Densho Digital Archive - John Tomita Interview

<Begin Segment 1>

KP: I'll start off by introducing the tape. This is an oral history with John Tomita. And we are at the Teramachi --

JT: Condominium.

KP: -- Condominiums, in, on 267 San Pedro Street, Los Angeles, California. And the interviewer today is Kirk Peterson and with me working the camera is Richard Potashin, and we are doing this interview for the Manzanar National Historic Site. It'll be held at that site so it'll be part of the National Historic Site's collection. And, do we have your permission to record this interview today?

JT: Yes.

KP: All right, well, thank you very much. Is it okay if I call you John?

JT: Yes.

KP: Okay. So let's start at the beginning. When and where were you born?

JT: I was at, in a little town called Isleton, California. It's on the Delta of Sacramento River. It's only about thirty, maybe thirty-five miles from Sacramento. And my father was farming and from, when over a year, he move into town to start a restaurant business.

KP: What year were you born?

JT: 1920.

KP: 1920. And let's step back and talk about your father a little bit. Where did your father come from in Japan?

JT: Yeah, my father came from this small country called, well, anyway, it, he is from Kumamoto province. Kumamoto province and near the city of Kikuchi. And there's a little village right next to Kikuchi called Daidoson. And my, my mother came from Kikuchi too but she came from a different village. They call it Nishidera, yeah, Nishidera.

KP: So when did your father, what did your father's family do in Japan do you know?

JT: Oh, my father, the farmers, he was the only son with nine sisters. And he was really spoiled in Japan. And, but he, I guess he was adventuresome. He left Kumamoto when he was around sixteen years old. And he had a married sister in Hilo, Hawaii. Yeah, and so he came to Hilo. But I understand that was before the First World War started and I guess, I don't know, I don't know whether it was his idea or my father's idea, but they decided, he decided to come to America and he was going to start shipping produce from California to Hawaii. That, that was the business they were gonna start. So, at sixteen he came to California and looked... but then the First World War started and the Germans start sinking all the shipment from United States to Hawaii. So the trading business didn't work out so he, he started the restaurant business in Isleton. And...

KP: So this was all right around the time of the First World War that he started his restaurant?

JT: Yeah. So, I know my sister was born in 1918 and I was 1920. And the First World War was 1918. So, anyway, and as far as my father, but he was quite a, I didn't realize it until... I knew there was a gentleman that used to visit our family every so often. He always dressed very nicely and he, he liked my sister because she must have been a real cute gal. But I'm the brother, he didn't care too much for me. But the thing is, all I remember that man is that he always giving a dollar bill, anyway, a bill to her but she, he only give me a fifty cents or something. So I always, you know, envied my sister, because she's getting the dollar bills and I'm getting the fifty-cents... but, and then I, gosh, we were so small, I know he was a big man. But, later on I heard that he was working for the Japanese government, setting up the, not a casino, but gambling houses. He, I understand he set up the gambling houses in L.A., Fresno, Sacramento, up in Portland, Seattle. And he, I, that's what I heard much, much later.

KP: So what do you think his connection was with your father? Why were they friends?

JT: That's the part that was amazing. There's, there's an old picture of my father when, when he got married. You should have seen the, the... I don't, I can't find that picture now. But he had a, a topcoat, a beautiful topcoat and a derby. He looked very fancy in the picture. And I often wondered where he got it. So I presume that he must have got it from this man that... and he, this man, while he was setting up all these gambling joints, I think he was in Lodi, a, a man came after him with a knife. Yeah, and so he had to shoot him to protect himself. Because, so, he had to go to prison, this man. But he was sent to San Quentin. But I did, my dad kept on telling me, "He's not in the prison." But he's at San Quentin. So I said to him, "He has to be in jail." But later on I found out that there was apartments in San Quentin for the prisoners. And he, this man, though he killed a man and he, and he was in prison, supposed to be in San Quentin prison, but he's living in apartment. And my father always said this. So he'd take him food and clothing and stuff. And so I don't know whether it's true or not, but that's what I was told. So this man was in apartment and then when he was released from San Quentin, he went back to Japan and I understand when he went back to Japan, he went to Manchuria to set up the same thing for the government. Yeah.

<Begin Segment 2>

KP: So, what are your earliest memories of Isleton?

JT: The earliest memory, you know, I don't know. It must have been when I was about five or six years old. They, it was a wooden sidewalk, it was a wooden sidewalk. And the, well, the contractor or whoever, they were taking the board off and every time they take the board off there's some coins down there. And we used to fight for that coins. [Laughs] Yeah, so that's about the earliest. And then in 1926, the whole Chinese and the Japanese town, maybe about fifteen, fifteen, twenty, about twenty buildings on the Japanese side and about maybe twenty buildings on the Chinese town, the fire start... we were, at that time I heard that Chinese gambler fell asleep with cigarette in his hand and that start, started the fire. But, in the Japanese section they gathered all the children and I remember there was, we were on the truck and they, they took us to a pear orchard about a half-mile away from the town. And then they kept, they told us kids to stay there so the parents could get their stuff out. But I could see the fire started jumping from next building or it goes beyond a couple buildings then spark flies and it start burning that, the whole Chinese and Japanese section of town all burned down. I heard that the fire department were all volunteer firemen were at a picnic at a town called Davis. Davis is just west of Sacramento. I don't know, anyway, the, the fire, all the Caucasians had a big picnic, so nobody could start the fire engine. Anyway, the whole town burned down.

KP: Did your father have a restaurant in town at that time?

JT: Yes, he had a restaurant. And then...

KP: Did he lose everything?

JT: Yeah, they lost everything. Though somehow I guess the Japanese from all, all over the state, whatnot, they, they heard about it. They read it in the paper. And so they start pouring donation to the town. So somehow I, you know, I'm only six years old, so I was not... but that's what I heard. That, that's how they, they re-built the town.

KP: Did they just rebuild the Japanese section of town or the Chinese section?

JT: The Chinese section, the whole town. I don't know, so, I don't know how the Chinese got their money. But, but the Chinese... there was big people because they had the market and they had a gambling house. They had about one... so they had two big gambling houses. So, but they built, built the town too. And the Japanese section, I heard a lot of donation came in and that's how they got, yeah, uh-huh.

KP: How did your father react to that fire? I mean, do you remember him? Just was...

JT: You know, with Japanese father I, my father especially, they don't tell us anything. Yeah. We really didn't know what was going on. They, they, but I still vividly see the fire jumping from... you know. And all the kids in the trucks are crying. And I still remember, I was the only one that wasn't crying. I wanted to go down to watch the fire. But I was afraid to leave the truck because we were all in the orchard. It was a pear orchard about half a mile from... it wasn't that far.

KP: Did you, did you personally, I mean, you're only six years old, but did you notice any kind of adversity from the effects of the fire that your family had to go through? Was it difficult before the place got rebuilt or...

JT: No, I can't remember that. But, everybody got a house built though. And all the families that, that was living in town... I know my father was quite a businessman and he had a lot of contact. Maybe I shouldn't tell you this, but I, the thing that we used to do for him, I mean... well, he was a bootlegger actually. [Laughs] And I know we had the only phone in, in town. Everybody would have to come to our place to use the phone 'cause we were the only phone. But, I realized later on in my life I knew why he had the telephone. And, and somehow I remember we had a Ford, a Dodge, a Chrysler, and I asked my dad, how come you didn't... Chryslers, I said... well, that's the fastest car you could get and, and, yeah. See, he was getting liquor from... but, you know I never seen him go anywhere. But he seemed to bring his liquor. And this special wall on the floor (is a) little tiny hole, he put the pin down to unloosen the latch and the door opened up and, and on the wall we used to push that thing and it open up the door and that's where we used to put all the liquor. And, as a kid, we don't know any better. It, we thought we were just helping Mom put, putting things away. And, but and all these, he had this... I know one time he got a call that the, the county sheriffs are gonna raid our place. He got a telephone call. He put, clean everything up, make sure. And then they came, couldn't find anything. And we, every so often we, we get a raid on it. And then they, I understand that I, but I was told that my mother forgot to clean the cup, clean one of the cup that had, someone drank. And the sheriff found it and they, so they, my dad had to go to the county jail. But that may be part that he went to jail but early next morning he's back already. So...

KP: Do, do you remember these raids?

JT: Huh?

KP: Do you remember the raids when the police came?

JT: Yeah, I remember those raids.

KP: What did your... you were still a young child?

JT: Yeah.

KP: And what did you, what were you told about those when the police came? What did your parents tell was going on? Do you remember?

JT: No, they didn't tell us anything. And, and we didn't ask because it's obvious the, the county sheriff came and, and they, they poked the walls and whatnot and check everything. But they, they never found anything. But we knew where it was but I, we saw the sheriff coming by and go to each room and you know... but they, they always check in the wrong room. I don't know whether they...

KP: What did you think about that as a kid?

JT: Huh. We thought it was a game. Yeah. We thought it was a game. And, gee, and then, you know my father somehow, he knew which farmer is making wine and he goes to Lodi, he knew where the wineries are. I couldn't figure that out. I, how did he know there was a winery? But as I got older, I think it was 1932, when I was twelve years old, Roosevelt came in made it wet. I mean, everybody could drink in the United States. And my dad, and, and you could buy beer. At twelve years old I'd drive to Sacramento Brewery, which is about thirty miles away, I'd drive to Sacramento to the brewery and pick up two case, two case of beer. That's all they pass out to each restaurant owner. And, and I used to go pick it up at, at twelve. Twelve I'm driving on the highway. I see the... you know, those days I remember the highway patrol used to give the driving test. They were doing it at this garage that my dad owns too, so I used to see them. They, they give the test. So, that highway patrol knows my dad. He knows me because I'm always in that garage. And every time I see him on the highway I just wave at him. Yeah. I'm, I still remember, I'm driving on the highway, right through the steering wheel. I can't, I can't get above the steering wheel, but I know I'm looking through the steering wheel and driving. And If you know that, that delta, that highway is only for, is only two lane. Every winter somebody's land in the river. Yeah, so my father, I remember, he want to get the tow truck but the tow truck he, he couldn't afford it you see. But I remember I went to see a couple of tow truck. We went as far down as Merced to look at a tow truck. But he couldn't. Because he figured that he could make a fortune towing... [Laughs]

KP: So, your father at this time still had the store, restaurant, right?

JT: Yes.

KP: But he also had a garage?

JT: Garage. Yes. What I heard is that he loaned that man, I don't know how much he loaned. But he couldn't pay it back so my father took over the garage.

<Begin Segment 3>

KP: So, what was the first school you attended in Isleton?

JT: Grammar...

KP: Which school, do you remember?

JT: Yes, Isleton grammar school, that's the only school there is. Well, they had two grammar school but one across the street and one...

KP: What was the difference between the two schools?

JT: Oh, I remember when we at eighth grade we had to take a county examination to graduate from grammar school. So, I know the lowest grade in the Oriental school was something like eighty-five or something. And that was the highest grade on the Caucasians and we used to fight a lot. Oh, yeah, you know those Caucasians, when they're young, they're much taller and everything. So they pick on the Asian kids 'cause they're small. And a lot of the Asian kids, they don't fight back. And those Caucasian kids used to beat up farmers out in the farm because nobody's there to protect them. And so somehow I was known as a fighter. [Laughs] And it's not a good name but they, they called Kenka Daisho. Kenka Daisho means "fighting kid"

[Interruption]

KP: Okay. We were talking about how you got a reputation of being a fighter?

