Densho Digital Archive - Susumu Iwasaki Interview

<Begin Segment 1>

RP: This is an oral history for the Manzanar National Historic Site. This morning is April 11th, Saturday, and we're interviewing Cabbie Iwasaki.

SI: Right.

RP: And the interview is taking place at 2136 Vista Mesa.

SI: Right.

RP: In, would this be Orange, California?

SI: It's Orange, right.

RP: Okay, Orange, California. And our videographer is Kirk Peterson. The interviewer this morning is Richard Potashin. And we'll be talking with Cabbie about his experiences as an internee at the Manzanar War Relocation Center, as well as his life before and after camp. Our interview will be archived in the site library. And, Cabbie, do I have permission to go ahead and record our interview?

SI: Oh, yes. Uh-huh.

RP: Okay. And I'm gonna refer to you as Cabbie.

SI: That's fine.

RP: Okay. All right, thank you again. Cabbie, first of all, tell me your date of birth and where you were born?

SI: 6/18/27.

RP: And where?

SI: On Terminal Island. And my home address was 617 Tuna Street.

RP: Tuna Street. Were you born at home or was there a hospital on Terminal Island?

SI: That I don't know.

RP: How about your given name at birth?

SI: Pardon?

RP: Your given name at birth. Did you have a Japanese name?

SI: Oh yes, uh-huh. My real... actually, my name is Susumu.

RP: Uh-huh. Could you spell that for us?

SI: S-U-S-U-M-U.

RP: Okay. And your last name, Iwasaki?

SI: Iwasaki.

RP: I-W-A-S...

SI: S-A-K-I. Right.

RP: How did you acquire the nickname Cabbie?

SI: Everybody asks me that. I still don't know to this day how I got that name. But it stuck to me ever since I was little. And that's how it went all through my life.

RP: Do you, do you know what your Japanese first name, Susumu, means?

SI: "Susumu" means to advance, to go forward.

RP: How about your last name, Iwasaki?

SI: Iwasaki is, it's a tip of a rock or a boulder.

<Begin Segment 2>

RP: Tell us what you can about your father, his background in Japan...

SI: That's one thing I really don't know too much about. My younger brother did know... he did a little research. But all I know is he was... see, in Japan they have what they call a yoshi. Yoshi means one family, if this family don't have a, a male person, will take his name. So my, actually, my father's name was Shiba. And then he went to Iwasaki, you know. And then my mother was Iwasaki, okay? And then she went to Yoshida. Okay, so her, actually her registered name is Yoshida. My, mother's name, Wakaye Iwasaki... Yoshida, actually. And then so my father and mother, from... since Father went from Shiba to Iwasaki, you know, he took the Iwasaki name. So that's how come he and my mother married and came to United States.

RP: Where was he from in Japan?

SI: Wakayama.

RP: And that's, that's right on the coast?

SI: Right. Most, most people from Terminal Island, they were from the coastal area in Wakayama. And there were a few from other places like Hiroshima, Mie-ken, but most of the other people were from... since they were from the coast and most of 'em was fisherman. So...

RP: So we can assume that your father's family were fisherman?

SI: My father?

RP: Your father's family?

SI: Oh, no, no. My father was a barber on Terminal Island.

RP: But, in Japan, his family, were they, were they fisherman?

SI: That I don't know. My uncle was a contractor, my mother's brother. And my grandfather, he was on Terminal Island, too. And he was a fisherman.

RP: That'd be the grandfather on your mother's or father's side?

SI: It'd be my mother's side. See, my mother went from Iwasaki to Yoshida. And my grandfather and grandmother were, they were Yoshida. So...

RP: Do you know roughly when your father came over to the United States?

SI: That I don't know. That I don't know.

RP: And give us his name.

SI: Pardon?

RP: Your father's name?

SI: Masutaro.

RP: Spell that?

SI: M-A-S-U-T-A-R-O, first name.

RP: And what brought your father to the United States?

SI: Well, as far as I can see, from what I can remember is that they just came here to make a better for themselves. And, and I don't know how he ever got to be a barber, but he became a barber. I think he came... one time, if I can recall, he came once by himself and he was in San Francisco and then went back and then got married and then came back and brought my mother and then they settled in Terminal Island. And how he ever got to be a barber, I don't know.

RP: And you say that your mother's parents also came over to...

SI: Yes, uh-huh.

RP: Were there any other family members that came to the United States?

SI: Yeah, my cousin came over. So he was my father's side. And on my mother's side, nobody came. Except on my father's side, a fellow named Shiba, one of the Shiba... so he's my cousin, actually. And then he had a daughter that lives in San Juan? San Juan Capistrano, I think. I have never met her. And when my cousin died I had, I had to go, so I was away someplace and I didn't get to meet them, you know. But that was the only family that I know that came, came from Japan.

RP: Do you know, roughly, the time that your father and mother settled in Terminal Island?

SI: No. I know it's before 1924 because that's when my brother was born.

RP: And your father worked as a, as a barber.

SI: Yeah, right.

RP: Where was the barbershop located in Terminal Island?

SI: Well, same address. 617 Tuna Street.

<Begin Segment 3>

RP: What other memories do you have of, early on of growing up on Terminal Island?

SI: Oh, you mean my brother?

RP: No, your own memories of growing up on Terminal Island.

SI: Well, you mean my relative, you're talking about, right?

RP: Well, you. What do you remember about Terminal Island as a kid?

SI: Not too much. I mean we just... we're still going to school then. When the war broke out, I was in the eighth grade and fourteen years old. And I remember the day when the, the army personnel came and delivered that message that we had to leave Terminal Island in forty-eight hours. And that was pretty rough. I mean, for, you know, my dad. And it was... he never left Terminal Island to begin with and so there was no storage area or nothing. But somehow or another he managed to store some of the stuff someplace. I don't know how he ever did that. And then we, we had, one of the few fortunate people that used to have a car. And all that stuff that's, was in the store, the barbershop, he left it. And we couldn't take it. The mirrors and the chairs and furnitures and beds and everything was left all there.

And my highlight -- I don't want to say my highlight -- but the worst thing that ever happened to me was on, when everybody left, my dad and... it was what? Four more other kids, my mother, and they left for L.A. And I was left there by myself. And I was sitting on the porch and some guy came on a pickup and says, "Hey, what are you doing here?" I says, "Well, I'm waiting for my folks to pick me up." And of course they never came, came back. That was... but, you know, the funny part of it was I wasn't even afraid. For what reason, I don't know. So I was sittin' there and then the guy... in fact I can remember I was sitting on one of the bed's frame, and the guy says, "Well," he says, "you gotta come with me," he says. "So I'll try to find your folks." So he took me to L.A. and then I guess apparently he knew most, where most of the Terminal Island people went. Not most, I would say some. And they was either at the Evergreen Hostel or the Baptist Church on Second Street on Evergreen. So he took me over there first. And they weren't there. And so he took me up to the, the hostel, which is 506 North Evergreen. And I still remember that, that place. Then, and they were there, so... I didn't think nothing of it. I just got, went over there. I says, "I'm back." I says, "I'm here." [Laughs] So anyway, that's what happened.

<Begin Segment 4>

RP: Let's back up a little bit. In... can you introduce us to the rest of your siblings, your brothers and sisters?

SI: Yeah.

RP: Starting with the oldest first. Who was the... you have an older brother?

SI: Yeah.

RP: His name?

SI: Nori. Noriyuki. That was his first name. Then the number two son was Isamu. And I was the third. And then we have a daughter, I mean, a sister, Tae. And, anyhow, I still got a younger brother, Itsu, Itsuo. So there was five of us in our family.

RP: And who were you closest to?

SI: Pardon?

