Densho Digital Archive - John Wakamatsu Interview

<Begin Segment 1>

RP: This is an oral history with John Wakamatsu for the Manzanar National Historic Site. We're at his aunt's residence, same residence as the last two interviews. This is June 9, 2009, same interviewer, Richard Potashin, and same videographer, Kirk Peterson. And John's going to be sharing some of his stories of his father's experiences in the 442nd as well as occasional visits to Manzanar War Relocation Center. John, can I go ahead and, and document this?

JW: Yes. Thank you. No problem.

RP: Okay, thank you. Why don't you, can you give us a little maybe background on your father, coming from your perspective as a son? Maybe, maybe a little bit about his early life and leading up to his being drafted into the military.

JW: Yes, my father --

RP: What kind of guy was he?

JW: -- yeah, my father was a very outspoken person and he relayed information to myself and my other brothers, two brothers and a sister, about growing up in Los Angeles and about wartime experiences and experiences after World War II, and in such great detail. And I believe that we have some of his genes because we have pretty good memories and I believe that it's done for a reason. I'm currently the president of the 100th/442nd Veterans Association of Los Angeles, and I help out the veterans of World War II. And half of those veterans were in, from the mainland United States and many of them were from internment camps.

My father was born on May 28, 1918. And he was actually born in a small little hotel which is right across from Ninth Street Market and it still stands. It's on San Pedro Street and he said they, I guess they used midwives in those days. So he actually showed us the actual location where he was born. And then the little house was on Tenth Street where they lived and it was torn down a number of years ago and they made a parking lot. So my father actually showed us where he was actually born. And maybe at, maybe the other, my other aunties were born there 'cause they were, used a midwife. And I thought that's kind of interesting when I can actually drive by there today and show people where the hotel... it's still standing. And so...

RP: Your father went to Japan at a young age of, I think, four years old.

JW: Right. Yeah. He went to Japan and according to my auntie, since he was only four years old, he was the only one that went with my grandmother. And my father remembered that and he told us that he went on this, a ship, and the captain of the ship was very nice to my father. They went on first class and my auntie told me it was like Canada-maru. That was the name of the boat. It took about thirty days to go to Japan. And the captain liked him because he had a small son and it kind of reminded him of his son. So my father said it was kind of nice. My auntie said they used to fish off the back of the boat. When they got to Japan, my father met his grandmother and he did bad things like, you know, they had these little statues for gods and he would roll the little heads off the, off the hillside and he was kind of a bad kid. And they knew that he wasn't from Japan but it's hard to understand because he's a little four-year-old kid running around and doing bad things. He actually went up and saw Japanese military officers on the train and he wanted to know what their sword looked like and no, no Japanese kid would ever do that because they're scared of the military. But my grandfather, my father went up and asked the senior officer and he showed him the sword. And the other officer didn't like that but the way the Japanese military is set up, if the senior whatever he does, you can't question that. So my dad was on the train and it was funny that he actually asked the officer to show him his sword. So my father was a real interesting person.

My auntie said that they spent one year in Japan and they went all over Japan. My grandmother, my great-grandmother loved hot springs and I thought it was kind of interesting, but my father relayed information that he was so small that I found that it's amazing. But when you're a little kid and you spend one year in a foreign country, even though he was a dual citizen, it's kind of an experience. My auntie said that they were kind of jealous because they had to go to school. So, none of them went. My grandfather stayed here and so that was kind of interesting. And when my grandmother came back from Japan after being there for one year, my auntie told me that she got scared and she ran under the bed. My father was able to see his grandmother. But I believe the grandfather had already passed away.

And the interesting thing about my, my father's experience in Japan was that he got to see other family members and he saw, he told me that my, my grandfather's older brother was a, drank a lot of sake and so apparently the two older Wakamatsu brothers -- 'cause my grandfather was kind of in the middle of a large family -- they owned land and they owned timber and they drank and they didn't do, they should have cut the weeds down. They had a fire in the area and they burned down 10,000 trees. So, that's, that kind of thing happened so my grandfather wasn't very happy with his older brothers because they just didn't take care of the land. And he came, when he came to America, I'm sure they, he must have helped the family out in Japan.

<Begin Segment 2>

JW: One thing that I don't think that my aunties ever said anything about, my mother's, my father's father, Matsunosuke Wakamatsu, was a sergeant in the Japanese army during the Russian-Japan War and he was in the Quartermaster Corps. My mother's father, who also was at Manzanar, was a, a first-second lieutenant in the Japanese Third Army and he fought up in, in famous battles like Port Arthur and, and he was part of the General Nogi's officer's staff, so.

RP: Can you give us his name?