JT: Oh, yeah.

KP: And what was the word that you said that you were called?

JT: They called Kenka Daisho. That means leader, well, fighting leader. The parents in the little town they called me Kenka Daisho, leader of the fighter. But that Kenka Daisho title is not a good term for, for any kids to be named. But I was known to be... I, somehow I was, when I was a kid seemed like I was pretty big for my age. Yeah, and I'm only fighting with kids that are older than I am. And, somehow since the Caucasian kids are tough, I mean, I remember when we were playing soccer, soccer game get a little close, we have to beat the, the white kids by at least, by double the amount. [Laughs] And if you get close I challenged the kids to come, go behind the backstop so the teacher can't see. We get behind the backstop and we pound each other. [Laughs] I, as I remember I, all I did was just tackle the guy and knock him out. I can't reach him because he's so tall. I tackle him and knock him down and I used to pound him. [Laughs]

KP: So you say in your, in your grammar school, it was an Asian grammar school.

JT: Yes.

KP: What, what sort of ethnic makeup was in that school?

JT: Chinese, Japanese, and Filipinos were at that time.

KP: And how did all those different groups get along?

JT: Oh, I think we got along real well because my good friend was Lee Tim, Chinese guy. And I remember he, his father left him, left the family or something and so he, even though he was going to grammar school, he was supporting the family. Lee Tim. I still remember that kid. So, I was really close to him. It seemed like, you know, I never want to fight with kid my age or any kids smaller. I, they come after me sometimes, they, some kids urge them to fight with me but I wouldn't bother. I remember, was it in first grade or something? The kid came after me so I said no don't, don't bother me. And I just touched him and he fell down and he started crying. And I get reported to the teacher that I picked on him. And I say, oh my goodness. But, as I remember... but white I remember anytime they, they don't have to tell me anything. I just go after them. [Laughs]

KP: So, what kind of other activities did you do as a, as a kid in grammar school? You went to school. You helped, did you help out at the store or...

JT: Yeah. Well, as summer get close we spent a lot of time along the river. Yeah, we eat the wild berries and we used to take a rowboat, go across the river to the persimmon farm. We used to steal persimmon. Go up the river here and... oh, the one that cherry tree about a mile from the bridge that we, oh boy, I still remember, I, we were picking cherries up on... I was on the top. I'm always, always the top guy. I had to pick the cherry on the top of the tree and, and the farmer came out and said, he's yellin' and then shot a gun. I don't know whether he was shooting at us or anyway, we heard the shot and boy, all the kids, kids were running already when they heard the hollering. I was still up there. But, I was eating the cherries up there and then when I heard the shot, boy, I didn't climb down. I just jumped down. And as I remember it was about at least twenty feet up there in the air. And I jumped down and man those guys were running already. I passed them up. [Laughs] Got to, to the bridge, under the bridge and hid there. Yeah.

KP: So what, do you have, you said you had an older sister?

JT: Oh yes. I had one older sister, yeah.

KP: And her name was?

JT: Yasuyo.

KP: And she was born...

JT: In 1919 or something. Yeah, nineteen... yeah, she was born early nineteen... see, I was born late 1920.

KP: When, was that all of your brothers and sisters?

JT: No. Then I have two sisters below me and then two brothers below the sisters.

KP: Can you give us their names and the years they were born if you remember?

JT: see Yasuyo was born 1918, 1919, 1918. And then I was born 1920. And then Tomi -- every two years -- so '22, and Aiko is '24, and Bob, Bob is '26, yeah '26. Then Aki is '31 or something. He was the baby, yeah.

KP: Sounds like you were a busy big brother with...

JT: Yes. That's why in camp I was kinda stuck. My older sister, she was a nurse. She was going, she was in her second year of nursing school. And, and she couldn't get accepted from any other nursing that would take her as a second year student because she was Japanese, she couldn't. So, and my sister, Tomi, was at the Sacramento Junior College. So he, she, they, so Yas and Tomi went to Denver and Yas couldn't go to school so she worked as a nurse's aide or something and paid the expenses for Tomi, University of Denver. So Tomi graduated from University of Denver.

KP: This was during the war?

JT: Yes, during the war.

KP: So then, back in your early childhood days, when you're out raiding orchards and getting in trouble with farmers, were any of your brothers or sisters involved in that? Or was it just kids your own age?

JT: No, they weren't.

KP: Okay.

<Begin Segment 4>

KP: And your mother, she worked? What did she do in that time?

JT: Well, she did everything. Yeah, she was a waitress and she did cooking and yeah. Yeah, as far as breakfast and dinner, etcetera, we all ate together. But never, I remember my mother was never involved. She was always in the kitchen. And she's cooking something. Oh, she was a great pastry maker. She was the daughter of a confectionary store in Japan. So, oh, she used to whip out any, any pastry that... she was a terrific...

KP: Was it an arranged marriage between your mother and father?

JT: Yes. I found out a lot later when I went to Japan when I was in the '50s. Met the cousins and whatnot and they were telling me how my mother, she, before she could go to school she had to make something for the store that she had to make it and then she could go to store. And she, she must have been a pretty smart gal because she was attending one of the top high schools in Kumamoto. And in order to enter that school you have to be smart to, to enter that high school. And I understand with low I.Q. they cannot attend that school. So, now, back in '50s they were telling me that it was just like... the high school was just like a, a college in those days. So, they consider her among the smart gals. Yeah, I understand, see my father was, came to America when he was sixteen and then he went back to get a wife. And he picked her and she was still going to school so she was around eighteen I guess when she got married. And, the, my cousin and relative in Japan tells me that, yeah, he was, wasn't supposed to come back to America. The arranged marriage, this was an arranged marriage, that he was supposed to stay on the farm. See, my father is the only son so in Japan, where he came from, the number one son inherit the whole family's estate. So they had a, my father's father never actually farmed. He got the land from his father and so he, they rent the farm out to various people that want to farm and they live off of them. But, according to my mother, I mean, my father's father was a very generous person. They supposed to give so many sack of rice and, and then from the rice they make the sake and then it, always New Year time he distributed the sake to the, to the village people.

KP: So why do you think your father... it sounds like he had a pretty good deal going in Japan with inheriting that farm. Why do you think he gave that up and went to the United States?

JT: Well, he, what I heard... when he was in Japan, all he did was taking care of horse. He had a pet horse. All he'd do is wash that horse and once a year they have some kind of a fair and he raced that horse. That's all, that was his job. But, so he could have stayed, yeah. But somehow he didn't want to stay there. And he came, yeah.

<Begin Segment 5>

KP: Well let's, let's get back into Isleton and your, and the grammar school there, during that time.

JT: Yeah.

KP: What kind of languages did you grow up with?

JT: You know, as I remember, we were all speaking Japanese in a public school. And every so often they set up a rule that you can't speak Japanese in, in the public school. And that they used to, people that tell, try to catch you speaking Japanese. But, yeah, there was, they tried to make us speak English. What I heard when I went to, after I left Isleton, I went to Berkeley. And when I went to Berkeley, they thought I was a kid from Japan because I was speaking English with Japanese accent. I didn't know that. Because I came from a community that spoke nothing but Japanese. But I know the parents of older people in other cities, they liked us because we spoke good Japanese.

KP: So, was Chinese also spoken at your grammar school, do you remember that?

JT: I really don't know. They must have been speaking because there, there was no English [Laughs]

KP: Who were your teachers and what were they speaking?

JT: Oh, we, it's all Caucasian teachers. Yes. I remember I got sent to the principal several times because I didn't want to participate in the program and whatnot. But the principal was real nice. I liked sports and the principal knew that. So he'll, he, we just talk about sports. And then he sent me back. He'd just tell me, "Just listen to your teacher." So I said, okay. [Laughs] But, yeah, the teachers, I thought they were pretty good teachers, yes. In grammar school I never thought I was studying at all but I must have studied a little.

KP: Did you participate in a lot of sports?

JT: Yes. Well, I'm the captain of the baseball, captain of the basketball, captain of the soccer. And any fight, I'm right there.

KP: Captain of the fights, too.

JT: Yeah, in fact, in grammar when, when I became, eighth grade we have to go to high school. We have to go to next town. Rio Vista is, that's the only high school there. So we had to go to Rio Vista. The coaches at Rio Vista High, I knew two of 'em, the basketball coach, he made sure that I came out for basketball. And the football coach came and told me, came to my home and said, "You're gonna start playing football the first year." I might not get to play too much the first year but by sophomore, he said, "I guarantee you'll be on the first string." [Laughs]

RP: John, can you tell us a little bit more about your father's restaurant? What type of clientele did they have? What type of food did they serve? Did you work there?

JT: Actually, the only thing I used to work in the restaurant was I had to bring in the first log from the back. From the log, it went into coal. I was, I was the, well, I bring in those stuff. And then take the garbage out. I was the garbage man. And every so often I'd forget and my dad used to come after me. [Laughs] Yeah, he was a tough dad, but he was a good dad.

RP: What type of food did you serve, did they serve in, in your father's restaurant?

JT: Oh, they served just about everything. I know, I used to love the stew, stew that they used to make. I mean, but, yeah, I know my dad's, his breakfast is steak and glass of wine. That's his breakfast. I still remember that. Yeah, oh... and then we'd, we had two, Chinese, we had Chinese and English food. And we had a Chinese cook and a English cook. I don't know... my dad wasn't doing much those days. But then when the Depression came, yeah, he had to take over. But, yeah, as far as serving the customers, doing the waiter work like that, I didn't do a thing because my sisters were doing the, taking care of that.

<Begin Segment 6>

RP: You mentioned that there was a Chinese section on one side of town and a Japanese section on the other.

JT: Right.

RP: Do you recall some of the other stores or businesses that comprised the Japanese section?

JT: Well, yeah, they had a hardware store. And after the hardware store there was a candy store. And then Furukawa, what they were doing? I know they had rooms upstairs and, and then Sawadas had the, they had the, they had the movie house that the, Sawada, the movie house. And oh, there was always gambling going back there, so. Yeah. Gosh, a lot of the gambling. Then the Hirano, Hirano, they had a room and pool table. That's right, they had a pool table there. And the Ike family had the laundry, they had a laundry. Then our, our house, we had the restaurant. And then Matsushita, that's a barbershop. And, so there's a, I guess a lotta hotels were there. Oh, and Fujimotos, the shoe store, yeah, shoe store. And then yeah, and the shoe repair store. And then another pool, pool hall. Yeah. And then a Chinese restaurant down there. Then our garage, we had the garage there, and the fish store. Well, there were two fish stores right there. And the barbershop. Barbershop, and oh, the bathhouse. We had a bath but we used to always go to the bathhouse. Yeah, Matsura. And another grocery store (...). And the hotel and another fish market, fish market and a shoe store, another... another market. And another barbershop, and hotel, and the dry goods store.

