Densho Digital Archive - Dennis Bambauer Interview II

<Begin Segment 1>

RP: This is an oral history for the Manzanar National Historic Site. Today we're talking with Dennis Bambauer. And our interview is taking place in room 301 of the Main Street Station Hotel and Casino in Las Vegas, Nevada. The date of our interview is August 12, 2009, the interviewer is Richard Potashin and the videographer is Nancy Hadlock. Dennis'll be sharing his experiences as a former internee at the Manzanar War Relocation Center as well as a resident of the Children's Village at Manzanar. The interview will be archived in the site library. And, Dennis, do I have permission to go ahead and, and conduct our interview?

DB: Yes.

RP: Thank you very much.

DB: I'm very happy to.

RP: Thank you so much for taking some time out of your schedule today. I'd like to start our interview by talking a little bit about your early years at the Children's Home Society Orphanage and then go to Manzanar. Can you first tell me your date of birth?

DB: 10/7/34.

RP: Okay. And can you tell me what you recall about your mother? Her first name?

DB: Well, you remember that I was born out of wedlock. And so I am assuming that you wish my natural mother's name, and then if necessary, the second mother.

RP: Okay.

DB: My natural mother was Anna Tojo. And, she placed me in an orphanage at birth and proceeded to not be involved in the family with the placing of me in the orphanage. So I never knew my mother until about the same time that we're talking about for this interview. It took me fifteen years to find her and then when I found her she rejected me for several, several years. And we've worked our way through that. And, when I say we worked our way through it, at least we could talk to each other. Mother guarded facts very religiously. So, when it got into areas sensitive to her viewpoint, but of course not to my viewpoint, she always won. So, that's Mother Anna.

RP: In... do you know your father's, biological father's name?

DB: Yes. When I found my mother I had some information about a gentleman who was is a barber. And when I had the opportunity to talk to my mother about him, all I knew was his name. And I asked Mother if that was my father and she said, "Yes." And that then left me on the desire to see if I could find him. So, I only was looking for him probably about two years. I started looking for him seriously after my mother told me that that was his name. And, I found him within six or eight months of the time that I got that new piece of information. And his name was Schurfe. Right at the moment his first name is slipping me, by me. He was a barber. He had two other sons. But, natural sons. I was the only son born out of wedlock. So, I found him and he was comatose. He was suffering from diabetes and so forth. So my yearlong find became a very short time with him and without him being able to communicate with, with me. So, my hopes of finding out more about my family background were destroyed or limited because of his health.

RP: Is your, is Anna still alive today?

DB: Oh, my mother died about three years ago of intestinal blockage. Fortunately it was a very quick death and you know, we each have different viewpoints of death. But, this is one of the things that she was prepared for. Didn't expect to have a blockage but she would talk in terms of, you know, we all have a limited time here. When it's our time we will come and go.

RP: Did you get to see her before she passed away?

DB: Oh, yes. I took it upon myself to... she lived in Saint Louis. And I took it on myself to become as involved within that side of the family as I could. And so I attended weddings birthdays and things like that. And, that helped our relationship develop. Now the other side of the family -- I'm gonna jump there -- was the Tojo side. And their welcoming of me into their family was totally opposite. They opened their arms, embraced me, and made me feel like I had been there for all of my life. So the comparison between the two -- and I don't want to be critical, but one was much easier than the other.

RP: Now, your mother, Anna, had gone ahead and, and remarried or, or got married --

DB: Yes.

RP: -- and had a, a family of what, six children?

DB: She had a family of six children as I recall, yes. And they all grew up in the Cincinnati, Saint Louis area. I'm having a little problem with a thought. Oh, maybe it will come back.

RP: Did she, did she marry a Japanese man or a...

DB: Her first marriage was a Japanese man. Her second marriage was Caucasian. He was only together for -- my memory serves me -- like five or six years. And then I don't know what happened.

<Begin Segment 2>

RP: So you, you were, you were placed first in the Children's Society Home in Los Angeles, was it?

DB: Yes it was. I remember back to my age I'm going to guess was like three years. I mean I think my recollections goes back to three years, time span. One of the strangest things to remember is my visit at Children's Home Society and what, what seemingly was important at the time, or as important now. We were right next door to a church. And it was a very musical church. And one of the joys which we in our dormitory room, there were about three or four of us, we would always wait with anticipation to put our ear, open up our windows and listen to the church music from next door. And I've always thought that was curious because, like I said, I think I'm around three years old. And to be impacted by the church music next door is a little interesting.

RP: What was the makeup of the, of the kids at this orphanage? Were they predominately Caucasian or... what do you recall about that?

DB: They were all Caucasian, except this interloper who thought he was Caucasian but his name was Tojo and he was half Japanese and half Caucasian. And, to my knowledge there were no other racial fill-in-the-blank for me.

RP: Racial ethnicities with [inaudible.]

DB: Yeah, that sounds good.

RP: So were you, were you picked on or subjected to any ridicule based on that, that you can recall at that age?

DB: Well, we'll have to figure out which age we're talking about. Clearly, there was no, no, none of that occurred at Children's Homes Society because of my age factor. And, I guess because the significance of being Japanese American, I mean, that wasn't, we didn't know that there was an ethnicity. I mean, we were just little kids, grew up too fast probably. But no, not there. Now when we get a little later in life then we'll see that beginning to crop up.

RP: Where... you share that great story about the church music. Do you have any other vivid memories of your time at the Children's Home Society?

DB: The most vivid part that I recall was our Saturday evening. There was a large grass area and we were allowed to go out and be kids. It was structured so that, as I recall, there was a couple a slides and so forth. And we were able to do those kinds of things. But there was something missing and my guess that was missing was a cohesiveness. While we were all there at the same time, we weren't always there. And so... there's another interesting part that is gonna kind of fit in here. After my birth, my mother placed me into the orphanage, Children's Home Society. And when I found my Tojo side of the family, one of the things which... their children remember because remember there's some age difference between myself, my uncle is the youngest child and he and I are seven years different. Well, seven years difference is not exactly a time span which would cause people to remember things too well. And so when I was looking for my mother and I was very close to finding her, we discovered that my uncle did not recall any relationships that I had with the family. But as a matter of fact, an older sister, an older aunt, when my uncle asked him if he, she knew of the possibility of a child out of wedlock, what could she remember? And she said, "Well, every weekend somebody would go to the orphanage, pick up Dennis, and bring him home with us, with them. And he would spend the afternoon and maybe dinner but at least the afternoon every weekend. You know, that's a pretty significant thing. When, when I think about it is how many broken families, I mean basically we had a broken family. How many broken families do you see that break up but still have this kind of relationship? And it was only because of that relationship that I believe I was able to find both sides of my family. If that relationship hadn't existed I would have been without my knowledge of the family. The Tojos wanted to have twelve children. But I think, I think they stopped having children at ten. Somewhere in there.

