Densho Digital Archive - Ann Sugimoto Interview

<Begin Segment 1>

RP: ...for the Manzanar National Historic Site, we're talking with Ann, Ann...

AS: A-N-N-A.

RP: And the interview is taking place at Ann's residence, which is at 12141 Marshall Avenue.

AS: Street. Marshall Street.

RP: Street? Okay, in Culver City.

AS: Correct.

RP: And the date of the interview is June 9, 2009. The interviewer today is Richard Potashin. The videographer manning the camera is Kirk Peterson, and we'll be discussing Ann's experiences as a former internee at the Manzanar War Relocation Center during World War II. Our interview will be archived in the Park's library. Ann, do I have permission to go ahead and record our interview?

AS: Yes.

RP: Thank you very much for sharing some time with us. Tell us where you were born and what year?

AS: I was born in Los Angeles, California, September 22, 1916.

RP: Tell us what you can recall about your family background, your parents who both came from Japan.

AS: Yes, well, they both came from Japan and my father was here before my mother. He had a business, like I said, in the... Ninth and, Ninth Street Market, which is still there. He was one of the founders of it, and then he went back to Japan and married my mother. He wanted -- and my mother had just graduated... I guess the college, at that time in Japan, women didn't usually go, but she did and she didn't want to, she wanted to come to America. And her parents thought America was pretty barbaric, so they, they... but she got married there. This, I think the mayor or somebody put them together, and her mother, folks disowned her because she was coming to America. I found that out later. Isn't that something? But, 'cause she just graduated college there and she had a lot of places she could... you know. But she was very pretty, too, I understand, but she wanted to come so she was disowned. I found that out later. But after four children she went back and got together with her mother and all. That's how life was. But my father already had an established business here, so he, it was kind of lucky.

RP: What was your father's name?

AS: Matsunosuke Wakamatsu. Got a long name like John's, too.

RP: And where did your father come from in Japan?

AS: Fukushima. Yeah, Fukushima-ken. That's a large -- my mother, too, also from Fukushima-ken.

RP: Do you know your father's village?

AS: Yeah, my father... what was it? Was it Saisho? No, my, was that my mother's, John?

Off Camera voice: Saisho...

AS: Saisho? Kamiji? I don't know, one of them. Put down Saisho. Anyways, it's northern part of Japan, and I guess northern part at least people were pretty well-established. Not too many people came from Fukushima-ken, I noticed. It's the largest prefecture in Japan.

<Begin Segment 2>

RP: Your father's family owned, they were a land-owning family?

AS: From there, too. Yeah, they were well-established families. But my father came over quite early. I understand he came over (...) to learn the language...

RP: How did he learn English?

AS: Oh, I don't know. Isn't it unusual? He went and came all over Los Angeles area. At that time, with the discrimination, you know, they would not sell land to the Asian people, so at least he had a produce business. He was, he established that. He would just rent it. And he was one of the founders of that Ninth Street Terminal Market, I guess they called it.

RP: Did he have a large, did he come from a large family in Japan?

AS: He is from a, yeah, he is from a large, nice family. Not too many people came from that prefecture because it's a large prefecture and I guess they had... they were pretty well-educated, I think, his family. The way... I met some of them, but my father was, he's one of those people that really... you know he went all, he went to Mexico, too, but he didn't want to establish in there, so he came here and he worked schoolboy. And you know up there in Dominguez Hills? He worked, it was, it's called Carson Estate now. This Dominguez family owned that, all that area, and we used to go by there to go to the beach. And my father said he worked there, too, as a schoolboy to learn the language. Imagine that. (...) I guess he married the (...) Dominguez daughter, and then they found all that oil. But my father was telling us about how he worked there, also. He worked all over, at least to kind of learn the language. And at the end he did work for this -- it's a very touching story -- he said he worked for the judge, Smith. And it was a funny thing, I just wondered how I got my name Anna, kind of unusual, huh? But I have a Japanese name also. My middle name's Uta, U-T-A. And so later on when my older sister (...) went to Polytechnic High School -- you know that's in L.A. -- she had this gym teacher named Anna Smith, and that's the Anna Smith I was named after. Isn't that unusual? My father worked there to learn the language, so that's how he kind of got to know the language. But my father was real gutsy. [Laughs]

RP: Yeah, in reading some of your brother's book, it's mentioned that he was pretty self-taught and very good with figures.

AS: Oh yeah, he was very good at figures, numbers, which everybody in the family, except me, is pretty good in numbers. He used to run that thing, abacus. Oh, you should see how fast he used to run that thing. Unusual for a young fellow, he got established in the business, and so he was in the market area quite a while, long time. And we lived in this old house there, and he had boys there. And the funny thing... when my mother came, she was brought up... well, big farm family, and she didn't know how to, she just knew how to study and stuff, 'cause they had people... her family raised horses because that's for transportation, and then they raised silk worms. And so they had people to cook for the... so my mother didn't know how to do anything. Just study. So she went on from the village school to the high school and to Tokyo, so she was, she marries my father. He has these fellows living -- and she didn't know how to cook, but she's telling me she put this noodle in and it was going over, but she always told us, " As long as you know how to read, you learn." I mean, it's kind of embarrassing to say, but that's why she never wanted us... we were kind of lucky. We never had to wash dishes. She wanted us to... be active, we took piano lessons and all that, clubs and... so she says, "Just study." She did the dishes. Unusual, huh? To hear from Japanese family.

<Begin Segment 3>

RP: Your mother originally, from what I've read, wanted to be a doctor.

AS: Yeah, that's right. That's why my sister, she should've been a doctor, the one... she wanted to be, and her father said, "No daughter of mine gonna be a doctor," you know, in those days. But my sister took my mom back to Japan when she was okay, and she said she gathered a couple of her friends and she said there was a lady that did become a doctor. But in those days they didn't... unusual. But my mom, she says, "Well, the next thing best to be a schoolteacher." We had a lot of schoolteachers in the family. But she said, well, she's okay. She never wanted to become a schoolteacher, but that's one way of getting out of, go to Tokyo in those days.

RP: Your mom really stressed music at an early age.

AS: She liked music. We were little kids and she used to take us to the Hollywood Bowl. I remember sleeping way up there. She really liked music, you know.

RP: So she did, did she teach you piano?

AS: No, no, she was a schoolteacher, but she liked music, and my brother... his dad was a real good singer, too. My sister was, my oldest sister was a very, and she was a good musician. She minored in music, UCLA and all that. But my mother, beside that, after she graduated, my brother went back -- oh, he, he remembers, he was only four years old when she went back to kind of get together with her mother, and this woman there... I guess she was still living to this age. She was pretty elderly woman, but when my brother went, just before he passed away, and he said this woman said, "Yeah, your mother was the, she was the village queen. She was very pretty." She was pretty. She was really pretty. Even... we didn't mind it. You know how when you, when you're little kids you don't like your mothers to come to school and all? My brothers didn't... my mom was coming to school and I remember one of the teachers saying to me, "Is that your mother?" Because Japanese ladies in those days, well, they didn't speak the language too well either. My mother wasn't too hot at that. But she always would like to visit us, and the teacher would say, "Oh, is that your mother? She's very pretty." She was very pretty, they would always tell. A very attractive woman. So anyway, that's how it ended up. That's how we got to America, anyway.

<Begin Segment 4>

RP: You said that your father really helped to start this produce market. Where was it located?

AS: Ninth and, Tenth, Ninth and San Pedro. Ninth and San Pedro. You know right there, San Pedro Street and the Ninth Street, right there. I remember when he had that store.

RP: He started a small store there?

AS: No, no. He was one of the builders of that terminal, the wholesale terminal, Ninth and San Pedro. He was one of the builders of that. He was that old. It's really old, still standing there. So we lived right there on Tenth Street.

RP: And the name of his (...) market was Berry Produce?

AS: Uh-huh. It was in the, it was in the wholesale market. Right on the corner, Ninth, on the corner of San Pedro and Ninth Street. Yeah, we went --

RP: What do you remember about that (...) store?

AS: I remember, you remember... I went to Ninth Street School, so I think it's still standing there. And in those days, the cafeteria, they used to, like the soup... I guess they used to deal with my father's market. He has wholesale and produce and... so the fellow used to deliver the food there to the school. In those days they cooked it there. Isn't it something, though? I remember 'cause I went to Ninth Street School, and that's how it was. And then later in life my father, when he sold his produce, then on San Julian he built his, oh, about twenty-three stores there he had. That's when we kind of lived off... I guess in that time, I guess we were like middle-income people. We never lived that way 'cause my father is (...) a Christian family, and they helped the church. My father was that way, but when I think of it now, I guess we were kind of middle-class, but we never lived luxuriously. But my mother stressed education and books and all that kind of, and the church. That type of family.

<Begin Segment 5>

RP: Was he a Christian in Japan?

AS: I don't know. No, I don't think so, because I don't know if there was Christianity at that time, but from, they were real, from way back they were. And my father knew Dr. Kagawa, remember him? He was a real, good friend. He came here, and I remember him coming to the house and visiting us and all that. But he was that way... church...

RP: Where did you go to church when you were a kid?

AS: Well, first, it's funny... my father first, well, it goes way back. Are you familiar with the Union Church? Well, before that, (...) he said, he was a, I think he was a Baptist or a Presbyterian, those two churches got together and they built the Union Church. And I remember when the opening of that, we were little kids and we thought, "Oh, what a big church." All that. So that's... and then after that we moved to our area, San Pedro and Tenth Street. We lived there, and so they built a... (...) Christian church and my father was helping them, so we attended the Christian church. And he wanted to move there, but they said no, they didn't want to give up his membership in the Union Church. But he helped Christian church. (...) Before war they built another church on Washington and, and... what was that? I forgot that other street. (20th Street and Washington.) [Interruption] Father and Mother were very good Christians, trying to... 'cause in the market days, you know, like any other place, the people like, in there the people like to [mimes drinking from a bottle], you know, all that. And my father was always trying to get together, I remember, have meetings at the house, I remember, and help toward that. So we lived... I didn't know 'til... now I think "Oh, gee, I guess we were kind of middle-class, but I thought we were poorer than anybody else, driving an old car." But that's life. My dad was always helping, since he's... I guess, he was, of the immigrants at that time... I know they had problems and they didn't have all kinds of institutions to go to. And so Fukushima Kenjinkai, that's the prefecture, they had those...

RP: Picnic?

AS: Uh-huh. And so they always referred them to my father, because my father had a car and he knew the Christian minister and so forth, and I guess he had the means to help them. So I said, when I think of now, no wonder my father was always helping people, but Mother always stressed that we all, we all took piano lessons and violin and singing lessons. And my brother was a real good singer, too. But this, my father -- culture. And my mother, she went to college, and in those days very few ladies went to college, so they said, "Oh, Mrs. Wakamatsu is educated for a lady of that time," I guess she was, you think about it. And she used to help the people, too.

<Begin Segment 6>

RP: Let's talk about your siblings. Your oldest, your sister.

AS: Yeah, I have four children.

RP: Your, your brothers and...

AS: Oh, my... yeah, I'm the third. I have two older sisters. One is still living in the Keiro nursing home. And then Frances, my oldest sister, she passed away. She was a schoolteacher. She was like that, achieve, she was into everything. She helped a lot. She graduated UCLA, and Mary went to UCLA, too, and I think she, she was a med tech, but she liked that kind of stuff. And then I and then Jack, that, he was the baby of the family. [Laughs] So our family, we... they stressed, even Depression, how we had so many depressions and it was really... my sister, how many times she said, no, she would quit school and work, but no, my father... no, didn't want any of us to quit school or nothing. We just went on. Unusual, huh?

<Begin Segment 7>

RP: Tell us about your father, he had an opportunity to buy some land in the Marina area...

AS: No, what he did... well, he bought land, but at that time, kind of the... evidently he, Mr. Pierce of Pierce Brothers, Dr. Pierce, I guess he was, he was a minister and I think he's the one that Pierce Brothers Mortuary, I think he started it, so he was a very nice, reliable gentleman. And I guess he loaned -- so my father bought the land in his name. He did it for several other people, too. I tell you, it must've been a few thousand dollars or something, but the bank knew my father had a business, and so I guess they said, "Why don't you buy this land?" And, you know, he couldn't buy it, but he bought it in Mr. Pierce's name. As soon as my, my two sisters were babies and he knew his wife, he wasn't in very good health so he couldn't trust his wife, so he said, "Why don't you put it in my name?" That's the only reason my father had the Marina land. Ten acres there. God, it was like nothing next to... you should see how that place was, that was like, kind of a wet kind of land there. The dump was right on the end there. The dump is there, but now those million dollar homes is there, but they, it's not a dump, but they got trees planted around and all the harbor there. And when I see that now, they don't know how that place was like nothing. But my dad, he bought it for, since the bank told him. And to tell you the truth, I think now that, I bet it was only a few thousands of dollars. [Laughs]

<Begin Segment 8>

RP: During the Depression you moved out from the city to Venice.