RP: And all these businesses were run by Japanese?

JT: Yes. All Japanese families were running it, yeah.

KP: What kind of, what kind of community events did you go to? What was celebrated in the out and in the Japanese town? Any traditional Japanese holidays?

JT: Yeah, I... you know, those days, I don't know why they, they used to have, celebrate the Emperor's birthday. I don't know why but they always have some kind of program going on Emperor's birthday.

KP: What else do you remember celebrating? Boys Day? Girls Day? Did you do that, or...

JT: Gee, they had the, I know they had the parties. I thought they were graduation party or something. Japanese school graduation, you know.

KP: Did you go to Japanese school?

JT: Yes, I, after the grammar classes we go down to one hour after. I cut that... [Laughs] I think I was a bad boy, I mean...

KP: How far did you get, do you remember?

JT: Well, they called the, I went to every class but as I got older, I used to cut more and so they, they used to call my dad and, and I lied to him. [Laughs] But... yeah, I wish I had studied more.

KP: What, what kind of religion was your family? Or what kind of religion do you remember growing up with or did you?

JT: You know, as far as... we went to Buddhist Temple. Whenever they have ice cream or some kind of, something to eat, I'm right there. [Laughs] But if they're not passing out anything, I'll hang around there but I try not to get, get into the service part.

KP: So was your father's restaurant open seven days a week or just... every day of the week or do they?

JT: Every day of the week. I don't remember that they ever closed. Yeah.

RP: John, do you remember any prefectural picnics for Kumamoto?

JT: Yeah. Yeah.

RP: The kenjinkai?

JT: Yeah. My father's from Kumamoto-ken so, yeah the Kumamoto people. And then they, they had the town picnic too. Yeah, the town. And then we, we all participate in sport. You know, sumo, sumo, yeah. We had a very tough teacher, Mr. Araki. He was one of the, well, actually he was one of the top athlete, the Japanese athlete of that time. I understand he played for Sacramento Solos, tried out for them.

RP: They were a baseball team?

JT: Yeah, baseball. But we had baseball team and our sumo team, I was on that team. We won three tournament in a row so we had a big trophy like this, with our name on it. And, in fact I had that trophy to about twenty years ago. Because I heard that they started the, in Isleton there's supposed to be a museum of the, well, the people of Isleton. So when I visit Isleton one time I took the trophy and... I didn't want to hang on to that thing. And everybody was spread out and whatnot. So, I donated it to the museum in Isleton.

[Interruption]

RP: Do you also, were you involved in any other martial arts like kendo or judo?

JT: You know, they did have it but when we joined, then it folded. So we never continued. Oh, and then the fire took all our equipment so that cut the program out.

RP: You mentioned that you had a movie theater in that downtown area, the Japanese town movie theater?

JT: Yeah. Well, they used, you know, it was just a hall. It was, you know, before the war there was a, the gentleman from L.A. you know, bring the movie to each community, yeah. And in those days he does the talking part. He take the man part, the lady's part, the kid part. And yeah, we used to, we used to see. We used to love the chanbara. Chanbara is old samurai picture. As a kid... next day everybody have a stick and have sword fight.

KP: One other, we've talked about the community you were in, Isleton had a Japanese section, Chinese section, and Filipino section?

JT: There wasn't that many Filipino. Yeah, there was only one or two families. They were... and they come in during the season to do the asparagus cutting and whatnot. Yeah.

KP: Any...

JT: I don't know where they came from, but they were there.

KP: Any other ethnic groups in your community?

JT: I remember there was one black family came in. He, that family was the foreman to one of the farms. He was the foreman. So he had his family there and, and he had three or four children and they didn't know where to put that, that black family. In the white or the Oriental. And he didn't fit in. So, it was only one family, only three kids or something. And what they finally decided, they put with the white. The black family stayed in the white school. And, and mixed with the Asians.

KP: Did you ever have any interaction with those kids?

JT: After my time, yeah so. So I was not involved with them.

<Begin Segment 7>

KP: So from the Isleton grammar school you said you went next to the high school.

JT: Yeah, well, I thought I was gonna go to Rio Vista high school until a week before school started. Then we, my dad asked me if I wanted to go to school in Berkeley. So, being a wild kid, I said, "Hell yeah. I'll go." And I did go to Berkeley. I went to Willard junior high school. The most loneliest time I ever had in my life was leaving Isleton and going to school in Berkeley.

RP: Where did you stay? Where did you, where did you go?

JT: Well, see, my father had a friend in Berkeley and I guess through correspondence I guess and they, he had one spare room and I was able to move into that room. But, turned out that when we went out there, that family had already rented that room to some other people so they didn't have a room for me. So, they took me to this person's friend's about a mile away, up in the hill. He had a room in the back cottage. Though they rented the back cottage so fourteen year old kid leaving home from Isleton to Berkeley and then going to a strange neighborhood. I didn't even know where the school was or what. And that was my... but I don't see how my dad ever let a fourteen year old kid leave like that. He took me out to Berkeley and we went out to dinner, and he left. So I was stuck out there. But, I look back at it now, I mean, I grew up, I mean I had to grow up. And I used to cry myself to sleep every night. The sad part of it is that train that I came from, there was a train that runs from Sacramento to, to the Bay Area, they called it the Sacramento Northern, and it doesn't come to Isleton but it comes to quite a way from Rio Vista. Though my dad knew how to get there and put me on that train and then that train... and every time when they come over the hill in the Berkeley hills, I hear the train whistle. And, and it's always nine o'clock when that train is comin' over the mountain and I hear the train whistle and nine o'clock at night and boy I couldn't hold my tears. I just had to jump in the bed and tears just keep on falling. And I used to, so I'd study until nine o'clock and then jump in bed. Yeah, and those were my loneliest times. But it made me stronger.

KP: Why do you think your father did that? Looking back, why do you think your father...

JT: Well, just because he left home at sixteen, I figure. Yeah, at fourteen I'm old enough to take care of myself. Yeah. But boy, when I had my kid, when he was fourteen, I say, gosh how can, I can't let him go anywhere. But my dad took me and left me there. But it made me grow up. I learned to wash my own clothes. I even learned to iron the white shirts, iron my slacks. All I do is spread it out and put under the mattress. Yeah, I learned to take care of myself.

KP: And how was school different in Berkeley?

JT: Oh, gosh, you know, good thing I was tough kid. I mean I, somehow I knew I was gonna take care of myself. I didn't know where school was. They, told me, "It's that way." And I went there. And I registered and then I, gosh... and I didn't have any friends or anybody. So, I had to make my own friends. But, you know, the friends that I had was Caucasians. Here I used to fight with them. [Laughs] In Berkeley I got the, these kids, they were the only ones, friendly ones. They wouldn't let many, there was only about five Japanese. And I thought they were a bunch of snobs. Yeah, and so I used to hang around with white kids. Yeah, oh, I was playing baseball. I was on the American Legion yeah, Lumpy Lion... it was Lumpy Lion or something. You know, American Legion team. And then basketball, school. I liked sports. I was always involved in sports mainly.

KP: Is that primarily how you met your friends, in sports?

JT: Yeah. Uh-huh. That's how I met my friends. Yeah, yeah. I remember when baseball games and the practices, yeah, I'm riding on the, I'm either pumping or I'm riding on the back seat going to the park going to the ball game. But I was always running around with white kids.

KP: What, how were the scholastics there? Did you find yourself becoming a more serious student?

JT: Yeah. You know I didn't have any, I didn't have any friends at home. So that's the only thing that kept me going was studying. I didn't realize that I had to go to junior high school when I was in the ninth grade and, and the ninth grade I had a, yeah a Mrs. Harris. She was my math teacher. And she always encouraged me to study math and, and I thought I liked that teacher, Mrs. Harris. I still remember the old lady. She encouraged me to take up engineering. So I didn't know anything about engineering. So I was taking college prep courses. But many years later that I found I didn't know that they had this XYZ group in high school. They, by IQ they arrange the classes for you. If you're X-section you, you're with all the brains. And if you're Y or Z group, you, you take much simpler course and they're rated. I always, I didn't realize why I was in this X group and why they take the same chem tests, I get eighty and that's a C in X-section. But if you're in, in the Y, Z, that's a B. And, gosh, so I thought I was getting cheated all the time. But it turned out that I was in with all the, the... my classmates, I tell you, they go to Europe or they go back east, and gosh, I used to envy those kids. When I went into chem, gosh, they were hardly studying. They were goofing off and, gosh, they were smart all right. But, oh gee, I know it said, that guy, Hoffman, yeah, Hoffman, oh gosh, he got involved with some gal and he shot himself. And...

KP: This was in high school?

JT: Yeah. Right before we went into Cal. So senior year in high school. Yeah, this... I guess they, the senior, I guess they start goofing around with gals, I guess. Hoffman, this Guy Bradshaw, Bradshaw, Guy Bradshaw, yeah, in the chem lab he makes his own poison and drank, drinks it. Yeah. And Hildebrand. I didn't know, he was a, really a sissy kid. He hardly played sports or anything. Sissy kid. And then found out that the, his father is a professor at Cal. He's teaching chemistry. I'm taking, I'm taking chemistry class and, and wouldn't you know, he tells me, he trying to help me with the chem stuff. And I says, "How come you know so much?" He says, "Well my dad is teaching at..." [Laughs]

<Begin Segment 8>

KP: This is tape two of a continuing interview with John Tomita. And, we were talking about how you got dropped off in Berkeley to attend school when you were fourteen years old.

JT: Yeah.

KP: How did, how did you feel about being... you said there were only maybe five other Japanese in the whole school. Were you very self-conscious that you were a minority in that school or...

JT: Funny, I never felt all, at all. And here I'm living in a Caucasian home. I stayed at home and I helped prepare breakfast and make my own lunch and go to school. Somehow it seems like, I really felt that, gee, they didn't even think that I was struggling. It, for me, it was just a survival, surviving. I mean that's, that was my life and I didn't think anything of it.

KP: So you'd come from segregated schools in Isleton...

JT: Yeah.

KP: To I guess an integrated school in Berkeley.

JT: Yeah.

KP: And didn't really have any thoughts about that?

JT: No.

KP: Or just, just the way it was, or...