RP: Who were you closest to of your siblings?

SI: I guess my oldest brother, huh. He was one of those kind of guys that's, you know, just took care of everybody. And my second brother was really quiet. And younger brother, it was, like we're about five year, six year difference, see. So...

RP: He was the baby.

SI: Yeah.

RP: How about your sister?

SI: Sister, well... you know, guys on Terminal Island, you know, like they, they weren't too much into girls. There were a few people that was dating girls. But most of 'em just... they didn't care too much about girls. And that's how we were brought up.

RP: What did they care about?

SI: Like, well, mostly just having fun. I mean, doing the things like... because most of us didn't have no car, nobody to drive, and Dad was working every day and Mother was working every day. So the only time, only time that Dad and the family used to get together was on Fourth of July. And my oldest brother, he was working in the cannery and going fishing, so he used to make a little money. So he used to buy all the fireworks and that's the only time that Dad used to go out with us, to shoot fireworks at, at the beach. So that was, thing that we kind of remember looking forward to. And now of course Christmas and New Year's. Christmas, the fisherman... there were a few of these, well, there were a lot of bachelors, you know, fisherman. And some of them used to come to our house and eat with us. And I can remember a guy named Murakami, he was our cook on one of the boat. So he used to come and he used to cook for us. And he used to make turkeys and then New Year's time he helped Mother make all these... it was the only time that we actually enjoyed eating at home. Of course we ate... not well, but we used to eat a lot of that... the fishermen used to bring in fish for us so that's what we used to eat was mostly fish every day. Most of, most of the time anyway.

RP: And rice too?

SI: Oh, yeah. And rice... and for that reason why, we used to have these bachelors come to the house and they'd eat with us. And Dad used to loan 'em money and you know. And then... so, for that reason, New Year's time they'd bring tons of rice for us to eat the rest of the year. I don't know why sugar. They used to bring sugar. I remember they're bringing a whole sack full of sugar and then rice. And so we used to have rice for the rest of the year, which was good, you know. But I remember it was, from what I've heard now, when the war began, a lot of people, they couldn't go out and work because there was no fishing, nobody was working, and I heard a lot of people were having a hard time. And you know, this guy, I don't know why they never ever mention his name or they didn't care or what, I don't know. But a guy named Murakami, he used to own a market. And he used to, he was allowed to go to the market and bring food and they used to pass it around to the people for free. That's what I heard. It was amazing, you know, that he did this. And to this day I can't understand why people don't recognize him. But that's, that's what I heard he was doing.

RP: Tell us a little bit about your father. What type of a person was he as a father and...

SI: He was, he didn't say much. He didn't talk to us too much. But, from what Mother used to tell us, he was really good at heart. He used to loan money to these fisherman and he never records it down. So he never got it back to begin with, I mean, he was that kind of person. And anybody that comes over to the house, he invite them to eat. That was the kind of person he was, my dad was. He didn't say too much, like I said before.

RP: Was he very, very... was he a disciplinarian with you kids or...

SI: Not really. But we knew when he got mad and Mother used to take care of us pretty well. And most of the people on Terminal Island, they were pretty well disciplined because they were brought up the old ways. So, well, there's a couple things that Mom used to tell us is like, "When you go visit somebody, don't ever go empty-handed." And then my dad used to tell me that, he says, "When you say, talk about somebody, don't say anything bad about 'em. If you're gonna say something bad about it, don't say it." So it was... that was the two things that I can still remember that he told us. And Mom told us, I says like, what they call tebura. Tebura means empty-handed. So anyway, that was the two things that I still remember.

<Begin Segment 5>

RP: Your, can you give us your mother's name?

SI: Wakaye.

RP: And what do you, what about her do you remember?

SI: Not much. I mean, she was very gentle lady. And for one reason why we don't see them is because she was working every day.

RP: Where did she work?

SI: And a lot of time...

RP: I'm sorry, where did she work?

SI: At the cannery, fish cannery. And then to this day, you know, like, we used to... my oldest brother used to love to cook. So he used to cook for us and of course we never used to eat meat. That was... of course, meat was... why, I don't know. My brother used to go out and buy weenie. He used to make weenie and tomato sauce and onion. That's... that and the two thing that I can remember was he used to make that and spaghetti. He used to love to make spaghetti. And that was a treat for us. And once in a while we used to have hamburger. And I'd... but we'd cook it with, hamburger with onion and put it over the rice. So... but one thing, though another thing that Dad told us was, "You don't leave the table unless you eat everything on your plate." And not even one grain of rice, you cannot leave there. And that was the thing of the, I guess it's, most families were like that. That's how we, that's how we were disciplined.

RP: Do you know which cannery that your mom worked in? There was three or four of them.

SI: [Shakes head.] There was a...

RP: Van de Kamp's and...

SI: Well, I really don't know which one because when... the only way that Mother used to know which cannery that she used to go to work was by the whistle. One for this, two for that, three for that. And there was about, oh, I would say about half a dozen canneries over there. Yeah.

RP: So whenever the, whenever the fish came in, that's when they, when they'd blow the whistle?

SI: When the fish come in that particular cannery and when the whistle blows, it doesn't make any difference whether it's night, day or what. So they used to pack up and go work.

<Begin Segment 6>

RP: Tell us about where you went to school in Terminal Island. Grammar school?

SI: Yeah.

RP: Where?

SI: It was right on the island there. In fact it was, it was only a block away from where I lived, so...

RP: Was that the Mildred...

SI: Obar Elementary all right.

RP: What was school like for you?

SI: It was good. I mean, you know, we had no problem. It was just all... and one good thing about it was all Japanese, you know. And we have a few Caucasian kids. But mostly... and then of course we all spoke Japanese then. Oh, you don't let any teacher catching you speaking Japanese in our school ground. That was the thing about it. But, that's all we used was to do was speak Japanese at home and school. And frankly, I'll tell you, when I went in the army, I had a hell of a time speaking English because... and in camp, too. We were all in one area so naturally we all spoke Japanese, right? So anyway, well... in a way it was good for me, in a way not so good. Because being an interpreter when I was in the army, you had to know how to speak pretty well English. I know a lot of Japanese but... but anyway, that worked out pretty good.

RP: So what would happen if the teacher caught you speaking Japanese at school?

SI: Well, in one case I... I saw this guy got a spanking. And one time I saw this guy was, "I will not speak Japanese," and you gotta write it on the blackboard. And that was the two incident, thing that I experienced on the, while going to school. Otherwise...

RP: Were there, were there any teachers that you had that you remember fondly?

SI: Well, the only teacher's name... there's a couple of 'em. There's a lady named Reagan. I think she was in the fourth grade. And there was another lady named Burbank. It was the two ladies that I can remember. These teachers were pretty good. I mean, they were pretty, like in the old days, not the schoolteacher like you see now, but they were pretty strict.

RP: Were they always Caucasian teachers?

SI: Oh, yeah. All of 'em was.

RP: Now, you picked up Japanese from, from your parents?

SI: Oh, yeah. We used to go to Japanese school, too.

RP: And that was on the island?

SI: Yeah.

RP: And where was it located?

SI: Well, there was two church. There was one Japanese church. In fact, well, no, there was... yeah, I guess it was two Japanese. One is a Christian church and one was a Buddhist church, I mean, a Buddhist school and then the church is over there, too. We went to the Christian school for... but most of the, like I said before, we had, we go to school and then come back and then after school we went to a Japanese school for a couple of hours.

RP: What was Japanese school like for you?

SI: Kinda like fun, you know. [Laughs]

RP: How?

SI: Well, anyway we, we got to the point where we learned a lot of... it just kind of come natural because we were all speaking Japanese. So...