JW: Yeah, his name is Shutaro Matsumura. And he was actually a camp guard at Manzanar. And we have a photograph of it. I believe the, you have that in the archives. My brother Peter Wakamatsu gave that to you. And he was actually an Imperial Japanese Army officer and he was a camp guard at Manzanar. So, neither grandfather spoke, were part of the Japanese Veterans Association so when it came time, they, the FBI, or nobody knew that they were military people so they didn't, they just went to regular camp with their families. And my grandfather, my mother's father received a medal, Kunsho, I'm not sure what level bravery, for fighting in Russian-Japan War. And I still have his service revolvers. So you, you can imagine that he'd been the first person to be sent to Crystal City or Texas, but he, he told my father when he was in Rancho Los Amigos, he had gotten tuberculosis, that he said that he had lived in America for so many years that you support the country you live in. And so it, so he felt that even though he was a Japanese army officer in a prior war -- he lived for many years, he came here in 1918 -- he said you support the country you live in. And he felt very strongly about that.

One thing I do have to mention is he is one of the few people, 'cause he came from a famous samurai family, they were actually generals in the warlord's army, they were from Kagahan which is Ishikawa-ken, and they're from Kanazawa city and his, his father was the police chief of the city of Kanazawa and my grandfather was also an Imperial University graduate after the Russian-Japan War. My grandfather lived in Tokyo and he lived with Kowashaku Mayeda who was the, the descendent of a warlord from the Kagahan... and it was a very large daimyo. And all I can say is that it's, so he had very strong military background. But he felt that wherever you live is what you support. Even though he was denied citizenship. I don't know if he ever became a citizen. But he felt that wherever you live is where you stayed. So, the grounds for Japanese people to be considered "enemy aliens" is, it couldn't be farther from the truth as far as my grandfather was concerned.

The other thing I wanted to mention to you that you probably don't know is that both of my grandfathers came to United States because, one of the reasons why they came here was because Japan was a very militaristic society and they had very little tolerance for people that had any questions against the government. My mother's father wrote articles against the Japanese government because he saw from the Russian-Japan War that many men were from low-status families and they did very well but they could never become officers. They could never do things in Japan because they weren't from famous families. And so he didn't like that. He wrote articles against the government and being a military person, his father being in the police chief, he basically was, basically, he went, came to America but he was basically thrown out of Japan. Because he wrote articles in the newspaper and that's not a good thing. So my mother, my father's father, Matsunosuke Wakamatsu, also didn't like the militaristic attitude and, and he and grandmother, they didn't like that. So our families are a little different than the other Issei. They didn't come here for, totally for economic reasons.

RP: Wasn't there a, one of your grandfather's brothers was a general?

JW: Yeah, my grandfather's cousin, my grandfather's cousin was Lieutenant General Wakamatsu, he was the head of Japanese Army in Southeast Asia. And so he was ordered to take Singapore and he a large fight, apparently, with Togo and he actually resigned from the army and General Yamashita took his place. So that is something we thought was rather interesting.

RP: Do you know anything about his basis of his refusal to do that?

JW: You know, I'm not a hundred percent sure of why he declined to do that. 'Cause it's very interesting that I'm not sure why he had a problem with that. And, of course, General Yamashita took Singapore and he was also, fought in the Philippines. But, it's, it'd be kind of interesting to find out what happened.

RP: Was he ostracized for his position in any way?

JW: Well, I'm sure that when you, when you refuse orders in the Japanese military you, you --

RP: Heads roll?

JW: I don't think he was killed, but you definitely are going to have problems because they, they have absolute obedience. My grandmother's uncle, who was a Matsuzaki, was commander of, he was major and he was a banker before the war, he was commander of a unit that attacking Nanking, China. And he was killed when they had the... they went into the city, they blew the bridge up and he was killed in the invasion of Nanking, China. And then my father's second cousin was a leading Japanese naval carrier pilot and he shot down thirty-seven U.S. aircraft. He probably attacked Pearl Harbor but at the end of the war he was, he was attacking squadrons of B-29s. He survived the war and he, and he moved to Brazil. And then my mother's cousin was an officer in the Japanese army, he guarded the Imperial Palace in Tokyo. And so I would say ninety-five percent of our family fought in the Japanese military. And you support the country that you're born and raised in and even, I found many, many Japanese American families who, brothers fought against brothers because the older brother stayed in America, the younger brother went back to Japan and like the Oka family that lived across from our family for more than fifty years, Isao Oka said that there were five of them in the military intelligence. The two younger brothers were in the Japanese kamikaze corps, they went back with their parents. And when they were in Saipan the two younger brothers were trying to blow up their ships because they were kamikaze pilots. And they didn't realize that until after the war ended that their younger brothers were trying to blow the ships up. But they didn't know. So, you can see that many families were split and, but what can you say? When you're an airplane attacking U.S. naval ships, you're not trying to ask "Who are you?"

