from Big Pine so this was in '49, '48-'49 so we all went to Los Angeles, the three of us went to Los Angeles in the post office. And above the post office was all the recruiting, everything was there. We went down from one office to the other trying to get in. But Rowland was so heavy they wouldn't, they wouldn't take him in the service. So we was all gonna go together. So we didn't. We drove our old car back home and then a little, few months later we decided to try it again. We all went to Reno to try to enlist. So as soon as we got to Reno they signed us up right away. 'Couldn't even go home. We had to mop the floor that night and they sent us to Fort Ord where before we could hardly... next morning. We were in the army then. [Laughs]

RP: Sooner than you expected.

CT: All three of us together. Yeah, and while we was in, while we were signing up they asked what theater we'd like to go to, Europe or Asia. So we said Europe. We had, we didn't know anything about the war then. We couldn't find a job. That's one of the reasons we wanted to go into the service. So, we went through about halfway through basic they came around and wanted to, wanted us to sign, resign our waiver and let us, let them ship us to Asia instead of sending us to Europe. But we were smart enough by chance that we didn't let 'em do that. And we stuck to our guns and they stuck to theirs and all three of us went to Germany in different parts, but we didn't... then the rest, the whole rest of the Fort Ord I think went to Korea.

RP: Korea.

CT: Yeah.

<Begin Segment 9>

RP: You mentioned to me that Buddy, Buddy Lund, his folks had a Flying A station at the end of Big Pine?

CT: Yeah, well, his father did. And he worked in it a lot. A lot, a real lot.

RP: And he was one of...

CT: That was a, that was the station right above the high school there. I think it's Flying A isn't it? Maybe not.

RP: Yeah, not anymore.

CT: No, I don't know what it is.

RP: So Buddy went, Buddy was one of your fishing friends?

CT: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

RP: Where did you used to go with him?

CT: Where?

RP: Yeah, where did you go fish with him?

CT: Well, one of the memorable ones was going up to the south fork of the Big Pine. Go up to Willow Lake. And then we started at the Brainard Mountain, Brainard, the creek that, that, there's one creek comes down is muddy, or not muddy, white. And the other one that comes down is clear. So we went up the muddy one for, no, the white one for a while. It wasn't mud, it was just... I don't know why that water was that color. Do you? Like a milky color.

RP: Yeah. Might be the glacial silt.

CT: Maybe. But that's funny, that one, Brainard Lake is where that creek came from. So we went up the other one and Buddy had known of a little lake up there somewhere, so we decided to go and this, this, it wasn't a lake. It was a large pond. Clear as a bell. You could see the bottom and everything. Well, you could in all those lakes then. But we could never see a fish after we looked. So we'd come back. We caught fish up there.

RP: What kind of fish did you have up there?

CT: Well there's golden in Willow, Willow Lake, a few, just a few. We caught a rainbow I think out of the muddy, the colored one. And that's about all. We didn't... oh, we caught... the only way you could catch them, some... not trout, what are the... spotted ones. Come on, come on...

RP: It'll come to you.

CT: Huh?

RP: It'll come to you.

CT: Should come to you too. You're the forest ranger.

RP: [Laughs] It's not a trout though.

CT: No, no.

RP: Bluegill?

CT: No, no, nothin' like that.

RP: Bass?

CT: No Bluegill, bass.

RP: No warm water fish?

CT: It looks like a... what's that?

RP: Is it a striped bass?

CT: No. None of that up there.

RP: [Laughs] Oh, we'll figure it out.

CT: Well anyway, we caught a few. We caught enough fish to bring home. And we did go golden trout up above Bishop, up above, in between Bishop and Big Pine. Up above Shannon Canyon, back in there, way back that far.

RP: Way back.

CT: Yeah.

RP: Did you ever get up into the Coyote area?