<Begin Segment 7>

RP: Did you have other activities or events that you did at Japanese school?

SI: Not really. The only thing is, see, my dad put us through kendo, which is your fencing. And all three of us used to go to our kendo practice.

RP: Your older brothers?

SI: Oh yeah, two... I got two more older brothers.

RP: And the kendo practice was held at the, at the church?

SI: No. It was at the... we had what they call a community center like. It's a hall.

RP: Fisherman's Hall?

SI: Well, I guess you can call it Fisherman Hall because they used to have all the meetings and shows and that's where we used to practice every week.

RP: So when did you first start taking kendo?

SI: I can't remember. Like, I was, must have been about five or six years old. And I did it for about maybe, about eight years, nine years. So, in fact... well, this is after, but I met my kendo teacher in Japan.

RP: The kendo teacher you had in Terminal Island?

SI: Pardon?

RP: The kendo teacher from Terminal Island?

SI: Oh yeah, yeah. He was a dentist and also a teacher. He was pretty good. In fact, not to brag too much, but we were, Terminal Island kendo group was probably about the best on, in Southern California. I mean, I think... we used to go to all these contests in different cities and we were always at top. That I can say.

RP: Terminal Island excelled at baseball, too.

SI: Yeah, uh-huh.

RP: You had a, you had a good team.

SI: Yeah, the Skippers was the, the older group. And they were pretty good, too, they... that was the only entertainment for the older people to go and see baseball every Sunday, most every Sunday anyway.

RP: And the, the field was on Terminal Island?

SI: Oh, yeah, uh-huh.

RP: Where was it?

SI: In fact it was right near the Christian church. Then afterwards they, they built another Christian church which was a Baptist church and which is, it's in conjunction with the other church. And the other church, the older church part, they, that's where the Japanese school was. And we used to go there and then for the services was at the other newer building. And I can't remember, the guy named Reverend Nagano was, used to come down from east, East L.A, which was on Second... remember I told you Second and Evergreen? And I remember, I still remember he used to come at evening and we used to go there for something, kind of like a club like. And he was teaching us like Morse code and stuff like that. I mean, it was just little things with the kids, liked to do. And I still remember him.

RP: So who did you hang around with when, as a kid on Terminal Island? Was...

SI: Well, just mostly the neighbor kid, neighborhood. And then we used to go like summertime, we used to go to what they call Dead Man's Island. And we used to go out there and we used to make our own pup tents with gunnysacks. And we used to spend the summer over there. So that was fun. And that's where I first learned how to swim. The kid next door, he threw me in the water and I had to swim. But...

RP: So how far was Dead Man's Island from Terminal Island?

SI: Oh, I would say about a mile, mile and a half.

RP: So you, so you swam over to the island?

SI: Oh, no, no. See, in those days the island was connected. They already connected the Dead Man's Island onto Terminal Island. It was a government land, but they let us go there and pitched and camped. And the immigration was on the far, furthest end of the island. And then this was before they built the prison over there. And so we used to go camping over there and it was a lotta fun. So...

RP: How about Brighton Beach?

SI: Brighton Beach was a little farther. Even, we still used to walk all the way. We used to have what they call First Beach, Second Beach, and then Brighton Beach. So in those days I think... I wonder, I wonder if there was the airfield over there then. I can't remember that. But anyway, Brighton was beyond that, right next to Long Beach. Actually, part of it was in Long Beach.

RP: Where... that was kind of a social area, a kinda of a place for recreation. I heard there was dances there, too, and other activities? Do you remember that?

SI: No, I don't think so, no. [Laughs] In those days, you worked as a teenager, too. The only socializing that we used to do was in school. But that was during the day.

<Begin Segment 8>

RP: So you were out... your older brothers kind of took care of the rest of the kids while the parents were at work?

SI: Oh yeah, yeah. My oldest brother was pretty good at, you know... he used to cook for us. But we used to take turns making rice and, but as far as the dishes, my oldest brother used to make like hamburger, hamburger okazu and spaghetti. The only thing I can remember was Dad and spaghetti and weenie...

RP: American food.

SI: Yeah, right.

RP: Did you say your brother was a fisherman at that time?

SI: The oldest brother, no, he was still going to school then. But summertime he used to go, go on a boat and did some fishing.

RP: Did you ever go out on a boat?

SI: Oh, yeah.

RP: Tell us about it. Tell us about your, your...

SI: Well, on a jig boat we used to go on... during the summertime, barracuda used to run. And used to go fishin' over, down what they call kelp, horseshoe kelp. [Coughs] Excuse me. And then, then we used to fish over there. Get up 4 o'clock in the morning and fish. Then gotta come back before ten anyway.

RP: And, just barracuda huh?

SI: Yeah. [Coughs.] Excuse me. But my second brother never, I don't think he ever went fishing. He was kinda like, not weak, but he used to get carsick. And maybe, I guess he was, he must have been afraid of he might get seasick. I actually get seasick once in a while but, it was okay.

RP: You mentioned baseball, the Skippers. Did you also play baseball at school and...

SI: Yeah, we did. And with the younger crowd we used to play... there was, there must have been at least about a half a dozen teams that we used to play against. That was mostly the only... never played football though. Mostly just baseball.

RP: Now, your father's barbershop was the only barbershop on the island?

SI: Oh, no. There was him... there was one on upper Tuna Street and one over there so there must have been two more others, yeah.

RP: So, you lived behind the barbershop?

SI: Yeah. Right. Our house... the property was the, the cannery used to own that property. But the house, from what I can recall, was our own. And I think, I might have been mistaken, but after the war I think she received two thousand dollars for the house or something like that. Anyway...

RP: Who? Your... who received the two thousand dollars?

SI: That I don't know. But the house wasn't there anymore.

RP: So how often would you go across on the ferry to San Pedro as a kid?

SI: What do you mean how often? Every day, it was school days.

RP: Well, when you went to junior high school.

SI: Right. Monday through Friday, yeah.

RP: Uh-huh. And where did you go to school there?

SI: I went to Richard Henry Dana Junior High School. And my brother went to San Pedro High School, two of my brothers.

<Begin Segment 9>

RP: Now you, you went through grammar school with all Japanese.

SI: Oh, yeah.

RP: And now it was more mixed in junior high school?

SI: Yeah, the majority of the people in San Pedro was like, there was three ethnic group like Italians, the Slovenians, and the Japanese. And we got along pretty well with the Italian guys, not so much with the Slovenian guys. Why, I don't know. See, most, most of those people in San Pedro, too, was fishermen. And, but the fishing fleet was all in San Pedro and I would say 90 percent, 99 percent of the fishing boat was on Terminal Island was Japanese.

RP: Well, what was junior high school like?

SI: It was okay. We... there they weren't too many, too strict about speaking Japanese. And, but I tell you, that first year... you know Japanese people are brought up, like I say, different because of the fact that... don't lose from other people. So we used to study a lot and you find there was a great number of Japanese in the honor group. Each year, if you, graduation you have so many, if you get so many, not points but... but there was, a lot of Japanese kids were in the honor, honor group. So then --

RP: Were you... sorry.

SI: -- yeah, and then soon after that when the war started, of course we were probably halfway through eighth grade. So, but in camp we wrote to our school in San, in San Pedro and then they sent us books. And so we finished the eighth grade and the ninth grade in camp. So when the school really started I think we were in the ninth grade already. But we skipped most of eighth grade because, you know.

RP: Tell us about your first job that you ever had.

