<Begin Segment 10>

RP: So what was high school like for you?

MS: Well, high school was, that was quite good. By that time, let's see now, I think in junior high school probably, I had read Emerson and because before that I was a woman and then in Japanese family the women didn't speak as much or didn't assert herself. And then when I read Emerson I think I was developing a bit of independence. And so, when I got to high school, and I think I was expecting really to take more, be more active in the flower shop, but I felt that it was important for me... and I like sports, and I certainly... and I liked studying, so I thought one of the three things that would be important for me in high school would be studies, obviously, and then sports, and then the social. Because I needed to develop some kind of social. And I had been very shy. So I didn't really speak much to people before that. And so when I decided to go to, to the Union church -- I don't know whether I've shared all this because something I've certainly kept to myself -- but I decided that the people at the church don't know that I don't speak, that I rarely, rarely speak. And so that I should. I should try to speak out more and I did. And it was very good because I met, at the church I met Japanese people, really for the first time in terms of interacting with them. And I realized that there was a certain cliqueishness because they all lived in the same community and knew Japanese and shared a culture. And so in a sense I was very much like an outsider coming in. But, but you help around and gradually you're part of it. And I actually became quite, fairly active.

[Interruption]

RP: This is tape two of a continuing interview with Margaret Ichino. Margaret, you were just telling us how you were kind of breaking out of your shell a little bit and developing a little bit of a social life with members of this Japanese Union church.

MS: Yes.

RP: Tell us what evolved from, from your contacts there.

MS: Yes, and, so I actually became fairly active, as I said, and we had, I joined a Girls Club. The Girls Club, that's interesting, how did it get there? Was in Christian church. Was in, and I also became a sponsor or a, like a leader of the younger group. But, we, the groups, the girls clubs and the boys clubs, would have dances together and have activities, and we would do things. So that was very good. And I even somehow became a song leader. [Laughs] I think, I don't know how that happened. But in many of the larger gatherings, I remember, I simply led a lot of the songs.

RP: What type of songs are we talking about?

MS: Hmm. Now I can't even remember the songs. But, I think they were more songs that were popular among the clubs I guess. Because they weren't popular songs in a sense. They must have been traditional, folk songs or...

RP: Japanese songs?

MS: No, no. no. No.

RP: Just...

MS: Uh-huh, just American songs. Let me see if I can remember any of them. Or the kind of songs maybe you sing in the schools, when they had music.

KP: [Inaudible].

RP: Right. One of your motivations for going to the church was the fact that you were kind of limited in your dating possibilities. You mentioned that, you know...

MS: Uh-huh, uh-huh.

RP: ...Japanese could not date Caucasians.

MS: I think it was. Partly, I wanted to meet some Japanese of all since I... and I had at least a short time because that was, let's see now, I graduated high school in '36, 1936. So I must have started before that. I must have gone to the church in '35 or '34, I don't know. It must have been '35.

RP: How did you discover this sort of, was it sort of an unspoken covenant about dating, who you dated in high school?

MS: Oh, we knew. It, you know, everyone knew that you could not date... it was illegal.

RP: Illegal to date? It was illegal to marry.

MS: Yeah, well, but, I mean, why would you date... [Laughs]

RP: Why would you date?

MS: So, yes. There was a very, there was a very active Korean girl and I think the Koreans were more, well, less reserved than the Japanese. And there was one Korean family in the high school. And there actually were about three, I think, Japanese families in our high school, but different grades. And so she dated, I think she dated a black man, which was very bold in the '30s. But she was very self assured. And her, her brother became a, I think he was an Olympic diver at that time, too. He was Sammy Lee. And I know there was a Japanese girl who also dated a black person and that was a shock to the Japanese community because there was a... all the races have some kind of prejudice and the Japanese had definitely a prejudice against the blacks, I think. And also the Filipinos, against Filipinos. And since I had been in the Caucasian community I hadn't picked up, well, I hadn't picked up much of that. I don't think there was any, there were none around. But when I went to Union church, I went on the streetcar and I could also change to another car. And we went through what was called Filipino town, before you get to Japanese town. And sometimes it was quicker on a Sunday to walk down rather than wait for the streetcar. So I would often just walk down. And I think some of the Japanese were real shocked because I was walking kind of alone through Filipino town. I had nothing against the Filipinos. I mean, I didn't even know any. So, and I hadn't received any of that from my parents. So, I became aware of different kinds of prejudices appearing.

<End Segment 10> - Copyright © 2009 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.