AS: Yeah. And my dad, for a man, Japan and all, he was kind of far-sighted because, well, the farmers in this area, they just kind of lived in the, like little better than the camp what do you call, like the house. But we always lived in the city, and so he thought, "Why pay rent?" You know, it's high rent, so he looked in the paper and saw this house. It's a craftsman house right on Venice Boulevard there, widening it. And the two of 'em there, still remember, he says, "Gonna go, there's two houses you could buy it for," with five hundred dollars, I think. So he's gonna let us choose. Imagine, craftsman? So we went out there and we chose a house, but what was expensive was moving that to...

RP: The farm.

AS: Yeah, because you know how big, with the gables and all. And for a Japanese man, he's really kinda, kind of up there. So he moved it there and I know he had to, that was costly. I don't know, I guess he had some money left after he lost all those building. He lost those twenty-three building, I mean stores, but he must have had something, and he had to pull there, then he had to have electrician. And he did part of it himself. I guess they're not that strict yet. It was Venice then.

RP: What was Venice like then? What do you remember?

AS: Oh, it...

RP: One big farm?

AS: Yeah, Venice was okay. We were... and he put my mom's, she had to have lawn, so my father put a lawn in front and put trees so we don't get all that dust around. And the people around thought we were rich. I said, "No, we were poor. That's why we had to move there (...)," but my mom, she's that way. We had a lawn put in the front, all that. She didn't like dirt, even to farm. And so I said, "Oh, no," but my father knew we couldn't... there is, there was little shacks there that farmers lived in, but he knew that he couldn't put, put city people right into there, so he bought this craftsman house. It was such a nice house, but imagine doing that. (...) Venice Boulevard and to, god, they had to cut couple of things. I don't... a person that's from Japan, but I guess he was that way, my father. Later on in life he, since they would not let people, I mean Japanese people into the country here, he wanted his relatives to move to South America, Brazil. But of course we were in school, we weren't gonna move to Brazil. He went down there. He helped, he helped... and the country, Japan, helped a lot of people, citizen, move to Brazil, which they did. And we did go visit my father's nephews and stuff down there.

RP: I guess one of his younger brothers moved to Brazil.

AS: Yeah, and those kids, too, they did... like here, because they were not prejudiced down there. All the kids, when my sister and I, we went to, she went there a couple times, we went to see them, and right away those kids, they got brains, so Brazilian government, long as you, they provide the food, you know, stay in dorm, those kids got to go to university free. University of Sao Paulo. And, gee, they're either doctors or engineers. See, they weren't like here.

RP: They embraced the race...

AS: Oh, yeah. In fact, my sister says Brazil, all the Japanese people that went there, they, they're the one that provided all the food, not only coffee, but produce and orchards. Isn't that something? I didn't know that. People there... well, Brazilians, I mean not all, but they're lazy. I guess... all that land there.

RP: Did your father put money up for them?

AS: Yeah, he helped them. That's how -- I mean, that's why I was wondering why we never lived, like, real rich or anything. [Laughs] But we lived okay.

<Begin Segment 9>

AS: We had a really good... my father, every month we used to go for one month vacation and everything.

RP: Where did you go?

AS: Oh, we'd go to Sierra Nevada Mountains, and then we'd go to visit up to San Francisco and Sacramento. My mother's old, I guess he was my mother's teacher in Japan, Mr. Koda, he's the one that, Kokuho rice. In fact, I don't know if his one son is still in that. He's the one that, he was the largest rice grower in California, and he's the one that I guess devised that Kokuho rice. You see that now. I mean, I like that. I always buy Kokuho rice, but he was... and he, I think he helped my father, too. I wondered, when he needed help, and my mother said he was, my mother was like his little sister, I guess. He was, and she says, "Yeah, he did help," but my father helped them also when they had... my father, he's always going out of his way to help people. Like his son had a broken arm and I guess they, wasn't put together right, so I remember my father would take care of his son, and he had a real good doctor, 'cause my sister had a congenital hip so she used to go, she was in children's hospital. So spent a lot...

RP: Was that Mary?

AS: Frances, the oldest one. So anyway, it was a lot of time. But my father, now he'd help his friend and he told that Dr. Jones, "Now this man is wealthy, so you could charge him," but I remember this minister's son that had problem, so he told the doctor, "No, he's a minister's," so the doctor didn't charge him. My father's that way. You know, trying to help people.

RP: You said that you took some trips to the Sierra Nevada Mountains.

AS: Yeah, in the summer we used to go out in that old truck. I mean, we had a old automobile, and we'd go fishing and stuff.

RP: Do you know where you went? Did you go to Mammoth? Lake Tahoe?

AS: No, we went to, just to Sierra -- yeah, Tahoe. You know, Tahoe was so pretty in those days. You wouldn't know. Just nobody there except the Indians. It was beautiful. We'd go there and a couple times, yeah, we went there and it was so pretty. We'd go up there to the Sierra, and you could camp on the side of the road. [Laughs] Isn't that something?

RP: Was that, did you take the highway that goes to Manzanar? Highway 495?

AS: I think we went up there, I think I remember the, I don't know which highway, but I remember going up there.

RP: Do you remember going through Bishop and Lone Pine?

AS: Yeah, Bishop. I remember that, but it's...

RP: And then you ended up in that camp, a few years later.

AS: Yeah, isn't that something, though? But... the saddest thing, like I was saying how they told us, I was telling my girlfriend, I said, gee, we got off the bus, but you know all of us people, farmers, we went on, they picked us up in front of the city hall. Our neighbor took us there. But we didn't want to look like straggling, what do you calls, refugees, so all the people, all the fellows dressed nice in a suit. We all looked nice, like we're going someplace. Isn't that something? We just didn't want people to think we're really... we get there to, and then we get off the bus and they gave us this canvas bag, and they says, "Around the corner" -- I mean, not the corner -- "it's, over there's hay. Fill it up. That's your mattress." And you feel... you know, just feel like, ooh. After we leave our nice home.

RP: We're gonna backtrack a little, and I wanted to ask you about your sister Mary. She was, because wasn't she sent to another family for a while, kind of boarded out for a while?

AS: Oh yeah, when Frances broke her hip there. I mean, not, she had, she was born congenital. She had to do a lot, and Mary, we're only about two years difference in age, and so Mary, I guess fell someplace. She was must have been probably only about three or four years old, so the neighbor, Japanese neighbor, took her. Because then I was along. I was an infant, so we were all close, about two years apart. And so she stayed with the... neighbor took care of her. My mom went through a lot, and here she was born and she didn't have to do anything, but, like she always told us, "If you're educated or could read and write..." Isn't that true, though? All stressed throughout our life. Yeah, my mother's that way, hardships and all. She never did, she never crabbed about it either, when I think about it. She had to take care, cook and... she didn't know how to, but she read books and took classes in cooking and stuff. And I guess when you get, have education, huh?

<Begin Segment 10>

RP: Tell us about the farm, growing up on the farm.

AS: I know when we came to the farm my father was not a farmer, and so his neighbor, his good friend, a farmer, came and cut the line. I remember the first time, my father, that was like that, instead of straight. And my mom never... well, we used to kind of feel, 'cause my sister was in college, I was in high school, gee, we kind of feel sorry. My mom wasn't... but she'd help. And we'd help summertime, too.

RP: What would you do?

AS: We'd pick beans, and when they plant celery we kind of laid it out and they'd plant it, but I remember picking beans. They always planted beans and got... and my mother said, "Now, don't pick the young ones." And it's funny how, you know... and we were city girls, so when our boyfriends come we said, "We can't go to the beach, we got to pick the beans." So we'd go out there -- it was so funny -- so they would, they were city boys... but when the farmer boys, farmhand boys, they come visit us, they like, 'cause they know how to pick 'em. [Laughs] 'Cause we were all in school already. My sister was in college. But we made it. I can't believe it because my mom... I guess you can do anything when you have to.

RP: So celery was a big crop in this area.

AS: Uh-huh. Yeah. And at the end when I wasn't here, when they came back from camp they had a place to go. The farm was there and the equipment was there because they were able to save it, and they grew strawberries. Yeah, it was... I remember we were back East, and it was Easter vacation and we had a big snowstorm, and my mom called and says, "I'm gonna send you a tray of strawberry." We lived near the airport at the, in Ohio. And so she says, "I'm gonna send you a tray," and so we went to the airport and my neighbors couldn't believe it, 'cause we had the big snowstorm then, in Easter vacation, I still remember. And so I said, "Gee, strawberries." I give to my neighbors and they couldn't believe it. It was very good... my mom, they got to be, she got to be a pretty good farmer. You could do anything, huh? If you have a background. Isn't that true?

RP: And a little experience, yeah.

AS: Yeah, that's what my mom always said. If you, you know, could read. That's the thing. She was that way. She liked music and all, so she's... and my mom and dad, they like, they were real good readers. They used to buy books, American, I mean... whatever... and translate it into Japan. She'd buy, so they spent quite a lot on all that kind of stuff. But they, our house was kind of like a little library, in the neighborhood, too, when we lived in the city, 'cause my father could afford encyclopedia and all that, and so the kids, most of our friends, they were immigrants, too, so they'd come to our house to... and my father and mother, I don't know, I think they took... we lived near the Times building, and so we'd get the Times in the morning and the Herald in the evening and I don't know, Japanese papers in between. But they really stressed education.

RP: And reading.

AS: Well, everybody did. See that's, one thing Japanese people, huh? They...

RP: What type of music did your mom appreciate? Did she, was it traditional Japanese music, or what did you play?

AS: American music. 'Course, we went to Japanese school and all. She wanted us to speak Japanese in the home, and she spoke really nice Japanese because she was a teacher. Because in those days people from all different, they had the different dialects and stuff and all, but my mom at least, she spoke the nice dialect because she was born, she went to school in Tokyo.

RP: Right. Was there a Fukushima dialect?

AS: Oh, yeah, there's a really Fukushima dialect, I'm telling ya. [Laughs] If you go over there, if you hear them, I mean, it's kind of hard to understand, but it's a different dialects... my mom spoke the nice one from Tokyo. She always -- and she wanted us to, so we went to Japanese school. And we were busy, I'm telling... American school, Japanese school and music school. The lady, music teacher lived on the corner. So we were kept busy and all that. But that, my folks, I guess they really appreciate all that. That's where their money went to, bringing us up right.

<Begin Segment 11>

RP: You went to Japanese school after public school?

AS: Yeah, after school we'd go to Japanese school and come home, got to go to music school up the corner. So we really didn't have to do much around the house.

RP: What other, were there other cultural traditions, Japanese cultural traditions that you were...

AS: Oh, we went to, Sunday was spent all day at church. We were really religious family. And all our entertainment in those days.

RP: Centered around the church?

AS: Church. The receptions and this and that, and that's who we were.

RP: When it came to holidays, what did you celebrate? Japanese holidays?

AS: Well, on Fourth of July we went to Terminal Island, that beach there. Brighton Beach, that's where all the Japanese went, I mean, they were allowed to go. We went there. It was a kind of nice thing. You didn't know, even these beaches, they were really, real prejudiced and all. But Malibu now, I remember Malibu in those days, they used to call it Port Los Angeles and we used to go camping there on holidays. Isn't that... I think, that was over there, I think it's Malibu now, but isn't that something, though? 'Cause that area was all not a closed area and all that.

RP: Are you telling me that there were closed beaches to Japanese? Japanese were not allowed?

AS: Oh yeah, yeah. I know. So the Japanese people didn't go. Not like some people. They didn't want us to go, we didn't go. Or places, most of them were pretty good, but a lot of areas, you know, it was like that. People don't know, but old timers like us knew. But we'd rather go where we're welcome and we're together, and they were all kind of nice, clean, so it was one thing. But, yeah, certain beaches, they were... oh, what was it? I don't know, 'cause I didn't go to those beaches that they didn't like us to go.

RP: Were there sections of towns or, like, Venice, for instance, that you didn't go into?