SI: My first job when we came out of camp, we were working in a warehouse in Wilmington. And we did that for, oh, a few months. And I don't know whether we got fired or what. Anyway, let's see, that was 1945... '46, so I must have worked there for at least six month and then I think we got either laid off or we quit or what. Anyway we, we were out of job and then, I don't know how some of these people find out there was work in Delano, like in central California. And then pruning plum trees and so we went over there and then we worked there for a few month. And then that was during the 1946. And then soon after that, job was finished and we came home. And then, 'course, there was no job. I mean, it was hard finding because I was only what, seventeen? And, so then anyway, they were recruiting people up in Oregon. So we went up there to work in the farm. So I was there from, it was during, I remember, summertime. And we did odd jobs, picking potatoes and hoeing weeds, and stuff like that. It was, it was okay. It was a job. So anyway, I turned eighteen while I was up there and my brother called me up and... he sent me a letter saying that, "Hey, your draft board called and said you gotta come in for a physical." Well, at the time I was traveling by bus. So I had no time to get down there. So I told him, I said, "Hey, call 'em up and tell 'em I'm visiting a sick aunt over there." So he did and had a referral, I mean... waited a couple month. Anyway, I came back home and then and I says... another call came in for my physical. So I went. I says, "I might as well join." So, I joined. So that's when I went in the army.

<Begin Segment 10>

RP: I'm just gonna backtrack, back to Terminal Island. Did you, do you recall the kenjinkai picnics?

SI: Who?

RP: The kenjinkai?

SI: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. We used to have that, yeah, right. It was all on Brighton Beach, we used to go there. And it was fun. It was just... can't recall too many things that we did, but we used to go to all the different kenjinkai ones. It was free drinks and stuff like that. So...

RP: What other picnics do you remember? Other areas?

SI: What?

RP: The other different kenjinkai picnics?

SI: Beside kenjinkai?

RP: Besides Wakayama.

SI: Well, Wakayama is a big... but they used to have what they call the village picnic, right, Taiji picnic, Tahara picnic. I don't know, I can't remember the other villages. They always have their own group picnic. So, that was fun because you get to go more than one time. So...

RP: Were there games and contests?

SI: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. But in grammar school we used to have Boys Days. And we used to have like, oh, I remember we used to, I remember we used to get on somebody's back and we used to go out and then hit other guy's balloon. They used to tie balloons on their mask and on the side. And whatever, get all the balloons out and they had to leave. It was fun. We have regular Boys Day in grammar school. And then we had... Girls Day, I can't remember having that. But on Boys Day we used to have a big holiday.

RP: In school?

SI: Yeah.

RP: Do you remember them flying the carp?

SI: Yeah, oh yeah. We used to have, all used to have that. Well, not all of 'em, but those people who can afford it. My dad used to put up a big pole up there that we used to fly ours. Yeah. We were one of the few fortunate people that had the luxury of... in fact, we were one of the very few people that used to have refrigerator. In those days it used to be just ice box. It was this old ice box, you could put the ice on the top. But that, we were part of, like I say, few fortunate people that bought a refrigerator.

RP: Did your family have a car, too?

SI: We had a car. It was oh, Oakland. Never, ever heard of Oakland?

RP: Oakland?

SI: It's a four door... it was made by Oldsmobile. I don't know what ever happened to the car though. And I remember he must have taken the car up to, you know, when we evacuated from... to this day I don't know what he did with the car. But it was in very top condition because his buddy was a, a fisherman, was a mechanic. And every week he used to come and he used to monkey around with the car and, you know, to this day I can't, I can't understand how he ever did that. He loves to go fishing. I mean, lake fishing. And from Terminal Island they used to go all the way to Arrowhead.

RP: Arrowhead.

SI: To fish.

RP: Your father, too?

SI: Yeah, father and, and that, that mechanic.

RP: This mechanic.

SI: Yeah.

RP: Did you ever go on those trips?

SI: No, never did.

RP: Those were little private man trips?

SI: Right. Just the two of them used to go all the way... to this day I'm sure they came through like Orange, Olive, and Santa Ana Canyon Road, and all the way up there. And amazing how... in those days, what, you can only go 35 miles an hour?

RP: So did you ever drive in the car?

SI: Did what?

RP: Did you ever go in the car?

SI: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Dad used to take us maybe once every month, once every other month we, they used to come down to Santa Anna because we used to have our friend over there. And I can remember that we used to get, oh, we buy these coconut on the corner, where they sell these coconut. And then we used to peel those things out. Yeah, we used to have a field day for the day.

RP: Did you ever go to Little Tokyo during the year?

SI: Before the war?

RP: Before the war.

SI: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Whenever they have like funeral or... very seldom though. But that, like, Dad and them, they used to go there then, we loved them to go there because when they come back they always bring you a box of sushi. That was a treat. But, yeah, because he had friends from the old, the old country, and they used to go visit over there. But we never used to go.

<Begin Segment 11>

RP: Did your mother or father have a creative side, a hobby or an art that they practiced?

SI: My dad was a cactus lover. And he used to have, it was a small area maybe about, oh, I would say not more than this. And then there was an entryway and then both sides he used to grow cactus. Why cactus? That's what we said. There was no room for planting anything. So, that was the only hobby that he used to have, growing cactus.

RP: Cactus on Terminal Island.

SI: Yeah.

RP: And your mom?

SI: No.

RP: No music or art or...

SI: No, no. My sister used to take violin lesson. But aside from that...

RP: How about you?

SI: Well, the only thing I did was kendo. And according to my sensei, he says, well, I'm pretty good, but he says... so I almost made a rank of first degree black. But he tells me I'm too small. I was only like, maybe like 5 feet. I was small then. And anyway, that sensei was telling me that, when I saw him in Japan. But, like I said, they... our group was one of the strongest.

RP: You, you toured all over the, all over the Los Angeles...

SI: Oh, yeah. Well, mostly, not so much around L.A. area though. There were, there were, we used to have tournaments, Long Beach, Wilmington, Gardena, Norwalk. That's all I can remember. We, we used to go all the way up to, like, Guadalupe, San Jose, Lodi, Stockton, and then Sacramento. And the teacher used to take us. There were all these, well, he selected group of people, we used to get in his car.

RP: How many usually? What size group would you have?

SI: The...

RP: What size group of kids would go?

SI: You mean the age group?

RP: How many?

SI: Oh, I would say at least a half a dozen.

RP: Tell us what, what was competition like? Did you have a specific time period where you...

SI: Well, yeah. Whenever they have a competition like that there's usually five men team. And then you, you fight against all these different group. Then whoever rack up the most point is the winner. And they give you one of them flags.

RP: There's a referee, too, that...

SI: What's that?

RP: A referee or a judge that gives...

SI: Oh yeah, yeah. Well, you can tell like if there's five of us, five of them, if it went four of them, you rack up that much points, four points, right? So you get another group and then we fight. So...

RP: And you get points for hitting an opponent in a certain place?

SI: Oh yeah. Head, side, and then arm. Not so much here. [Points to chest] There is, you could, but very few people used to go for that. Mostly for head and you know...

RP: And your, your swords or fencing, what was that made out of? Was it bamboo?

SI: Bamboo. Yeah.

RP: So did... when you got hit pretty hard...

SI: Yeah, well, you're still wearing mask, too, but you know like if they miss, they're comin' down with all their might, right? And mostly sometime they get, they'll come like this and you'll hit your side here. And mostly arm.

RP: Now, when you got to Manzanar, did you continue practicing kendo?

SI: No.

RP: There was a kendo place there.

SI: Well, for one thing, I don't know whatever happened to our, our equipment. We just lost it when we evacuated from Terminal Island. And those things are not cheap. So we had three set of 'em. All three of us used to... so, and the other stuff I don't know where it went to. It just, lotta stuff, some of the stuff that we, I think Dad somehow or another stored some of the stuff. We got it back after the war. I remember seeing those things in boxes in the garage. So anyway, I never inquired about that after that.

