<Begin Segment 22>

KP: And when did you start your civil service? When did you start that?

JT: Oh...

KP: And how did you start that?

JT: Yeah, when I was a kid, Oakland, Berkeley, Sacramento... I didn't have a chance in the private industry. Somehow they're not nice and all that. I put in my application but I never hear from 'em. Even in the social, civil service. And I finally, the first notice I got is from U.S. Geology, Geological Survey. And I passed their engineering aid exam so they said, can you, can I... and one of the first questions asked, "Do you know German?" [Laughs] Fortunately I took three years of German in high school. So I said, "Well, I could read a little." He says well... they, they were bringing in all this aerial survey equipment from, the, the American soldiers captured these aerial survey work, cameras and, and they want somebody to read German so they could put the, put it together. And so what little German that I remembered, I guess it was enough for them to... for what I could interpret they, we, we put these cameras together and I've never done aerial survey work. But what little German that I knew I helped them put these cameras together and before I knew I'm running the, Multiplex, they call it the Multiplex. The cameras, put it together, put the pictures in, and tying down. Because I knew a little German they want me to stick in there. And I worked for them a couple a years.

KP: And then how did you become a civil engineer? Did you...

JT: Oh, well, this is, the aerial survey work in civil engineering job.

KP: Okay.

JT: And then that home that we had in Isleton was gone. So, my, through correspondence with my sisters and whatnot they, they said, "Let's go to L.A." and then, because there was more opportunity down there. So I took a state engineering exam. But the, because I didn't have the degree, they wouldn't let me take the higher examination. I have to take an engineering aid exam. So, somehow I know all the library it seems like. I know there's a state library, and studied what I can and then I took the state exam. And then I passed. And I came down here and I took the L.A. County exam and the city exam and I seemed to pass it. So, but I went to interview and I thought the state was the most, there's less politic I thought was going on in, at the state so I applied for the state. That's how I came down here and start working for the... I went into private industry... well, I tried. Fairchild, who (had an opening for a Multiplex operator position but would not hire me even though I had two years experience at U.S. Geological Survey).

KP: But you, you said that you had to argue with the state to get 'em to hire you, didn't you? What was that...

JT: Well, they didn't (pass me on the oral exam even though I had passed the written exam #3 in the state).

KP: The oral exams or the? What was that story?

JT: Oh, (...) as you get higher you, not only (take) the written, you have to take the oral exam. And I got turned down on the oral exam twice. (It was obvious they did not want a Japanese American in a supervising position).

KP: And why was that?

JT: Because they, the board tells me that I wasn't qualified. But the funny part of it is that I'm already doin' it. In construction and design, where I'm working, somehow, like I say, I don't know why, but even though I have a lower classification, they always put me up to... I'm supervising the design plan. I'm not supposed to being doing supervision, but I am, okay. And then when I went out to construction, I'm a assistant resident engineer. I'm, I'm not supposed to be doing that but I'm doin' it. And, and see, so when I go to the oral board I tell them that I'm doing this job of that level work, and so I felt that I was qualified for the job. But they always flunk me. [Laughs] So, when you, when you want to fight the California, there's a commissioner board. It's just like a courthouse. And those commissioners somehow they're professors from Cal Tech, SC, and Cal, and they flunk me. I mean, I flunked the oral board but and then so I'll go up against commissioner. And they flunk me. And I did it twice. And somehow since I did that, they, I got known in, in Los Angeles that I'm a fighter, I guess.

And, oh yes, and then I went to, I told you my English wasn't that good so I don't know where I learned it but I took Dale Carnegie course. I don't know whether you're familiar with Dale Carnegie, "How to Win Friends and Influence People." Well, I took that course and I took the... and since the personnel board here in Los Angeles found out that I was going to Dale Carnegie so they, they want me to speak at the, their board meeting whatnot. So, I did. I thought I wasn't doing anything great. But then they want me to so I did. But before I knew, since I was goin' to Dale Carnegie and I flunked my examination, the head of the, this district here, when I took the examination, he called me up. He want to have coffee with me. I said, oh boy, I'm having coffee with this district engineer. So I said, oh, I'd better be nice and so I went there and had coffee. All he want is to know what date and what time I'm going to the oral board. So, I said, oh, I'm gonna pass this time. But by golly, following year, I took the same exam. I got ninety, gee, I got ninety-four or something. And that was the third highest grade in the whole state. Yeah. And they, they flunked me. And then the second year I go to the oral board and then the district engineer knew when it, he asked me when it was I was going and what time. So... I passed, I finally passed the oral. [Laughs] Yeah, I jumped from sixty-five to eighty-five. Anyway, I finally...