AS: No. Well, there're places kind of, but most places, department stores and all, they always liked Japanese people because they were clean at least, and honest. But a lot of place, if they didn't want us to go, stores, they said, oh, you know... what was it now? Like Beverly Hills wasn't that big thing then, but certain areas, yeah, they didn't... even my friend, you know Cheviot Hills? That was years ago, this fellow at church, he was a, he started with Disney, when Disney started. This young gentleman, he started with Disney, and he and his wife, they wanted to buy, build a house in Cheviot Hills, that was years and years, so she went around -- she was educated person, too -- and asked the neighbor, you know, "We're gonna... is it okay?" So the neighbor's okay, in Cheviot Hills, and so they built the house and they never moved in. the neighbors didn't want them. So they, rather than to fight it, I guess they never lived there. Isn't that something? I still remember that because he used to teach Sunday school and stuff at the church we went to and he was a cartoonist. He started with, this fellow, he started with Walt Disney. A cartoonist.

RP: Do you remember his name?

AS: Bob Something. I forgot his name. Bob. And he was a church member, and he used to do all the cartoons. We always had nice cartoons, and I still remember... I was kind of young, but I thought, gee, but he didn't push it. He just didn't live there. And now, you know how Cheviot Hill is now. Even Ladera Heights, I had another friend that had property up there. This is after... and they didn't want... Ladera Heights, you know how that is now. It's kind of "blackie" more, but... yeah, so they didn't fight it. Japanese people, they didn't want to fight it. Even if they owned the land. Well, you, you'll be really surprised. My father's land, he's about a block in from Washington Boulevard, ten acre there, and those little teeny houses there, I think they had a covenant that no Asians could live there, those lots. They're really tiny lots. Isn't that something?

RP: Right next to your father's property?

AS: Yeah, my father's ten acre, then one block from his place, ten acres to Washington Boulevard, that area there. Isn't that something? You wouldn't think so, the teeny weeny houses there. But they, I don't know, his land was one piece there, ten acres, but the people... you wouldn't ever think now that, you know... That's Marina, but now it's been discarded long years ago with all that, you know, they gave citizenships and all that. Well, my mother and dad, they were pretty old, but they got their citizenship. They were determined. I don't know, but people, my mother was only twenty-nine, twenty-one when she came from Japan, soon after she graduated college, so she's been here, was here a long, long time, but that kind of thing... isn't it, you wouldn't think that, huh? They had that covenant there. That the land from one block Washington to Berkeley Drive, that's where my father's ten acres... they couldn't live there. It's kind of hard to believe, huh? Cruddy little houses there. Real... twenty-five feet front houses. But stuff like that... it's, I don't know, it's...

RP: Where did you go to Japanese language school?

AS: We went to Japanese every day, every day.

RP: Was it a...

AS: Japanese at the church.

RP: Oh, at the church you went to? And it was, do you remember your teachers?

AS: No, no. I don't remember, that was long ago.

RP: How far did you get in --

AS: I didn't go far. I only went to seventh, seventh, I don't know, seven, book seven or whatever it is. I was really kind of young, and my sister, she did, she's quite a linguist, my oldest sister. She did -- and my mom, they wanted us to speak Japanese. We spoke pretty... that's how we spoke. We spoke Japanese at home because my mom wanted us to speak Japanese, and even at school. I remember Ninth Street School, all these immigrant kids... it's funny, we'd get in a cluster and we'd speak Japanese, and the teacher would come along and say, "Now, you speak English," so we changed to English. We didn't keep speakin', like now these Spanish kids, so we'd, we'd go both, but that's it. But now, here I almost forgot Japanese.

<Begin Segment 12>

RP: You were growing up in Venice; was the community mixed racially?

AS: Yeah, Venice... I came when I was tenth grade. My girlfriend, she grew up there, she know, but Venice treated us nice, because some of the kids there were seniors and we had to leave, they gave them the books and gave them their certificate, Venice High School, but my sister-in-law, she went to L.A. High School, and they didn't do that. But later on you read about, they gave them their certificate. But Venice High School, the teachers, we were kind of a little town. It was a little town when we first moved there. It was Venice. But, no, it was really, they were, we were treated really nice. We were, in fact, Mr. Turney, G.O. Turney, he was the gym teacher. He, we left a lot of the things with him. My brother had guns and things, so he took care of all that for us.

RP: When you were in camp?

AS: Yeah, for my brother. And things that we didn't want missing. 'Cause my house, my folks' house was there, but we knew people were gonna break in. They didn't really ransack it or anything, but the teachers and all at Venice High School, they were, we were the good kids of Venice High School.

<Begin Segment 13>

RP: What did you, what were your favorite subjects in school?

AS: Oh, me? I wanted, well, I was artistic and I wanted to be, I wanted to be a designer. But most of the kids, they went into math. You know how Japanese kids are. They're good in math. Except me, I'm not good at math, but I did okay. They were really, really good to me, Venice High School. They liked the, the kids were really nice. They were, most of the kids worked, helped the farm, on the farm and all that, but they were really welcomed, the teachers. They were good students, you know how they are. Just like now, they're good students. Never cause any trouble. In fact, my granddaughter, she's, we three generations went to Venice High School. She's teaching there now. She was a dean. Now she's back teaching. She teaches English, and my other grandson, brother's, teaching at Paul Revere up there. They, he's a math teacher. They were, but imagine that my sister was one of the early, I think she's one of the earliest that got a teacher's credential at UCLA; she couldn't get a job.

RP: Before the war?

AS: Yeah, so she taught at a church school. But isn't that something, though? But now they can't, they want to have Japanese math teachers. They're good at... like my kids, too, like John, too. They're my two grandchildren, my daughter's two children, they're in computer and all. They're really good. Her husband is an engineer and my daughter's a schoolteacher, but they're welcomed because look at that. He had two master's degree, but their kids really... well, one works for Google and the other one works for... I don't know, they're math... just like John and his brothers, they're all good in math. His family, my brother was really good a math. His father, I think he was, he had a photographic memory or something. He remembers figures.

RP: Did... you went to Santa Monica?

AS: Yeah, I went to Santa Monica college, uh-huh. And then when I was, then I went to L.A. College to... I wanted to be a designer, I mean artist, but I never could get in--

RP: Like a costume designer?

AS: Yes, but I, I liked it, and I didn't do what, I didn't have to make a living. [Laughs] At least my folks were there to support me. But when I was forty-two I went back to... well, my mom says, "You better help your husband put the four kids through college," so I went back and I took hairdressing. I really liked it, but my mother wanted me to go on to college, so I went on the L.A. City College and all, but... I went back when I was forty-two, so I could only work two days with my heart -- I had a heart murmur, and here I am, the longest living one. I had an operation twenty years ago. But isn't it something, though? I'm so healthy. I don't know... I told my doctor I'm living too long. [Laughs].

RP: So you had this aspiration to be a designer?

AS: Huh?

RP: You had this aspiration to be a designer.

AS: Yeah, I liked to draw figures and all.

RP: And then, and then what happened? Did you...

AS: No, I didn't. I helped at the farm and all this and that and then get married. Got a nice husband that supported me. [Laughs]

<Begin Segment 14>

RP: How did you meet Dan?

AS: Oh, he lived, he lived around. He worked in the store and, I don't know, he was just around. He went to... he was, I think he was just a senior, but he went to same school. But I got to know, her brother and he were real good friends like that. But anyway, so he got into a position that he liked after all these years.

RP: So Dan was working at a store, a vegetable store?

AS: Yeah, uh-huh, and he was managing a store at the corner, supporting his folks, 'cause he was kind of like the change of life kid, I guess. And his brother is Henry Sugimoto, the artist. He did okay, but nobody could help support the folks that were pretty old.

RP: How many brothers did he have?

AS: He had three brothers. He was down at the end so did okay, working so hard.

RP: Where was this produce stand located?

AS: Was at a corner there, Lincoln and Washington. It was there where the dog racing... what's there now? Oh, Costco's there now. But anyways, things, you know, the Japanese people, I tell you they all, whatever they did, they never, always on their own. They didn't have to depend on the gardener, I mean government, for support. They all help, help each other. Folks and all. The kids, too. My husband, too, helped support. You know, they didn't put 'em on welfare or this or that. Isn't that something? They were just that way.

RP: Both of your parents were very well-educated and worldly --

AS: My father was... you telling me, my father was, years before, he liked to travel, my dad. He went back East and... you know, California. My dad, to tell you, he's an old man, but he didn't look real Asian. He looked kind of more Russian like or Jewish like. He had curly hair, unlike me. He had curly hair and high nose. And they thought he, a lot of people in the produce business think that he was Jewish. He kind of looked that. He was very fair complexioned, but he, high nose and he had curly hair. That's like me and John, we all got curly hair. But that's the way.

RP: So he traveled extensively?

AS: Yeah, he was, went back East and the funny thing, when he first went back there he's very mixed with everything, so he got on the bus, sat there, in the back there, and the bus driver came up to him. He, this is the thing, he says, "You know, sir, you don't belong there." My father thought, well, and he went to, like to go in the back of the bus, and he said, "You know, you're a white man. You got to sit farther up." Isn't that something? He didn't know. He liked to sit at the back of the bus, so the bus driver comes, says, "Sir, you're in the wrong section." My father wonders why. [Laughs] He was very surprised, all that. He wasn't into that. And then he went to, he and my mom traveled around the world, too, and then he went to Brazil quite often, getting the family in there, very well. He wanted to move there, but we didn't want to move down to Brazil. We were still, we were in school then.

RP: So he wanted to go?

AS: Oh, how many times he went? He helped his relatives go down there. You know, helped them financially and all this and that. I wonder where, no wonder... which is, it's okay. We did okay.

<Begin Segment 15>

RP: Were... your parents must've been keeping up with world events and...

AS: They were avid readers.

RP: Japan invaded China, and...

AS: Yeah, my father was a avid writer. Both of them were, really. But he never thought of going to Japan, because we all had dual citizen. Well, took ours off long time ago, but he never expected to go to Japan, so he was so happy when they finally... that law, you know, they got to be citizens, he, they were quite old. Boy, I remember them studying, pretty hard to study, but they got their citizenship before they passed away. They were, we never...

RP: So were they shocked when war broke out between the United States and Japan?

AS: Yeah, but they're still, deep down their roots are Japan, huh? But they didn't believe in all that. My mom, I know we, she was quite a reader and she talked to us a lot of things, and she didn't like the way that country's run.

RP: Japan.

AS: Yeah, she always talked to us about it, so we listened to her and all. Of course you don't know how our country's run either, but anyway... she talked to us. But she thought it wasn't right.

RP: How did the news of the attack on Pearl Harbor affect you and your family?

AS: Well, they really were shocked, but I think they kept reading things and they knew the country was getting choked, this talk about it.

RP: So, you mean like an, the embargo?

AS: Embargo. He says, "How could that little country --" they knew how small -- he said, "Now how could a little country survive?" I know they went to Manchuria and all that part, too, but a little country could not survive. And what Roosevelt did, too, was just... I mean, this, what was it? Some tell me that when they opened the archives, did you know President Roosevelt, he, they knew what happened. He's the one that caused all that, that Pearl Harbor thing. You know, you shouldn't have all the ships in the harbor there. You should have 'em out. Had 'em there, had the planes all there. I heard, I heard he really committed suicide, at the end.

RP: Roosevelt?

AS: That I heard. Somebody was telling me. Somebody knew somebody that, a neighbor of his... this woman was a housekeeper of the, I think Elizabeth Arden. They lived next door to them, and he said yeah, 'cause, well you gonna choke a country, huh? How it is. Small country. You know Japan is really small. At least... only reason they survived because, with all the people there, but they kind of keep it down. Funny, my mom she kept up things, but she knew it wasn't the right thing to do and all, and the people in Hawaii, too. Boy, I thought, really, those people saw the planes coming over and all. But, I mean, you just can't choke a little country. I guess they had to do something. But he knew. He knew what's going on.

RP: You had, so you had become engaged to Dan and you were gonna get married.

AS: Oh yeah, long time. We went around together for a long time. From high school, oh, about five, ten years. I knew him long time, yeah.

<Begin Segment 16>

RP: And do you remember when the Executive Order came out, 9066?

AS: Yeah. No, before that, too, the day of December 7th. Oh, I will never forget, I went to my girlfriend's wedding, and, Little Tokyo, they were having a reception there, December 7th. She got married. We were all in there, and my father was a... you know, they have somebody go-between like. My father and mother there, and these people came in and took out some of the fellows.

RP: The FBI came in to take...