<Begin Segment 12>

RP: Can you tell us how you heard about the bombing of Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941?

SI: How did I find out?

RP: Yeah.

SI: I think we were going to school or someplace. Where... in fact, I can remember I was in, at the ferry landing when I heard about it. And then of course we couldn't go, we couldn't leave the island after that. So...

RP: Do you remember soldiers patrolling the island after December 7th?

SI: Not really. No, there was no soldier. I don't think there was ever any soldier patrolling the area.

RP: Do you remember how your family felt about what was gonna happen to you?

SI: Well, not really. I mean, it was... we were, some talk about why Japan bombed Pearl Harbor -- 'cause you what, I was only fourteen years old there then. To me it didn't seem real, but it was nothing to talk about.

RP: There were many Issei fishermen and other community leaders who were taken by the FBI.

SI: All of 'em. All of 'em. The only people that they didn't, they didn't take was like my dad and a few of the businesspeople, they didn't take. All the fishermen was all, they were all taken away. And I think most of 'em went to Santa Fe, New Mexico. But my dad, when we went to... evacuated from Terminal Island, went to the hostel, that's when they came and took my dad. And then from there he was in Tujunga, detention camp over there. And from there he went to Bismarck, North Dakota. And from there he went to Santa Fe, New Mexico. Then he came back to camp.

RP: How long was it between the time your dad was taken from the hostel and when you saw him at Manzanar again?

SI: I really can't tell you exact time or, or month, or when he came back to camp. But eventually he was telling us... that he was saying Santa Fe, New Mexico and then came to Manzanar.

RP: Why do you think he was taken by the FBI?

SI: Taken? To this day, I don't think he ever knew why he was taken because, he was there way before. Like 19'... early 1900, I guess. Because my first brother was born in 1924. So...

RP: Was he involved in any other community activities?

SI: No.

RP: No. Just a barber?

SI: Just a barber.

RP: Who knows?

SI: What?

RP: Who knows.

SI: Yeah.

RP: Do you remember the day that he was taken away? Were you there?

SI: Well, the time they came after him was, let's see, we were in... no, not really. Because all I can remember was in the first part of April we were... pack our stuff and went to Manzanar. That was, I think either around the first or the second or, you know, of April.

RP: And he was taken just before you left for Manzanar?

SI: Pardon? Oh yeah, yeah, right.

RP: Uh-huh. You said he was sent to Tujunga?

SI: Tujunga, yeah.

RP: Did you have... there were many, many families who told me that they were able to go visit their father for a short time.

SI: That I don't know.

RP: You don't know if you...

SI: You know, like I said before, there's nobody used to have a car. So, it was almost impossible for anybody to, you know, if their parents are... unless they ask a friend or somebody that used to, had a car. But nobody on Terminal... mostly, I would say like I can only count on my one hand the people that used to have a car. They, I remember Charlie used to have a car.

RP: Hamasaki.

SI: Yeah. Well, see, he actually, became my cousin. He married my mother's cousin from Japan.

RP: Right. Your mother's parents were also at Terminal Island. Did they stay there? Were they there during, when the war broke out? The Yoshidas?

SI: Yeah. What do you mean they stayed?

RP: They were there when the war broke out?

SI: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

RP They didn't go back to Japan.

SI: Right. They were all, they were about to go to Japan but the war started and they couldn't go. So...

RP: And where did they end up? Did they go with you?

SI: Same. Manzanar, yeah.

RP: They went to Manzanar.

SI: Yeah.

RP: Did they end up at the hostel, too?

SI: Yeah. Yeah, they all... we all went over there and from there we went to camp. And they were in Block, if I can remember, they were in Block 11. Why 11? But there was, part of the Block 11 group was from Terminal Island. And then mostly from 9, 10, and part of 11.

<Begin Segment 13>

RP: So you were given forty-eight hours to leave the island. I think it was February 24th or 28th.

SI: Or something like that, yeah.

RP: Yeah. What else can you tell us about that, that period of time on the island?

SI: Not much. The only thing was everything was, everything was in chaos. All I remember was Dad used to tell me, he says, we used to have... Dad used to collect records, Japanese records. And there must be at least five hundred records there. We had, Dad said, take this and go to the... they used to have a place where you burn stuff. And he says, "Take it over there and throw 'em away," he says. So, throw all the records away.

RP: You did, you did...

SI: All of 'em. I did, yeah. Yeah. So, like I said, there was not much to tell except everything was just to a point where it was, people didn't know what to do. And to this day I don't know, you gotta give these people from L.A. area a lot of credit. Because they came and took everybody off Terminal Island. I mean, there was no buses. And, like I said...

RP: These were Caucasian people or Japanese?

SI: No, Japanese people came from L.A. area. I don't know where. Maybe from all over other, every, where it was not restricted area. But they came and took every one of 'em. I mean, amazing, it was... I thought about it. I says, wow, you know... like myself, too, I was picked up from these guys here. And then they must have done that to all the rest of the people. And then I guess they didn't care where they went as long as it's a place to stay.

RP: Off the island.

SI: Yeah. So I'm sure they went to Norwalk, Gardena, and different areas like I said.

RP: What was, what was the hostel like?

SI: [Laughs] That's another... it was like a barnyard. I mean, it was a big building and room, maybe, I would say five times as big as this. There must have been about thirty or forty family in one area. I mean, it was no privacy, you know what I mean? What, what else can you do?

RP: The building, was it formerly a school or a church or do you know what it was before?

SI: That I don't know. It was, it was a huge big room. That's all I can remember.

RP: And did you eat in one large room?

SI: That I don't know either. I don't know whether there was a cafeteria or what. But, soon after... well, I think I went to school there for about, about two months. Yeah.

RP: Which school?

SI: Belvedere Junior High School. See, Evergreen was a cut-off line. If you live on the east side you had to go either Stevenson or Belvedere, and I ended up in Belvedere. But if you on the other side, the school was another school which was closer. Well, we couldn't go there because we were on the, the other side. But, who cares, you know.

RP: So, where did you have to assemble when you went to Manzanar? Do you remember the place that you met to go to Manzanar?

SI: No, they pick us up at the hostel.

RP: Who?

SI: Tell you what, I don't know. [Laughs] So anyway, I think we went on a, on a train.

RP: You went to Union Station, or...

SI: That I don't know. So the only thing we had to carry was our suitcase anyway. So...

RP: Do you remember anything about your train trip to Manzanar?

SI: No. Not a thing.

<Begin Segment 14>

RP: This is tape two of a continuing interview with Cabbie Iwasaki. And Cabbie, we were just kind of following your journey up to Manzanar. And you were telling us where you were originally put in the, in the camp. Where was that?

SI: It was Block 6. I don't know which block it was, but anyway, they throw us, two family in one room. And then we found out next day that most of the Terminal Island people was in Block 9 and 10. So we just took our stuff and then we went down. And the family that was staying with us they, they went Block 10. And then we found a room in Block 9, which was the furthest one which is Block 9-13-4. That was our address on the... so that's where we settled for the remainder of the time we spent over there.

RP: Uh-huh. What were your first impressions of the camp when you arrived in the days after?