JT: Yeah. I didn't think anything of it. I go to the class. I remember when I was junior.. there was a spring break, I think, what was it, it was a spring break and, with school. And that, that's the time of asparagus season in Isleton. So I used to go home and during the spring break I'd work in the asparagus farm. And that year, asparagus farm, I worked, I didn't know that, but the water that we were drinking was coming from the well right there in, in that camp that we were staying. And that, that year I got typhoid fever. When I went back to school in Berkeley, all of a sudden I'm getting a, a high fever and whatnot. And the doctor checked me out and I had typhoid. So I got, they put me in the Alameda County hospital. I was stuck in Alameda County hospital about a month. As a kid I really didn't know that was, I had typhoid. But I found out after, I think four weeks I think I was in there, then they told me I had a typhoid. But, after four week I guess... in fact, I was in isolation (there). I was wondering why I was isolated. And my folks were in Isleton. So nobody came to visit me. And, and I don't know, I guess my dad had to pay the bill, but, but after four weeks of absent from school I remember the report card came out and I know my history teacher... my math teacher, and mechanical drawing class, they gave me my average grade because I was sick. But then my history teacher wouldn't give me the... so I had to, you know at, at that age I still argued with that teacher. I said, "Why can't I?" And she said she'll, well, you'll have to, you didn't take a test. I said, "Well, give me the test then." And then she said, "Okay, if you, if you pass this test I'll give you the grade that you, you get on this test." And so after school I'm taking the test. No preparation or anything. And I got ninety or something. And then she says, "Well, okay." "You should give me at least an A-minus," I told her. But she said no, she can't give me an A-minus. I said, "Why can't you? You promised me if I take this test." But tell him again. So all she gave me was B. I thought oh, well, I argued. I remember arguing with her. But I had the nerve to argue. I was in junior high school. Yeah, Mrs. Green. Gosh, so I hated that teacher. [Laughs] But she was right though. I was out, out too long. But...

KP: So how often were you able to go back to Isleton while you were in Berkeley? Just spring break? How often did you go back to Isleton?

JT: Yes.

KP: And that was the only time or...

JT: Yeah, and the summer vacation.

KP: Summer. Okay.

JT: Spring break and yeah, so, when I was, started going to Berkeley, spring break I'm working and, and out in some asparagus farms or something, or packing shed. And then summer, I come home but my father already arranged for me to work at some farm and I remember, gosh, yeah, so, I'm, one spring break I remember I was the foreman, driving the tractor. And I've never driven a tractor but I drive it. Gosh, and the, the farmer's son, he want to go to town and he want to go to movie or something and then we come home late and then I don't get much sleep and gee the next day I'm on the tractor all day and I'm falling asleep on the tractor. [Laughs] I still remember we're disking this asparagus row and gosh, you just get in there and when you get to the end it rises. So when it, the tractor rises then I wake up and turn around, go to the next aisle.

KP: So you hit the end of the field.

JT: [Laughs] Yeah. And I don't know how I did it, but I did that. And, yeah, gosh, yeah, and then, oh gosh... one spring break I went to the same farm, was working on it, and my car broke down so I had to use the farmer's old pickup. He told me, the farmer told me, "Watch out for the brake." But gee, there was no break. And I'm goin' along the river, you know as a kid I'm going full speed and gosh, then the, there was some slow moving car in front of me and I said, I honked the horn and they don't move over and then I thought I was gonna pass that car. Then the opposing traffic came by and blocked me out. All I could do was smash into that rear end of the car. Oh, I jumped out of the car, I chew, I just chewed his... He looked at my car, that farmer's pickup and their car. I smashed this rear box that they had. And my car, the front end was smashed and water leaking all over. And, yeah, I patched up the car and drove home and we're at the garage so next day instead of going back to the farm I go to the junkyard in Stockton and pick, pick up the junk part and then... the color didn't match but the part matched so all I did was take off the wrecked, smashed part and put the... and, and then drove back.

KP: The brakes still didn't work when you drove back?

JT: No, the brakes didn't still work. But, I knew how to work it. You have to pump. I don't know, those old hydraulic brakes. You had to pump it to...

KP: So, so you were a better student in junior high school. Then you went on to high school.

JT: Yeah, Berkeley High.

KP: And, did you get in trouble there or were you a good student?

JT: Well, I was a pretty good student I think. But, I wanted to play football, and my dad wouldn't give me the release. So I went out for the swimming team since we were, I used to swimming in the Sacramento River there. Oh, I tried. And swimming, the student body is about 3,500. And about five hundred boys come out to the boys swimming team. So every week they, we have a time trial. You, first week you have to cut down your time to certain... or if you can't cut it down, you're out. And after one month of it, then there only five kids left, see. And I struggled a lot. And here I remember we have to practice swimming about a couple hours after school. And gee, I had to walk couple mile to the family that was working. I used to walk up the hill. Yeah. Then swim on the swimming team. But I made the swimming team. And, yeah, first year I was in the Circle B, they call it Circle B. They go by weight, height, and ... they only had the Circle B and the varsity. And, first two year I made my letter. You have to, in order to make your letter you have to, there's the Alameda County meet of high schools. And you have to come in at least second to get your letter. And the two years I got my letter. And the third year I tried out for varsity and the varsity I had a harder time. But somehow at the final meet in, in the Alameda County meet, somehow I cut down, I think I went down to twenty-seven seconds, that for the fifty, and, and I made it. So I got my varsity letter. I still have that varsity letter in there. Yeah, I found out that I was... anyway, I was, there's no Japanese guy gotta, get a varsity letter in Berkeley high school until I got my varsity letter in swimming. Yeah.

<Begin Segment 9>

KP: So you graduated from Berkeley High School.

JT: Yeah.

KP: And then you decided to immediately to go into, you went to college right after that?

JT: Yeah. You know, those days I didn't even know I was supposed to go to college. But, I got a letter saying I'm accepted at Cal. And so I said, oh, I thought, well, I came to school here anyway so I went to Cal. I didn't realize... I think this was my class went to Cal. And a lot of the, in high school we had a homeroom and in homeroom, gee, out of that home room I was the only one that went to Cal. I didn't even know that until I went to Cal and somehow they accepted me so I just, I didn't have to take any tests or anything and...

KP: So, you went in to study civil engineering, or engineering? Is that...

JT: Well I, first I didn't know what I was gonna study. But since my algebra teacher, my home room teacher Miss Harris always, she said I should go into engineering because I'm good at math. So, freshman year I wasn't sure. But kind of a general course thing. And then the sophomore year I start to take... I thought well, better go into study civil engineering.

KP: What did you envision yourself doing when you got out of college in that first, first couple a years at college? What did you see yourself doing?

JT: Well, you know, I was crazy about cars. And I always liked the design of the car and somehow I thought I might go into mechanical engineering and design. But, more I study it, I said no, that's not my... I didn't have the artistic talent and, yeah. Yeah, so I said, well, civil is kind of dull but, but I was in junior year when we had to go to camp.

KP: Where were you living when you were going to Cal?

JT: Oh, I was, that's right, I was in the dormitory. I was in dormitory. Yes, on Channing Way. Yeah. There was a Buddhist church there and they, I don't know how they acquired the building next door. Yeah, and they made that a Buddhist student dormitory.

KP: How many, how many other Buddhist students or Japanese students were there in Cal at that time?

JT: Oh, it was an awful lot. They said, they said there was around five hundred. But I really don't know. But there was quite a few. They came from all over California.

KP: How did that, how did that feel going back into a, pretty much into a Japanese community again? Even though it was just in the dormitory.

JT: Yes. But, you know, when, when I got into Cal I was so absorbed in the studies, I mean, gee, I had a hard time keeping up with the classes. Seemed like, I used to, I liked to go to dances and whatnot. But in college I think I only went once. It's just, I just didn't have time. And, another thing, I didn't have a lot of money. [Laughs] I was still working.

KP: What were you working doing to put yourself through college?

JT: Well, yeah. I know I, this family, he was a manager or something of the Sherwin Williams Paint Company. And he used to, every weekend I'd, he'd want me to paint the fences and know a way to paint the fences. And paint the basement. So he, he seemed to have found, find jobs for me every weekend, so I used to go down there. And, and the pay was good. In those days farmers were paying only twenty-five cents an hour, something. But I used to get close to fifty cents an hour.

KP: So you'd go to school during the week and work on the weekends?

JT: Yeah. I mean, that was my income. Yeah.

<Begin Segment 10>

KP: Okay, December 7, 1941, do you remember what you were doing?

JT: Oh, December 7... I was at, oh, that was winter break. Yeah, winter break and yeah, I was home. And, I was playing... I was in the basketball tournament with the Isleton team. I guess I missed them... I used to like sports so basketball there... and I remember on the way to the Sacramento basketball tournament we hear radio says, you know. But, we couldn't believe. I thought that was all show. We didn't think it was a war. We were, I was in the car and he says, "Oh, they're putting, putting on a pretty good show here." And, and never thought that the war really began. And then after the, after the games -- I know we lost by a few points -- gee, that war news was still going and gee, I guess that's, so there's a war going on. But somehow war seemed so far away and to me it was hard to believe it was... and especially Japan fighting. We couldn't believe it.

KP: How did your, did your life change at all after that? Did you start noticing things changing or...

JT: Yeah. Yes.

KP: In what way?

JT: Well, the Caucasian were, they were, start making remarks here and there.

KP: This was in Isleton or when you went back to --

JT: Yeah. So after the war, I went back. That's right. I went back to school and then, yeah, my dad got, start calling me. He says look like I have to come back because, yeah, I remember, yeah, okay... the FBI, FBI were, parked his car right across the street from us. And they parked there and watched my father every day. I don't... so, he felt they were gonna pick him up. Because he's there every day. So, so I left school and came home. And I remember there was a JACL group came and well, I still remember that... they said we gotta get ready to move. And I don't... I still, I guess I was a fighter. I mean, I thought maybe, I fought. I said, "No, we should stand here and fight this thing. Once, once we give up our home, that's it." And I was the only one. So, yeah. [Cries]

[Interruption]

JT: At the JACL meeting, I fought it. And... I don't know how many guy, but they came after me and... they carried me out of that hall and dumped me outside and they won't let me go back in. So, anyway. They didn't they didn't pick up my dad. But, yeah, well...

KP: It, it sounds, sounds like that's something that you never really expected.

JT: Yeah.

KP: That the JACL would take that kind of a stand.

JT: And, I know they couldn't answer my question.

KP: What was your question?

JT: That, why did we, there was no order yet and... I said we should find out why we're getting pushed out. Well, actually, I didn't realize that they were building camps and whatnot.

KP: So, your father wasn't picked up.

JT: No, he was never picked up.

KP: Do, do you have any idea why he was being watched? Did you ever figure that out?

JT: Well, see, my father he was president of the local Kumamoto Kenjinkai, that's a...

KP: The prefectural...

JT: Yeah. And he used to be. And then he used to, he was active in the, he sponsored the, a sumo team of the town. And so that's the only involvement he was. Oh, and besides, he was a bootlegger. I mean... but...

KP: He probably had a big long file on him from those days, I'm sure.

JT: Yeah. So, but he, he never got picked up. They picked up my cousin but he didn't, my father was never picked up.

KP: What was your, your cousin was Nisei?

JT: Huh?

KP: Was your cousin Nisei?

JT: No, he was a...

KP: Issei.

JT: Yeah. He was Issei. He's Japan-born. Yeah, he had his family in... yeah, but he got picked up. But my father, somehow he... yeah, I remember coming, coming home from school and watch that guy over there across the street. He's parked there and then, then that car leaves and another car come by. And, they, they seemed like twenty-four hours a day. So, we, at that time, we thought for sure they, they were gonna pick up my dad.

<Begin Segment 11>

KP: So when did you, when did you find out that you were gonna be evacuated?