RP: Did you, when you did discover your mom and her side of the family again, reconnected with them, did you ever pose the question to her why she gave, gave you up to an orphanage? Did she have an answer?

DB: Was her answer satisfactory?

RP: What was her answer?

DB: Absolutely not. She says, "We don't discuss those things." And if you knew my mother Anna, when she said no, you might as well accept it. Wait for another day, another time, and hope that you'll get another little piece. She was very private and would only let out that that she wanted to let out. And since her interest was exactly opposite my interest, well, we, we didn't always have a very long conversation on intimate family things.

RP: But it was so precious to have that connection again, whatever it was and however limited it was.

DB: That's correct.

RP: That was what you wanted to preserve...

DB: Yes.

RP: ... and not push the envelope.

DB: That's right. And if I had known that fifteen years later I would be sitting here making a recording of it I would have pressed a little harder.

<Begin Segment 3>

RP: Did you, did you develop any, any relationships with any of the staff at the Children's Home Society in the, in the time that you were there? Was there anybody that you connected with who was sort of maybe a surrogate father or mother figure to you?

DB: I'm gonna have to correct and then answer the question. Because what I understood was my original family, did I establish a relationship with them?

RP: Oh, let me rephrase the question.

DB: I wish you would.

RP: At the Children's Home Society orphanage, did you, were, was there anybody there at the orphanage that kind of took you under their wing? You might consider as a sort of a mother or father figure that was perhaps very caring for you? Anybody who sticks out in your mind?

DB: Only, only as a figure. There were several, we called them nurses, but they weren't nurses. But they wore uniforms like a nurse. And there were a couple there that were I would say more loving than the others. And so yes I tried to identify with those people. Then if you want to move up into the next level or my life, which is Children's orphanage in Manzanar, then there's a, a figurehead and a person that was very influential.

RP: Were, when, also when you were at the, the Society orphanage, was there any effort to place you in a foster home during that time?

DB: I don't know that it was a foster home, as the definition of foster home, that as I understood it over the years was placement of a child with the intention of adoption. And I had been placed in several families, but I don't know whether their intent was care or adoption. But, I was placed in several different homes at various times by the Children's Home Society. They placed me in the first, one of the homes that I was in, where there were two of us assigned, and I was quite a bit younger -- you're probably not interested in this, but anyhow, you'll have to bear with me 'cause I started it. -- I got my first lesson in smoking cigarettes. The other person in the home was about four years older than I was. So he took me out behind, actually the garage, and taught me how to smoke. No, he taught me to inhale and I inhaled too much. I never wanted to smoke again. Never wanted to smoke again. So he, he did me a real favor. But that was a product of an adoptive placement.

RP: So what was, what do you recall about your, your feelings about being in an orphanage, in that orphanage, the Children's Home Society? Do you remember?

DB: No I don't remember any particular thing. no.

RP: And you said earlier that there was, we were together but there wasn't a sense of cohesion there. There was, there was no particular kid that you kind of bonded with.

DB: That's, that's true.

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RP: So what, what triggered your removal from the Children's Home Society into Manzanar?

DB: Well, if you will recall, shortly after the bombing of Pearl Harbor, the Japanese Americans were incarcerated. About a hundred and twenty thousand of us were incarcerated around the east, the west coast and we were incarcerated because anybody with Japanese blood was considered to be an "enemy alien." So this took place in about 1942, I believe. With the Roosevelt Executive Order 9066 -- I should remember those and I think that's correct -- in which the executive order gave the military branches, the government, the authority to imprison all of us. So, being that I had Japanese blood, I was incarcerated. And that's how it happened.

RP: Were you sent to the, to the Japanese orphanage in Los Angeles before you came to Manzanar?

DB: Well, there's been some question about that and I have no recollection. There were several orphanages in Los Angeles at that time. There was a Maryknoll, there was Children's Home Society, and there was the Japanese Shonien, and that was the orphanage for Japanese. And when the order came down from the government, executive order that we were all going to be incarcerated, the government picked up all of the orphans, it's my understanding, from Washington down the band that follows the seashore back into a certain depth, and if you fell into that you were incarcerated. And I fell into that so I was incarcerated.

RP: Do you recall taking a bus trip with other orphans up to the camp? Is that how you actually reached Manzanar?

DB: Yes. I recall it quite vividly. First of all there was a time in which we were all waiting for the bus. And we were having great play on the front lawn of wherever we were waiting for the buses to arrive. So that was a pretty jovial mood. Then the buses arrived and you know, I used to have livestock and when they wouldn't go I'd kind of push 'em along and encourage them to and there were some of us that were afraid of getting into that bus. And so they got pushed along. That's not a very pleasant experience to either watch or be a part of. But, we found ourselves in that situation. You also have to remember that the military police was in charge. And their, their personnel carried a billy, billy club and guns and I can only speak for my feelings, is that was a scary time. And we, instead of embraced, having the feeling of they were there to assist us, one had the feeling that they were there to control us. And this is my perception. And, I think there were other occasions where we felt this, well, where I felt the same way. Some of the people after we got into the camp would relate stories. For instance, the Matsunos, how they were taken away from their home on a midnight raid by the FBI. And, we're six and seven years old. Maybe eight. That's just very hard for us, for me to understand.

RP: So up until this time you've been with Caucasian kids. You've yourself think of yourself as Caucasian. And then suddenly you're on a bus going to Manzanar with other Japanese kids. You kind of had to confront the fact that you, your Japanese blood...