CT: That's up by Bishop? No. No, we had enough hiking there. There's enough to go for miles and miles and miles, here on Big Pine. We got up to the small glacier almost. The... and when we went to that Willow Lake that time we had to cross over some ice and snow. And if you just slipped you could see down there forever it looks like. And we didn't. [Laughs]

<Begin Segment 10>

RP: Let's see here. You talked about I think all of the guys on the team. Do you remember your, your uniforms, your colors? What were your colors?

CT: Blue and gold. Gold and... blue and gold? No, I think so. It's in that song there. "Give a cheer, give a cheer for the boys of..."

RP: Manzanar High School's colors were cardinal and gold. Oh, green and gold. That's your colors.

CT: Green and gold, there you go.

RP: Yeah, I should have remembered that. Did you have a, any type of a pep rally or anything before you went down to play the game?

CT: I can't remember. But there's always some little somethin' but nothin' large. No, not like your, the regular pep, no. None of our games that I can remember had it. Now I think they do but we didn't ever.

RP: Uh-huh. Oh yeah. And where did you, where do you recall playing the football game at Manzanar?

CT: The only thing I could remember about it, we went into the gate, up the road a little ways, and then to the right. It was some kind of a service center or something there. It was very cordial. I mean, they were, everybody was happy. They were as friendly as they could be. No, no bad words that I can remember. It wasn't either side. During the game we were just trying to win, but we didn't. They had a thousand guys. We only had three or four.

RP: You mean just three or four rooters?

CT: No, no. I mean people on the team. They were, they were so unbalanced for the personnel. We had nine and they had, I don't know how many. On their roster there was, there's a whole bunch of people.

RP: They had a full roster.

CT: Oh yeah. I think they had eleven men team too.

RP: Uh-huh. And they had been used to just playing the seniors versus the juniors all this time so they were just elated that a team from...

CT: Yeah, they, everybody was happy. It was, it was real cordial. They greeted us like old friends and no, nothin', nothin' bad at all about it as far as I can remember. I don't know what they did but I don't know if we had something to eat or drink or whatever. But it was all nice. Whatever happened was good stuff.

RP: So who came down from Big Pine to root for you?

CT: I have no idea. I couldn't tell you one person. But sports was usually pretty, pretty well followed so I don't know. There might have been quite a few but I don't know.

RP: So you played right halfback?

CT: In that game I did.

RP: Uh-huh. And you got a few carries that day?

CT: Oh I'm sure. I could remember feeling disappointed but we never did get into the goal. We'd get close I think, but never did quite make it. But, it was a good game as far as we was concerned. You know we didn't... I thought the, I thought the juniors won but I guess they didn't.

RP: Yeah, according to what I've read, the juniors didn't.

CT: I thought that they had.

RP: And I was too.

CT: So I was mistaken.

RP: Yeah, the score was twenty-six to nothing.

CT: And ours was thirty-three to nothing.

RP: And yours was thirty-three to nothing. I thought you had scored. I thought I heard somewhere thirty-three to six, but...

CT: I don't know.

RP: Yeah.

CT: Nothin' stands out, but I'm not sure. I don't, I didn't know that when you, when you first talked I had no idea what the score was except that we had lost. It's hard to remember in the game. But all, all I can really remember of the game and of the people was it was a happy time as far as they were concerned and as far as we was concerned it was the same. And we were glad for the experience. And I doubt if any of the half of us had even seen a Japanese before.

RP: And, do you have any idea who printed up these programs? Was it Manzanar?

CT: I have to say they had, they did.

RP: Manzanar?

CT: Because of the spelling. Fansler, they use an "S" and I understood the Japanese didn't have an "F" in their language.

RP: Oh, in their language so they put an "S."

CT: Yeah.

RP: Sansler.

CT: It was supposed to be "F", Fansler.

RP: Huh. Wow. Another thing that was mentioned about the game was I guess Rowland got in for some plays and scored, or ran for a total of two yards I think was his net yardage?

CT: Is that all?

RP: Yeah.