AS: Yeah... I don't know. And so then they say, "After this you go home," so my husband and I, we were gonna take a lady home. She worked in a home or something, up near Beverly Hills. We're goin' down and I said, "You know, I think there's a cop following us," so we stopped and he says, well, told him we went a wedding reception in Little Tokyo and we were taking somebody home, but you could hear on the radio all that thing. First I thought... you know you hear radio, these movies now? It was just like that. But, oh God, I was scared. But isn't that something like that? Happened so fast.

RP: You just mentioned that the FBI came to this wedding and took away Isseis.

AS: Yeah, they took the people that were... well, the people were language school teachers and people like that. The people who were in organizations. My father was pretty prominent, but my father, he wasn't into organizations. Well, then the sumo teachers and all that, they took them. And my father was only affiliated with church, only the church group. I guess that's... so they didn't pick him or anything.

RP: Jack talked about, about a visit by the FBI to your house. Could you tell us about that?

AS: They came to... my mother usually, entry place, she had a picture of the emperor's palace, kind of nice place to hang it. She took that down and put Abraham Lincoln's picture there. [Laughs] Crazy, huh, isn't it? Of course we had a picture of Lincoln put up there, but I mean, they came and talked to us, but there was nothing else. They figured we're okay, but funny thing how they keep an eye. So my mother took the emperor's, just his house (...). My mom didn't believe in hanging the emperor's picture, just you know... and so she put Abraham Lincoln's picture up there. Crazy, huh?

RP: And they just left?

AS: Well they talked to... they knew Jack was in the service and all that. And my folks still farmed out there, and they were still watering their crops there, at nighttime 'cause they had this, I think some soldiers camped nearby in particular. We're on the coast there. It wasn't a marina there, just like the coast. And so my mom and dad used to water the farm at night, and it is a funny thing, I said, "Mom, they're gonna come after you," because my father'd be at the end and my mother'd be at the end, and when it's filled, she'd flash a light. I say, "Hey, Mom, you're gonna get caught." But I guess they know. (...) One my brother said that fellow that was a bakery man, he was a one that was, I don't know, he was German descent. But he was kind of trying to tell us that our family was subversive and all that. Treason.

RP: This German guy was?

AS: Yeah, this bakery man, he'd go around... crazy. Anyway.

RP: Spreading rumors that you guys were spies?

AS: Yeah, but my father was not... like I said, he was only affiliated with the church at that time, which was good.

RP: And a Christian church at that.

AS: Christian church. They wondered because my father was pretty prominent, but he wasn't pulled in. But they, they took in judo teachers and Japanese school teachers, you know, people that weren't really subversive.

RP: Were there a number of Issei men that would come to your father for advice or legal help because he did know English?

AS: No, no, my father, they knew he was just, by then he's just affiliated with church and the kenjinkai, but he wasn't that involved in it at that time. At the earliest stage of our life he was, because in those days when these immigrants come to America, you know they don't have money now. Where could they go for advice? So they would go to those kenjinkais and they would refer them to my father because my father had a business and I guess he had the means to, he knew the minister of a church and all that. And he would help them that way, but otherwise he wasn't...

RP: Do you remember the kenjinkai picnics?

AS: Huh?

RP: You remember the kenjinkai picnics at all?

AS: Oh, we always went... it was kind of nice because all the... like my father and, he'll meet his friends, and their kids, we got to know their friends. That's how we got to know our people from our kenjinkai. It was really nice, and it was kind of, pretty tame. Fukushima Kenjinkai, they were pretty, they didn't drink so much. I know my father didn't. He was not a drinker, you know, like that way. Yeah, it's really something.

RP: That was a way of keeping in touch with the homeland and the people?

AS: Yeah, my dad was kind of more church family. Community, help the community. Yeah, but it's really... well, life, that's how it is. Good thing I remember good life. I had a good life.

<Begin Segment 17>

RP: How about the, do you remember any of the restrictions that were placed on Japanese Americans, like the travel restriction and there was also a curfew? Do you know, do you remember...

AS: Oh, talk about the curfew, well, it was, my husband's mother and father lived in this little house, and we thought, well, maybe they wouldn't have to be evacuated, so he took them up north to where his artist brother's family lived, in Hanford. And, gee, there was a curfew, couldn't go beyond twenty-five miles, and so he went to the, asked them, and they said, "Oh, no, just wear your uniform, your Texaco uniform, and just drive up. Won't have any problem. They won't stop you." So he took them up to Hanford. In fact, when we got married, lot of our friends, we couldn't have more than twenty-five people at our wedding. We were the last couple to get married in our church. But we couldn't have more than twenty-five people, so a lot of our families, well, they got kind of angry. "How come we weren't invited?" I said, "We could only have twenty-five people." That was it. But otherwise... the curfew thing. It's so dumb. Like our friend Turney, Mr. Turney was a gym teacher at Venice High School, and they felt sorry for us 'cause we were supposed to stay in. Can't go out. Darkened everything. And so they used to have, "Come on up and play cards." So we'd drive up there and she'd pick us up. And there was this army kind of -- they lived in Santa Monica right up near, below the hill there -- so she says, "Hey, just go down," and she drives through and we'd go to the house and play cards, and she'd bring us... we're citizens and all that.

<Begin Segment 18>

RP: This is tape two of a continuing interview with Ann Sugimoto. Ann, we were talking about the, your experiences after Pearl Harbor and before evacuation. Now your brother Jack, he was drafted in the military.

AS: Uh-huh. I think he was the first, was it the first or second draft? He was really drafted early. So anyway, he went in, and my brother-in-law, Dan's brother, older brother, was drafted, too.

RP: That was Ralph?

AS: Yeah, so they took him, 'cause, they didn't take Dan 'cause he had to take care of his old folks. But after we were in Ohio he got a draft notice. I had my daughter, and I said, "Jeez, where am I gonna go? Let me see, I can go back to Idaho," because, you know, I didn't know what to do. So then my brother says -- no, then the Venice draft, they denied him. They said he's doing, you know what he was doing? It's really dirty work, but he was cleaning mortar shells. Well, that's important. They need those mortar... so, ooh, what a dirty work, but that's why they denied his... so he got a, he didn't have to go in the service. And my brother says, "Dan, try to stay out because it's not a place for you. What if you were maimed or something?" you know. It's a good thing, too. I said yeah, I just had my daughter, so that's what it was.

RP: You were talking earlier about, I guess it was Dan who wanted to go up to see his family in Hanford, and he, you said he was wearing a Texaco uniform?

AS: Yeah, they told, police... he went to them to ask permission 'cause we're not supposed to go more than twenty-five mile. So he said, "I want to take my folks, old folks up to Hanford," so they said, "Yeah, you just go, just..." so he said, "Just wear your Texaco uniform and just go," and so he said he didn't have any trouble.

RP: So he was running a gas station?

AS: No, he had this whole valley. He serviced them with gas, and he, one year he figured at one year time he'll have enough money, we'll get married. So he had his truck and everything, and he was in competition with the Standard Oil, this fellow, but he said, "No, no, Dan, you go ahead," because he was on his own. And Standard Oil, everybody stayed with Standard Oil, but they knew Dan. He helped -- and he's that kind -- he helped these Japanese people, all kinds of work, you know, not... I mean, he knows how to do things, 'cause their children were younger than him. He was at least past twenty-one. So they all said, "Okay, we'll change to you." And Melbourne, that's the fellow, he said, "No, Dan, you do," you know. So he got all the farmers here to take gas from him, and he was just doing well and then here Pearl Harbor comes up, so... but then what happened is Standard, this one big farmer, and he said, well, he can't because he's been taking Standard Oil so long. But he's real good friend of Dan's, too, so he said, "Dan, you know --" but what happened is, when the war started, Standard Oil told him, "Don't service any of the farmers." So here, some of that [inaudible] said, "Gee, Dan, could you service?" You know, because they still had to use the tractors, and so that's how it was. But fortunately they all knew here is this little guy trying to make his living, but everyone, every one of them cleared all their bill with Dan. Boy, they had a clean slate, he had a good background, because they know he's on his own. And so here it is. He didn't have anything because he left his truck, and the person he left it with, they never paid him. So he was kind of darn broke. I had more money than him. [Laughs] Crazy, huh? Really.

RP: So how soon, how soon was it that you got married before you went to camp?

AS: About ten days before. Yeah, we were the last one to get married in that church. Only twenty-five people were allowed. People weren't allowed to travel more than twenty, twenty-five miles. Can you imagine that?

RP: So you sort of... instead of getting separated...

AS: Yeah, we wanted to go camp. My mother says, "Why don't you wait?" Dan took his folks up there already to... 'cause he thought maybe they wouldn't have to evacuate, but later they did have to evacuate, even in Hanford. But anyway, so that's how we got together. They didn't trust us. Now I think back, here we are citizens, never even went to Japan. Isn't that something, though? I don't think, that's why Japanese American Citizens League, when they talk about the Arabs and Iranian, I said that's right. They're going through the same thing we went. It's not their fault that they have war back there. Isn't that true? And you know, when I think about them... well, I don't know, they're smarter than us, so I guess they got more smarter people to work for them. We were not.

<Begin Segment 19>

RP: Tell us about the time before you evacuated. Now, your brother Jack came back from the army to help you evacuate. Can you tell that, can you lead us through what happened?

AS: Well, he was called back to the service right away, so they took him back up to Fort Ord. But later I heard that they restricted them, too. Imagine that. He said they took all their guns away and put 'em up in the mountains someplace. Isn't that something, though?

RP: So what happened with the, with your parents' house and your father's land?

AS: My folks just left, just locked it up and left. That's it. And so evidently... like in the Venice area, there wasn't, they weren't really hostile like up the northern part of the state. I heard some of those soldiers said, some, one of them, my brother's comrade said they burned his house. But we didn't have that in this area. We left the house and locked it and left it, and that's it. We didn't pay, I guess my father couldn't pay taxes for a couple of years, but it was his house so after they came home they did okay. At least he went to the bank and the bank knew him, and they loaned him the money, paid everything off and had a real good crop and was... that was it. At least they were not hostile here, at least.

RP: But you didn't feel like your safety was threatened.

AS: No, no. I never felt threatened. We were... this community was really not hostile, I guess, Japanese kid.

RP: There was a lot of propaganda and a great deal of media pumping up the fact that "a Jap's a Jap," and...

AS: Yeah, no, they weren't that way. Well, they'd come up to me and some people I don't know, "Are you Korean?" I'd just say, "Oh, yeah. That's it." Do I look like? No difference Chinese. Course I'm glad I was Japanese, but why start anything? Just say, "Yes, I'm Korean." Isn't that crazy, though?

RP: You shared with me the story about your father's farm equipment.

AS: Huh?

RP: Your father's farm equipment. What did he do with that when he left...

AS: Well, like I told you, Mr... what was the name of that fellow that owned that garage?

Off camera voice: Lindberg.

AS: Lindberg. Well, all the Japanese people were his, they were his customers, so he told them, "That whole garage is gonna be empty, so why don't you pay me five years advance and put all your equipment there." So they did. So my father did, too. His equipment was not real large and it was fairly new because he hadn't farmed that much. So all did. So we're in camp, this fellow says to the farmers, "Well, the government said you cannot keep it in storage. You have sell it." And so they, so my sister says... she called my brother -- he was in the service back then -- and so my brother got a leave, Red Cross leave and came out to there, and the army called San Francisco. There was no such a... he was lying, and so the army loaned him one of those big trucks and a driver, so he had his whole natural uniform on 'cause he's not supposed to be in California. Even he's a soldier; he's not supposed to be in California 'cause he's Japanese. So he came and he said, "Mr. Lindberg," almost fell over when he saw Jack, all his regalia. And so the government rented those flat train and they loaded it all on there, 'cause my father didn't have any money by then, so the government... and so they had it shipped to Blackfoot, Idaho. That's why my father and my sister and her husband, they went out there. Isn't that something, though? I mean, he'd do a thing like that. He made money, all those... they should've sued him, those farmers, but they were his good customers, so you don't know who's your, who's your friend. Isn't that something? This other fellow that -- he had a service station, too -- now he was really nice. He came up to see us and all, which, you know... you just know who your friends are.

RP: So you were, you gathered after you took care of all your, your homes and farm... everything was set up and you're ready to go to Manzanar and you gathered at, I think Lincoln Boulevard near Washington. Do you remember that day, and what do you recall?