DB: Well, that didn't really... sequentially it happened slightly different. But the end result was the same. But sequentially, one early morning ,the military police arrived at the Children's Home... wherever we were. For that... I might not have been at Children's Home Society. Because they brought all of the orphans into this one area, and I'm just gonna call it a holding area, where they held us until we got onto the bus. So it took a while for them to get themselves organized. And they had to separate, separate us by age. They might have separated us also by size, I don't remember.

RP: What do you, what do you remember about the trip up to Manzanar, Dennis?

DB: Well, I didn't know anybody. I was bigger and taller than everybody else. But not knowing anybody, I had no family, I had nobody. So all I could do is sit and wonder what was happening, going to happen next. And, nobody, nobody ever took the time, unless it was in a different bus, but in the bus that I was in, nobody took the time to tell us why we were, or what was going to happen to us. The image that I saw of this was law enforcement officer with two guns. Rifle in this hand and a pistol on his, on his leg. And that was a five hour ride from L.A. to Manzanar, I believe it was five hours. And nobody ever told us. Scary.

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RP: Well, let's talk a little bit about your, your experiences at the Children's Village. You said that you had a, a few people or maybe one individual that kind of was like a, maybe not a father figure, but somebody who maybe gave you a little more attention and care. And who is that? Do you recall?

DB: Sure. But let's get some reference. The way the orphanage was designed was to have three sections. And one section for small children. These were children in diapers and, and maybe five years old, up to five years old. And that was of course mixed. I mean we, we could put little kids together. Then the next level was, I'm going to say probably around the fifth grade level. So you had the primary kids in the one area. Then the next grade level up to like around the fifth grade. And then the next grade level, and then finally the last grade level which was the near eighteen year olds. And our, our barracks were arranged so they were all interconnected. And in the center of the barracks was our counselor's office. And I call him a counselor because I don't know what else but he was a counselor to us. And his name was John Nagayama. And John was our director. He was our disciplinarian. He just, we all, at least I identified him and I identified that he was a fair person. And so he made, in my opinion, he made the camp... his wings were the fifth grade up. So he made that, that group of boys accountable and did it in such a manner that we wanted to please, or at least I wanted to please more than I wanted to be difficult. Although I had that time, I had those times too. I think you'll find that hard to believe.

RP: Tell us what was, how were you difficult?

DB: Well, I was always kind of a, well... let's put it this way, always seemed to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. And, if I was there I became associated with whatever it was. For instance, we went out and robbed watermelons. Because remember that Manzanar was a rich agricultural area, and the citizens there raised the food to feed the ten thousand incarcerees. And we'd go out, we'd try to steal their watermelon. When it, when it was Christmas time, I don't expect you to know about this, but the Japanese Christmas time is a very sacred time. And one of the things that we did is they, we made up what was called mochi balls, which is a combination of a pounded rice which breaks down all the connecting fibers, and you mold 'em into a ball and you add radishes or whatever you want. And they're very excellent delicacy. But it takes a little time to do it. They were not intended to be baseballs. But as you can figure out, there were a few of us that thought that was what they were for. Now, we knew better. I mean, it wasn't a case of ignorance. We knew better, but we just were going to do that. And that's the type of thing that I'm talking about. I was never a, we had, we had the police department and I was never in trouble with the police, but I was only seven years old so you wouldn't expect me to would you? So that's what I'm talking about. We'd sneak off and try and go fishing. There were some creeks up there and, and as I recall the first few times we had to sneak around the tower guards. But I hope nobody ever finds us out. There were on several occasions after we'd been sneaking across, where we would get the high sign from the tower that we could proceed. And you only had to go out of the confines just a little bit. But, that's a significant fact that, that we would just get waved on.

RP: In reading one of your previous interviews, you mentioned that there were occasionally blackouts in the camp.

DB: Yes.

RP: How did those affect you as a, like seven year old kid at the time? Was it extremely frightening or something you just got used to?

DB: I think it's something we got used to. The sad part, the sad part in my life in that period of time was the fact that we were having these blackouts and the official, official word was, "We're practicing." My research has shown that the truth of the matter is that at one time there was a period of time in which there was a conflict between our citizenry and the military over some problem, I think it was in a mess hall or something. It was something like that. And there was rioting and there were I believe two deaths. And, that's, that was what was causing the blackout. Not, "Well, we're just practicing." Now that's what my research has told me, now that I'm, you know, work on those kinds of things. I suppose one could argue that the government has a reason for secrecy, but I don't know. I just... one of the values which, which I have embraced and I don't know why or how, but I have, and that is that you try to be honest and truthful.

<Begin Segment 6>

RP: Dennis, there were, there were some issues that came up at the Children's Village revolving around your last name, Tojo.

DB: Oh.

RP: Can you share with us how, what, how difficult, if it got difficult, how difficult was that for you? How did that experience evolve? I mean, I've heard and read a number of accounts of, that you took a great deal of ribbing sort of taunting for that. How was it?

DB: Well, it's interesting that you ask that question because I'm probably gonna touch on that this evening here at our conference. And I'm probably going to explain it as being a product of prejudism. Now we haven't spent much time on the prejudisms which were at or during the time of our, our internment. And internment isn't a correct word, incarceration is. it kind of goes like you're different because you see any of the pictures of that era of time when I am in it, I'm heads and shoulders taller than anybody else. So, so that was the first thing. Hey, you're gonna look at me and you're different. Oh, now how else are you different? Oh, you have the name Tojo. No... I wasn't knowledgeable enough to know who Tojo was, but I knew that it was a name that was involved with the war in Japan and so forth. But the use of the name Tojo was a pejorative term as it affected me. And it wasn't used except in anger with, with others. So, it was not uncommon for me, instead of being referred to by my name, being to referred to as, "Hey Tojo, get over here." Or, "Tojo" do this. Instead of, "Dennis." Now, I will say that the, the Children's Village where we had these mixed layers of, of people, probably occurred more often. The other thing that I would say is that generally, generally when you have people together and the people have bonded, which in a way I had bonded with other members of... and when somebody in that group gets attacked from outside, the group comes and wraps their arms around them and says, "He's part of us. Don't do this." That was reserved for other people. But not for me. So, that was a distinction that, that I recall. Now, back in those days I couldn't rationalize that. But I believe that was the case that they were not going, they did not come to my need and say, "We'll help you." They just let, let the tauntings continue. Not a pleasant time.