RP: Yeah, who's on your ship?

JW: So I think American people have to realize that Japanese families of course were very very horrified because of the idea of fighting against your relatives is a terrible thought. My father thought initially that he would like to go in the army air force and, and fly aircraft but the Japanese Americans were not allowed to do that. And they were not allowed to join the navy and they were not gonna be used as combat forces against empire of Japan. My father knew that they, they weren't gonna allow that. So, Japanese Americans trying to get in the U.S. Navy, that's not gonna happen. They usually ended up in the U.S. Army. And so it was very clear cut that Japanese Americans were asked to, to be interpreters in the war before the, especially just after the war started.

<Begin Segment 3>

RP: What were your father's early experiences, say before the, joining the military? Or his earliest experiences and sort of exposure to the discrimination and prejudice that targeted Japanese Americans? How did he, how did he react, experience that and how did he react to it?

JW: Well, my father said that he went to, first of all he was born in Los Angeles and he went to, I think, Ninth Street School and then they moved to the Adams area and he went to, I believe he went to junior high school out there. I'm not sure which school. They moved to Venice area in 1929 and he went to Venice High School. So, I'm not sure if, at the time, if Venice High School was a middle school and a high school. Yeah, I'm not sure. But I think that might be possible. But anyway, my father told me that there was discrimination. I mean, people at the high school, he played football and it was obvious that being two, one of two Asian Americans or Japanese Americans on the Venice varsity football team, they used to call them names. They thought he was Chinese. they'd call him "Chink" and things like that. So he had, he said people didn't like Asian Americans period. And so he, he was a fullback and he fought very hard against the other people. And he said he had to, he said there was a discrimination. He knew that. In fact, before, after he got out of Venice he went to Santa Monica College. He played football there. And then he went to work for his father doing farming and he told me that he realized that you try to work for McDonnell Douglas before the war and, as a draftsman, and he was told there was no way that he'd be hired there. There was no way. McDonnell Douglas, Sr. could hardly even hire him, because there was discrimination against any Asian Americans. My father knew people that went to Cal Tech and they couldn't even get a job as, in their fields. So when he got drafted in January 29, 1941, he realized if you're gonna be in the army you might as well get the best pay. At the time the army people, the Japanese Americans were not segregated. They were put into completely non-segregated units. Although, I didn't see any blacks in the 53rd Infantry. The 53rd Infantry was two Asian -- he was in F Company, and in the 53rd Infantry, there were two Asian people in there. My father was drafted on the same day as a fellow named Colonel Kim. Colonel Kim is a well-known --

RP: Is he an MIS guy?

JW: No, no. He was a very --

KP: A lieutenant? He was a lieutenant or captain?

JW: No, he was a captain in World War --

KP: In 442nd?

JW: Captain in World War II of, in the 100th Battalion and then he was promoted to colonel later but he was the only person that was in charge of a American fighting unit in the Korean War. So, Colonel Kim received every medal except for the Congressional Medal of Honor so he was a very famous soldier. But he was drafted on the same day my father was. Another fellow was drafted the same day and reported at Fort MacArthur, that's Frank Morimoto who came to F Company later. And Mas, Masao Chomori whose family was at Manzanar as well. I believe they were in Block 7. And so my father and Mas Chomori followed each other all throughout the war from, from Fort MacArthur to Fort Ord. When the war started, well, my father became a sergeant before the war actually started. He became a, he had three stripes in about six months. And he worked very hard to become a sergeant because at least the people in the 53rd Infantry, his captain, was a fair man and he allowed my father to become promoted over the other people since there's only two Asians in the company, you'd think that he'd, first one to get promoted to sergeant, that's very, very unusual. So, at least he was allowed to, to obtain that rank. Because he said, "You're gonna get much better pay, you'll have much better duties." And so my father was actually a sergeant before the war started. And he was assigned to guard heavy railway lines and whatnot in between the California and Nevada border and he actually was in places like Reno and things like that. And so he told me before the war started, he was allowed to actually guard heavy railway lines. So, if they thought he was a threat, why would they put him in charge of that kind of security? But after the war started, of course, everybody was taken out and put in different units. My dad said they went to Camp Crowder, Missouri, and they, many of them stayed there.

KP: Did he lose his rank when he did that?

JW: No.

KP: He maintained the sergeant?