CT: Well, I don't know. They called him the "Steamroller" for some reason or other. It seems like he'd have to get more than two yards.

RP: That's a story that you told, shared with me last year about that they were calling him the "Steamroller" in Japanese?

CT: I don't know what it was, but that's what I heard. They called him the "Steamroller."

<Begin Segment 11>

RP: Hm. And you're going up against a school, a student body of a thousand kids with a large, a large team. Many, many of those guys had played football before at other high schools before they came to Manzanar. So...

CT: Oh yeah, we weren't, we wanted the win, that's for sure. But we weren't disappointed I don't think. I think we were disappointed we didn't score at all. As far as I could remember, no lingering thoughts about it. Just a game we lost.

RP: Right. You said that you didn't feel the prejudice that other people in the community felt.

CT: I can't say that they did feel the prejudice. I'm just saying I didn't. I didn't have, I wasn't prejudiced at all.

RP: Uh-huh.

CT: But, if it would have got down to war talk or something, I would have been prejudiced. This was kids' game. But if it had got any serious, I would have been prejudiced I know. Because I knew some of the guys that got hurt. But that's in a different... I'm here and they're up there. Different zone. Kids think different, I think. You know, we weren't all of... I was only what, fourteen or fifteen years old. It was just an experience.

RP: And that was your only, that was your only visit to the camp during the time you were in Big Pine. You never went down to Manzanar again, did you?

CT: No, I passed by lots and lots of times though.

RP: Was there any attitude or feeling that changed within you because of the game that you played there?

CT: No, I don't believe so. Not that I can remember. No, I don't think so. I might have been a little bit surprised at the, maybe, I don't even know that, but now I'm surprised thinking back that it was so well accepted by them. We were accepted by them as well as they were accepted by us. It was just a mutual binding. Or maybe not binding but a mutual understanding.

<Begin Segment 12>

RP: Clyde, can you give us a little picture of some of the activities or changes that took place in Big Pine during the war? Some of the activities, rationing, collecting paper, scrap metal... Were you involved in any activities like that?

CT: I don't think there was any of that there.

RP: Selling war bonds?

CT: Oh, the war bonds. And, yes, that was constant, with no big sales pitch. Just a, you bought it, you had money and you bought one, you bought one. I still got one my dad had bought. He, some reason he... he wasn't a drinking man but they had a, the, you put your name in a bucket and then they pick it out of a box and you pick it out and whoseever name they pick out won the war bond. So he won one, an eighteen dollar one. And he gave it to me. And I still have that. Nineteen forty... whatever it was. I still got it in the kitchen.

RP: Your dad eventually got on with the city of Los Angeles?

CT: Yes.

RP: And what did he do for them?

CT: Just the power and light, water, power, and light. He was a, sort of a handy, you know, I don't know just exactly what he'd done. They had lots of openings for... people ran their generators and did all kinds of that... maintenance. Just an all, just a general hand I'd say. And he was fifty some years old when he got, when he got hired there. And he retired from that.

RP: Was he involved in any mining activity around here?

CT: Yes he was.

RP: What did he do?

CT: Well, to begin, when we first moved there he got a job in... what was that canyon I mentioned?

RP: Shannon Canyon?

CT: Shannon Canyon, that mine...

RP: Tungsten?