RP: Did you, you mentioned that you went out of camp several times with the consent of the, the guy in the tower. Did you, did you, were you curious about the rest of camp? Did you feel restricted to the Children's Village? Did you walk around and visit other friends that you might have had from school?

DB: We, we had no internal controls that I recall. Now, there might have been a evening curfew but my age didn't affect me. Remember we had up to eighteen years old. So their rules were obviously different than ours. That's another sad issue for, for America. Is the requirement that once you reach the age of eighteen you were, well, you weren't expected but you were removed from your home and didn't necessarily have a home to go to. It was a virtue of age. When you reach age eighteen you were on your way. Yeah. And, that's pretty sad situation.

RP: You explained, you know, the different groups of kids in the village. What about the, the environment around the village? Did that affect you at all? Large lawn areas with quite a bit of landscaping, places to run, places to play ball.

DB: Well obviously it appears that it was a subject of discussion because I recall... the, I recall some -- not confrontations but some jealousies in that our facility was better than the rest of the facilities. And it was. The government in building the orphanage did build it more carefully and it had some environmental things that were good, like the toilets were inside the main building and we weren't, we didn't have to walk across the yard to get to the latrines. It was interesting that last evening our group that's gonna present the program this evening, we were having a little discussion, and one of the discussions was about the fact that it was reported that Children's Village had a specialist chef who came from the Los Angeles city area and was in charge of the, the kitchen, and that it was reported that he had all this excellent food. So I said, "You know," -- this is my quote -- "You know, we heard that we had a special cook. But my memory was that our chief meal was white rice with brown gravy. And you could have as much of that as you wanted. I never felt that it was very special." End of quote. Yeah. I think that's one of those things that happened 'cause of time.

RP: Do you recall any feelings from people in the rest of the camp towards orphans? Was there a stigma with being an orphan at Manzanar?

DB: I didn't have the opportunity to observe any of that. And I think it was because we had developed our little groupings and so we would go to there where we were being accepted by whoever it was. And we stayed away from those people that we thought didn't like us. But there was a stigma about being an orphan. And it... would you call it a negative stigma? I mean, the thought was we got better facilities, were treated better, and, and that was the stigma that we had and I don't know if that's a plus stigma or a minus stigma. But that's, that's what I remember.

RP: That's an interesting point that you raised. Because Celeste Teodor, you know, who's in your group tonight, mentioned that she, she actually felt somewhat liberated by the fact that she didn't have parents in the camp, a mother or father, and that she had this network of friends and this close tight community called the Children's Village. You didn't have to worry about some of the issues that parents had to deal with at that time. You know, where, what are we gonna do after we leave camp? How do I answer the "loyalty questionnaire?" All these, these anxieties that parents had to take on that might be transferred to their children, children who had families. In her, in her estimation had more difficult time. Her empathy goes out to those, those kids.

DB: Yeah. I think that's a good point. And I hope she raises it.

RP: Knowing Celeste, she will.

<Begin Segment 7>

RP: This is a continuing interview with Dennis Bambauer. This is tape two. And, Dennis, you were, you were at the Children's Village for a little over a year. And then a, a big change in your life came about. You were adopted by a family from Bishop, California. Can you tell me anything about the circumstances surrounding that adoption and did the Bambauers come to Manzanar with the specific intent to adopt a child? Were you, or were you the one that they were looking for? What can you recall about that process?

DB: Well, to try and put it in sequence, I can't do because I don't know what their intent was. I do know that one mealtime, this couple was being shown around the facility. And shortly thereafter they were seen again. And... the kind of a underground telegraph system, it was drawn to the conclusions that, that they were there for something and we didn't know what but we just knew that they were there and, so then we, we heard that they were looking for another child. And, they thought that the combination of Japanese American was more appropriate to their interests than a, a full. So, that was one of their driving forces. We also know after, after the fact, that the Bambauers, two things are driving the Bambauers in this issue. The first issue is that my father was a M.D. My mother was an R.N. And so they felt very, very strong about their ability to deal with medical problems. So they had this issue that they wanted to help a child who had some kind of physical handicap. That was kind of their criteria. They had a second criteria which didn't happen, but their intent was to adopt twelve children. They made it with four. And I was the last child to be adopted and also the oldest. So that's kind of the framework.

My, I have a sister who was adopted because (she is a Paiute). And the story that I have been told was that my father was the Indian Service doctor and when the birth of... it was decided that the birth of twins was going to occur... now I don't know if this is true or not, but in the Paiute culture twins are not desirable. And so what I have been told in my childhood was that she was adopted because if they hadn't adopted her, or taken her in, one or the other of the twins would have been euthanized. Now whether that's true or not, I don't know. But I do know that my sister is full-blooded Paiute. My other sister was adopted because she had some physical and mental problems. And I'm not sure exactly what they were but I do know that throughout her entire life she's been unable to work or to be successful in what all of us would hope would be better than what she had. I have said for years, which she obviously denies, is that her academic level is like maybe the fifth grade. So that, those are the two girls. Then I had a brother who I believe was adopted because he had a cleft palate, which they were able to repair surgically but that was the, the reason he became part of the family. Then finally they wanted a mixture. And that's how I came into the picture. That first of all, you know the country so Manzanar and Bishop is accessible. And so they took me into the family to, or because I was half Japanese and half... so that's how we got our family put together.

RP: Dennis, can you give me the names of, of the, the three children that you just described to me?

DB: Sure.

RP: the Paiute girl?

DB: That's Marguerite, Helen Marguerite.

RP: Helen Marguerite. Okay. And, and then the next daughter, or your, your other sister?

DB: Was Bonnie Susan.

RP: Uh-huh. And the other boy?

DB: Donald Timothy.

<Begin Segment 8>

RP: What was your initial reactions or impressions of the Bambauers when you first got to meet them? You know, maybe the first meeting that you had with them as a, as a kid.

DB: Well, first of all, there was a pretty long period of time in which visitations were taking place. And they never involved me physically or, they probably involved me emotionally because if, if it's true it's gonna change things. But, but I don't think we ever got to that point. I think it happened more like come up and put me in a car and took me off. Now what was the second part of your question?

RP: Your initial impressions of them?