JT: Yeah, let's see. I, actually I never went back to school. It was one thing or another. And then we, we couldn't just sit there and I remember a farmer came by and they needed help topping sugar, sugar, sugar beets. Gee, that was one of the hardest work I've done in a long time. You, you're on the back and every third beet you, you gotta cut it off. Yeah, by the time you get to the end of the row you gotta row over. But, that's one of the jobs we did. And, yeah, but everybody, all the young guys, we, we felt that you gotta make some kind of money. We didn't know how long we were gonna... and I think we did it for about a month or so and then they, the order came, we have to go to camp.

KP: How much time did you have before, from when the order to when you had to leave?

JT: See, seemed like it's about a week time, when the order came down that we had to go.

KP: What did your, what did your father do with his business?

JT: You know, those days, after the war, I mean, during, during that period, the older generation sort of faded away. Yeah, come to think of it, the war, I mean, the, there was no old people in the meeting no more. Yeah, that's right. It's always all young. So, the war really took the older generation out of the community. The one --

KP: So your father's business, what did he, what did he do with it?

JT: It seemed like, gosh, I look back at it now, looked like all the Issei people, they faded away from, they stayed away from the meetings. I guess they were afraid they gonna get picked up or something. It seemed like until then they were the leader. And, gee, since the war started, suddenly they're not there anymore.

KP: Became ghosts.

JT: They, they were, they were afraid they were gonna get picked up. Yeah, because they did pick up quite a few people. Some of 'em came back right away and some of 'em didn't come back for years.

<Begin Segment 12>

KP: So, do you remember getting ready to leave? Did you go to, directly to a camp or did you go to an assembly center first?

JT: Oh, we, we went to the assembly center.

KP: Which one?

JT: Walerga, Walerga is a... yeah, it's funny. Some of these people went to Walerga and next town, like Walnut Grove, they went to an assembly center in Stockton or someplace. We went to Sacramento, Walerga, Isleton route... yeah, first time I rode on a... yeah, rode on a train from Isleton. See, first time I ever rode a train. I mean, that, that train in Alton that came down there not too long ago. But that's where we got loaded up. Yeah. And then we went to Walerga. Yeah. Walerga, first thing we were supposed to do it put the straw in the mattress. We were wondering what they were gonna use that for. But it turned out that that was our mattress. [Laughs] First time I ever seen it in my life that straw mattress. But, when we went to camp, I mean, at Walerga, it was amazing. There was nothing to do. And then, some people, somebody came around and says, "Hey, anybody knows, work in the kitchen cut meat?" And, and I said, "Oh yeah." We had a restaurant so... and I used to see them sharpen their knife so I know what to do to sharpen the knife. And so they're lookin' for a guy who could cut meat for the camp and I just picked up a knife and a whatchamacallit and I start sharpening it. [Laughs] As if I'd been doing it all my life. And they, they took one look at me and says, "Okay, you're on." [Laughs] And first time in my life, I'm cutting the meat. I just asked, "How thick you want it?" They say half inch. "Okay, half an inch." And, and that's how I got a job. That was funny.

[Interruption]

JT: So I had a job. I forgot how much they paid us, and what I got.

KP: What did your, what did your father do in Walerga? Anything? Did he work at all, do you...

JT: No, they, in Walerga I don't remember. Because I hardly saw him. But in Tule, I remember, they all hang out and in, in that boiler room and my father was good at playing Japanese card. I guess the gambler's friend that he had, yeah, he used to... so my father, he's playing. But, in camp he never did anything. He was supposed to help out at the mess hall. My mother was helping but my dad never went in to help.

[Interruption]

KP: So, so how long were you in Walerga?

JT: I think we were there only about three or four months. It was a very short time. See, after, let's see, it was in the spring that we went into Walerga and then, then we went, yeah, they ship us to Tule Lake.

KP: How did you get from Walerga to Tule Lake?

JT: First we took on a bus and then got on, got on a train. And then all the way to Tule Lake was on a, on a train, as I remember, yeah.

KP: How was that train trip?

JT: All the shades were closed. And there wasn't much talking, too. Pretty quiet ride as I remember. Everybody wondering where we were gonna go. Nobody was told where we were gonna go. Yeah, at that time, yeah it was rumored that we would end up in Montana someplace. That's right. When we got to Tule Lake we were so, we thought we were in Montana or someplace. But we were still in California.

<Begin Segment 13>

KP: How many days did you...

JT: No, it was... half a day? Yeah. It wasn't that long of a ride.

KP: So, when you first saw Tule Lake, what did you think?

JT: You know, at that time we thought Tule Lake was a desert. It looked like a desert. And, we thought it was a pretty sad looking place. But we were anxious to, we didn't have any furniture and so, gee, from the scrap lumber pile that they had, the contractor had everybody start grabbing this lumber and start making the bench and tables and... I didn't realize I enjoyed carpentry work. And I know after six months I start making dresser. I made about three dressers because I had three sisters and two little brothers. So, I started making... and then the partition, the wall, I start making that.

KP: So your whole family was in one unit?

JT: Yes, one... oh, yeah we had two unit. Because we had six of us, huh? Let's see, four, eight... six, eight, yeah.

KP: Your sister was married, or...

JT: Huh?

KP: Was your sister married at that time?

JT: No, they weren't married. So we had to... yeah, so I, yeah, that's right. So between the two unit I made a doorway so that we wouldn't have to go outside. Yeah, so, gee, I don't know where we got those equipment. I mean, utensils. I mean a saw, and but somehow... yeah, we were, every day, every morning first thing we do is go look at the, that big scrap lumber pile and see what we could find out there. Yeah, so the first couple of months, maybe six months, I was so busy building the furniture for the family that even didn't think about finding a job. Then someone told me there was a notice at the employment office that they're looking for a surveyor. And I said, oh, yeah, maybe I'll try it and look at it. I think... I had a couple of semesters of surveying. So I thought... I went to apply for it and when I told 'em about the survey, what do you call that now, transit, yeah, so I told 'em, well, I could work on the transit or on the level. I was hired without even trying for anything. They said, "Okay, you're on." And they put me on. First I was on the, yeah, they wanted some level shots on the Imhoff tank, great big Imhoff tank made of concrete, steel and whatnot. It's floating. Couldn't believe that that thing could float, but it was floating. And, we had to make sure... they didn't know how it was... that big Imhoff tank, gee, almost two story high and...

RP: John, what's the function of an Imhoff tank?

JT: Oh, an Imhoff tank is a, all the sewage, it's a sewage tank actually. The sewage comes up in there and they, the Imhoff tank is where the sewage, the sediment goes down and the liquid comes, the separation of the solid and the liquid and this thing is supposed to, they have baffle on inside so, to calm this thing down so that the... and that was one of the first jobs that we were assigned to do. Because they didn't realize, this thing is two story high and about, I say about forty-feet wide. And, and the concrete... that thing is floating.

RP: So it was teetering on the ground?

JT: Yeah.

RP: It wasn't sitting down right.

JT: It was teetering, yeah.

RP: Okay.

JT: It was teetering. So we take the level shot to see which way it's teetering and how much it was teetering. So every morning and every evening we had to take a level shot to see how much it's teetering, which way they going. And after a couple weeks, that thing cracked. So, when it cracked, all the sewage... so, before it get cracked they made a, a field, level off the field to where they're gonna flow so they could catch it and dry the sludge. Anyway, that's the first time I ever heard of Imhoff. But I studied on that so I found out what it was. But, so, I was really absorbed in this survey crew that we were in because everything was new.

KP: So the tank did break?

JT: Yeah, it cracked, yeah.

KP: And, and they had to make a new one?

JT: No, they can't... you know it's made of the concrete. (...) So they drained that thing and they, they made the wall twice as thick, yeah. They made the wall twice as thick. And, and then after so many months of settling they, they let the sewer go in there again. And it, with the wall doubled it held.

<Begin Segment 14>

KP: What, so what other jobs did you do with the survey crew?

JT: Oh, we were running, see, Tule Lake was, they expanded that camp. And so we had to put the sewer lines and water lines so we had to survey the new lines and the... and then we had to put in the high school, so surveyed the school. And, and the, that warehouse, the big warehouse that... it was pretty big when I was there, but I don't know how big it is now. But it was pretty big.

KP: When did you, when did you survey in the warehouse area?

JT: It was toward, not, it wasn't done the first year. It was done about the second or third year that they start building the warehouse. Because the farmlands were producing so much that they want to ship the produce to other camps.

KP: So that's why there was also a rail line into there?

JT: Yeah, uh-huh. So I surveyed the, the building and the railroad, they had, you know the, it really technical but the, that...

KP: The radius of the turn?

JT: Yeah. And the railroad curve is different from a highway curve. We had to study and I... you know the one thing, in Tule I learned to study. I mean I, and because... I study one night and next day I'm laying that in. And so it was really a good experience for me. I didn't realize how much it really gave me confidence as far as engineering work was concerned.

KP: What about, you talked about, was it a water supply tank up on Castle Peak?

JT: Oh, yeah.

KP: When, when was that? What time period was that?

JT: Well, it was, it was the second year or something. Anyway, they, they didn't have a road up there. And during the winter they want us to survey a road in there.

KP: Let me step back. Who was your supervisor? Who was telling you to do this?

JT: Oh, well, Mr. Slattery, Slattery. I think it's Slattery. S-L-A-T-T-E-R-Y, something. Anyway, since I already... want us to survey the road and it was snowing and I wasn't gonna do it. I says that, "Hell, you can't push me." [Laughs] But, then when he, when he told us, "Yeah, well, you guys are fired." The crew that I had, they didn't want to get fired. It was, for them it was the first experience of the engineering work and they wanted to hang on to it. So they insisted on staying and for they, their sake I went out there and surveyed. And it was first time using that chronometer, I mean, to make...

KP: Chronometers measure what? What do they measure?

JT: Measure the grade. So, every, well, I was trying to make hundred feet but we measured every fifty feet. So that the, it would go in a certain grade. So we just follow the stake around the mountain on that grade so that it won't have a steep grade. Yeah, so, went around like that and went up to the hill.

<Begin Segment 15>

RP: John, you also, also worked with the Bureau of Reclamation on one, on a project?

JT: Oh, yes.

RP: What was that?

JT: That, see, the Bureau of Reclamation was reclaiming that sort of a swamp land there on Tule Lake. See, the Lost River from the, on the Oregon side goes through the mountain and comes on the California side. And, and on the California side it's just, that basin there, it was really a big basin. And Bureau of Reclamation wanted to start reclaiming that land. And they wanted to use us to... so, I said, "Oh that was, that was interesting." It was really interesting job. We, they get us a flat boat. We set one up and the small flat boat, the guys chain it and this, with, every mile they want to, each section of the land... so, what they do, we put the, you know you just stick it in the ground like that. It's all mud so it just sunk right... but you can't walk on there. It was hard, there was only about a foot of water but it's soft. It's muddy. And, so we just stake. So, we, we marked that half a mile, quarter mile, half a mile, and three quarter, and then mile. Then we flagged the mile section and then the drag line there on the barge too, was, you know what the drag lines is? They dig the... so, what they do is they drag a, they dig here and makes a bank, dig here and make the bank. And so we got the stake all in there so they follow the stake and when they finish one section then they, the drag line will carry the small barge and put 'em in front and they get on that. And they start digging again. And, but it's a slow process. But each section of land, 640 acres, and then they, so they already dug a ditch here and then they put a ditch in the middle so that they could... and then they set up a pump. After it dries up, they set up a pump and they pump the water out. And then after we, they pump the water out, then they, you had an airplane and they sow the barley seed from the air. They just dump it from the air and by, by fall the ground dried up and the barley dried up too and then the harvester comes in and harvests the barley. And then after they harvest the barley then our farmers get in and they disk the dirt and they start planting vegetables. And then winter time the hunter come and they shoot the ducks and geese down. We chase 'em. Before dogs get there we take the duck out. [Laughs]

KP: So the hunters would shoot the geese.