SI: Well, not very much. I says, like I'm pretty frank about my language myself. But it was... it was pretty bad. I mean, you know, it was, what? There was seven of us in one little room, no partition, nothing. There was no tarpaper or nothing. It was just, just a room. And the floor was bare, there was nothing on the floor. And when the wind blows we used put stuff in all these cracks so that wind doesn't blow in. We were actually right next to the break, firebreak, which was the worst place to be at. But, because we couldn't be choosy because it was the only room that was there. And anyway, that was... my first impression was, "What a shitty place." [Laughs] Anyway, what can you do? We're like, hey. It was afterward that I thought about, oh yeah... I was in the service. I say, well, wait 'til we get overseas. I'm gonna show these whiteys. [Laughs] 'Cause without us they were, they were, they can't do the work. But it was okay. These officers was pretty nice guys. They're young officers. And we got, got along pretty well. I'm kinda like a rebel like. Like we do interrogation work over there, right, with the returning prisoner of war from the China and Russia. That's the kind of work I was doing.

RP: Uh-huh. The camp was still being constructed when you arrived?

SI: Oh, very much so. Yeah. They even... remember went to help some of these people on the other side of the firebreak and in fact, that was the day when I saw this guy came on a pickup was shot. And I, from what I heard, that he was too close to the fence and the guard shot him. And that was the only thing I remember the early part of the camp life, huh.

RP: When you moved into your barrack in block nine, were all the windows in and the roof was all installed and there were other people who said that they moved in early and their...

SI: There was nothing there. The window was there, yeah. But, but there was no side tarpaper, no roofing, no floors. It was just bare. We did all that. I mean, my brothers, they did the flooring after, after everything got settled down. I did the roofing with the roof crew. And, and we're making a whole eight dollars a month. [Laughs]

RP: Right. And then a crew, another Terminal Island crew also put the plasterboard in the, in the rooms?

SI: Yeah, yeah.

RP: Did you do any of that, too?

SI: That I didn't do. The only thing I can remember doing was the roof. I was in the roofing crew.

RP: On just your block or, or...

SI: Oh no, all of it.

RP: You, you went through the whole camp?

SI: All the camp, right.

RP: Oh. And you did that in the summertime when you were out of school?

SI: No. Yeah, yeah, in fact, I can't remember when I did it. But I'm sure we were still going to school. And to carry that thing up the ladder, I tell you, that's a one hell of a trek. I don't know how many, how many pounds that thing was. But, you know, those rolls, you carry on your shoulder, you gotta get up on the ladder, I tell you. There's no such thing as fork lift or anything like that, right? Yeah.

RP: You put, you just put down the roofing paper?

SI: Yeah, right, tarpaper. Yeah.

RP: Tarpaper. And then you nailed it in place?

SI: Oh yeah. That I can remember, yeah.

KP: Did you use tar to seal the seams or...

SI: What?

KP: Tar to seal the seams?

SI: Gee, I don't know whether we did that or not. All we can do is carry that step and that thing up there and you know...

RP: How many, how many members of the roofing crew did you have?

SI: There must be at least ten, twelve people in our group. And we, we used to do about, oh, three buildings a day. It was pretty interesting then.

KP: Can we get you up there to work? We might be building some more barracks.

SI: What?

KP: We might be building some more barracks. Can we get you up there to roof it for us?

SI: I can't understand what.

RP: Can you roof? If we put up some new barracks at Manzanar will you roof 'em for us?

SI: [Laughs] You gotta pay me a lotta money, more than eight dollars a month.

RP: How about sixteen dollars a month?

SI: That was, that's how much the, the professional was getting over there, sixteen dollars a month.

RP: No, the professionals got nineteen.

SI: Oh, it was nineteen? Well... somebody was, I know, was getting sixteen dollars.

RP: Sixteen, right.

SI: I was getting, I know I was getting eight dollars a month.

RP: Just eight?

SI: Yeah.

RP: There was another, a twelve dollar a month level, too.

SI: Was it? Maybe I was getting twelve. Anyway, as... in fact, I think my first job was a, I was a messenger boy.

RP: Really?

SI: Yeah.

RP: What did you deliver?

SI: You know, that I don't know. All I did was the lady tell me, okay you take this to so and so block. And I remember going all the way to Block 36 which was the end of the, the camp. And I used to remember delivering stuff over there. Why, I don't know. I mean, I didn't care who I delivered to, but...

RP: That was your first job?

SI: Yeah.

RP: And then you got the roofing job?

SI: Yeah.

RP: Huh.

<Begin Segment 15>

SI: Then after that, soon after the roofing was finished, I was a, I was in the oil tanker group. And there was four of us. Then we used to put oil, the cooking oil, into these tanks for all the camp. Then I graduated from that and I was in the food delivery, which was the best job we ever had.

RP: Why?

SI: Well because we used to have all this free food, just take it home, fruits and milk. In fact, we got caught one time. [Laughs] Well, you know, what. We're in the warehouse and we're loading these stuff like that. Oh, I'll take some home, huh? But they didn't say anything.

RP: Who caught you?

SI: Huh?

RP: Who caught you?

SI: Some white guys over there. [Laughs] But they were, they were the administration people.

RP: So that's where all the sugar was disappearing to, huh? [Laughs]

SI: No. But there was no, not very many people did cooking at home, I mean, in the barrack. Because the only thing they have was a pot-bellied stove. And...

RP: Some people got hotplates, too, though.

SI: That I don't know. We didn't, we didn't.

RP: So you were on a food delivery crew?

SI: Yeah, yeah.

RP: Uh-huh. And, so what did you deliver?

SI: What?

RP: What kind of foods did you deliver?

SI: Oh, anything that was on the list. Like certain block they, they do have a list of all the stuff and then we just stack 'em up in one area and then we used to deliver it to the people in different camp, different barracks. And so it was a good job 'cause the only thing good about it was we used to eat good. Where, like lunchtime we go to certain kitchen, they know they gonna feed us real good, steak and whatever.

KP: So you were delivering to the mess halls?

SI: Yeah.

KP: Okay, and, and how, how many deliveries would you make per day to a mess hall? Just one, or...

SI: No, no. We used to deliver... I guess we did most of it in one day. 'Cause they, you know like... it wasn't, it didn't take too long to... the only time it took us long was to put it on the truck.

KP: So you'd go to every mess hall?

SI: Every mess hall.

RP: In one day?

SI: I think so. I can't really...

KP: Was it one delivery per mess hall per day?

SI: Oh, no, no.

KP: Sometimes two deliveries per day?

SI: Yeah, right. So...

RP: So did you guys have to unload everything or did you...

SI: Oh yeah. We used to unload everything. Yeah.

RP: You didn't have help from any of the people in the mess hall?

SI: No, no. There was about four of us. Well, some of these places was bad because some, some had platform so we just dump it over there. That was a good job. For eight dollars a month, hey, I tell you. I think it's either eight or twelve dollars, I don't know. And that's when I, my mother caught me smoking. [Laughs.]

RP: Oh, okay. What happened?

SI: Nothing, he just told me that, "Hey, you know, Susumu," he says, "You smoke, huh?" And I can't say no because he might have either saw me or somebody told him. And then I found out later that she was in a beauty parlor which was one of these, one of those little buildings in the middle, right? And then the mess hall was over here.

RP: Oh, you were smoking while you were... [laughs].

SI: Well, that was okay.

RP: Was that the first time you smoked was in camp?

SI: Pardon?

RP: Was that the first time you smoked, in camp?

SI: Yeah. Then I smoked part of the time when I was in the army. Then I quit. Well, I didn't quit actually. In fact, I smoked until I came out of the army. Because I had a heart attack.

RP: Another thing that happened a little bit around Manzanar was gambling. Did, did you ever observe people gambling or...

SI: That I don't know. We were too young yet. I was only, what, fourteen, fifteen then.

RP: Did you play any card games at all?

SI: No.

RP: No?

SI: Not in camp.

RP: Uh-huh.

SI: I learned most of my bad habits when I was in the army.

<Begin Segment 16>

RP: How about... there were charges that some of the mess hall cooks were brewing up sake and other things?