DB: So my first initial impression was just here comes some people to visit the camp and, and so... my second impression occurred... remember I said that I had this little tweak of... you know, well... the military police, it took two patrolmen and two other officers and I don't know what they were, and I was placed in the backseat between the two officers for the drive to Bishop. So it took three officers to get me from Manzanar to Bishop. When we got to Bishop they delivered me. Sent me... and remember I said that my father was a doctor. He, he had preserved that afternoon to take me home and introduce me to the new family. And that was my first encounter. Now, it was punctuated by the fact that we drove up to what we called the ranch, it was a little, it was a little ranch, where Mother and the other three kids were. And my father got out of the car and said, "Just a minute." And I don't know why he said, "Just a minute." But he said, "Do not touch anything on the dash." Now, what do you think that means? So he goes in and I say to my fellow sisters and brothers, "I wonder what this switch is for?" "You'd better not touch it, oh yeah." I touch it and I don't get 'em all back in the same place. That was my second. And he was, the family, were Quakers. And the Quakers have a very high esteem of personal worth and so forth and so forth. And he let me be known that that wasn't acceptable behavior. And I've attributed that to his Quakerism. And that Quakerism, like any other religion, engrosses your entire thinking process and so forth. So that was my... and he didn't holler, he didn't scream, he didn't beat anybody on the head or... he just said, "We don't do things like that." And we went on and got to introduce the family together and we, the ranch was twenty acres so we just played. We had a donkey and we played with donkey and...

RP: Was this located just outside of Bishop or...

DB: Well it's just, Bishop, then there's Round Valley, and this was the northern end of Round Valley. It was a Forest Service lease. We had like a ten or twelve year lease. And, do you know the area?

RP: Very well. In fact, I used to live there.

DB: Well, if you go out to Round Valley and you make a sweeping turn kind of to the east you make a turn back and there's a strawberry patch on the side of the hill here, a big strawberry patch, and there's this road going up, and you can see it all there, that takes you right through this bright green spot, surrounded. and that was our ranch. And we rented that for a number of years. And being a doctor, he needed a location to rest because the, the other house was twenty-two miles away. So, he had a place to go when he was on call.

RP: Before we talk a little bit more about that, what was it like for you leaving Manzanar, leaving the Children's Village? While be it you had some, there were some issues in how you were treated by other kids, but again, like you said, you had this sense of cohesion with that group. And now you're driving up to Bishop with, you know, strange, strange new family.

DB: It was a very difficult transition. I don't know if it was the age, the culpability of my, my life, but it was a very difficult transition. It was not only a difficult transition within the family, but it was a difficult transition in the community. The transition in the family, I'm not a psychiatrist or a psychologist, I can only tell you that the effect in my opinion was a lot of a lot of dysfunctional characteristics. I think you could say that, well, I could say, I don't know that you could say, but I think I could say that it was a extremely difficult transition and it lasted a long time. Normally we would have thought that within a year's time things would have leveled out and so forth. Well, I wasn't... the plan was to place me or finish the adoption procedure in a year. Well, I was finally adopted at the age of eleven. It took a lot longer. And what I was told was -- and it was primarily by my mother -- I was told that I just wasn't fitting in. And that could have been true. But, that's, that side of the family, there were same kind of signals with the other kids except they'd already been adopted. So they couldn't send 'em back. That was one of the things my mother threatened. You know, "If you don't straighten up we'll send you back." Well we, we got through it finally and adoption took place when I was about the eighth grade, seventh grade maybe. And then the transition from that grade level to a teenager was difficult for me and I might guess it might have been difficult to my mother and father. Yeah, it was. So I think, I think we never really had a meaningful family relationship. I mean, we were, we were there. But, for instance, I ran away from home probably six or eight times, between the time that I was a freshman in high school and in fifth grade in elementary school.

RP: Where would you go?

DB: Well, remember I said that there were two houses? And we always kept a key because my father believed that it was a religious duty for us to assist people in need. So he would give the key to the preacher man who when somebody needed a place overnight, he'd give him the key until they trashed the place. But... we were trying to focus in on my runaway capabilities. So we had this second, second place which I could go to. The problem was that was thirteen miles, and seven miles of it was a dirt road. And maybe a car a day. Now you see, you wonder about my intelligence. Well, so do I.

RP: You mentioned that you had some, the transition was difficult in the community as well. How, how did that play out?

DB: Well, it was a very long ongoing process. not exactly caused by local townspeople. But I thought that when I was going to live there, that it was going to be nice, peaceful... that was my expectation. But my expectation was cut very short in that I would say within the first month, school aged kids, you know, sixth, seventh grade, were picking on me, addressing me as "Hey, Jap." "Hey Tojo, get over here." I mean, just same kind of taunting that we had at the relocation, incarceration camp called Manzanar. It just wasn't any different. As a matter of fact, I shouldn't say that it wasn't different. Remember we talked about occasionally you get surrounded by the wagons? Well, as a... in camp, sometimes I would be surrounded. I think if I had, if those same people had been in camp, the relationship would have been different. But they weren't. They were outside so it was the world against Dennis. And, Dennis had a violent temper and that just fed into the campaign of the other side and it became more frequent and ultimately I think caused my parents to move me out of Bishop Elementary School District and take me to Round Valley School District. And I don't recall having the same problems in the different environment. The first environment, it was just, it was a matter of vindictive meanness. I had a lot of things happening.

<Begin Segment 9>

RP: Eventually you kind of adopted sort of a surrogate mother in Bishop. Name was Ruth Pellisier.

DB: Oh, yeah.

RP: How did that come about, Dennis?

DB: Oh, how did it come about? Just, just a, a chance. Remember I told you my father was a doctor. And my surrogate mother, several years after this starts, is named Ruth. And Ruth becomes ill with some kind of long term illness, and she's under the treatment by my father. And, somehow, somehow Ruth agreed to help with the raising of our three, the four children. Just as a therapy to overcome her other problems that she was having. And she was quite contrary to my mother who was dictatorial and saw very little good in any man. And so Ruth observed this and became my surrogate and would explain to my father what had happened that day and so forth. And she tried to be my advocate. And, when you, or if you knew Ruth, she just had the heart of gold. And she was a one man, not man, she would always come to my defense. And it took a while and she never fully... no, not fully. She did recover. And she fixed up a extra room with a couch on it so that when things weren't going well I could, had a place to stay. And, I was self-supporting basically from the time that I was in ninth grade 'til the time I graduated from college. And Ruth never was able to give me any financial help, but she gave me a lot of emotional strength. And, in her own very... I want to say simple, and I'll say simple. But also very meaningful. And she had a daughter and a son which today we treat each others as brothers and sisters. And her husband, Bob, who had about a sixth grade education but who could take anything apart, put it back together, and make it work, had the exceptional ability to do this type of thing. Taught me how to hunt, how to fish, the important things of life. They were very special.