JW: Right. My father, 'cause he was a sergeant in the regular army and had, did not have a wartime promotion, he was, he had three stripes. And went to Camp Crowder, Missouri, he then became a staff sergeant and then in time he became a first sergeant when he went to, from Camp Crowder, Missouri, to Camp Shelby, Mississippi. And that was in I think March 3, 1943. So my father was forty-two, forty-two soldiers from Crowder went to Camp Shelby. My father was in charge of those forty-two men. I have a record of that letter.

<Begin Segment 4>

KP: Just kind of refresh my memory, I know that all the Japanese were put into a single camp that had been previously enlisted? Or was that, or did they go to a couple different camps right after the outbreak of war, when they were taken, when they were segregated?

JW: Well, you know, I've talked to people... I know that, for instance, the 100th Battalion was, after the war started, they actually wanted volunteers and they had many, many volunteers, and I think of the 10,000 they took 1,500 people. And they sent them from Hawaii over to the United States separately. And then the men who were already in the military like my father, they put many of them in Camp Crowder, Missouri, but I think, from what I've been told, there were other camps that men were in. Camp Blanding in Florida, because Yuki Iguchi was acombat medic assigned F Company. He was drafted before the war. And he was actually in Camp Blanding, Florida. So, I think that there were many Japanese Americans that were in other camps, military camps.

KP: Well, I remember there was one story that I've actually heard a couple different directions about some visiting dignitary to one of the camps where there was segregated troops and the troops were actually held in a hangar at gunpoint because they were afraid they might do something against the vice president or whoever was visiting.

RP: It was Roosevelt who, he came to speak at one of the...

KP: I don't know if it was Roosevelt or the vice president, I'm not really sure.

JW: Yeah, I heard, I actually heard that story that they were actually, they were actually held at gunpoint and they were not allowed to see the dignitaries because they thought they were a threat. My father was saying that, for instance, when he came back to the United, Los Angeles, because he actually was involved in taking his parents and putting over, putting them into the assembly center which, to ship them to Manzanar. He told me that, I guess he got a leave and they came to Los Angeles and he said that he took, went down to the area where they were being assembled and I believe they were sent by bus, I believe, to Manzanar from Los Angeles. Like Auntie, Auntie Uta said they went the Venice police station or city hall and they sent them. But my dad told me that after he had did that he saw this lieutenant and the lieutenant looked at my dad wearing a uniform putting his parents in the assembly center, and that guy didn't feel very good about it and so they were just following orders. My dad said he came home and he's sitting inside the old farmhouse, he said, "That's really a low period in your time when your, when your family's being sent to internment camp or to some destination unknown and now you're going to be, you're sitting there and you're just trying to figure out what to do."

My dad said that, and I know that Auntie Uta said that, "Well, we took the sewing machine," but they had a pickup truck because they were in the farming business. And my dad said they took a refrigerator and maybe he took something else, but he told me he put it in the back of the pickup truck, took it to Manzanar, and when he went into Manzanar he asked the administrator, "Is it okay to go through the gate?" and the guy, and the fellow said, "We're only taking care of the civilians but the army is taking care of the camp." So the administrator said, "There's no problem, you can do what you want to do." So my father went inside the camp and he dropped off the refrigerator, he went into Lone Pine, bought milk and things like that. But he said it was kind of interesting because the administrator asked him, "Well, do you want to stay with the soldiers or do you want to stay with your family members?" Well, of course you have to stay with your family. But walking around Manzanar with a U.S. army uniform on is a rather strange experience. 'Cause he could leave but his parents couldn't leave. So his parents are considered a risk and yet he's in the military. So, it doesn't make any sense to my dad. But he told me that he trained some of the soldiers that were guarding Manzanar at Fort Ord. So he told them that if they could be nice to his parents and his family. So, you can imagine how they felt. My dad says that as he left Manzanar he turned around and looked at the gate and he said, "This is not good." And then he drove back to Los Angeles and he said it was a pretty lousy experience. He went to Little Tokyo also, and he looked around and all the Japanese people had already been evacuated. He felt really terrible because there's nobody there. And he's walking around in that Little Tokyo with his army uniform on my dad felt very depressed. And he said, "Oh, this is not good."