AS: Yeah, our friend down the street, they were so nice, the Tittles. They were really, they were one really good neighbors, and they were a good friend of my brother's and all the whole family. And so they gave us breakfast and they took us to the bus, in front of the city hall there in Venice. It was really something. But see, we had... and Mr. [inaudible] Turney, he was a teacher at the Venice High, he was another one we could depend on. We stored lot of the things there. My brother had guns and stuff, and so he took care of us, and he came up... in fact, he's the one that brought the pickup truck up to Manzanar so they could use it, and drove it out. But see there's few, there's... you see we had a lot of nice friends and a lot of the Italian people, too, but now they weren't put into camp. Isn't that something, though? Because this one, a friend, he was Dan's friend, too, and he said, "You know, Dan, you could bring..." they had a seafood business. But then later he said the government told him he could not buy gas from my husband because he's Japanese, so then they changed it to Liberty Fish Company. It was Paladini. They changed it to Liberty... yeah, it was Paladini Fish Company, they changed it to Liberty Fish Company. But, I mean, isn't it funny they didn't put the Italians?

RP: Or the Germans.

AS: Yeah, I know. This guy at the corner of our place, I know they were German people. They were secretive. I don't know 'cause they didn't... with the neighbors. They only spoke German. But see, I mean, isn't that crazy, though? I don't know. But we're not even Japanese; we're Americans. It's a funny thing. We hadn't even been to Japan, and to treat us like that.

<Begin Segment 20>

RP: How did you... what do you remember about your trip to Manzanar?

AS: Well, that was the first trip when we first went there. They said... but in camp everybody, they cooperated. One thing you could say, the Japanese people, they cooperate. Right, first the parents... well, the kids thought, "Oh, great." Every lunch time they'd run around the different, the mess hall, and the parents said, "No, we have to eat in a family group," so then they set a rule, you have to eat with the family, which was really nice, and every... they had their family, they had the kids, little kids. Otherwise they were like tramps, running around all over. And then funny when they did set up -- see, they didn't have school. We're in, in California. And so they finally set up school, and the... but my sister set up a school. She was a teacher, and this Christian fellow that, he brought supplies and stuff, and my sister... so I was helping her. And then they said, "Why don't you have, start a nursery school?" so I start a nursery school in one of the little barracks.

RP: Oh, that was in Block 17?

AS: Yeah, in Block 17. It was nice. I mean, just like half a day, but at least -- I could play the piano, so they had a piano there -- so at least teach the kids. And my husband, he did all kinds of work, but he was forever going out to do sugar beet. They need, see, they need labor, and most of Block 18 were farmers, so it was nothing to them 'cause my husband said, "Boy, they never... backbreaking, the sugar beet." And they go and top, and well, it helped out. And they'd come out. He said at least getting out, you know. And, and the farmers, those farmers... so they'd have to figure out each gonna get. Had it all figured out, and the farmer says he has to take it to certain person that gonna figure it out. And he said, "Gosh, it's a smart bunch of people. They had everybody's wages all figured out." He didn't know some were lawyers and something like that, but they were amazed and when they went to Idaho the people in Idaho were really nice to them. It's just California. I don't know what, what -- but even at that, they weren't that hard on us. They weren't that prejudiced. Isn't it funny? At least, because Japanese people are that way. It's like, why fight it? Might as well take the best solution. And it come out okay, so that's why the people, working and all that, see how they really welcomed people back. We didn't have any problem. In fact, most of Venice people, they used to be farmers, so now they became gardeners because that was... and so that's how -- now we don't even have Japanese gardeners 'cause they're all, all dead now. It's hard to get a gardener.

RP: You were on Block 18?

AS: Uh-huh, 18-5-1. We were the first one from the ladies' bathroom, so I made, make sure everybody's gone and then we go and take our shower. [Laughs] But everything was kept so clean. The blocks, too. It's all dirt; you know how Manzanar, I think when they take these desert scenes, when the wind blows you couldn't see. The dust was that bad. We have to wear things and, or get, run inside. But the people, I'll tell you, everything was kept clean. That's what they stressed, everybody in each block. And then they had to, then they, farmers used to... so they raised the vegetables, and so we had our own vegetables. In fact, they used to have a fair and invite the people from out of the camp to come and see. They were amazed because they were farmers.

RP: Did you attend that?

AS: Huh?

RP: Did you attend the fair?

AS: Oh, yeah. Well, right there they wouldn't want to let the people outside because they were complaining that the people in camp, they're taking how many showers a day and they're wasting all that water. Well, how could you not? It's just dust. And you know, when it's dusty, even inside the barrack, gosh, it was all dirt. You had to sweep it. And so they said we're, they're wasting too much water. [Laughs] But the people, see, they didn't know. Independence, I think Independence said... and that was a close town out there, but otherwise the people in... they weren't too friendly to the soldiers. Isn't that something?

<Begin Segment 21>

RP: Now the soldiers, that brings up another topic, and that's some of the soldiers who were sent to Manzanar actually knew your brother from Fort Ord.

AS: Yeah, uh-huh, that's why they came along and they brought them out to guard us, so he came along the fence and wanted to know of the family, so my mom and dad, and we saw them, and they said, "You know, we should have the gun turn, turning the other way," because those people in the town, you know off limits, they could not go on the, they, off to Lone Pine... they didn't want them to come in town there, people in town.

RP: Military police? People in town didn't want the military police there?

AS: Yeah, isn't that something? It's kind of sad, they treat us... I don't know. I think they, this military was kind of... but I bet you didn't know that on the other side they had the black soldiers. They were in tents. We didn't, I don't know what they did, but they were in tents, and they... I don't know. My husband got to talk to some of them, I guess, and he said, "Listen, how you think you're in barrack. We're in tents." And with the hundred and fifty degree heat and that sand dust. He said, "Look where we are." The black soldiers were in the tents. Can you imagine that? I don't know, I think my husband got to talk to some of those fellows. But can you imagine? He said, "You think you're bad off. Heck, we're in the tents." They, they didn't... I don't think too many people know about that. [Laughs] But you wouldn't think that, either, huh? I don't know. That's... "You think you're bad off. Look where we're at." But they were segregated. I'm telling you.

RP: That was, was that early on in the camp?

AS: Yeah, oh, yeah. They were at... early, they were there.

RP: You saw the tents?

AS: I don't know what they were doing. I don't think they were guarding us, 'cause I didn't see any black soldiers.

RP: Along the perimeter?

AS: I don't know what they did. Yeah, kept all...

RP: Well, that's, that's a mystery.

AS: I don't know what they did. I don't...

RP: Did you, did you see them, or did your, was it your husband that saw them?

AS: Well, my husband... yeah, they were out there. He, he talked to them. I never talked to -- in fact, I never talked to any of the soldiers -- he said, and, like, they would be in the post office, and so when my brother-in-law was gonna send a camera, so he told the -- all the Japanese fellows worked -- and, "You get a, you get a box from Sergeant, I mean from Sugimoto, just put it under the counter. It's a camera. I'm gonna come and get it." They didn't, and what could we do? Even the soldiers in there, they weren't... well, like you know, my brother was in Monterey with them, so they were not...

RP: What were the, what were the soldiers doing in the post office?

AS: Oh, they had a station there to watch over, watch over us. And at the gate, too, to watch. As if anybody's gonna run off. If they're gonna go fishing they're gonna go the other way. [Laughs]

<Begin Segment 22>

RP: You just mentioned the magic word, fishing. You said that your husband used to go out and fish.

AS: Yeah, well, you know they go on this -- there's supposed to be the... what truck was that the... I don't know, farm truck or somethin'. They get in a big truck, so they're all standing there and the guys just raise their foot, so guy's supposed to count it. But I don't know, these people, I think they were from Oklahoma or someplace. They're not... so they go out with them and when they come back they're just not there. They're, they go fishing. But she said she went out there and so when the thing is turning certain way you got to come back under. So anyway, that's what we did. We had some nice trout. But I mean, we went out, though. We used to walk out with the teachers. My sister, when we were with a group with the teachers, so they would walk out and walk out in the desert. What else could, there's nothing else to do. It's a kind of a funny thing.

RP: Your, your sister Mary being a credentialed teacher --

AS: No, Frances.

RP: Oh, I'm sorry, Frances.

AS: Oh, yeah, we went with them usually, but we had, we'd meet with them or go to their barracks -- or not barracks. They lived, they had nice little houses there for them.

RP: For the American teachers.

AS: So we'd associate -- yeah, we just... they knew we're not, we're harmless. I mean, people, the educated ones, they knew enough to, that way.

[Interruption]

RP: Do you recall any of the, the Caucasian teachers that you --

AS: Yeah, I...

RP: Louis Frizzell, do you remember Louis Frizzell?

AS: Yeah, he was... this gal, one thing I knew, Libby Gretch, she was a young gal. I, that name I remember, but Frizzell, I remember, yeah.

RP: You remember Libby, huh?

AS: Yeah, Libby Gretch.

RP: Libby is still alive.

AS: Oh, she is?

RP: Yeah, we talked to her earlier this year.

AS: Oh, yeah, she was really nice. I remember her, my sister, she associated... so anyway, that's what we did. My husband did all kinds of job. He (...) worked as a policeman, and then he kept going out to sugar beet topping and then he was gone, so he was out most of the, most of the time, doing this and that.

RP: When was he a policeman? Was he a policeman when he first came to camp?

AS: Yeah, yeah. I think so. He was, I don't know what they call him, 'cause he was driving the truck around. At least he had a truck to drive around.

Off Camera voice: He was an MP.

AS: Huh?

Off Camera voice: He was an MP.

AS: Yeah, I know. They had a truck to drive around, so it was kind of nice.

<Begin Segment 23>

RP: What do you recall about the riot?

AS: Oh, well, we were smart. We didn't go down like everybody else. They said there was a riot, but a lot of the people drove up. We said no, we just stayed, we were smart. We didn't go up to all that stuff. And that little kid was shot and all that stuff. But, no, we stayed away. That was a sad thing. But I don't know. They... push, push, push, you know. So we said we're not going down there. Why should the whole camp be down there, ten thousand? No, everything, everything was okay. Camp life was... well, it was nice for a lot of these farmers. It was time for them to take a vacation, out there in Manzanar. [Laughs] Of course, like my husband kept going out because... but it was pretty nice, except a few, they call the "no-no boys." You heard about them. But no, I didn't know any of those "no-no boys," but you know how they get carried off. They're kind of in between.

RP: Did you have any relations with the Terminal Island people?

AS: Well, they were the next block down from us.

RP: Block 9?

AS: Yeah, way down there. They were okay. I got to know... I remember the dentist there. He was a, he was a Terminal Island fellow. I got my molars pulled out, but... yeah, it's funny. The ones that were in between, like, any, even the Terminal Island, I guess it was really hard because we'd go down to the -- they had canteen -- and it was really sad because, you know how hot it is in Manzanar, and the kids would like to go down and have pops. And we'd go down there and these kids whose parents are just held, you know... and so the mothers left with the kids and all, and they'd be hanging around, and they'd see the other kids, you know, drinking and... that was kind of sad. Because they were pulled out... well the, what's the trouble is they pulled the husbands away and the mothers were left with the kids. And I don't know whether their bank accounts were closed or not, and so here they were left without -- so the Japanese groups, they tried to help them, get them to places to stay and help them financially. That was really the hard thing, I understand. Yeah, I knew the dentist. He was a Terminal Island fellow.

RP: Do you remember his name?

AS: Oh gosh, what was his name?

RP: Was it Kikuchi?

AS: No, no, another one. I remember because he pulled my first, my fourth, four wisdom tooth out for me. I had to get it pulled out. What's his name? He was really nice. At least I got my four wisdom tooth pulled out in the camp. What was his... Nakauchi? No... I don't, I forgot his name, but if you mention it I would know. But I know this... couple of Terminal Island people. This gal that worked with my sister and the -- Nanauchi or something -- she worked in the lab with my sister. She was a Terminal Island girl. Yeah, a lot of us... but I know a lot of them were in between. It's really hard because I guess their fathers were taken away and, and stuff like that. But kids -- it was hard. It was hard to the family. Imagine left with three or four kids and your husband not there, especially like Terminal Island, so it was really hard. People trying to help them, but it turned out okay. I guess they were kind of glad to go to camp, at least have a roof over their head. And a lot of it, and their education goes on.

<Begin Segment 24>

RP: Your father, did he work in camp?

AS: My dad?

RP: Did your father work in camp?