CT: Tungsten mine. He got a job in the mill there. They were, the mining was pretty much done during the daytime when I had... and then they'd mill it the rest of the night I guess. I don't know. Maybe the mill was going constant, I don't know. But he worked in the mill for quite a while. And then it shut down. Here's a sign of illegal hunting while I was there. He and another guy, don't tell the forest ranger, no. [Laughs] He and another guy were out on, by the mill, and I'd go up with him sometimes, just horse around. And this other guy had a thirty-thirty. And he had three shells and he said, "I've only got three shells." And they'd go up Shannon Canyon and get us, it was sort of, it wasn't winter time, pretty close. And he said, "Shoot a, get us a deer if you can." And they would eat it. But they said, "Don't pick on a big one." Well, I got there about halfway up before the springs, you know in the springs way up there? About halfway up there. And this great big old buck started down the hill and I couldn't help but start shooting. First shot I missed. Second shot I missed. Third shot I went through his front leg. And he could still hobble and he went right down to the creek in the brushiest son of a gun place you could ever think of. And what was I gonna do? I didn't have no more shells and every time I get just, at first I was just gonna take my knife and go cut his throat. But I'd get close, first time I got close, he jumped at me. And that's... so how am I gonna do? So finally I took my knife, cut a great big long little stick, took my shoestring out, tied the knife to the little stick and finally after a bunch of jabs I jabbed him in the neck and killed him. But after I had thrown about a ton of rocks at his horn and broke him all up.

RP: Quite a battle.

CT: And then they'd come up and hauled him back down. And they were mad at me 'cause it was such a big deer they didn't even want to carry him out of there. That's Shannon Creek isn't it? There's some doves up there hollerin' out all the time way up on top.

<Begin Segment 13>

RP: This is tape two of a continuing interview with Clyde Taylor. And Clyde, you were, we are just sharing a story about your hunting adventures. And you graduated from Big Pine High School in 1947?

CT: Yup.

RP: And you and a friend hit the road on a little adventure. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

CT: You're gettin' a long ways away from this game.

RP: That's all right. It's all...

CT: Okay. The day after we got out of school, I think it was the day after, I had an old car, '35 Plymouth I think, coupe, so Leon Lay and I had thirty some dollars, and he had just a little bit less than that. So we took off. And had no idea where we were going. We just went. So my sister and her husband worked at Herlong. He worked in the head of house there. So we stopped there for a couple days. Then we got a job at the igloos where they, where they put the shells and stuff for protection. They'd put it in an igloo and then they'd put lots of dirt over the top of it. I guess it's an igloo, you'd call it. Quonset hut.

RP: Oh.

CT: Sort of like a Quonset hut. Half of 'em underground and then they'd... so we got a job there and we stayed a couple days and then that was enough so we still had money left so we didn't even get our paycheck. We told 'em to send it home. So then we went up on 395, had a pretty good trip. Fishing in a fishing stream. Caught a couple fish for supper. We got up to Pendleton. We was gonna start lookin' for a job but we just, I don't know, we didn't like it too much so we started towards the Columbia River. We got to the Columbia River and then the, it was a ferry across to Washington. I wanted to go to Washington, I don't know why. But Leon didn't want to go. He was about broke. So we flipped a coin and I won. So we went to Washington. And we were so broke we stopped in a farm place to see if we could find a job where they hired out of the farm bureau or whatever, I don't know. And the guy come in, pickin' people, "You, you, you, and you come with me." So we went with him and we went clear up into Wenatchee, way up. Beautiful place. Up the Wenatchee River, up through the river, the lake, almost to Canada I think. And they had a job thinning apples. You know how to thin apples?

RP: No.

CT: When they're small you hold the apple and you hold the stem and then flip the apple off. Okay, I learned that. That's about all I learned. So then... we quit there. We was tired. I wasn't tired. I would have stayed longer but Leon didn't want to do it anymore. So we went down the Columbia to Portland and down from Portland to Drain. And of course I knew some of the kids from high school there. That was just a party. Big, not a big party, but a pretty good party. We got a job in a motel. We'd clean up the yard and they'd give us a room. But it was only a dollar a night for the room, but we'd clean up the, whatever, the weeds and stuff. So the lady gave us a room. And then we left there and came back home. Oh, and then we got down to Lee Vining. And we ran out of gas and ran out of money. And I had a carton of twenty-two shells that we had taken along just for fun, and an old single shot twenty-two. We'd never use it or anything but we still had the carton of shells. We stopped in a service station to see if we could trade the shells for some gas. And while we was in there talking to the man, lo and behold, our team, our town team, was playing Lee Vining, baseball I believe. And his parents were coming down and they saw us and they pulled in there and bought us a tank of gas, tinkered with our car a little bit, and got us home. And we had the thirty bucks left from our job when we got home. So that was our month-long excursion.