Then I guess he went back and he came back to Manzanar twice. 'Cause the second time he came, they were trying to take all their heavy farm equipment, they had already paid storage, and so he got, apparently he got some kind of heavy trucks because it was, he had a Caterpillar tractor and some heavy farm gear. And they're trying to sell it off, and I guess since they had serial numbers and other things my father shipped all of that to Blackfoot, Idaho. But he was, that's why he came back a second time. And so, he wasn't very happy about that either. And he said that, "What are you gonna do?" You pay somebody to store your stuff and they're gonna sell it, so. But Grandfather had been smart enough to buy an actual Caterpillar tractor with a track and so he didn't, we didn't use a mule to plough with. In fact, they used to lease land and they had a much larger area for growing celery. They had this gun club in area. They had 350 acres and Grandpa leased part of that. But they wouldn't sell the land to the Japanese Americans. But at one time my dad said they farmed approximately a thousand acres. And so my father would be, basically they have, some of the farmers asked my father to use the Caterpillar tractor and so he can plough. Because tractor is much better than plowing by horse or by mule. So my father said... I saw that Caterpillar tractor when I was a small kid back in the middle '50s, so yeah, it was a real tractor. So Grandpa at least had one of those things. But the idea is that, what a thing, you pay money and there gonna sell it. So, he sent it to Blackfoot, Idaho. So, my father told me that and obviously, Auntie said that they were living there also and, and so that's the reason why they, they went up there to make sure. They were doing subsistence farming. In fact, I believe that they lived, neighbors of, the Eisenhower family were some of their neighbors. My dad was mentioning to us, I think that's in his book. But, when the land they were living on in Blackfoot, Idaho, they had some relative that was related to Eisenhower. So, it was kind of interesting.

So all I can say is that, my father did see discrimination, let's face it. People in the U.S. Army... when my father got to Camp Shelby, Mississippi, you'd be amazed at how many people had college degrees, had lots of experience, and were private first class. Yoshinawa Nakata was one of the men that he took from Camp Crowder to Camp Shelby, Mississippi. He was an M.I.T. graduate in engineering, ao, and he was a private. And he was taken to military intelligence and he was upset. But he became, he worked for Hughes Aircraft after the war and the airborne navigation system. So he was a very smart fellow. So how many people go to Cal Tech M.I.T. and are, are a private in the army? There were many. He said one other fellow went to Harvard University and also went to Tokyo University and they took him and put him in Military Intelligence. But you had people of this capacity because he had their I.Q. scores and their, their education because he being a first sergeant. So my father said it's kind of amazing how many men had lots of education but you couldn't get a job before the war. I don't care what school you went to. And so I feel that it was very institutionalized.

Grandparents couldn't become citizens, grandparents could not buy land because they weren't citizens, people couldn't work for many companies, people couldn't live in many areas. In fact the reason why we live in this area is because Isao Oka who was a realtor and part of MIS and like I said, there were five brothers in Military Intelligence. He said that there were areas that you could not buy land. Even up to, up until probably the, what do you call it, the Fair Housing Act? Because I knew that we could not live in other areas. My mother said we couldn't live north of National Boulevard in West Los Angeles. They wouldn't sell you the house. And I remember even being in my mother... my father worked for Aerospace Corporation and worked for Rimrule Ridge and he also designed cars for Ford Motor Company after World War II and we tried to buy a house in Orange County and they said no, the houses there are not even finished, and they said they're all sold. My mother said, well, probably they don't want us to live there so it's just, it was just institutionalized. And the reason why, it's kind of obvious. We all live in the same area and you wonder why. But it's because they wanted, they said no, the houses were not for sale. And they were being nice about it, but it was obviously discrimination.

<Begin Segment 5>

JT: And also, I want to also mention that I found out by helping out the soldiers, we put new headstones when they got these Medal of Honor upgrades from President Clinton in 2000. And I found out that most of the cemeteries were also segregated. You could not live, you could not be buried in a cemetery if you weren't Caucasian, especially before World War II. And Kazu Masuda was a soldier killed in my father's company, he was a 4th Platoon mortar squad sergeant. And he was killed in Italy, in Florence, Italy, and when they brought his body back from Italy he couldn't be buried near their home in Westminster Cemetery because he was not Caucasian. General Stillwell came down there and was upset because they didn't want the Masuda family living back in their old house, they had a twenty- acre farm. And then Captain Ronald Reagan made a speech saying that all the blood in the sand's the same color and they buried Kazu Masuda in the cemetery in Westminster because that was a big thing that General Stillwell said, "How could you not bury a soldier killed in wartime near his house?" And that changed things. But that was in 1948. So that sentiment was very strong back in those days. So, you know, what else can we say? Most Japanese people said, shigata ga nai, means it cannot be helped. So, what else can they do? I mean I've, it's unfortunate. I've seen some discrimination, but nothing like my father saw. And, it's, what do you do? It's just institutionalized.

KP: What do you think the role of the 442nd, or the record of the 442nd/100th Battalion did for changing that discrimination?