AS: Yeah, I wonder, I wonder what my father... he must've done something. He was about... 'cause he was about fifty-eight or -nine when he went to camp. I know my mother worked in a garment factory. I know because she's making these great big, what do you call it? Pea coats. She said, "Get the biggest one and I'll make it into a cape." So I did, and the army uniform, they cut it up and made into... that's what they did. But, yeah, everybody kind of enjoyed working, 'cause you can't just sit around, do nothing. Yeah, which is really... but Terminal Island people, in a lot of their... which was it? A lot of the people, their kids were going to college and all when they to camp and then a lot of the colleges offered scholarships for the kids that were in college, so they did go out, which was really nice, I know. But it was hard for them because they got... imagine when your mother has three, four kids all of a sudden husband just pulled away. 'Cause Dan knew this... I think it was a sort of relative of his. He was a doctor. He was in Terminal Island, and so, you know... at least, at least he used to go there and visit him to get his treatment or whatever it is, but otherwise they did have a real rough time. They talk about Terminal Islander, but when you're in that situation what could you... at least we were all grown ups, so we were lucky, our family.

RP: You had a child in camp, a daughter.

AS: Yeah, she was born, on the sixteenth she'll be sixty-six. Imagine that. The picture of that, I showed you that picture of Lil. Did I show you a picture of her, we're leaving camp?

RP: I think John did, yeah.

AS: That's us leaving camp. It's really...

RP: Do you remember who delivered your child?

AS: Yeah, Togasaki. You remember her?

RP: Dr. Togasaki, yes. She --

AS: She came from Johns Hopkins to help.

RP: She didn't have to come to camp.

AS: She did not have to. She was a -- but she came to help the poor, us people, so I made sure, I wanted to give her -- because they had four year med students, and so I said to my sister, "Let me know when she's on duty, then she'll be my..." 'Cause I had some complications, so it was really good, but couple of my girlfriends were nurses there but we went to school together, so it was really nice. But they really gave us all the treatment. They make sure, they stick, the doctors stuck up for us.

RP: In what ways?

AS: Well, one way is the, they were gonna take -- you know, during wartime I guess vitamins and all that was kind of hard, so they were gonna take, and those doctors took... "And these mothers are not eating right, anyway, so you can't take that away from them," so we had all vitamins and everything like we're outside camp. They stuck up for us, which is really good. I told, I said we were very fortunate. And Dr. Little, he was the head doctor. He was kind of a new doctor, but I guess he went along with these, 'cause a doctor like Togasaki, she was an old timer.

RP: What about Dr. Goto?

AS: Yeah, oh yeah, Goto family was a real, his folks were from Fukushima-ken, good friend of my... and he, he really stuck up for -- now, Dr. Goto, Jimmy Goto, he was in college with my sister Frances, so he really knew, and I heard he really, he was really good at cutting all these appendix, told my husband, "You want appendix taken out?" Dan says, "No, I don't have appendix." [Laughs] But he really stuck up for us. He really did, 'cause they wanted to take those vitamins and all that kind of stuff away and he told 'em, he stuck there, too, right there in camp and helped, really. I know -- my father, I think he had a nervous breakdown -- he came over and talked to my dad. 'Cause his father's folks were my father's real good, they're from the same place in Japan, but -- you know Jimmy Goto?

RP: Never met him, no. I know his brother, though.

AS: Oh, you do?

RP: Ray Goto.

AS: You know Ray? You know Ray. Yeah, his wife just passed away, Bernice. So sad.

<Begin Segment 25>

RP: Did Jack, your brother Jack, mention in his book about your father being a little, having a difficult time sort of adjusting to...

AS: Oh yeah, he had kinda, we think he was having a nervous breakdown, Jimmy Goto come and talk to my dad, you know.

RP: Jack also came on a visit, too.

AS: He did? I think he kinda, 'cause he was in his, my dad was in late fifties or early sixties. He was pretty young, could do things, but he turned out okay.

RP: He was an extremely active, worldly...

AS: I think he really got him... well, that was a lot for him to do, to get the ranch. He had the ten acre there and a house there and all that, and he had to get everything settled. Good thing we're all grown up and could do things, just close the house up and everything, but I think it really... but my mom's a pretty strong lady. She did...

RP: How did, what was her attitude about this whole experience? How did she...

AS: My mom, like, she's really, could handle everything. She's both... I think far, as far as educational wise, my mom had the more, she had gone to college, but she was that way. She looking from a life of not doing anything and just going to school, then she comes over and my father had this house with three, four boys. She had to cook and she didn't know how to cook, but she said she did. But her mind, you know... and she was real cultural, which at, at least that's the background to go into. And she was a, my mom and dad are both avid readers. They like to read a lot. I think that helps a lot, when you have some background to fall on, something. She liked music a lot.

<Begin Segment 26>

RP: You had your child in... you told me that there was some concerns about the mothers weren't eating correctly, so your husband took a different job.

AS: Working in the warehouse.

RP: And what...

AS: Oh, that was funny. So he got this biggest, big pea coat. You know how hard it, hot it is in Manzanar and he had a cap. And so the doctors told me I should have a lot of fruits, and so he'd go to work in the warehouse and they, the white people, they had all their stuff coming there, so he'd come back with big oranges and apples and bananas all stuck in his pea coat. [Laughs] 'Course, I mean the fellows knew that I'm supposed to have a lot of that. It's not stealing if he's bringing it to me. But the people, everything, they got along. Workers there, too, the people that came to help, the white workers, they knew the Japanese fellows. They're, they'd get into it. They don't try to put it on or anything. If they are better educated or what, they... you know how Japanese people are. They say, you know, you can't help but this is the way life is. Shikata, shikata ga nai and all that. So they're that way. I think it turned out okay, don't you think? Us people, I know the young people like my daughter, "How come you didn't fight like the, like..." They were too young, the oldest Niseis were, like, forty or maybe something like that, and they were in their twenties and thirties, but they figured why fight against the group. It's gonna happen, so they went along. And now my kids think we were kind of dumb. We just went along and let put us in camp. I said, "Lynn, it was not that way." Why fight against it, huh? Turns out okay, but, but lot of the second generation people think that we were too, they were too easy minded. But it wasn't that. They knew. It turned out okay. We went through a lot of hardship, but look at... no use fighting about it. If the government's against you...

<Begin Segment 27>

RP: Tell us about Block 18. Was it mostly Venice people in the block?

AS: Yeah, Block 18 was mostly Venice people, and so they were, a lot of their sons were in the service and all that, but isn't it funny, though? And then a lot of them just went from, volunteered from camp. Can you imagine that? Isn't that... but that's how they are.

RP: Do you remember movies or specific events that took place in your block? Parties or things for...

AS: We, we used to -- well, my sister worked at the hospital, so the hospital group would have a dance or something that we'd go to, and then they'd have programs outside. John's mother was a, quite a ballerina, and... yeah, actually the first time I saw her dance she was really good. And they had programs. It was really nice. They'd have things for the after... can you imagine being in ten, what do you call that, one mile square place, ten thousand people? You'd think you go crazy. You know, we sit there, "Jeez, that'd be nice if we could have a, go to ice cream parlor or something," but can you imagine, in one mile square that many people? You wonder, it's a wonder more people didn't go crazy. Isn't that something, though? We tried to... yet we were in camp and you would... it was funny. The Red Cross came in and they wanted us to donate, so we get in line. I saw one picture of camp, what do you call, I was in line, too, giving my five dollars out of my sixteen dollar, donation to the Red Cross. It's really something. I saw a picture. I think that was me in line, too, with her. But that's how Japanese people are. You know, help the other. But you really go, I'll tell you, it's a wonder more people didn't go [points to head].

RP: Was there a special place in camp that you liked to go?

AS: Yeah, we go, used to go down by the river. They let us go and we'd have picnic there. They let us go up to there so we'd go there. That was about the only place we, that was where we could go to, I think, our... I don't know but we went there, on the side of the river. There was a little stream there.

RP: A little creek that went by.

AS: Yeah, it was just outside there. But otherwise there's no... it's a wonder more people didn't go berserk.

RP: How did the, the scenery affect you? The mountains and...

AS: Oh, that was really, it was beautiful at Manzanar. Mount Whitney there, it was really, it was... but the really tragic thing I'll never forget, this one fellow, was one of the pilot, I mean pilot, I guess he was practicing something and his plane went, and it was, see, we're 18 Block over right there and he was coming down. I'll never forget that, we saw the plane come down, hit. And the guy, I think he was alive, but I think he finally died, though. The plane, we were right there. That's the only thing I, we remember the tragic thing. It was some pilot, right there. But otherwise we, I don't know how we survived that. I was in there a long time, but my sisters, they all went out early. Dan was always going out. I don't think he could stand being in there, doing nothing. Well, my father used to go, cut a lot of canes. He used to make his canes and stuff like... my mother was sewing and stuff. But when you have an active life outside... can you imagine being in there twenty-four hours? 'Cause I just stayed in there all that time. I was in there, must have been about two and a half years, 'cause...

RP: Now, you were raising your kid, but did you take up a hobby or a craft?

AS: Well, I used to crochet a little but, but beside that, nursery school I took until I got pregnant. But I was in there... makes you wonder. With no TV, no nothin'. Read, I guess. We read. But I don't know how people didn't more go berserk.

RP: Did you have radios at all?

AS: We're not supposed to have radios. You talk about a no-no thing. [Laughs] I don't know, maybe some had a shortwave. I don't know. We didn't. Yeah, I know. Boy. But it's a wonder, you wonder how people could, these other camps, too, like you see refugees' camps, I mean those... and you know how they live. See, we lived kind of nice. I mean, clean, at least clean. I mean, aside from the dust. You just wonder, they're in there how many years? Five, ten years. You wonder how... we were fairly, at least... we were in California, too, and the other camps, too, I imagine they were... well, Japanese people, you know how they cooperate, and they, and the Christian people had their church and the Buddhist people had their church. At least they had their churches, something to go by.

RP: Did you continue going to church in Manzanar?

AS: Huh?

RP: Did you continue going to church in the camp?

AS: No, I don't think I went to church, but they had, my mom did. See, that's one thing, old people, they all went to church every Sunday. They had... it was nice. At least they could get together. The Christian Church had their church there. That was nice. They got to keep something unless I think they would've gone berserk. Isn't that something?

RP: What about, what do you remember... any stories about gambling in camp or drinking?

AS: They played poker. There was not much to drink, I don't know. We used to play, get together and play poker in the, in our barracks. And I would, got my mother interested, too. We'd tell, "Oh, Mom, we're tellin' your minister you're playing poker." [Laughs] But she joined up. But it's a wonder, can't you imagine in camp more people didn't go that way. They took up knitting or they took up painting. They had, they could learn things. Sewing. Yeah, I did go to a sewing class a little while. But they had things for people to go into, otherwise what could you do?

RP: There were a number of adult education classes, too, taught there.

AS: Yeah, that's... otherwise what would these ladies do? A lot of them worked and stuff in the camp, helped in the mess halls and stuff, but they had classes. I remember I took a... what do you call them, sewing, took a little while and learned sewing there, but otherwise it was pretty nice.

RP: Mary was the first to leave the camp, right?

AS: Yeah, she's the first to leave. She's always been single, still single.

RP: And she went to Chicago.

AS: Uh-huh, well she was gonna work at Mercy Hospital and then she took classes at the university (...).

RP: Oh, she did?

AS: Yeah, they went to work out there, a lot of the younger people, they went to work there. They all got jobs places, went out. So anyway, this is my life.

<Begin Segment 28>

KP: Could I just, before we start moving out of the camp, couple questions about Block 18, I hear there was a really nice lawn by the mess hall?

AS: Every place, that's another thing, I'm glad you asked. The dust was coming. I don't know, it's worse than out in the desert, so they decided they're gonna put a lawn between every other barrack. You know Japanese people, so they put a lawn between every other barrack, and so at least we could, there was a place for us to go sit. And there still was some remnants of the... see, Manzanar is apple orchard, or pear orchard. There're a few trees left yet, and so we could sit under the shade there. But every other barrack they put lawn. At least we had a place to go sit. That was unusual. You know Japanese people, they are that way. You got to have a place to sit. It was very unusual, but maybe that's what they must've said, that we're using water 'cause we have to water.

KP: And then the other question is what do you remember about your meals in the mess hall, Block 18 mess hall? And do you remember any of the cooks?

AS: No, I don't remember... no, I don't remember the cooks, but there were some, my friend's father was a cook. He had a restaurant outside and his reputation got around that he's a good cook, so they all wanted to go to his kitchen. He knew how to cook mutton into lamb. [Laughs] Isn't that something, though? Yeah, because a lot of the cooks were not cooks, and so they didn't, if they gave them all mutton, how did, they didn't know how to cook it. But you could sure smell it. But he knew how to cook all things, you know, if they had a restaurant and they knew, so, yeah, he was a real good, so everybody liked to go to his restaurant. But the guys like my husband, they drove a, they were like, internal, they did guard service. They, in the truck, so they'd go around to the mess hall at night, and he said oh yeah, certain cooks were nice. They'd make him a steak. And I said, "Oh, really?" But otherwise, they tried to do their best.