JT: Huh?

KP: The hunters would shoot the geese.

JT: Yeah. They would shoot 'em from the outside and they sent the dog in to get the, the bird. But before the dog gets there we get it and...

KP: What did you do with the dogs?

JT: The dogs looking for it, duck, and we just load up whatever we want and head home. [Laughs] Yeah, and I don't know how many thousand acres we reclaimed like that.

KP: Thousands of acres.

JT: Yeah, thousands.

KP: What, do you remember what years that job, that you did that? Was that throughout the whole time you were at Tule Lake?

JT: Yeah. Well, no, not quite. But, we did it for quite a while. I don't know how many lands... because they never show us the, the plan of the whatchamacallit. All they tell us is to run it down. So, we did what we... so that was the Bureau of Reclamation. I, actually we could have done more jobs for Bureau of Reclamation but the head they want us to, that's all that we were allowed to do. Yeah, but oh yeah, we, beside that, we made the hog farm. We, oh, what the, what do you call that farming? You know you farm with liquid, not with soil, just liquid.

KP: Hydroponics?

JT: Hydroponic.

KP: You made one of those?

JT: Yeah. There was a guy, guy from Cal Aggie, he said there's, there's a stream come around the Castle Rock, the back part someplace. Anyway, he said he found a stream that he... so, went to check it and so I forgot this kids' name. We, I mean, we didn't have enough lumbers, but there's planks, we used plank as a... anyway, and the screens on top and, and made the plank for one wall. And then thing is, gotta find the chemical to feed, feed the thing. So we, we went to the farming and bribed some guys to get some of the... and we had this, this guy from Cal Tech, he was a smart guy. He tested which, what we have to, how much we have to put in. And well, we had a pumpkin and tomatoes and... yeah, it was about, it was about a, gee pretty, hundred yards, about a hundred yard. We had that thing, we had the stream there and, yeah we had the hydroponic farming goin'.

KP: So you diverted this stream into the hydroponic garden?

JT: Huh?

KP: So you diverted this stream into the hydroponic garden?

JT: Yeah.

KP: Oh, okay.

JT: Yeah, right. I can't remember. It was just a short while but we, I thought it was an interesting experiment to try.

KP: So what, what other projects did you work on in Tule Lake?

JT: Well, we tried to locate the cemetery. And it, they, they want us to locate an airfield. They, they thought some of the army guys were gonna come fly in and I had to find a flat area, enough that they could grade it to, to make a, a landing zone. So, I had to, around the camp I have to find a sort of flat area to...

KP: Where, did you find one?

JT: No. Actually, we, we couldn't find enough, what you call flat area. But, we did... what do you call that surveying? Anyway, we made a map of that surrounding area. But there was not enough flat area. But, spent a lot of time there. Yeah, that's the first time I saw so many rattlesnake out there. God. Geez. So, every time... we had to, our crew have to watch out for rattlesnakes because there were so many out there. I didn't realize there were so many out there.

<Begin Segment 16>

RP: John, you spent a lot of time out of camp.

JT: Yeah.

RP: So did you, were you issued a pass to go outside?

JT: Yeah. We were given a pass but that, that pass that we had is so temporary. I mean, some of the guys, they take it away from us and then we, then we go home. We, we don't go to work.

KP: Some of the guys? What, what guys would take away?

JT: Oh, oh, my crew. Yeah, we had some talkative guys that always say the wrong things to the soldiers.

RP: I was gonna ask you if, what kind of encounters you had with the, the soldiers, coming or going?

JT: As far as our crew was concerned, we didn't have too much trouble. But they point the gun at us and, and from the patrol tower they, they tell us to halt and put your hands up and... but, I never thought they were gonna shoot us until that incident they had. Then I really got kind of scared.

KP: What incident was that? Could you describe that for us?

JT: Well, the only thing that I know, I mean, I didn't see the actual shooting. We were there right after the shooting.

KP: And you were coming back into the camp?

JT: Yeah, yeah, see, these fellows that were... at that time the railroad was across the street. They have to go out there to unload the, they were unloading lumber and they take it into the camp. And they were going back and forth. And one of those trips the security guard just stopped them and told 'em to get out of the truck. So the guy got out of the truck and then when they, as soon as he got out of the truck I heard he was just shot right there. Then when we came by, all we saw is the blood over there. No, nobody was there but we saw the blood and I said, "Holy cow. Now what are they doing?" They don't want, yeah, (...) the truck driver was, name was Okamoto. We, the reason I remember Okamoto is that his brother, younger brother, was a friend of my cousin. So, so he was telling us how he got shot. And I guess evidently they didn't pick him up right away because the, he lost so much blood when they took him to the hospital they couldn't get enough blood to him.

KP: Did you ever, did you ever hear why? There was no reason?

JT: Yeah, I heard it was no reason. It was just, he was told to come out of the truck. So he came out of the truck and they just, guy shot him. Yeah, that's the only thing. Yeah, and I didn't see it or, so, but I saw that blood down on the, the whole blood.

KP: So after that you...

JT: Yeah, we were very careful. We were, I mean, I told 'em my crew to just stay in the truck, just wait. Yeah.

<Begin Segment 17>

KP: So let's, let's go back a little bit. You're in Tule Lake when the "loyalty questionnaire" came around.

JT: Oh, yeah.

KP: How did that go down or what do you remember about that?

JT: Well, before the "loyalty question," the, they sent a, a, some soldier, Japanese American soldier into camp. They, they were recruiting for military language school. And, so they, we were, I was at that time I was ready to go. I was gettin' tired of staying in camp. And, but I went to, I'm still remembering, Lieutenant Hirano. He gave us a little test to see how much Japanese we know. And then he started calling them up. I got called so I went to interview. He thought, he felt that I know enough Japanese to go to intelligence school. So that last question he says, "Did you ask your parents for approval?" And I said, "No." And he said, "Well, I need your parents' approval." So, well, my dad was definitely against it. Yeah, he wouldn't... so, I had a big argument with him but anyway. That was, I never, so I never went back. And then...

KP: So, why was your father so opposed? Do you remember the argument?

JT: Well, he claimed that I'm the oldest and that I should at least look after my younger sister and brothers. And then he felt that the war was not gonna last long. Yeah, so, during in the segregation, we didn't even go to another camp. We, we just stayed. And then, he always felt that, yeah... and my father was a man of few words. But when he speaks, he's a really fiery guy.

[Interruption]

KP: This is tape three of a continuing interview with John Tomita and today is July 21, 2009. I forgot to put that on the beginning of the tape so someone's gonna have to dig through all the tapes to find the, the date. We were just talking about Tule Lake. And we were talking about the "loyalty questionnaire." And you said first what happened is that they came through drafting for the MIS and your father, you were interested but your father said no.

JT: Yeah.

KP: But then the "loyalty questionnaire" came around. And, do you remember that?

JT: Yeah. Yes, most of the, I mean as far as... my father, on the loyalty thing, my father never said one word. I mean, he, he didn't say anything. It was up to me to decide. So I said well, okay, I won't fight but I'll support United States. I said one of the questions was will you fight and the second question was will you take arms. And so I still remember. I said I won't take arms but I will support the United States. So I was what they called, "no-yes." Not a "no-no" or "yes-yes." I was a "no-yes." And I felt comfortable that way so that's the way I stood. A lot of the kids, some of the kids came over to talk to me. And I said, "It's up to you, but, whatever you feel." But, they were forced by their parent to sign "no-no." Yeah, they were mostly young kids. I say they're just above teenager. I mean, yeah, so I felt sorry for them. And, well, at that time it, it, that was after segregation, so it was sort of a rough time. That, a lot of 'em that came in from other camp, they called it the Wassho gumi and they get up early in the morning and holler around the block and...

KP: So you, you answered "no-yes."

JT: Yeah.

KP: No that you wouldn't fight. Why did you select no you wouldn't fight? What were you, what was your thinking at that time?

JT: Well, I felt that I didn't want to shoot anybody. I didn't want to shoot the Japanese soldiers. I didn't want to... to me, I guess I'm, I'm against war. To me, war was not the right way to do things. I mean I, there must be, before killing anybody, there must be a better way than the killing. And I always felt that I'll support the law but I won't take arms. I had a very strong feeling about that. Yeah, so, signing "no-yes" was, it didn't bother me. I mean, I felt good inside.

<Begin Segment 18>

KP: So, soon after the "loyalty questionnaire" went around there, the camp was turned into a segregation center.

JT: Yeah.

KP: And you said that your family, was your family offered to be moved out? Do you remember that or?

JT: That part I'm not sure. Half my family, my sisters and my, yeah, my sisters were out. They went out. They, I mean, my younger sister, she was working in Denver and going to school. And, and my brother was, he used to, he said he was going to school but I don't think he went to school. [Laughs] I'm not sure. My younger brother is, he was a little wild. And he, I think he worked in the various construction jobs in Montana or someplace.

KP: And you said that your, your father answered on the "loyalty questionnaire," what was his answers?

JT: No, you know on that loyalty thing, my, my dad never said a word. He was, he was very neutral.

KP: Did he answer the questionnaire, do you know?

JT: No, I don't think he answered it.

KP: He just refused.

JT: Yeah, I don't think he answered because he, somehow he didn't want to commit himself. He... and he didn't tell us anything. He didn't tell the kids. And I know, I remember he didn't say a word. But I know from my friends that they were all told by their dads not to do it. But, my, my dad didn't say a word.

RP: John, do you have a sense from your dad that he was committed to staying in the United States?

JT: Oh yeah. Yes, he, all the time he tells me, "Well, the war is gonna be over. We, we'll be going back to Isleton again. So, just sit tight." And the funny part of it, after the war ended and the, they start closing the camp, I was still able to go out. In fact, I helped a family move from Tule. They want, one family, he had a farm to go to so I helped him drive from to, in the Walnut Grove area. That's where the farm was. And I drove the truck all the way to Walnut Grove, dump it. And then, gee, that's right, I left the truck at that farm. I know I drove, drove up there and then drove this, their family things. Yeah, drove all night from Tule Lake.

RP: Did you go back to Tule Lake or this is when you were coming out of the camp?

JT: In fact I went back and forth from Tule Lake to outside. At, the first time it was I drove the nurse's car and, and then I helped this family move out their things to this ranch house. And I...

KP: Who was, who was the nurse that you helped? Who, the nurse, nurse's car that you drove? What was that?

JT: Oh, yeah, nurse. I can't remember her name. She was one of the nurse at the, at Tule Lake. And since they were gonna close...

KP: Is she a Caucasian nurse?