RP: Great adventure.

CT: Slept in the car, except for that place at Drain where the lady gave us room for a buck. Oh, an interesting part of that trip was coming over Tioga Pass, goin' east. It's a pretty steep hill up there.

RP: Right.

CT: I don't know if it still is or not but...

RP: That was a dirt road at that time wasn't it?

CT: No, it was, it was almost, real narrow, pot holes, real almost dirt. My old car wouldn't pull it over that hill. So, I'd slip the clutch and rev it up and Leon'd get out there and push and we got up the top finally and then it was all downhill. Made it home. [Laughs]

RP: So what were you driving?

CT: I think it was a '35 Plymouth Coupe.

RP: Huh. That was your car?

CT: Yeah, it was mine. Hundred dollars from Tiny Gates. My dad was so mad at me for buying that. He could spit, but he didn't. It was all right.

RP: We were talking earlier about some of the other ethnic groups or I should say ethnic individuals and in, in Big Pine, you mentioned a gentleman by, a Chinese guy, by the name of Wing Fu?

CT: Yeah.

RP: Yeah, what do you remember about Wing Fu?

CT: Just a nice guy, different, looked different, acted different, stayed by himself. That's all I know. But nobody bothered him. He didn't bother anybody and he was just part of the town. And he was just, his personality is, was different from the rest. Nobody thought anything of it.

RP: Do you recall if he ran a store or a restaurant?

CT: I don't know where he worked or how he worked. I just don't know and I don't remember if I ever knew. Rowland Fansler I think bought a lot or something from his, I think. He mentioned it when I was workin' and coming by through the town one time there.

<Begin Segment 14>

RP: The year that you played Manzanar High School, you were a junior at that point? Or what was your...

CT: If it was '44, I was a junior.

RP: Okay. And...

CT: 'Cause forty... let's see, that'd be, that'd be 1944 and I graduated in '47, so I, maybe a sophomore.

RP: Okay.

CT: I don't know.

RP: So did you remain part of the football team through the rest of your --

CT: Oh yeah.

RP: -- school years?

CT: Yes.

RP: Uh-huh. And how did the team do over the next few years?

CT: Oh, I don't know. It was just play as hard as you can. We won a few. Lost probably more than a few. But, there's no... just the idea of playing, the competition was a...

RP: Was a, was a high. A little rush.

CT: Yeah. Well, not the high. It was just the thing you had to do. Just like fishing. You don't go catch a little fish and get a little mad sometimes. Same thing. Just competition.

RP: How about academically? Were you, what type of student were you in high school?

CT: Fair. Nothin' spectacular. Passed all my courses. We had a science class. What's the stuff you put in the water that boils up and sort of explodes? Sodium? No.

KP: Sodium, I think.

CT: Sodium? You put it in water and poof. Well we knew this, this young science teacher. He was new to the place. We knew he always put the water down that sink. So we put some of that stuff in his drain, he turned on that sink, it went whoosh. Luckily nobody got hurt. But that's just something you can't forget. Somethin' like that. Nobody got in trouble 'cause knew who did it.

RP: Huh. Were there other little pranks that you liked to pull in high school, too?

CT: Oh yeah. We put a few stink bombs out in the hall from that class. We snuck in the girls' cooking class and hid all their stuff on the roof. Stuff like that. [Laughs] No big trouble.

RP: Nobody got hurt.

CT: Nobody got hurt. That teacher lucked out though.

RP: He's still wondering who did that.

CT: Pardon?

RP: I said that teacher's still wondering who did that.

CT: Probably. Everybody knew except him.