RP: In her interview she spoke, she always spoke very highly of you as well as her husband.

DB: Uh-huh.

RP: Hence...

DB: Well, it's, well, she was... what I would say about our relationship is that in a two years period of time we were closer than we ever were with my mother in fifteen years. I mean, we just, just had the wrong combination, I guess.

RP: Uh-huh. Where did you like to go, or where would Bob take you to fish and hunt? Any special places that you went to?

DB: Oh, Bob would fish in all the drainage ditches around town of Bishop. He would never fish for instance in Bishop Creek 'cause you don't need that much water. You just need a little ditch about like this and you need to be able to outsmart the fish. And so you go out East Line Street to the airport and about five miles before you get to the airport there was a ditch that ran across. It had water all the time. And, he'd say, "I'm gonna go fishing. I'm gonna catch me three fish." He'd come home with three fish. I mean, that was, that was it.

RP: So Bob in his, in his own way sort of introduced you to the natural world to some respect?

DB: Yes and he introduced me to an understanding that if you work hard enough at something, like mechanically, you can be a success. If you don't want to work hard at it you probably won't, you'll probably just become frustrated and throw your tools down and give up. And he'd never let you do that. He'd always say, "Well, try this," or, "Try that." First thing you knew you had your wrench in your hand and you were doing what five minutes before you were, were not letting happen. Yeah.

RP: What about Ruth? What, is there a particular value or lesson that you took from her, from your relationship with her?

DB: Well, Ruth's problem... well, Bob's... Ruth's problem was a health problem. I don't know how many back surgeries she had. She had curvature of the spine from the lack of calcium. In order to, in her late years of life, in order to do her favorite thing which was dig bottles, she had to have a brace. And the brace didn't allow her to walk, it allowed her to drag. So, if you were out hunting you'd see this track, you'd wonder what it was. Well, it was, it was her brace dragging on the ground over to get to the bottles. And she would, all by herself, dig away and collect bottles. I think she had... I built her a couple of bookshelves for her bottles and she must had sixty or eighty bottles on her shelves. And so her lesson became one more of endurance, more of self-satisfaction at being successful. And our relationship, she and my relationship, was more on a... when I was having difficulties I was able to go to her, and she would give me very common sense. And my relationship with her was to build her shelves, do little things around to help, to take the pressure off of her difficult health periods of time. She never really ever recovered from the back problems, etcetera.

<Begin Segment 10>

RP: You attended Bishop High School and graduated there?

DB: Did I?

RP: Yeah.

DB: Yes, I can't say that I was valedictorian, but...

RP: What were your interests at that time in terms of...

DB: Well, I wasn't best athlete that Bishop had. But in the world of track and field I probably held more records, more individual records at one time than anybody else.

RP: Were there particular events?

DB: Well, if you needed a hundred yard dash man, I could do it. If you needed a half-miler, I could do it. If you wanted me to run the mile, I'd probably run it but I don't know how well. But I'd participate in all the running events and was very successful. Successful enough that I went on to college and was a college letterman there. And, I am in their hall of fame which is, right now we're up to fifty outstanding track and field athletes.

RP: And which college would that have been?

DB: It would have been Occidental College. And...

RP: Just to follow up on that, your success in high school, that help in terms of getting acceptance from your peers? How was your high school experience relating back to your grammar school, earlier grammar school experiences?

DB: Well, the, I guess the thing about it is that while in, in grammar school, I confronted it verbally. In high school it wasn't as common but when it did, it's a little hard to be mean or whatever was happening in that early part of life's career. I decided that I was gonna be the best in everything that I attempted to do. And it was my determination that if I was number one, people would respect me and I would eliminate these kind of relationship problems. And fortunately I was correct. I began to be looked up to rather than looked down to because of my physical success. And I think also an attitude. I used to be proud. Originally I... I couldn't handle it. But as I got older I realized that there's fun to be successful. So I just worked a little harder and that was, that was a great time in my life.

<Begin Segment 11>

RP: You eventually... Dennis what, in regards to, you know, your "Japaneseness"...

DB: Japanese what?

RP: Your "Japaneseness."

DB: Oh, all right. Yes.

RP: That part of you, sometimes the, the common reaction is to shun that because it's causing you problems. Did you eventually, were you able to accept that part of you? And when did that occur, if it did completely?

DB: Did I ever do a interview with you before now? Oh.

RP: Never.

DB: Then I can't blame it on you. Well, this is the most fascinating, well, one of the most fascinating things in my life. And it, it started out very negatively. And... it's been a long time germinating and happening. And it only, it was hastened by the 60 Minutes program and things that I have done since that time. Let me say that from the time that I had the 60 Minutes experience, I would shun away from any discussion about my ethnicity because I felt like I had to choose between the Japanese side of me and the Caucasian side of me. And it was easier to shun away than it was to develop some kind of skills to deal with it. So one day, I don't know how, who, but 60 Minutes called and said... well, no, not 60 Minutes. The Fullerton program said that 60 Minutes was interested in doing a film and wondered if, if they could look at your interview. Of course I said yes. And I really didn't know what this all meant but sounded like I might like it. And so I said yes and then I went through the interview procedure and CBS, yeah, it is CBS, CBS did all the work and they, they never told us what was happening. And so I came down to Manzanar to the pilgrimage and they had told me that they wanted me to be televised in that setting. Would I be willing to do it? Well, frankly I had a hard time deciding whether I wanted them to do it. Because as I think I told you, I had to make a distinction between my Japanese side and my American side. And up to this point the American side always won. And my friends told me, "Well, why don't you come on down and just try it and, and see?" So Takato Matsuno talked me into it. And it went fairly well. Or at least I was there on time and they took my picture and so forth. And then the next thing I knew is they wanted additional interviews. Bottom line was, or is, that 60 Minutes opened the gates of my interest and participation in the Japanese side of my family. So much so that I do presentations and I enjoy doing it, a I hope to do more, and I hope others will do more. Because, I don't know about you, but I'm getting a little older and we better figure out some things before it's too late.