JT: Yeah, Caucasian nurse. She asked me if you could drive for her. I said, "Oh yeah." And then I didn't have any problems gettin' passes and so I drove her all the way to San Francisco. I got off in San Francisco. And then she went on to her home. I think it was, I'm sure it was Palo Alto, she says. So, and then from there, from San Francisco I went to Berkeley to look up my old professors. He had, he was my calculus professor at Cal. What was his name? Now I can't remember his name. He was really a kind teacher.

KP: So, so back in Tule Lake, after it became a segregation center, you were starting to talk about how things changed.

JT: Yeah.

KP: And you mentioned, well, what did you see? What was going on? You were still going in and out, still doing the surveying work. So you were kind of on the outside.

JT: Yeah.

KP: But how was the camp changing?

JT: Well, you know, there was a lot of incidents. I mean the kids, younger kids, they, the kids were playing in the warehouse section and they got caught. And they got put in the stockade and they said they really got beat up. Yeah, he says they were... and they, I didn't see the kids for a month. He said, yeah he got, he said he got hit with a bat and everything.

KP: How, how old were these kids?

JT: See, those kids, maybe around fifteen, sixteen. Yeah, uh-huh. Yeah, they weren't old enough to work or nothing. They, they were just horsing around. Yeah, this... what's his name? Now I can't remember the name. Of course they were much younger than I am. But, they got caught and see, during the segregation we couldn't go outside anymore so I started working in, in the hospital, what they call sanitation department. So, I learned how to work in the lab taking e-coli bacteria on the milk every day and inspecting the mess hall. Yeah, ran the... the water truck for putting the, getting the calcium chloride, put it in the water truck and spreading the water on the road. The calcium chloride absorbed moisture from the air and keep the road damp. So keep the dust down. And the mosquito, or during the summers, bath, so I got the sawdust from the construction section, put it in a sack and take it to the motor pool section, and dump it in the motor oil and taking that thing out in the, by the river that comes from Oregon. Put, tie it together and put it, spike it up on the bank of the river. Then the oil comes out slowly and that get rid of the mosquitoes.

KP: Where did you come up with that idea?

JT: Oh, there was a military book in the library and that's the book that I pulled out of the library, studied it. You got a lotta good ideas in there. And, yeah, summer, really hardly any mosquitoes. The people didn't know that I was doin' it. But, I get these ideas and go to the library and look at this book up and...

KP: What other good ideas did you come up with?

JT: Well, the calcium chloride, we have the water tank and the sprinklers. Oh, I get the calcium chloride. It's one, one sack. I just dump it into the tank and water the road. And, keep the dust down. It, during the day, the water dries up but in the evening, calcium chloride absorbed the moisture from the air and dampened the road again. So it's, the road is... during the day mostly is pretty dry. I mean, pretty moist so it doesn't raise any dust. And, yeah, during the summer the dust was terrible.

KP: So what, any other ideas you came up with?

JT: I can't remember what I, this, in camp the Caucasian people that's in the warehouse section, they take the, our meat and sell it on the black market see. So I fake a camera. We didn't have any camera. Yet I dropped a hint that these people were taking a picture of you. And they quit right away.

<Begin Segment 19>

KP: So, do you, do you remember the, the strike at Tule Lake?

JT: Yeah. Oh, boy.

KP: What was that about? What was...

JT: I really don't know. I really don't know. One day, I mean, we were going to, I mean, we have to go to motor pool to, we can't take our car to home. We have to go to motor pool to get our car. And the patrol stopped us. Next thing you know, they, they, I didn't know really what was... but I thought these kids that was in, that were, they were... we didn't get any clothes or stuff. I mean they, we got that black coat, peacoat or something they call it. Anyway, they were stealing peacoat out of the warehouse or something. And, anyway, the next day that the, the tanks were out there and then we were told that we can't go, go to work. Oh, I said, good deal, we'll go home. And then, gee, the next thing you know these tanks are going between the buildings and firing away, machine guns. Yeah.

KP: They were shooting in the air or...

JT: No, they were shooting... you could see the bullet path. Yeah, it was crazy. I don't know whether those tank went to every block, but I know they went to our block because we were all home and they told us to... we stayed. And after seeing that truck, tank come through... I know when we went to work they were out there with guns and everything, tanks, they line up and we don't have any whatchamacall, guns or anything. And they lined the tanks up and, and the next thing after, the tanks are going through the buildings and shooting the whatchamacall. But I didn't hear anybody getting shot or anything like that. But I know that I saw those bullets as they were hitting the ground. And that's right, I don't know when this happened. But one time the whole army went through the whole camp. Went through every apartment. They, the army says we have some guns or something and they, they were checking every... and they, they swept from one end, went through the whole camp like that. And they didn't find anything. They, I heard they picked up some radio or something like that.

KP: So, were you, they obviously went through your apartment as well.

JT: Yeah, they came to...

KP: What did they... did they order you out? How did that work?

JT: No, they, they came through and they, they went through all the suitcase and whatnot. And they didn't find anything. But I heard that some of the, the people, they, they have some money, cash. The, the cash is gone. And the, some of the people lost some jewelry and stuff. That was during the segregation. It was really a tough time there.

KP: Did you, were you aware of, well, there were the Kibei, there were the different groups that were in there?

JT: Oh, yeah.

KP: Yeah, what were, what were your personal ideas of what was going on? Were you trying to stay out of harm's way or what were you, what were you thinking about what was happening in camp?

JT: Well, I stayed away from it. I stayed away. I, our... you know, most Nisei -- the Nisei is the second generation -- where Kibeis are the one that are educated in Japan. They came back. And, in camp they were, after segregation, the Kibei, a lot of 'em, they thought they were up there. And, so I never respected them. But, I tried to stay, I don't think I ever got involved with them. I didn't like their attitude and I didn't like... yeah, well, I know they were going after all the pretty gals. [Laughs] And they got, some of the gals got married to them. And I said to myself, that's their business. I felt that.

KP: So you, your father always had the plan of going back to Isleton --

JT: Yeah.

KP: -- when he was finished.

JT: Yeah, somehow he had the confidence. Every time I talk about it, he said, "Oh, don't worry. We'll be going back."

KP: And, and I'm sure that... what was your perspective on the outcome of the war? Your father's and yours? Did you, who did you see winning the war when you were in there?

JT: Oh, I'm sure as far as he was concerned, he always thought that Japan was gonna win.

KP: Your, your father?

JT: Yeah. But toward the end, he start getting his doubt. But I know he's confident that Japan would never lose and, but I used to argue with him. How can, I mean, they don't, Japan never had the resource. Without the resource, how can they fight? So I felt that he shouldn't be... but I'd never argue with him.

RP: A couple of questions. John, you were just talking about your feelings about the Kibei in Tule Lake. Were you ever threatened or intimidated by them in any way?

JT: No. The only thing is that it was not a threat, but they were making a lot of racket. And, somehow I felt that I was threatened, but none of 'em really. Because they were boasting them self and, and they had a pretty big group going. They had a group organized. And I, somehow I didn't particularly care for it but they were there.

<Begin Segment 20>

RP: The other question is in 1944 the government allowed Japanese Americans to renounce their citizenship and many people did that at Tule Lake.

JT: Yes.

KP: Do you remember that or were you affected at all, coerced in any way to do that?

JT: Yeah, somehow I told people who came to ask me, I said, "Don't do anything. Don't do anything." And, so I didn't do anything. And my, a lot of the Nisei were influenced by the, their parents. And they pushed their... but my father never raised that question with me. And I felt that I'm not gonna. I'm an American. So, as far as that... the funny part is that I tried to serve in the, in the American forces. Before the war, before the war started, when I was going to school, my classmate were tellin' me that they, they volunteered because the army will leave them alone until they finish their school. So, I, the summer before the war started I tried to do that too because my friends said they could get a, I could get away from the service. So I... and well, when I went to the recruiting office in Sacramento, they told me out flat that they're not taking any "Japs" in the service. They told... they said, "You Japs are not..." And that was in summer before the war started. They already knew that they, they were gonna be fighting. So, I told my dad about it and my dad was a good fan of the county assessor. He was... Milo, Milo Dye, Milo... what was his... anyway, he was, in fact, later on I found out he was the head of the recruiting of, oh the people who sign up for, have to sign up for the army?

KP: Draft registration?

JT: Draft... not draft board...

KP: Selective Service?

JT: Huh?

KP: Selective Service?

JT: Selective Service. Yeah. He was the local leader. I, we didn't, I didn't... my dad said, well, he's influential so I went to Mr. Dye to say, I told him that they won't let me join the service. Friends of mine, well, the Caucasians and, and school, they get to sign up. And so he wrote me a nice letter and he knew people in the service, Major Armstrong. Yeah, Major Armstrong. And so I went to see Major Armstrong. He, I found out that he was the head of the Selective Service in northern California. And so I went to see him and they said, yeah, oh yeah. Then, so he sent me a nice letter saying that, that since I'm not of draft age that I can't say anything. He's in charge of the Selective Service but if you're not in that age bracket you can't do anything. So, I couldn't get in.

KP: You kind of fell through the cracks.

JT: Yeah, right. So, when I went into camp, Dye, Milo, I mean, Dye, Mr. Dye, he, he wrote me a letter that they're gonna reclassify the, the Japanese. That we're in camp. So, I wrote back to him. "Gee, Mr. Dye, I tried to volunteer back in August and they said they, they won't, they're not gonna accept me. And even Armstrong couldn't help me get, get into service." And, I said, "What would you do if you were in my shoes after you've been knocked down and kicked to the ground? What would you do?" And, and I didn't say what I was gonna do, but I wrote that to him. and by golly, they reclassified me and they, they gave me something, I think 4-F or something, "undesirable alien." Yeah. So, I had that classification, 4-F. 4-F.

KP: 4-C?

JT: 4-C or 4-F, I forgot.

KP: 4-Fs, F is physical. 4-C was the "undesirable alien."

JT: Oh, 4-C. Anyway, I was 4-C at, when I first registered. And then Dye sent me another letter about a year later. He said they gonna reclassify again. I said, "Well, do, I told him, do whatever you want." [Laughs] And I let it go there. And then, before I came out of the camp, he said, I got a reclassification of 1-A. But, I never got called. Yeah. I don't know whether Mr. Dye is still alive. Oh yeah, there's another person. Judge Hamilton. He was my... Judge Hamilton was a good friend of my dad. He, they used to come from the back door and get the drink see. So they were good friends.

[Interruption]

KP: Okay, let's kind of... you said you also worked, when you were there working the survey, you worked with surveying the high school when it was laid out.

JT: Huh?

KP: The high school at Tule Lake?

JT: Yeah, yeah, I...

KP: Who did you work with for that? What was...

JT: Well, I was the man in charge of, of the survey section. And, that's where I met the, Yamaichi. Yeah, the guy from San Jose or someplace, yeah, I think. I still remember his name. Because, he was very, I thought he was a real sociable guy. I mean, he was one of the carpenter at the school, building of that high school.