RP: [Laughs] Oh gol. Do you recall the, the day when the war ended, VJ Day?

CT: Yes, very much. I don't know if it was VJ Day or the European war, German war. But I think it was VJ Day. I think I was still in the service station workin' there. And everybody had a bottle out and everybody was givin' everybody a drink. And that was the first time I really drank any whisky that amounted to anything. I went home and passed out on our lawn. [Laughs] That, that sort of thing I remember about it mostly. And I don't remember which J Day it was. But that's what I do remember about it. You couldn't turn around without somebody shovin' a bottle into your face. That, you know, that's something where dances, or anything, everybody had a bottle in the back of their car. Everybody that went to the dance. Except the ones that stayed home, they probably didn't drink at all. But anyway, and that was if you go up to talk to 'em they'd offer you somethin' from... no matter if you... usually at the dances you was old enough to drink as far as anyone is concerned. But nobody really got sloppy. Hardly ever, you know, I don't, I don't remember anybody gettin' so drunk they couldn't walk or somethin', from that, from that. 'Course if the guys went out and sometimes you would. But...

RP: Did you, did you attend any events at Keough's Hot Springs or go out there regularly?

CT: Another interesting story if you want it. They were gonna hold... now this was after the guys came back from the service. And I could probably, I was a senior probably gettin' out of school. And they had gone to L.A. and some girls club they had told 'em where it was and I think they even paid some of their tuition to come up, I mean, bus fare to come up to Keough's and have nice outing. Well when they got up there they were all twelve, thirteen, fourteen year old. They was way too old, too young for the guys that just came out of the service. So all us guys, we've been waitin' around, we had a ball. They was all, you know, young girls that wanted to talk to us. But they didn't, they were too young for those other guys. So we took their girls out. [Laughs] That's my, well, Keough's was always a place to go swimming. Sometimes we'd go to Bishop, rent a horse, ride back there to Keough's. That's one time we did that, a bunch of us. Sometimes we'd walk. Not sometimes, but we have walked clear from Big Pine to Bishop just to go to the show. Just walk up there. Bunch of kinds and nice summer night, big moon.

RP: Do you remember your graduation?

CT: Do I remember my graduation? Not really. Probably bits and parts, but nothing special.

RP: Uh-huh. Do you remember the size of your graduating class?

CT: Pardon?

RP: The size of your graduating class in Big Pine?

CT: Yeah, it was larger than, than usual because of those two or three guys or four guys that came back from the service. So it was say seven or eight or nine maybe.

<Begin Segment 15>

RP: These, these men that are, that came back from the service, did they, did any of them talk about their experiences in the war?

CT: Not very often, no. Hardly at all except Jack 'cause I had befriended, he befriended me or vice versa and we would run around together a little bit after he got back. And he'd say some of them. But not, not really elaborate, no. One story I do remember is our neighbor J.D. DeWeize, he was in the marines, and he was somewhere in the Pacific. And said he was walkin' through this high grass and he was, there was guns and everything, but he was by himself walking through the grass. And pretty soon this other guy was walkin' through the grass and one was a Japanese or Oriental of some kind, Japanese I guess, and they met right in this pathway. He said they both turned around and took off and ran the other direction, period. And this is a big ol' tough guy but he knew, he was smart enough to run away. Neither one of 'em shot. They were both scared to death. That's the story he told us.

RP: After you got out of your military service, Clyde, did you return to Big Pine or...

CT: Sort of. Let's see, yeah, I did for about, oh, maybe a couple years. Okay, after I went in the service I met this girl named Elfy. And she migrated from Vienna to Canada about a year before I got out. So I got out of the service and I was, fooled around for a year or so, couple maybe. So then I went up to Canada and we got married in Canada. And she, and then we come back to Big Pine for a small, small amount of time. And then we went to, went to Taft Junior High, or Taft Junior College. I think it was a college then, I don't know. Graduated from there and just went on with our lives from that.

RP: What, what career did you settle into?