SI: Oh, yeah. [Laughs] They were --

RP: Did you, did you see that?

SI: No, I didn't see it but most of the stuff was underground. I mean, like they, they used to build, dug a hole under the barrack. And they used to make it into kind of like a clubhouse. And I heard, from what I heard on it that that's where they used to make their rice wine. So anyway, I never, I never saw one, but...

RP: Did you hear about the, the charges about sugar disappearing in the camp? Did you ever hear about that?

SI: No. No. Even when we were passing off food stuff, nothing like that ever happened. I mean, like sugars or stuff like that was never, you know. And, that, that's the first time I heard about...

RP: There was one gentleman who was, his name was Harry Ueno and he was in Block, I think he lived in Block 22 but he was the head of the mess hall workers union and he accused two Caucasian staffpeople of taking sugar and meat away.

SI: Oh, is that right? That I don't know.

RP: But then we've talked to other people who, who believe it was the Terminal Island guys who might have been taking sugar home with them or something else.

SI: What are they gonna do at home?

RP: I don't know.

SI: Hey. Nobody drinks, I mean, there's no coffee. You can only drink so much. But I never heard of that one.

RP: There were many people, I don't want to say many -- but there were people in the camp who looked at the Terminal Island group, kind of kept their distance because they always said they were very "Japanesey," or too "Japanesey."

SI: Well, not really, because we all... the Terminal Island people seemed to be more cliquish. And they don't associate with the other, what, what we call yosou no hito, which is outside people. And so whenever there was any... well, and they, the other people always thought that Terminal Island people was tougher than the others, and they were more or less sort of afraid of us. And because I, one incidence I had was I was coming, sit... we walked some friends up to Block 36, coming back and we got corralled by some L.A. people. And one of this guy here was from, I think it was a Shonean boy. But anyway, I had an argument with him when we were playing baseball and he came up to me, he slapped me. And then at that time they found out that we were from Terminal Island. These guys all backed out. And of course they were afraid. We had sort of like a bad reputation. [Laughs]

RP: Well they, they had a special name for you. The Yogores.

SI: Well, Yogore is just a name of a group of guys, they were like basketball team and baseball team, and they were probably the second oldest group. The oldest was the Skippers. They still had the name "Skipper" in camp. And the Yogores came and there was another group, almost the same age, and then there was our group. And so there was at least about five different group of, you know, in our in camp. The Skipper Juniors was the youngest and we were the next.

RP: So five groups of Terminal Island boys...

SI: Yeah, uh-huh.

RP: Uh-huh.

<Begin Segment 17>

RP: So you don't remember any other incidences or situations where there were fights or...

SI: Not really. We, one time something happened. I really didn't know. But we, we all went to the camp, I mean, their camp. And we surrounded the whole barrack and the guy never came out. But, hey, we were just there just to be, say what was going on, you know. So anyway, after a while, we just all left home, came back to the camp, our barrack. But that was the only thing I can remember as far as... and then of course we had the riot. Which --

RP: What can you tell us about that?

SI: Not much except there was what, a group of, what they call the... oh, they call them Kibeis. And they were out beating up people for, for reasons I don't know. And I guess there were people that was collaborating with the, the authority. I didn't even know who they were but anyway, one of the rumor that came to our block was they were gonna come and beat up the police chief, which was, the guy was from Terminal Island.

RP: Higashi.

SI: Yeah, okay. You know about it.

RP: Yeah.

SI: Anyway, we all got our bats and then we patrolled the area. But nobody came. And they wouldn't dare come to Block 9. Because, like I say before, we had that particular reputation of being, you know...

RP: Tough.

SI: Tough guys. [Laughs] But any, any group... we had a group but we were, some of the guys in our group were pretty tough, tough guys. They weren't afraid to back out from any fighting. But anyway, we did that and nobody came. So, the biggest riot was we were, kids up there, we were, I don't know when it was but it was like we all went, I think it was somebody in the jail that they want to get out. Anyway, there was all these soldiers out there with their guns and we're out there in the very front line. I says, they're not watching and they say, "Eh, nothing gonna happen." So we all went back home. Then all of a sudden, man all hell broke loose. They start throwing tear gas and... but that was the extent of what I saw.

RP: So you left before the shooting occurred?

SI: Well, there was no shooting though.

RP: Oh, there was.

SI: Was there?

RP: Yes.

SI: But I know, I remember one of the guy died from tear gas or something.

RP: He was shot.

SI: Was he shot?

RP: Yeah, there were about thirteen people were shot and two died.

SI: No kidding?

RP: Yeah.

SI: No. Really?

RP: Really.

SI: Well, okay, it was, it was in Block 1 where things happened. And we all came back and all of a sudden, oh, clouds of smoke coming out of their end.

RP: But you went down there?

SI: Pardon?

RP: You were down there.

SI: Oh, I was down there. I was in the first line there. Good thing we left there when we did.

RP: So what was that like?

SI: Hey, you know, fourteen, fifteen years old kids were sitting in the front of the line just watching, you know. And, that was the extent of our involvement in that thing there. We just, we didn't know what was going on. So anyway, but after, after that, somebody told me there was only one guy got killed.

RP: One guy was killed initially and then another man died later at the hospital.

SI: Oh, is that right? That much I don't know.

RP: Do you remember the, across from your block was Block 3.

SI: Yeah, right.

RP: The Bainbridge Island people.

SI: Bainbridge, right.

RP: Do you remember how, what were relations like between your group and their group?

SI: Not really. They kept to themselves pretty much. The only thing that I remember was there was only, there was a couple of girls that was in our class. That was it. And she still comes to the reunion, one of 'em.

RP: Do you know who that is?

SI: I don't know her name but we used to call her "Genie with the light brown hair" 'cause she used to have brown hair. And then in our class we used to call her "Genie with the light brown hair."

<Begin Segment 18>

RP: Now I... you entered school at Manzanar, started at ninth grade there?

SI: Eighth grade.

RP: Eighth grade.

SI: Yeah.

RP: What was school like for you at Manzanar?

SI: I don't know, it was just a school. There was no teacher, we just read our books and did our thing whatever it was. And when, when the regular school started we were in the ninth grade already. In fact, we were the last class to graduate from Manzanar.

RP: Were there any, any of the teachers that stood out in your mind? That inspired you or impressed you or touched you?

SI: Well, the only teacher that I can think of right now is Miss Brown was our Spanish teacher. Fox was either Latin or some kind of teacher. Anyway, I think, was it Fox? Had the bad arm? And we used to give him a bad time when he was monitoring the study hall. And then, you know, I saw him in Japan. But of course he couldn't remember me. And I told him I was in Manzanar and he was one of our teacher. And so I asked him what he was doing here. He says, well, he's going up to northern Japan to teach, I guess, English, I guess. So that was, was kind of a surprising to me that he was there. This was right after the war ended. So I was surprised that these civilian teacher were allowed to go there. So anyway, that's where I met him.

RP: Do you have any favorite subjects in school?

SI: What?

RP: Did you have any, your favorite subject in school?

SI: Not really. I went through there like... there was a lot of subject that I wanted to take but they were, the class was full. And, in fact, in my, in my senior year I had four study period and then the vice principal came up to me and says, "You know, you're not supposed to have four study period." I says, "They got no more subject," I said. So anyways, he says, "Well, there's either choir or drama." "Hey," I says. So I settled with choir, right. So I took choir in the last year of my class. So, I wanted to take accounting, not accounting, what was it, bookkeeping or whatever. And that was full. And I had two years of Spanish. And of course English and History class. That was it.

RP: Were you involved in any school activities?

SI: No.

RP: Student activities?

SI: Not really. The only thing we, we performed one time at the auditorium, the choir. That was it.