<Begin Segment 21>

KP: So, one of the questions I have is, in camp we've got all these different, after segregation, there's all these different factions. Then, in like even between yourself and your father you always knew America would win and your father knew Japan would win. The war is over in August, 1945. Japan has surrendered. What did you see happen in camp? What was, what was the atmosphere in camp at that point?

JT: You know, everybody was scared. I mean, they, they didn't know, they didn't have any place to go. I mean, and here I was goin' in and out. I mean, somehow I was able to move in and out either driving in a truck or driving somebody else's car, and I was able to hitchhike very easily. And so I knew... and then, yeah, that's right. A lot of the "no-no boys," they couldn't get out of the camp. They, the government wasn't releasing them. So, the, just the old people and the babies are the only one that could come out and, and out where we were, our homes are gone so I went to the, the canneries in Isleton. And I went to the canneries to, I was gonna rent one of the cabins that they have in the cannery. And the, they told me I could rent it. So, then I found out that a lot of these family that, that used to live in Isleton couldn't get back because, because their old sons, oldest sons cannot come out. Only the baby could come out and the old family could come out. So I helped them get, rent cabins and these cabins, they didn't have any whatchacall, a sink. It's a... I had to make out of lumber. That's first time I ever made sink for... [laughs]. And it's amazing it worked. And I was making sinks and washing out the cabins inside and, the roof was, it's okay but the, the inside was a mess. I used to, so I don't know, I must have cleaned about half a dozen whatchamacall so the, the family could come out. And when the load came in, I guess the, the government must have been paying them so they could ship the load out. So they would send it to this cannery and I don't have any help 'cause all the guys, older guys are in... only the young kids and the elderly are coming back and they can't do anything, so I must have helped about half a dozen family relocate into those cannery cabin.

RP: What type of cannery was this?

JT: in Isleton they, they canned asparagus and some cannery get the fruit and then they, tomatoes they canned in canneries. And so the people that came out, they, they got the job. And fortunately I was there so the superintendent hired me. Not that I was a carpenter but since I was doing these things he hired me as a carpenter. And I was fixing these cabins up and whatnot. So...

KP: So you decided... what was your decision about going back to finish your college?

JT: I thought I was gonna go right back into the college. I thought I could go right back in. But when the home was gone, then I had to find a place for my family to stay and, and I have my young, I had young brothers and young sisters coming back and I had to rent two of 'em. I mean, one wasn't enough. And so I've, gee you know, I don't remember painting it, but I know washing it down and rebuilding the sink. That's the first time I ever made a sink. And, getting some supplies from the cannery warehouse and...

KP: So you worked for, how long did you work at the cannery?

JT: Maybe half a year or so. I didn't stay there that long.

KP: Where did you go next?

JT: I figured I had to get a job somewhere. And, and I remember working in the, there's a theater in Isleton, only one theater, but I asked, what was his name? Paul Stephanie or something. Anyway, I said, "How about giving me, giving me a job?" And I was cleaning the theater and the, my eighth grade grammar school teacher was, he was a principal then. So I went to him and I say what can I, can she give me a job? So, I had a janitor job there at the school. I had to clean the classroom and do, pickup the yard and whatnot. And then, after that I'd go to the theater and clean the theater and doin' that. So somehow I was able to find jobs like that.

<Begin Segment 22>

KP: And when did you start your civil service? When did you start that?

JT: Oh...

KP: And how did you start that?

JT: Yeah, when I was a kid, Oakland, Berkeley, Sacramento... I didn't have a chance in the private industry. Somehow they're not nice and all that. I put in my application but I never hear from 'em. Even in the social, civil service. And I finally, the first notice I got is from U.S. Geology, Geological Survey. And I passed their engineering aid exam so they said, can you, can I... and one of the first questions asked, "Do you know German?" [Laughs] Fortunately I took three years of German in high school. So I said, "Well, I could read a little." He says well... they, they were bringing in all this aerial survey equipment from, the, the American soldiers captured these aerial survey work, cameras and, and they want somebody to read German so they could put the, put it together. And so what little German that I remembered, I guess it was enough for them to... for what I could interpret they, we, we put these cameras together and I've never done aerial survey work. But what little German that I knew I helped them put these cameras together and before I knew I'm running the, Multiplex, they call it the Multiplex. The cameras, put it together, put the pictures in, and tying down. Because I knew a little German they want me to stick in there. And I worked for them a couple a years.

KP: And then how did you become a civil engineer? Did you...

JT: Oh, well, this is, the aerial survey work in civil engineering job.

KP: Okay.

JT: And then that home that we had in Isleton was gone. So, my, through correspondence with my sisters and whatnot they, they said, "Let's go to L.A." and then, because there was more opportunity down there. So I took a state engineering exam. But the, because I didn't have the degree, they wouldn't let me take the higher examination. I have to take an engineering aid exam. So, somehow I know all the library it seems like. I know there's a state library, and studied what I can and then I took the state exam. And then I passed. And I came down here and I took the L.A. County exam and the city exam and I seemed to pass it. So, but I went to interview and I thought the state was the most, there's less politic I thought was going on in, at the state so I applied for the state. That's how I came down here and start working for the... I went into private industry... well, I tried. Fairchild, who (had an opening for a Multiplex operator position but would not hire me even though I had two years experience at U.S. Geological Survey).

KP: But you, you said that you had to argue with the state to get 'em to hire you, didn't you? What was that...

JT: Well, they didn't (pass me on the oral exam even though I had passed the written exam #3 in the state).

KP: The oral exams or the? What was that story?

JT: Oh, (...) as you get higher you, not only (take) the written, you have to take the oral exam. And I got turned down on the oral exam twice. (It was obvious they did not want a Japanese American in a supervising position).

KP: And why was that?

JT: Because they, the board tells me that I wasn't qualified. But the funny part of it is that I'm already doin' it. In construction and design, where I'm working, somehow, like I say, I don't know why, but even though I have a lower classification, they always put me up to... I'm supervising the design plan. I'm not supposed to being doing supervision, but I am, okay. And then when I went out to construction, I'm a assistant resident engineer. I'm, I'm not supposed to be doing that but I'm doin' it. And, and see, so when I go to the oral board I tell them that I'm doing this job of that level work, and so I felt that I was qualified for the job. But they always flunk me. [Laughs] So, when you, when you want to fight the California, there's a commissioner board. It's just like a courthouse. And those commissioners somehow they're professors from Cal Tech, SC, and Cal, and they flunk me. I mean, I flunked the oral board but and then so I'll go up against commissioner. And they flunk me. And I did it twice. And somehow since I did that, they, I got known in, in Los Angeles that I'm a fighter, I guess.

And, oh yes, and then I went to, I told you my English wasn't that good so I don't know where I learned it but I took Dale Carnegie course. I don't know whether you're familiar with Dale Carnegie, "How to Win Friends and Influence People." Well, I took that course and I took the... and since the personnel board here in Los Angeles found out that I was going to Dale Carnegie so they, they want me to speak at the, their board meeting whatnot. So, I did. I thought I wasn't doing anything great. But then they want me to so I did. But before I knew, since I was goin' to Dale Carnegie and I flunked my examination, the head of the, this district here, when I took the examination, he called me up. He want to have coffee with me. I said, oh boy, I'm having coffee with this district engineer. So I said, oh, I'd better be nice and so I went there and had coffee. All he want is to know what date and what time I'm going to the oral board. So, I said, oh, I'm gonna pass this time. But by golly, following year, I took the same exam. I got ninety, gee, I got ninety-four or something. And that was the third highest grade in the whole state. Yeah. And they, they flunked me. And then the second year I go to the oral board and then the district engineer knew when it, he asked me when it was I was going and what time. So... I passed, I finally passed the oral. [Laughs] Yeah, I jumped from sixty-five to eighty-five. Anyway, I finally...

KP: Well, it sounds like being a fighter finally paid off for you.

JT: Yeah. You know, that's the funny part of it. That, somehow I'm always fighting. But I know my wife was workin' for the city. And she had to go through to the... they, just because her supervisor was fired because it was a Communist movement those days and he got entangled in that. And so he got fired so they tried to fire my wife, too. And she went through the same... she had to, they, because she won't quit they shipped her to job down in San Pedro and I still remember she, she was pregnant already at that time. And so I had to drive her down there, halfway down to San Pedro so she could... then I go to work. I was working construction job. But all the job that I go, in the highway, I go to, somehow I get the position where I have to supervise. Then during the year that when all the Japanese was coming back here, lot of the real estate broker -- I shouldn't say lot -- but some of the real estate broker were cheating. The Japanese American brokers, I felt that one of the deal (...) my family was working on, they were collecting commission from the buyer and the seller. And, they weren't supposed to do that. They're supposed to collect commission from just the seller. But, so I just happened to notice it. It was weird. So I asked the broker, "How come we have to pay commission here?" And he said, "Oh, that was a mistake." So I said, "Uh-oh." Boy, since then, I went to real estate school and got my license. I was workin' for this guy Joel Burgess. And then I learned, he's, he was a lawyer and he told me a lot of things to watch out and... but that real estate school has taught me real estate law. That real estate law... when I was in the right-of-way engineering section where we prepare the right-of-way maps and documentation... since my real estate law and my engineering knowledge, I knew more than anybody else in the department. So before I know, I'm conducting class for right-of-way engineering class. They call me up to Sacramento and they, they want me to conduct class for right-of-way engineering for the whole state. It's, somehow I fall into this job without knowing and so...

KP: Sounds like it's been going for you that way since you started back, back in Tule Lake when you got put into all those positions. Yeah.

JT: Yes. Uh-huh, that's been my life. But, fortunately, somehow I'm, instead of really going down, wherever I go, I'm, they raise me to do things. They even call me to review the engineering examination and they want me to put, write up the question for the engineers because nobody knew about right-of-way enough, real estate law that, that I knew. Somehow I get involved. And, before I retired, I had forty engineers and draftsmen working under me and, and I'm supervising. And then I have to go to Sacramento to speak to the other engineers and I'm asked to sit on the board of the city engineering examination.

KP: Okay, well, thank you, John, very much. We need to, we need to get out of here and get to our next interview. This has been a fantastic interview. And on behalf of myself and Richard and the National Park Service I want to thank you for sharing your stories and it's been a, it sounds like it's been a very adventurous life.

RP: I have still one last question. Just going back to Tule Lake, John.

JT: Yeah.

RP: You mentioned that there was a German POW camp located nearby Tule Lake.

JT: Yes.

RP: And, what were your thoughts about that camp and, and the POWs?

JT: I felt strange. Here we Americans are inside the fence and the Germans, they fight in Europe but they're on the outside of the fence patrolling the... so I thought, boy, this is a funny place. That, that's all.

KP: What were they doing on the outside of the fence?

RP: They were patrolling?

JT: Oh, they, they were fixing the roads and stuff on the outside of Tule Lake. Yeah, some general or somebody, he's sitting in the back of this jeep and has a cane and hanging onto the cane and a couple of German soldiers just riding in it. And they're fixing the road. And we're, we're...

KP: So here's the real enemy, enemies out there and you're...

JT: Yeah, yeah we're... yeah, we used to see them. [Laughs]

RP: That's strange.

JT: Yeah, it's just strange.

KP: Okay?

RP: Thank you, John.