CT: Well, my sister and her, my brother-in-law moved to Sacramento. So I came to Sacramento just to see them. We had had a trailer in Taft College, so we, they had sent us to Arizona. No, no, no. This, I'm gettin' ahead of myself. So I pulled the trailer up to Big Pine and one of the welding instructors came up and stayed with us for a while, just for a visit. What was the question?

RP: What, what career did you settle into?

CT: Oh, okay. So then my sister and brother-in-law lived in Sacramento so we came to Sacramento, pulled the trailer over and put it in her driveway. And I started lookin' for a job. 'Cause I had to go to work. So I just called J.G. Moore and Commissary Company. And they gave me a job. And they fed anything that needed a commissary or needed a kitchen or... they had railroad places and farms and ranches and lumber companies. Everything that needed... but anyway, they sent me to Arizona. And we was there for a little over a month for the Braceros. And that was an experience, too. I think it was four, four ranches that had Braceros. And there's my boss and then myself was the only two people that had to take care of all of 'em. You know, the cooks and all that. But one day we went out there and the cook had quit. And I don't know how to cook. [Laughs] There's a few, few of the Braceros that had stayed, stayed in the camp and they didn't want to go to work or were sick or whatever, so they saw my predicament and they all dove, dove in and we went up there and we put tortillas and soup and everything we got. When they came in from the field they could have anything they wanted. Everybody was happy so we got out of that.

And then from there I worked there a year. And after this year I had exactly the same amount of money in the bank as when we started, period. No, no, nothin'. Maybe I would have made more if I'd stayed, but for after a year I was even... so I was foolin' around and I saw this service station on 30th and L, the Texaco station. So I found the owner of it and asked... and he was, he had a "for sale" sign or somethin'. I found it was for sale. I found the owner and I said you wanted to sell it, asked if he wanted to sell it. I was just green. I was only twenty-somethin' years old. And said, "Yeah." He goes, "Do you know anything about a service station?" I said, "I used to work in one." And he said, "Well, that's about it." So I borrowed fifteen hundred dollars from my father and he loaned me that money and I got the service station. I was there for eight years, excuse me, eight years I believe. Made enough money to buy our first house. I was tired of the bell ringing and they wanted me to stay open all night. So that was the end of that. Then I went to work for Cal Gas, the propane company?

RP: Here in Sacramento?

CT: Pardon?

RP: Where? In Sacramento?

CT: Yeah, in Sacramento, yes. This is all Sacramento now. And I retired from, well after they sold it in, retired from Cal Gas you might say, twenty years later.

RP: And you had a boss at Cal Gas who actually was a former internee.

CT: Pete Okamoto.

RP: Yeah. Tell us about Pete.

CT: Pete, he's a very, very conscious, a very fine person, good mentality. He's the one that gave me the job. He's the one that kept me on it and showed me lots and lots of things. And he was in, he, he went I think somewhere up north. I don't know which camp he was in. But he joined the army and I think he went in that four... I don't know if he was in that one or not. But he joined the army. And he was the only person when he joined that went back east for his departure. And he was scared to death, he said, for part of the time 'cause he's the only Japanese in the whole place, the whole train. So anyway, he's my, he's still in... I think his wife has passed away. He's still in Sacramento as far as I know.

RP: Yeah, just to share a story with you. The gentleman who we're working with here at the church contacted me the other day and said that Pete, Peter Okamoto was interested in being interviewed.

CT: Oh yeah, I bet he would be.

RP: So...

CT: He's a very nice person. He has two sons, two or three sons, I think. He had a small business related to propane or natural gas. He was my boss for quite a few years.

RP: This program that you, you saved this program from the game? Was that the original program that you had?

CT: Yes.

RP: And, and about a year or so ago you gave us a call and wanted to donate it to us.