RP: Your husband wasn't a policeman when the riot occurred, was he?

AS: No, no, he wasn't there. He wasn't...

RP: He wasn't there. He was out.

AS: Best to stay away. We all, we didn't go down to look. Everybody's heading toward... we said, why go to it? That's, all that shooting. 'Cause the few ones that instigate that are, you know, they're that way. There would've been some fights and stuff. I know one of the, couple of people I knew, they were beaten up and this and that.

RP: Oh, people that you knew?

AS: Yeah, they had the group, that subversive group, or "no-no boys" they called 'em. So they, I guess they came out okay. One I knew was a Tayama, Mr. Tayama, he was beaten up, but some of those people, I guess... you know how they are, "no-no boys." But, no, I never was in... otherwise we were just peaceful people. But I know Fred, he was kind of hit, and I know their family well. They were -- did he live on our block? His family, part of his family lived on our block, but I remember he, when he was beaten up. It was... I don't know. But otherwise, life was stalemate. You could go crazy, if you stayed there a long time, doing nothing.

<Begin Segment 29>

RP: So Frances and Louie were the next to leave camp?

AS: Yeah.

RP: Where did they go?

AS: They go, went to Idaho because my folks gonna send their equipment there. So I think he drove the truck out there, because I'm sure my folks didn't drive a truck out there. I think they went on, on the train or whatever, bus... I went to see them, and from, from Utah to Blackfoot, ten hours on the Greyhound bus. Dan and I, we were gonna, on the way out we wanted to visit our folks, and so we went up to -- ten hours on the Greyhound bus, boy.

RP: To Manzanar?

AS: From -- no. No, we went on a train to Utah, and from Utah we visited our friend there, and from there we went on a Greyhound bus to Blackfoot, Idaho. Ten hours on a Greyhound bus. Can you imagine? With my little daughter, good thing she was quiet. But she wanted, every time -- every half an hour they stopped -- she wanted to get off and go to the bathroom, just to get off. [Laughs]

RP: Then Dan left to go to Chicago, right?

AS: Yeah, he was gone one year.

RP: One year. And what did he, what did he do in Chicago?

AS: Well, see, they said any young fellows, they... to learn a trade or something. So he wanted to learn tool and dye. He's kind of mechanical, so he said okay, he could go there. So what they did is they just put him on a... what is it? A what-do-you-call-it, not a, they didn't put him there. They were doing... Tommy, what were they doing? Making cans or somethin'. And so he finally told the fellows, "You know, you fellows, you're breaking your neck," because they used to pay them by the amount you produce, and so he told the young fellows -- they were younger than him -- he'd tell 'em, "You're breaking your own neck. Why do you, why do you do that? They're gonna put it, raise it higher and higher." So these young fellows, they kept, they're pretty smart these kids, so they'd do a lot and they hid it, see. And when Saturday comes they'd bring it out and they made, because the boss was putting the limit higher and higher. But Dan wanted to learn the punch press. That's a... so he, he went to, he went to complain to this lady that... Oku Murata, she was the one office gal up there. So he went and told her, he said, "You know, they're not letting me, I'm not learning anything out there," so he told her and so the Continental Can Company, I think that's what they were, big company. So he, they complained and they put him with the tool and dye maker, so he learned quite a bit out there. So you got to complain, even then. So he learned, which was good. He could, he's very handy with his hands, so after we went back East and all, he already knew how to work with plastic, and then so when we came back he went back to Santa Monica Tech and he learned machines. He got to be a machinist and all that, so my brother got him a job at TRW. And he could do, he could work with wood, plastic and the machinery and all, and so they used to laugh. They take... gals, they break their heel, plastic, and they'd say, "Why don't you take it down to Dan? If he can't do it, nobody else could fix it." And he worked during the time of the moon landing, so he put in a lot of overtime. That really helped us, helped us put all four kids through college. [Laughs] Yeah, it really, really did, knowing all that. See, they don't have all that kind of person now that could do machinery and all that, which was happy. Helped us, at least, 'cause I wasn't working at first 'cause I had to take care of the family.

<Begin Segment 30>

RP: So you were left, you were left at Manzanar by yourself, with your child for...

AS: Yeah, it was nice that all the Japanese people supported, and good medical and all that, but everybody was so nice.

RP: You said that you wanted to go out but you got some advice that you should stay in camp just in case.

AS: Yeah, Mom says, "You wouldn't," if she got sick, where would I go? You know, hospital and all. And we, we still thought people outside are very hostile. You don't know. But Chicago was okay, and then when Dan's brother went to -- from another camp -- he went to Ohio, and so that's where... 'cause we didn't have any money. I think, I told Dan, and I think back, I think didn't they give us three hundred fifty dollar each? I think they did, and I think my daughter --

Off Camera voice: I don't, I don't remember that.

AS: I think, 'cause we didn't, we had to have some money when you go out, and so then I think they gave my daughter about a hundred fifty. She's a baby. Yeah, when you're going out, you got to eat and stuff, so at least we had some... I had some money in the bank, but I just left it. I figured, Bank of America, I'll leave it. But we have to have something, you know, when you travel out, so I think, I remember know, I think they gave us three hundred fifty each, so we had some money to... after all, when you travel you got to eat and stuff.

RP: Right.

AS: And it's funny, they gave us a pass like, and we dressed... gosh, we're gonna go out, we're gonna dress nice, in fact, that picture... and so people thought we were diplomats. We had government pass, and so they thought we were diplomats so they really treated us nice. And most of the time, on the old trains, they had servicemen on there. And it's funny, my daughter, she was only fifteen months old, but she spoke only Japanese then, and she talked to these servicemen and they, they thought it was so unusual, this little tiny, she was real tiny, would speak Japanese. But they were real nice. I guess they we were diplomats because we were dressed properly, the hat on and my, everything else, and we had the government pass that said government, so they thought we were working for the government. It's unusual, people.

<Begin Segment 31>

RP: Do you remember... Jack, Jack wrote about it in his book, about a trip that he made to Manzanar to bring up a refrigerator?

AS: No, not the refridge, he brought a sewing machine. He brought a sewing, my mother's sewing machine, and in fact, I still got it there. I was gonna give it to... it's a Singer and it's... I don't know. It still works. But I'm gonna... it's an... work, went up to Idaho, Manzanar, and it went to Ohio and back again, so that's the one. It's a, see that old Singer. It's one of the first electric. It's a beautiful cabinet, so I thought, well gee, the cabinet is beautiful, so I thought I'd save it. So I don't know maybe who wants it, but give it to them. But he brought that, and they wanted him to stay with the soldiers down there, and they had a nice place. They had a regular home there, bungalows, real nice. He said, "No, I'm gonna stay with my folks," in the old barrack [Laughs]. Well, the soldiers that came to visit usually stayed with the family in the barrack.

RP: You hadn't seen Jack for quite a while.

AS: Yeah, I know. It's really... but isn't it something? But you didn't know about the black soldiers in the tents? See, no, hardly anybody... my husband knew, see? I bet the first time you heard... isn't that sad, though? But I don't want to bring it up, then they, they'll start up something, but isn't it... you don't know how it gets in that, inside the barrack it's, like, hundred fifty degrees, so you can imagine the tents. And when that wind blew, it was like Sahara desert. You couldn't see. And they were in the tents. See, you didn't even know. See, very few... I don't, I think hardly anybody knew about it. But I think Dan must've talked to one of the soldiers and he told Dan, "You be lucky. You're in a barrack."

RP: What did, what did you think about Jack's involvement with the 442nd and his experiences that he had overseas?

AS: Oh yeah, he had really bad experience. They don't like to talk about it, but now, all these years later, he tells me about all these experiences. 'Cause most of the soldiers, they don't want to tell their family about things. Just like camp, the people don't want to talk about it. I just remember all the good parts so far. I mean, I guess I didn't have problems or anything. Everything went... me, nice, I had a nice... my sister, guess we were not, we knew the right people in there and all, but they didn't -- except the riot thing and all that. We just stayed away from it. Jack, too, talks about experience and all, really was bad. But you know --

RP: Did you get letters from him in camp?

AS: No, but you know what he, he said when... bunch of these young German soldiers, he said they were really young fellows, they would capture them, and they were so glad to be captured by these Japanese fellows because they knew they were gonna be treated right. Yeah, he said they raised their hand and they were so glad to be captured by the 442nd, but... 'cause he knew then they'll have food and everything and they'll be treated right. Isn't that something, though? Yes, that's kind of something, to remember. Even when they went into Italian villages, too... oh, and you know how the Japanese guys are, these kids half starving and all, and they, they'd give them bars of candy and all that stuff. Kids are that way. Japanese kids, well, they were Japanese American, but they're that way. They're not mean, like some could be mean. Like when they rescued those... you know, that, up the hill, up... that's where most of, I think almost, over half, about maybe two-thirds were killed, and when they got up there, there were more people up there, but they were black. And he, my brother said, gee, they were in tears and they were just so scared. They were scared, you know. They rescued them. But stuff like that, isn't that sad, though? But so many got killed just rescuing them, most of, yeah, almost all. I think my brother got shot, too, when that... there was... but these kids are just really...

<Begin Segment 32>

RP: Tell us about your friend over here, Tammy. When did you first meet her?

AS: Oh, I knew her from high school. I moved here when I was tenth grade, so she, but she's an old time Venice... her family were farming.

RP: And she worked in...

AS: Camp, oh yeah.

RP: 'Cause... she worked in camp. What did she do?

AS: She worked in a dietician. She did all, my daughter was a bottle baby anyway, but they did all the food and they made extra things for them. She was saying that the doctors told them. The babies really got fed well, I'm telling you. So she knew all the... she used to go out to fish, too. All these people. They were in 18 Block, too. She had two children already. The kids, her kids used to come and liked to. But so far, camp life... I guess lot of the farmer women, they kind of like camp life. They didn't have to go out in the field every day and, you know. But they took sewing or whatever, and the kids were kept -- one thing I could say, the camp was a real clean place. And the bathrooms were not so clean, but then they put partitions and they made it like we're not being in a place where all the toilets are without partitions and all. Then right away the Japanese farmers, I mean carpenters, put partitions in it, but I'll say it was clean. 'Cause right away the block leader -- we had block organized -- and the block, too, well you didn't see a paper on the ground, on that dirt floor. I'll tell you one thing, everything was very clean.

RP: Who was your block leader? Do you remember?

AS: I don't know who was our block leader. Tommy, who was our block leader? Our, 18 Block? I don't know who was our block leader.

Off Camera voice: Kume.

AS: Huh?

Off Camera voice: Kume.

AS: I don't know. I don't know who he was. But anyway, everything was...

RP: Clean.

AS: ...organized. Every block was clean, and I'll tell you, everything was clean. You know, you'd go, you'd wander places around, that's one thing that impressed me. All, everything clean, and they organize everything nice and they put the lawn between every other block, and so we didn't... isn't that something, though?

<Begin Segment 33>

RP: This is tape three of a continuing interview with Ann Sugimoto, and Ann, you, you left camp finally, you're husband came back and on your way out...

AS: Yeah, on the way we went to Blackfoot, Utah, and Blackfoot, Idaho and we landed in Cleveland.

RP: You visited your parents in Blackfoot, Idaho. How were they doing?

AS: Oh, they were really, they had this little teeny house, but it was nice. It was, you know Blackfoot Indians were, that's where the Blackfoot Indians has a reservation and all... so they were, they were really nice. She says they wanted, right away they found out my sister was L.A. certified teacher. They wanted her to teach, but she couldn't because she had, her daughter was born there and she was helping. But they wanted her to teach and they thought that she was so educated, but she said that they were nice. They weren't hostile or... after all, all the Indians, maybe they thought they were Indians. I don't know.

RP: And you ended up in Cleveland, near Cleveland. Where exactly did you end up?

AS: Well, out in Berea, that's -- Berea, B-E-R-E-A -- that's where Methodist College is, and Baldwin Wallace College. It's a really nice little town, and at first the people in town thought, "Oh, they're putting this housing here," you know when they think of housing. But then they found out that -- I think they were, I don't know how, near five, ten thousand -- it's, they found out that we were real good customers that left town really prosperous. It was nice. We'd go into the town there, and we gave them good, good business.

RP: How did the local people react to you, as Japanese Americans?