JW: Well, it's kind of interesting. My father actually, they were in Italy, just outside of Pisa. They have a famous photograph of the noncoms from F Company. It was wartime. Kazu Masuda that was buried in Westminster was still alive, and my father, they were talking about it. Because all these men were from, or parents were all in internment camps. Because original cadre of Fox Company were from the United, mainland United States. And Abraham Ohamu who was killed in, in Bruyeres, just outside of Bruyeres, France, he said that,well, if they do well then maybe that will have an impact on the people that are in these camps. And I believe that the reason why it helped is 'cause my father could work for McDonnell Douglas after the war, but he couldn't work for McDonnell Douglas before the war. My brother Peter Wakamatsu has actually unearthed documentation and stating that even, I think from General Marshall, that you can't hold these people in camp while these people are fighting so valiantly for the United States. So they actually allowed people to be released if they had places to go to. They just couldn't stay in California, Oregon, or Washington. So I think the 442nd and 100th Battalion had a large impact because you could get jobs and you could be released. And so I think it made a big difference. In fact, Kazu Masuda is, has a middle school named after him in, in Fountain Valley. Kazu Masuda middle school. And so I think that if the people who died in wartime could see this, they couldn't believe the changes. It's pretty amazing. That's why my father wrote a book called Silent Warriors, to document things so when people asked what happened there is something that can be written down and people could see that. 'Cause he's one of the very few people that's written a firsthand account of anybody from World War II. The veterans that I talked to, they don't want to say anything and they don't want to write anything because it's just too painful, and so my father documented this. And I think it is something worth reading because it's not in Nazi Germany, it's not in fascist Italy, it's not in Communist Russia or China, it's in the United States. It's something that we all have to understand. It's kind of a dark part of our history. So I believe there's, I believe that they did have a large impact.

<Begin Segment 6>

KP: And one of the questions kind of tied into that, World War II, I think was horrendous for all the soldiers that fought in it. Do you see a role between the 442nd and the 100th Battalion and the rest of the American fighting forces, do you think that that might have opened some of those doors because the recognition of, these are fellow Americans fighting from the rest of the returning soldiers that would have helped accept, increase the acceptance?

JW: I think so because after World War II, my father met a fellow who was, who was from the First Marine Division and he actually fought against the Japanese. And he, they had heard about the exploits of the 442nd. And he shook my father's hand. He says, You don't have to like a person but at least you can respect them." And for somebody who fought against the Japanese, that's not an easy thing to, to say. But my father said that he actually shook his hand. He introduced himself and he was from the First Marine Division. And so I think that respect is something that you need. Issei worked here many, many years. They didn't get any respect. But when you die for country, the other soldiers can respect the sacrifice of the veterans. Because they all died together, whether you were Asian, Hispanic, Black, or Caucasian. And I think it did make a huge difference because my father wouldn't expect a First Marine soldier to say that. He shook his hand and he, and he said there, he had heard that they had done great things. And that's not easy to do. And I believe that. You can't buy respect. People think you can buy respect and I said, no.

When you go to the cemeteries, in fact, I was just at a Memorial Day service for the men that are buried in Evergreen Cemetery because, see, they couldn't be buried in other cemeteries. So I put flowers for all the F Company people that were killed in action and wouldn't be buried in other cemeteries. And I realized when I was putting the flowers on those graves, I realized that it's kind of sad. Because each family has a same story to say. They couldn't be buried in other places and I thought, well, how sad. But at least we remember that and I thought to myself, well, one, one of the people is Kiyoshi Muranagi, he's a Medal of Honor winner and at least he's buried in Evergreen. But they're all, there's four MOH people there and because they couldn't be buried other places. And I think that says something about what we as Americans try to hide.

And I was born and raised in West Los Angeles. I went to Venice High School, just like my father did, just like my aunties did, and they never said anything about Japanese American internment camps or anything, World War II stories. You know, I only learned this because it was from the community. But I never, I think now they have something in the curriculum. But before that there's nothing on internment camps. I mean, people don't know. In fact I want to just, really one little story. I was in the Nisei Week parade several years ago and a teacher from Illinois couldn't believe that Japanese Americans could be in internment camp but you could be in the army fighting for America at the same time. And Yukiguchi was a combat medic for F Company, assigned to F Company, and his parents were in Manzanar also, told that teacher that yes, we were. And if you wanted to learn more you can look at these different websites or go to the Japanese American National Museum. But the fellow was in his middle thirties and he couldn't believe that people could be interned and yet fight for America at the same time. And Yukiguchi said, yes. And I think that many people are unaware. And I think it's, it's unfortunate. So I like the idea that people can at least, they go to Manzanar interpretive center or look online, they can find things and I don't think it's a story because there's too many things that occurred. I think the order itself to intern the people is good enough, you know.