CT: Well, maybe it was that long ago. And this is where Bob Layman comes in. He saw the program or I had it sitting under a... he married this Japanese woman. So I asked if he knew any Japanese around town and of course he does. And... he wanted to take the program and show it to 'em, I believe. So I gave him the program and he showed it to this one person, I can't remember the name. I can hardly remember my own. But anyway, he's the one that really got started going to Manzanar. I don't know if he's the one got, goin' to Manzanar, but this guy wanted to see it. And we all thought it was... I don't know how I got in touch with you, tell you the truth. Did you call me or did I call you?

RP: I think you called us. But...

CT: Maybe I did. I don't know. My wife'll probably remember.

<Begin Segment 16>

RP: Did you... going back a little ways, before you left to go into military service, did you or any members of your family go to Manzanar to purchase any buildings or materials?

CT: No.

RP: Anything during the time the camp was being dismantled?

CT: No.

RP: Uh-huh. Do you know of any buildings or items from the camp that ended up in the Big Pine area?

CT: No, I don't.

RP: Okay.

CT: I think when I left it was still going wasn't it? No, no, it was gone then.

RP: You left at forty...

CT: '47.

RP: Seven.

CT: '49. It was gone then right?

RP: So when was your next visit back to Manzanar? You had played the football game.

CT: And I never did go back. Just by it. Just drove by it. It's right on the road, 395. My dad -- you asked if there was any mining -- my dad did, my dad and his brother had a talc mine on, not a big one, just a two man. They made a living there for a while. You go to Lone Pine, you turn left like you're goin' around the valley. And it's off to the left up there above the salt, above the lake. But he sold it, sold it later on.

RP: Did he have a name for that mine?

CT: Talc mine, I don't know.

RP: Just a talc mine? [Laughs] So you've never, you've never been into the interpretive center at Manzanar?

CT: No.

RP: Oh, I thought you had.

CT: Just saw it on TV a couple times. Always interested, but no, I've never been there. Why would I go?

RP: Maybe to go back and re-live those...

CT: That football game?

RP: That football game.

CT: Whoever wants to go back and relive a thirty somethin' to nothin' football game? Not me.

RP: a few more questions about the game. You did wear pads for your uniform?

CT: Oh, yeah, yeah, such as they were. The helmet was just, I don't even know if it was a hard helmet or not. I guess it was.

RP: And, it was, from what I've been told, a kind of a firebreak area in the camp. Just pretty much hard dirt.

CT: Probably was. Nothin', that was semi-normal.

RP: It was? How did it...

CT: Yeah. Well like that Trona, that's all they had. They'd been there a hundred years.

RP: Might, might have even been a little better than Trona, huh?

CT: Oh, I think so, yes.

RP: You didn't have those big rocks.

CT: No, they did have rocks in that, yeah.

RP: But you felt it. After the game did you feel kind of beat up or...

CT: I don't know, I don't remember it.

RP: The other thing that I was told was that I guess there was a barbecue after the game where both teams...

CT: I sort of vaguely remember the food but not, nothin' exceptional.

RP: Okay, uh-huh. Kirk, do you have any questions? Uh-huh. Clyde, do you have any other stories that you'd like to share related to the game or anything else in terms of your life in Big Pine, high school...

CT: No, not really.

RP: So, I have one last question. You know, sixty... this game was played sixty-five years ago. So how do you look back on that experience today?

CT: Oh, I'm glad that we went. There's nothing bad about it. And now that we're talking, I can, some of the personalities sort of ease through the conversation. But nothin' exceptional. I'm just glad that it happened. Then I could say that I played the Japanese in nineteen forty-somethin' I guess. But I never knew why. It just was another game, you know. It wasn't, there wasn't a big thing to me, to any of the team. I just hoped they don't have any kamikaze pilots there or somethin' like that. But no, it was just a game.

RP: Well, on behalf of the National Park Service and Kirk and myself, thank you so much for --

CT: Oh, you're very welcome.

RP: -- coming down here and sharing your stories about the game and everything else.