AS: Well, me, no, they got to know me and I think they... really nice. In fact, when I got pregnant I didn't which doctor to go. My girlfriend, she looked in to see who the best known doctor in town, so we went there and this doctor -- I guess I was his first -- and he couldn't get over it. And then when I went to the hospital, oh, the nurses kept coming in and he said, "Do you know you're the number one patient of the place?" 'Cause I said, "I'm feeling good. I don't need any," but they just wanted, they keep asking me, "Do you want a magazine? Do you want this?" I said, "No, I'm doing okay." So he told me, "You're the number one patient." They all wanted to see who I was. And I didn't give any problems or nothing, and so... it's really funny, when my daughter, too, so when she went to school -- in the housing, they had a school -- and the, well, then we joined the Sunday school there, and this fellow, he was, he was a, the bank president, and they were gonna have something, so he said, "May I borrow your daughter, because I don't have a granddaughter," and so he borrowed my daughter, and got to know the president of the bank there, the one bank in town. That's the bank. So anyway, it was really nice, and so they became members of that little church, since we were Christians.

And then years later when, well, they said, we heard they were gonna tear down the housing so we had to have a place, so my husband says, "Gee, I'll go to see the town banker, see if he'll give me a loan," don't have anything. So his friends were all veterans. They said, "Dan, you're not gonna get it. He won't, he won't give you anything, loan." So Dan goes and he talks to the fellow because he's the president, and he told him, Dan said, "Only thing I have" -- oh yeah, the government later gave us a thousand dollars, I don't know for what -- but he says, "I have a thousand dollar to buy the land." And he talked to him and he said, "Okay, Dan, I will give you the loan, and so when you get everything planned you come and I'll give you, sign for every month what..." and so Dan, so my husband asked him, "By the way, what you are basing? I, only thing I have is this thousand dollar to buy the land," and he said, "Your background, character check." See, when he worked, when he did the Texaco, every one of his, his farmers paid him up 'cause they knew that's Dan, that's what depend on, so I guess they checked back and he had a very good background. He had a background, so he says that's a character reference. So their friends couldn't believe that he's gonna get a loan, but then the meantime my mom says no, she's gonna sell her land, so she says, "Why don't you come back?" So my husband flew back and we bought this place. He couldn't stand the cold and he, poor Dan, every winter he had a cold. He's, he's cold-blooded kind of person, so... and he had to go eighteen miles into town to work his job. And then our friends got mad 'cause he's... "After they kick you out, you're going back?" I said, "No, it's different. They're all friendly there," we told 'em. They're all real friendly, so here we are.

RP: Did, did the local people in that area know about the evacuation at all?

AS: No, they didn't. Even, even the college professors, the young professors at Baldwin Wallace College, they didn't know. Even the director of the housing, he wondered why... 'cause it was for displaced people, so I went in there and I said, "I'm displaced." I told him what happened. I'm displaced from California. They wondered, they didn't know about it. And she's a educated person. But they didn't know about. Middle west, they didn't know about this evacuation. Isn't it funny, though? "God, why would they evacuate you? You're such nice people." I said, "We didn't. We were just put into concentration camps." But it's, isn't middle, middle places, they didn't understand. Even those young college professors, they want to have a little [inaudible], then my son, Brian, was about six years. I think they just wanted a little Japanese boy in there, so they told Dan, "You don't have to do anything," 'cause Dan said, "I have to work so long hours, I can't do different things, plan for the..." "You don't have to do anything." You know those college professors only work, like, three, three days a week or something? Those professors. So they say, "You don't have to do anything. Just come to the -- " I think they just wanted a little Japanese boy in there, so they were proud to have Brian in there. So isn't it middle west they didn't know? They wondered why such nice people... even to, later we heard, this fellow that became acquainted with Dan, he was an architect and his father in law was a principal of a high school in Cleveland, and he said there's a lot of high school children, the high school kids moved to Cleveland and he said they were the nicest students. They didn't have any, they weren't bitter or anything, and he was telling his son-in-law that the Japanese students, they were the best students. They didn't cause any trouble, and here they were, were in camp and all that. And he said they were the nicest students. They don't cause problems. You know, do the best you could and show the best part. I know even Lynne, too, they couldn't believe that. 'Course, she was a baby so it didn't matter, but she got to know, known as the princess of the housing project. It's funny, she's a... 'cause my mom always send all the clothes and stuff to her, and she always liked to dress nice and she did, so they always notice. [Laughs] And, gee, I got to be real good friends with all the people, but now all my friends in the housing -- well see, I lived too long -- the housing project, the last one was my next door neighbor. She passed away. But I have one, this Russian people -- they're second generation Russian -- they're the only ones in the housing. But yet, all these years they all kept writing to me. Isn't it something?

RP: You said this was a housing project for displaced people?

AS: Displaced army, people of soldiers coming back, want to go on to college. Lot of 'em went on to college or jobs and things. That's the kind of people served. Family people. It's really, it was nice. We all had kids and we all, starting from... most of us didn't have cars until we'd gotten enough money to buy a car, so we were all in this, down the... little... but all nice people, all different background. A Polish, Italian, Russian, German, they were just like me, us. But it's nice people, working people like that. But it's a funny thing, you know what? Even then, back, housing for the black people. They had different housing for black people. There was only one black family that came in there and we, we got to know... they were, and the mother kept the kids in her place unless they were invited to go into... my girlfriend said, "Yeah, see if they..." but I didn't know they had housing for just black people. Isn't that something? But see, now, I don't know how it is now.

<Begin Segment 34>

RP: How long did you spend in Ohio?

AS: Ten years. They were gonna tear it down, so we had to come back. Time to come back because we got to know this fellow, Mr. MacMill. My husband worked for him, a little plastic. And his family, his family was the, they originated... what's that? Oberlin College. And so -- but he moved to Oberlin -- and he said, "If you stay here long enough that your daughter's going to college, she could get into Oberlin." Heck, I wouldn't want to live in that town. I mean, it's a little town. It's a nice town, but not like for me. It's cold, too. But said, "Your daughter could get a scholarship to Oberlin College." Heck, I can get here and go to state college, so that's what we planned, to come back here and our kids went to state college and universities. But see, back there it would've been very expensive. He said my daughter could go to Oberlin College. I says heck, I wouldn't want to live there in Oberlin. [Laughs]

RP: But you moved back to the Venice area?

AS: Yeah, right here.

RP: Right here.

AS: This year we've been here fifty-two years. Fifty-two years.

RP: What did it look like after, after you got back how had it changed?

AS: Well, no farms. But all the farmers, they were doing gardening and putting their kids through school, and all their kids all went to college, too. Our friends, they were farmers. They couldn't do it because they had to make a living, but all their kids... so my kids had real nice friends all through... this used to be all down this... I think my husband was the last of the old person to live, he lived so long, but we're the old timers here now. The lady across the street, her husband died, but she lived here longer than us. But all our friends Japanese people down the line, down past the way. They were much younger than Dan. We came back to our spot and then... but parents all did well. I mean, they went into gardening, 'cause what else could they do to, they have to... and all their kids, too. They were smart kids, too. They all went to college and they're all doing well.

RP: Your, when did your parents come back to, from Blackfoot, Idaho?

AS: Oh, they came, they came back pretty... I don't know. They came soon as they let them.

RP: They were allowed back into California.

AS: Yeah, my father would... like I said, my father was... well, I guess he was early sixty. He was pretty young. So he and my mother were gonna drive back from Idaho, so he can, carried a couple of cans of gasoline because he said along the way some old towns, they were kind of prejudiced. So he was ready. He had his gasoline, came all the way from Blackfoot, Idaho. And my mom's, see, my mom didn't drive in those days, I guess. I said, "Mom, see, trouble you didn't learn to drive. You shoulda drove." So he got kind of sick on the way, in the desert, so they parked, I think, side of the road and so next, my mom said she was kind of worried there. But he got okay. Next day they drove back there and everything was okay. But see, some places, they still were kind of hostile. Isn't that something? But when they come back here, California, well, everything's okay. See, California is close to the Pacific and all that, but... I mean here, but up north they were kind of hostile. Some of the, my brother's friends said their, somebody burned one of their houses or something, I don't know. But here, we were okay.

RP: You saw a distinctive change in attitude when you came back from Ohio?

AS: No, it was all friendly. I lived in this right here area. They were all, really all friendly. We didn't have people to... and all the farmers were back again, but they were all doing gardening or something, and they got jobs in other places. The ones that had college education, at least right away, Douglas and TRW and places hired them because they got the brains, they found out. They said, "What a difference."

RP: And your sister got hired, too.

AS: Oh, yeah. She worked in Inglewood first, and then she got hired. And her friends all, the ones that, younger than her... but they got all hired back. They needed good teachers and they're good teachers. Every place, they found out in shops, too. The people are, they are smart and they're... my girlfriend, too, she worked, she was a lead lady. They found out the Japanese ladies -- not me, but I mean... they're really, they really could... right now the Chinese ladies and Vietnamese ladies, really smart. I know my, my... what is it? My grandson's wife, she's, she's from Vietnam. I think she's originally, she said her father was Chinese, from China. She got a really good job in software, and my grandson -- 'course, they're into computers and all. They were the early graduates of... you know. But they both are in... and they like them. They're that, mathematically kind of...

<Begin Segment 35>

RP: Did you, have you returned to Manzanar ever?

AS: Yeah, fiftieth anniversary. I told my daughter, "Let's go to, we'll go see your birthplace." Fiftieth anniversary, we drove up there. And her husband was born in the camp in the desert, Poston, I think, or someplace. But yeah, we went to Manzanar. I said, "Lynne, this is where you were born."

RP: How did she react to that?

AS: I don't know. She wanted... 'cause more people ask her, "Where were you born and where's Manzanar?" So now she knew. Yeah, she... so there, there it is. A lot of these gals... so she saw Manzanar. I don't know, I don't want to go back again because, unless I pass by there. They put a museum there now, too. I know I should go see the museum.

RP: How about the, the apology? The government apologized to the Japanese Americans in 1988. President Reagan signed a bill.

AS: Yeah.

RP: And then President Bush sent a apology letter and a check. How did you feel about that?

AS: Well, I was real surprised, but at least they, they finally did. And the citizenship, because my mom and dad wanted to be a citizen so long, and look at how... my mom was only twenty-one when she came here, so she was eighty-six when she died. She's a long time here. My dad, too. And so they wanted to get their citizenship, so anyway, they got it.

RP: Do you remember that, the day of the ceremony and...

AS: I don't think... I wasn't here. I think we were in Ohio. But they really studied for it because it's hard. But they studied for it and all, and all that. Don't you think that was coming, though? The Japanese people and all that. I think they, they deserved it. I know, I think, like my dad and mom did. They did so much for this country. They sent us off to college. That's hard enough. And helped other people and all, helped their family go to Brazil. They're doing very good there, the, their grandkids and all. They're really doing well up there. But see, they didn't have the hardship like we did, because we were real discriminatory. But there they were welcome, see, so it was a different thing, and people, people, the Brazilian, too, really, they're receptive to them. They know it's all these Japanese people and they did the farm and the vegetables and all. It's kind of them. I didn't know that, but that's how it was. 'Cause I guess the Brazilian people, they're not... you know, they're that way. So the, all the fruits and vegetables and all of the Japanese farmers, and I think there was some Italian farmers... so there was no prejudice against it, so they could always go around with their head high. Well, heck, I mean, I lived around this area all, most of my life, Los Angeles, and we were, to tell you the truth... I mean, I was treated real nice in school. There was no discrimination and all that. Even Venice High School, too. Yeah, you know Venice High School, Tommy? They were real nice. Do you know my graduating class, I was the second prettiest girl in the class? You know, it's funny, those poster things. I think I, because I was Japanese, I was popular with the Japanese boys, too. [Laughs] But isn't it really, isn't that something? But they didn't, see, they were really not... in those days, too.

RP: Kirk, do you have any questions?

AS: Isn't that something. I would... I didn't want to be -- I was voted the secretary of the student -- I didn't want to be the student body secretary. I didn't want to, but I heard that Mrs. Lee, the vice principal, she put me, wanted me to... I didn't even want to be, I'm not that kind of a person, leader, like my sisters. But they wanted me to be, she wanted me to be the secretary. How do you like that? And those Japanese boys all put up... I mean, so I didn't even want to be a... that's what, I was a secretary. I was a secretary of the student body, believe it or not, but I didn't even want to be it. I'm not that way, not like my two sisters. They're really leaders, but anyway, that's how it was. So see, you could see it's not prejudice.

RP: Ann, thank you so much for allowing us to interview you.

AS: Yeah, okay. I don't know, did I do okay?

RP: You did great.