And, in fact, one last thing I wanted to mention that when Yukiguchi was asked to go up to the camp and make a little talk at Manzanar interpretive center, and so he was talking to people there. And he explained things about seeing his parents in the internment camp. They owned a sixty-acre farm in Mint Canyon, which they lost. They had storage facilities in Burbank which were burned down after the war, or during the war. And he told those people that he didn't go to school after the war ended because his father was reduced to poverty. And he felt so sad that he went to work for Standard Brands as a truck driver and he worked 'til the age of seventy-three because he said it was so sad for him to see how poor their family became. See, many of the veterans worked six, seven days a week to recoup all these losses. And they didn't say anything because they felt so ashamed at their family living like, or destitute. So Yukiguchi said that he did that for many years. 'Cause he said that it wasn't acceptable for him because they were very prosperous farmers before the war and to be living like this, you know, his father being reduced to being like a, like a, a farm worker. And he said it hurt him so badly. Now that tape is actually in your interpretive center, and I believe that when you see that, it makes you feel sad. And when we were going back to Lone Pine, this lady was in a, worked in a restaurant or maybe her parents owned the restaurant, she was, she was so sad. She didn't know there were 10,000 people in Manzanar. She didn't know. She was born and raised in Lone Pine. And her parents told her, "Don't go to that area." And so she felt so ashamed because she didn't know. She was actually at that talk that Yukiguchi gave. And all we could say was that, what can you say? But she felt so sad. I, it's kind of hard to imagine but her parents told her don't go over there, and so she didn't. And that kind of thing. So it's, it's kind of a touching story.

<Begin Segment 7>

RP: Since you're so intimately involved in, in this veteran's organizations, maybe you could share with us attitudes or changes in perception relating to draft resistance from the camps. In other words, another group of young men who chose to go it another direction, under very conscientious grounds as well. And did your father have sort of a reaction to that and what did veterans overall, what, have you seen any change in their reaction? Or what has been the reaction?

JW: Oh, my father obviously, he was drafted before the war started. So he was never asked "yes-yes" or "no-no." I don't think they gave that to him because he wasn't in internment camp. And, he was not released because he said he wouldn't serve. He was already in the military. But he said for many years, obviously the "no-no" people and the veterans are diametrically opposed. But he said that many years later that he can see why those people made that decision and the difficulty is, is that you can accept it, but it's very difficult to make a change in that decision. When you see people who sacrificed their lives, it's kind of hard when you can see the benefit of the veterans. In fact, when Yukiguchi went up there and he made a talk, one fellow was sitting in the front row who was a person that was against the draft and all that and he drove two hundred miles to see him talk. And he said this fellow was against the draft and he came up there to listen. Because I think he realized that these people sacrificed everything so you could live a better life and I think that it's something you have to live with. My father could understand why these people did that. But look at the, look what happens. When your friend dies for your, for your benefit, how do you, how do you repay that? So this fellow was sitting in the front row at that meeting that, actually, that talk that Yukiguchi gave and he never said a word to us. But you told me later what that fellow, what that fellow, he was one of those people that probably went to Tule Lake. And, but Yukiguchi didn't say a word to him, and the other fellow didn't say anything. In fact when we went over in the corner where they had the display of the veterans there, Yukiguchi told the lady that he knew all five of those veterans because they were part of F Company. And he gave 'em all the names and the fellow who was killed there and all the same... all those people are from Hawaii though. They're not from the, they're not from the camps here but they're actually from Fox Company. But they were all, there was a, it's a temporary cemetery in Italy. But the idea is that it's, it gets the point across that, that freedom is not free and you can sacrifice for country even if they don't treat you right.

One thing I want to mention is that the person that took the picture is Tajiro Uranaka. His father had a photo studio in Honolulu. And when the war started he was sent to Santa Fe, New Mexico, because they thought he'd be, he owned a photography studio. I think it was called Midway Studio. And they sent him to Santa Fe, New Mexico, but when he was in the army they allowed him to take his Volander camera. He took that picture that's in the Manzanar interpretive center and then his brother was sent to MIS in the Pacific. And the mother was in Honolulu. And they got together after the war ended and the mother was very upset that, that her husband's in prison and her sons in the armies. And, and so they took people and they sent them from Hawaii to the mainland as prisoner of war. And the fact is they allowed him to take his camera to take some of these famous shots of the 442nd, wartime. Tells you that... but he did take that picture in that interpretive center. And he's still alive. And I, and so he, he knew how to compose pictures. Now that to me is kind of ironic. But that's, he had a Volander 120. So that wasn't taken by the Signal Corps, that was taken by actually by the Tajiro Uranaka from Honolulu, Hawaii. So, I think we should write a little story about that. But it's kind of sad. And he's not, he's interesting. He just doesn't, he doesn't sound bitter or anything. But his mother was very upset, obviously, there's a, you know. You can't tell part of the family is bad and the other parts are needed. But his mother was very made 'cause she had to somehow survive. 'Cause they couldn't have a photography studio in Honolulu. But, no, I think that there is so many things that have occurred and that don't make any sense whatsoever.