KP: Well, it sounds like being a fighter finally paid off for you.

JT: Yeah. You know, that's the funny part of it. That, somehow I'm always fighting. But I know my wife was workin' for the city. And she had to go through to the... they, just because her supervisor was fired because it was a Communist movement those days and he got entangled in that. And so he got fired so they tried to fire my wife, too. And she went through the same... she had to, they, because she won't quit they shipped her to job down in San Pedro and I still remember she, she was pregnant already at that time. And so I had to drive her down there, halfway down to San Pedro so she could... then I go to work. I was working construction job. But all the job that I go, in the highway, I go to, somehow I get the position where I have to supervise. Then during the year that when all the Japanese was coming back here, lot of the real estate broker -- I shouldn't say lot -- but some of the real estate broker were cheating. The Japanese American brokers, I felt that one of the deal (...) my family was working on, they were collecting commission from the buyer and the seller. And, they weren't supposed to do that. They're supposed to collect commission from just the seller. But, so I just happened to notice it. It was weird. So I asked the broker, "How come we have to pay commission here?" And he said, "Oh, that was a mistake." So I said, "Uh-oh." Boy, since then, I went to real estate school and got my license. I was workin' for this guy Joel Burgess. And then I learned, he's, he was a lawyer and he told me a lot of things to watch out and... but that real estate school has taught me real estate law. That real estate law... when I was in the right-of-way engineering section where we prepare the right-of-way maps and documentation... since my real estate law and my engineering knowledge, I knew more than anybody else in the department. So before I know, I'm conducting class for right-of-way engineering class. They call me up to Sacramento and they, they want me to conduct class for right-of-way engineering for the whole state. It's, somehow I fall into this job without knowing and so...

KP: Sounds like it's been going for you that way since you started back, back in Tule Lake when you got put into all those positions. Yeah.

JT: Yes. Uh-huh, that's been my life. But, fortunately, somehow I'm, instead of really going down, wherever I go, I'm, they raise me to do things. They even call me to review the engineering examination and they want me to put, write up the question for the engineers because nobody knew about right-of-way enough, real estate law that, that I knew. Somehow I get involved. And, before I retired, I had forty engineers and draftsmen working under me and, and I'm supervising. And then I have to go to Sacramento to speak to the other engineers and I'm asked to sit on the board of the city engineering examination.

KP: Okay, well, thank you, John, very much. We need to, we need to get out of here and get to our next interview. This has been a fantastic interview. And on behalf of myself and Richard and the National Park Service I want to thank you for sharing your stories and it's been a, it sounds like it's been a very adventurous life.

RP: I have still one last question. Just going back to Tule Lake, John.

JT: Yeah.

RP: You mentioned that there was a German POW camp located nearby Tule Lake.

JT: Yes.

RP: And, what were your thoughts about that camp and, and the POWs?

JT: I felt strange. Here we Americans are inside the fence and the Germans, they fight in Europe but they're on the outside of the fence patrolling the... so I thought, boy, this is a funny place. That, that's all.

KP: What were they doing on the outside of the fence?

RP: They were patrolling?

JT: Oh, they, they were fixing the roads and stuff on the outside of Tule Lake. Yeah, some general or somebody, he's sitting in the back of this jeep and has a cane and hanging onto the cane and a couple of German soldiers just riding in it. And they're fixing the road. And we're, we're...

KP: So here's the real enemy, enemies out there and you're...

JT: Yeah, yeah we're... yeah, we used to see them. [Laughs]

RP: That's strange.

JT: Yeah, it's just strange.

KP: Okay?

RP: Thank you, John.

<End Segment 22> - Copyright © 2009 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.