RP: Before, before it's all over.

DB: Yeah. So I personally thank CBS for helping me make that distinction, which was your question. How did it come about?

RP: Right. Kind of bringing those two sides together. Were there, from that program, were there any repercussions from your, from the Tojo family? Aside from, 'cause this is after you met your mom and kind of developed, began developing a relationship with that side of the family. What, if any reaction did they have to, to the program and...

DB: Well, the, the policy of CBS at that time was not to broadcast or indicate what was happening with the project. I mean, I learned to call people up there and get answers once in a while, but, but basically I said, "When are you gonna play it? Or are you gonna play it?" And they explained to me how the selection process worked and you would just have to wait until it's your magical turn. That could be tomorrow, it could be whenever. But only one person's going to know. So I think several months go by and I call up my friend who is on the team, the filming team, and the director. And I say to her, "You know, I'd like to make a suggestion." They said, "Okay." I said, "Since World War II every..." what day is that, that celebrates... Memorial, not Memorial... the bombing of Pearl Harbor?

RP: December 7th?

DB: How could I forget? "Since the bombing of Pearl Harbor, every December the 7th, as long as you can remember, has been Tora! Tora! Tora!, and the dropping of the bomb." And I said, "I don't know anything about what the film we were working on looks like, but I'd like to suggest on December the 7th we do something else, something perhaps more meaningful than Tora! Tora! Tora!" And my friend said, "Okay, I'll pass the word on but I don't know." So it's getting closer to December the 7th, and we're not hearing any word. And I don't think we saw any word. Except that it was announced that this program would be on that given night. So it was. Now, my relatives lived, as I told you, in Cincinnati. Which means that they're further out east so they're in the eastern time zone. Which means we get to have a report from them three hours sooner. Now, my mother lived in St. Louis. So she would get it during the same time zone but... and it moved on. Well, my first call was from my uncle who said, "You did a very nice job. It's a very nice production." Oh, I said, "Oh, and I'm in it?" "Yes, you're in it." The next telephone was from my auntie in Alabama, "Dennis, you did an excellent job. Oh, I'm so proud of you." And finally we got to see it. We already knew that we were in it, but we got to see it. And I was so excited.

And, now the sad part. Somewhere in the credits, now I haven't been able to find it, but I'm sure my mother found it or saw it, but someone in the, somewhere in this production gives her name as Anna Tojo and gives also her maiden name, I mean, her married name. She hadn't been married to him for twenty-five years. But she decided that that was her cross to carry and she refused to have any kind of conversation with me for two years. Under the, maybe it wasn't guise, but under the anger that I had given CBS the information about her marriage. Which I tried to explain to her that they had more information on me that I knew existed. But, I didn't get a chance to work with her or talk to her because we live here and they live in St. Louis. And whenever I would pick up the telephone and she'd hear my voice, she'd hang up. So I had to develop some kind of a program to see if we could overcome that. It took me two years. And I started out with a telephone call every week. And I did that. Then I took it upon myself to make several visits to Cincinnati, I mean, to St. Louis, where all my goal was, was to meet her face to face and try and begin the, the process of the healing and resurrection. I finally accomplished that so that when she passed she at least was talking to me. And the final breakthrough is when my nephew got married in St. Louis and we went out to the wedding and there were no placemats as to where we were supposed to sit. So I watched my mother. When she sat down I went over and sat beside her. And the next two hours she never got bombarded by so many questions. And there were all these questions which if she didn't answer, would make her, would give a negative response to her failure to answer. In other words, the questions were designed so that she had to say something even if it was just three words. She had to say something or face the rest of the family. And that started us on the trail of being able to talk again. And at her death, she'd at least no longer slam the phone down.

RP: Dennis, what was, did she have a camp experience during the war?

DB: Yes. She lived in part of California where they sent all the internees to Heart Mountain, which I think is Wyoming. And, that's where she went. Now, she had two sisters. Oh, she had three, maybe four. She had several sisters who lived in Chicago. And because they were in Chicago they were outside, outside of the zone. So, they, that effectively broke the family up into two different situations. So, part of her family wasn't affected and the other part was. So, she was the oldest of the children so she had to go, not had to go, but her location to where she lived sent her to Heart Mountain with my youngest aunt who also went, my one uncle I think... no, he didn't go to Tule Lake. But we have a camp in Tule Lake as you're aware of.

RP: Were you able to kind of share the camp experiences with each other over time? Your mother and...

DB: With my mother? No, no. She was very private and... no. Our conversations were limited to, "Well, is it gonna rain today?" So forth. I mean, you have to take it step by step.

RP: Slowly, yeah.

DB: And we were still taking baby steps. But we were stepping.

RP: You were moving forward.

<Begin Segment 12>

RP: I just wanted to return to, to your life in Bishop. You said you, you went to Occidental College and graduated.

DB: Yes.

RP: And eventually you came back to Bishop and became a teacher.

DB: That's correct.

RP: And, what motivated you to get into teaching?

DB: I don't know whether it was a stroke of brilliance or just a stroke. But as a young man and promulgated by my friend John Nagayama, I, he was a minister and this didn't, it wasn't something that happened because of the two of us, but under his guidance as a small child I... and he, and he became a minister, I decided that I would go into the ministry because of what my friend John had done. And so that's, that was my intent. And then I began putting the dots together and crossing the t's and the i's and decided that I didn't think I could afford to be a preacher. And so I said to myself, "Where is the next area that you can effectively impact on the lives of somebody?" And so I decided that teaching was the way to do it. So I trained to become a teacher, became a teacher, taught for thirteen years, when a new calling opened. And it was the calling of union advocacy on behalf of teachers. And so from 1973 until I retired in nineteen... oh, yeah, 1996? I was active and worked for the teachers union.

[Interruption]

RP: This is tape three of a continuing interview with Dennis Bambauer. And Dennis, we were talking about your plunge into teaching.

DB: My, oh, teaching.