And I, and I think that... you know, I work for Water & Power in Los Angeles and starting in July 11, 1977, and our company owned the property where Manzanar Interpretive Center is, and I didn't realize that. And I was, I didn't realize that and they did a land swap with the bureau of, BLM and now it's made into a park, national park, and I didn't realize that. I didn't, so how ironic. I'm working for a company that owned the land? And once in a while I go up to Owens Valley to, to see, to do demolition on buildings. And at Fort Independence I actually was looking at a Manzanar barrack and the person that was working with me, his name is James Wagner, was born in one of those little buildings that had, as a hospital in Bishop. And so he told me, "This is a Manzanar barrack." And I said, "I didn't know." 'Cause I'm born in August 2, 1952. So how ironic is it, and all I can say that I thought well maybe my mother or her family stayed there since all the barracks had been sold to people inside Owens Valley as buildings. And so it's kind of hard to imagine but that's how little information we know. 'Cause it doesn't say Manzanar barrack on the outside of that building. But, so every time we go to, up to Owens Valley to work, I take people to Water & Power and show them the interpretive center to tell people that at one time we were considered "enemy aliens." Even though you could be born and raised in this country you could still spend the entire time in the camp and literally have nothing left and then the government is gonna give you an apology many, many years later. I don't think that works too well. Because none of my grandparents were alive in 1988. So they never got anything. The last one died in 1978, my father's mother died in 1978 so they never got any apology.

And I think that was really a terrible thing. In fact, one story I want to mention is that after my grandfather was interned in camp he was very depressed for obvious reasons. My father went to him and said, "Look, you can be very, feeling very depressed about losing your business but if you don't support your own children that are in the army, they can lose their lives. You have to support your own, your own, the young people that are in the military because you may never see him again. And after that, Grandpa was in much better shape because he realized that how can he not support the government and his son may never come back alive. My father was reported dead three or four times, so my grandfather, when he, when my father came back to see my, when he was discharged from the military hospital at Camp Carson, Colorado, my grandfather picked him up, never said a word, put his stuff in the truck, took him home. And, and he didn't say anything and my father thought it was strange. But I guess he didn't have to say anything. After everything that happened, what are you going to say? And so he knew he was alive and my grandfather was a person of very few words. In fact, when he died I was twenty-one years old and he never said anything to me. And I only lived two miles from his house. So he, he said hello to my brother once. And that's it. So, all the information was passed from my grandfather to my dad. But he never talked to us directly. 'Cause he was old school Issei. And I'd say hello and he wouldn't say anything.

So, so all I can tell people is that actions speaks louder than words. But, I don't think the Japanese Americans really, when I think about it, they came to America for economic and other freedoms and they had all of it taken away. And I think that, I really think that people should know the story because it's not like you didn't try to help out society. But society really didn't help you for many, many years. And so all I can say is that I like doing things like this because at least people can see that there's a human side to the actual photographs. And, I'd like to, there are some photographs here of my aunt and her husband in camp at Manzanar. We have other photographs as well. So anything I can do to help you people I don't, I don't mind because I think it's good, it's a story that's worth documenting. So when people say it never happened then you can show them this and they can make their own judgment. But I always say, well, if you take yourself and put it in my grandparents' position and take everything you have and put it in two suitcases and be sent away for several years, see what you think. And you probably won't think, you won't be a very happy person. But I think that's exactly the way you have to look at it.

And so, that's why I want to, I'd like to just say something on my father's behalf, and, and my mother's behalf since all of our families were in Manzanar. My father's family and then my mother's family. So there were four of them. They were the Matsumuras. Shutaro Matsumura, Fusaye Matsumura, my aunt Shigeko Matsumura, actually it's Ruth Shigeko Matsumura, and my mother is Frances Fumiko Matsumura. So there is four of them in Manzanar. So we were all in Manzanar. And my aunties are the only two ones that are still alive that were interned. Other than, well, my cousin Lynn was born there, but she was too small to remember. So, do you have any other? I don't know.

RP: I'm okay. Thank you so much, John.

JW: All right. Well, thank you, thank you very much.