RP: And I'm just curious to know, how did your, how did your experiences with the Children's Village at Manzanar and the previous experience with the other orphanage affect the path your life took? Or did it?

DB: Well, that's a, kind of a puzzle, which I have had difficulty putting it together. Because they say that we are a product of our experiences. And my experiences have for thirty years all been surrounded by advocacy. And I've often wondered what part any of this thing plays in our decision making process. The only thing that I can really tell you is that I tried to be the best and I loved every moment of it. And those are two qualities which I think would make anybody successful.

RP: What did you --

DB: I just have a burning desire to make things better and there are so many people with more problems than we have that I just hope to help 'em.

RP: What, what did you teach when you returned to Bishop and taught at the school, at the high school?

DB: No, I taught at the elementary school.

RP: Oh, you did. Okay.

DB: Which was right across the street from the high school so somebody might get the idea that I was teaching at the high school. But, at the elementary school level I taught fifth grade science and I taught physical education. My major in college was physical education. So, that was my natural instinct to go to.

RP: And how long did you teach in Bishop?

DB: I taught about six years there. I taught six years in Inglewood high school district.

RP: After, after Bishop?

DB: No, before I came to Bishop. Both Charlotte, my ex-wife, and I grew up in Bishop. She moved back to Bishop has lived there where my children have grown. And 'til a few years ago when she moved to the central valley area, Fresno.

RP: Then you married another lady who was, had moved to Bishop?

DB: Yes, Charlotte was my first wife. Sherrill is my second wife. And Sherrill and I met at Bishop where we were both teaching. And in 1973, 1971 -- I hope I get that right -- we married and have been joyously happy ever since.

<Begin Segment 13>

RP: Just a few more questions. What, what do you think... let me just phrase that again. What makes, in your mind, the Children's Village story so important to you as well as, you know, larger public discussing the 60 Minutes program and that type of thing? Why do people need to know about the Children's Village? Why do they need to know about Manzanar?

DB: Well, I'm not so sure that, that I can deal with that question. But what I'm going to say is that the bigger picture is something that I think we can stress. The bigger picture is a history in which a whole small nation lost their civil rights. And that is the issue that I think we need to focus in on. Is to build a political base so that never happens again. And I think it pretty close is happening with the prisoners which have been taken in the, the various wars we're engaged to at the present time. So, I have this concern which is simply that we cannot let it happen again. And that's the overarching issue for me. I probably can, I think, be happy with the American people and our last presidential... I think that was a very significant action of the people and I don't want to get into a big discussion politics, but we were certainly in my opinion going down the wrong path for the last eight years.

RP: In reading the interview that appeared in the book, Twice Orphaned...

DB: Yes.

RP: ...there was a statement that, that you started your search for your, your family --

DB: Yes.

RP: -- on your mother's side in nineteen, I think it was 1957.

DB: That's correct.

RP: And what, why did you start then? What made you want to start that search?

DB: I think couple of things. One thing I think is that the issue of the unknown was plaguing me. The issue of not having a family, other than the family which I helped produce, but no brother, sisters, aunts, uncles, and so forth. Those are the primary reasons. I think that may be a selfish reason. But it was doing no harm. And I got very close in 1958 to coming upon the discovery of my Tojo side of the family. Only to have the person with all the knowledge who was helping to suddenly forget what we were all about. And suddenly couldn't remember anything. Was it a conspiracy? I'm not into conspiracies much but, I really felt that we were very close. And the time went by and I didn't get back to it. You know, I really, the last six years, I really got closer than all the other years because I was putting forth an effort. And it was just a stroke of luck that the Tojo family appeared in northern California, a member of the Tojo family appeared in northern California. A friend of mine happened to see her name on the expected guest list, and it was Tojo. And from there eight months and we had closure on that issue in spite of my mother's denial. She, she never fully confessed, fully indicated that she was my mother. Close, but if you were to ask her to tell you that she was, she'd tell you all that she knew which was probably, I don't want to answer that question.

RP: In addition to you telling your story, sharing your experiences as you have, have you been politically involved in any movements such as the redress effort or...

DB: No, I wasn't into, involved. I did receive the redress money and...

RP: And what were your feelings about that?

DB: I think it should have been bigger. I personally took my redress money and gave it to nonprofit organizations. So in that way I think I was taking that sum of money and using it to an advantage for the welfare of others. I've fully supported the redress movement. My involvement was not in that. I've been involved with other organizations, individual rights and so forth. Just because of the nature of my work and love.

NH: And I was wondering about your work with the schools. Could you describe a little more about what that job was after you got done teaching? You said it had to do with unions, but I was curious. Could you give more detail on that?

DB: Well, my job as the union advocate was to create a system in which the union could effectively represent its membership. In the area of teacher rights, for instance, they had the right to have some rules and regulations, but they had no right to enforce them. So one of the early career activities that we had as a union was to dispel that belief that the teachers had all this power. They didn't have any power at all. 'Cause if somebody, if you can do something and somebody can grab it out and put it over here, you have lost everything. Then we came to a period of time in which the current situation occurs where there are collective bargaining rights. This effectively gives the teachers a vehicle to enforce the agreement that they have with the board of education. And theoretically both sides have similar powers. But the fact is that may be true in some instances and it may be true less. But the premise is there of the equality of the relationship and the power of the relationship. Now, the particular job that I was in, I was a generalist. I handled everything from, "The principal changed the grade that I gave the student," to organizing for teacher strikes, to generally make life pleasant, better, for my client. And we did that locally by supporting candidates. We'd do it on a statewide by our ability to influence the... you know, the current political body. We do it just by getting out and pounding the streets, handing out fliers and bringing it to the attention the dissatisfaction teachers have with whatever is happening. And those were fun days. They were. It was fun. I'd like to do it again. But I'm too old. Did you have another question? I wish you had of.

RP: Dennis, do you have any other stories or remembrances that you'd like to share that we haven't touched on yet? Or, perhaps I can frame it this way. Do you have any lessons from all your experiences that you would share with young people?

DB: Yes. And, it's not very limited. But I would tell them that we as a country, we as a nation, must protect vigorously our Bill of Rights. Because that's the only protection and strength that we have. And, I could not overstress that. I could not overstress it.

RP: On behalf of Nancy and myself and the National Park Service, thank you for a very special interview.