RP: Who directed the choir?

SI: I think it was Frizzel. It might have been Frizzel. Yeah.

RP: What do you remember about Louie?

SI: Pardon?

RP: What do you remember about Mr. Frizzel?

SI: Not much. To me he was just the teacher, music teacher. And... so we, we were there just to be there. I remember the class being big. I mean, that choir group was real big.

RP: And what kind of voice did you have? Did you have a baritone or a soprano?

SI: Who cares, really?

RP: We were gonna ask you to sing.

SI: No. [Laughs] Well, I sing over here, you know, at the karaoke group.

RP: Yeah.

SI: But this lady here, she's a pretty good singer. So, that's how, that's how I met her. One day we were at one of the group singing and she was there and then I, not really, just a good friend now. So, I took her to karaoke class.

<Begin Segment 19>

RP: A short, a couple of months after the riot occurred at Manzanar, there was another very controversial event that happened. The "loyalty questionnaire"?

SI: Like what?

RP: Where the government had everybody over seventeen sign a, fill out a "loyalty questionnaire"?

SI: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

RP: Yes-yes, no-no.

SI: Yeah, yeah, right.

RP: And how did, tell me how that went down with your family and yourself.

SI: Well, most of my brothers and myself, we, I can't remember, but, my part... I didn't even ask my brother how they, they wrote down their answer. But I answered, if the enemy attacks the country will you defend the country? I said "yes." So that was one, one of the questions. Then on the other question was, will you, are you willing to go in the army? I said, "Hell no." I said, what? You in a... they put you in a concentration camp and they ask you to go in the army? "No," I says. But that question followed me all through my army career. Did you know that? Then, well, to move it out further, when I was in, well, I went to MIS school and they sent me... well in fact, I couldn't go overseas because I only had six month to serve. So I had signed up for eighteen month. In those days you had a choice of either eighteen month or three years or whatever. So I signed up for eighteen month. Then school took one year of my time. So only had a half a year. So the guy told me, he says, "No, you can't go overseas unless you sign up for another, extend your enlistment for another half year." So, which I did. So I went overseas. And then I was assigned to CIC. You know what the CIC is?

RP: Tell us.

SI: It's a Counterintelligence Corps. Okay, that was more like, I think, more like...

RP: CIA?

SI: CIA-like. Anyway, I was assigned there and then I served one year there. They found out my questionnaire was "no-yes." And so anyway, before that, thing came up. They wanted me to stay for another year. I says, "Hey, I already made my extension." "Oh, don't worry, we'll fix that up." So, like a damn fool, I, I extended my, enlist for another year, so it made me three years. So I says, "I thought they was gonna give me another stripe." They, they promised me another stripe. It never came. So anyway, they recalled me to headquarters and from there I came back to ATIS, which is the group where they assign all the linguists. And so the exec called me in and he says -- I still remember that guy's name. What's his... I can't think of it off the top of my head. So anyway, so he, he called me in and he says, "You know why you got recalled back?" I said, "No," I says, "I don't." "Well, in camp," he says, "You had a questionnaire, twenty-seven, twenty-eight." He says, "You answered, no you would not go in the army." That was the reason why I got recalled. So I asked the major, I says, "Kettle" his name. Anyway, I says, so I asked major, I say, "If you're in camp in a concentration camp" -- I always say concentration, which it was -- "would you have going in army?" And he didn't, he didn't even answer me. But he was nice, I got to know him pretty well. He came to see me after I came back from Japan. [Laughs] Anyway, it was all, he says he's going home to San Francisco. He was on the way. I don't know why he came to see me all the way into Long Beach and then, anyway, I got to know him pretty well. So I asked him, I says, "Hey, would you have gone in the army if you're in, in a concentration camp?" And he didn't even answer me. But anyway, that was the reason why I was recalled. So I say, "Who cares?"

RP: So those, those answers followed you all the way to Japan.

SI: That's right. But anyway, it was a, it took almost three years anyway, two and a half. [Laughs]

<Begin Segment 20>

RP: So you left camp in 1945.

SI: Yep.

RP: Before we leave camp, tell me a little bit about your, your brothers, your two older brothers? Did they work at Manzanar?

SI: Oh, yeah.

RP: What did they do?

SI: In fact, as far as I can remember, they were doing farm work. That was the extent of the two brothers. Of course, the younger brother was too young to work anyway so... my sister didn't work.

RP: Do you know how they answered the questionnaire?

SI: That I never asked. 'Cause my older brothers never went in the army. The second brother was drafted at the tail end of the Second War. And then he got discharged and then when the Korean War started he got recalled. 'Cause being drafted, he automatically goes into reserve. So he got recalled and then, but he already made a corporal when he was in the first time. And then he requested to go overseas. They denied it. They made him a cadre at Fort Ord. And then my youngest brother, he was lucked out, too. He, when the Korean war started, well, at the tail end of the Korean War, he went overseas but it was, the war's already over then so...

RP: Now your older brother, you said he, he went into the military out of camp?

SI: No.

RP: After camp.

SI: After camp. Yeah, we were all in after.

RP: How about your parents? What did they do in camp?

SI: Gee, I don't know. I don't know what they did in camp. I know my mother was working in the mess hall. But, I don't know what my dad did, though.

RP: Do you remember the day that your dad came back to Manzanar?

SI: No.

RP: And finally, your, the Yoshidas, did they live in, you said they lived in block...

SI: Block 10.

RP: Ten or eleven.

SI: I don't know, 11, I think it was, yeah.

RP: So many of the fathers of... you know, the fathers had been taken away, so there were a, many kids that didn't have fathers in camp. In... from Terminal Island...

SI: Well, not from Terminal Island, though.

RP: No?

SI: The only family that I know was the Matsunos. But, of course I didn't... well, they used to live not in the Terminal Island group. They were in what they call Terminal area which is a little further down there from, on the island. And I remember, all I can remember is one of my, one of the sister was my classmate. And there was a younger boy and the oldest brother, I think there was three in their family.

RP: Mary?

SI: Who?

RP: Do you remember Mary Matsuno?

SI: Yeah, my classmate, yeah.

RP: Oh.

SI: And there was a guy named Sho, the younger one. And there was an older boy, I can't recall his name.

<Begin Segment 21>

RP: So where did you go when you left camp?

SI: After we left camp? Oh, they sent us to, oh, I tell you, it's a dump. In Long Beach there was a trailer court. And half the, the resident over there was black. And most of them, I think they were from the South. And I tell you, it was like going, like a hell hole over there. And then I went to apply for navy housing. The guy told me, he says, they won't issue housing to anybody. I mean, you gotta be somebody that's in the service. So after I went in the army after basic training I got home and I applied for navy housing right away for the folks. So that's when they got to go into the naval housing.

RP: So, in, in this Long Beach trailer camp, the family had one trailer?

SI: Hey, that's it. One trailer for seven of us? Hey, you gotta be joking, you know. So anyway, good thing my, my grandparents, like Yoshida family was there. So two of 'em used to go there and two of 'em used to go to my mother's sister, which is Yoshida. They had a trailer and then one of them used to go over there. And two of us stayed in our assigned trailer, and mother and father, right?

RP: Did you have bathrooms in the trailers or did you have a...

SI: I can't remember, taking a bathroom. I think they did, yeah. But, I tell you, that was just one hell of a place, I mean, you know. But most of the time my second brother and myself were away anyway. We went to, like I said, Delano, went to Oregon. So luckily my older brother was home and when I wrote to him, just tell him to delay my physical.

RP: So housing was a real issue for a lot of people out of camp.

SI: Oh, yeah. Very much. There was two trailer court. One was on the west side and the other one was right almost downtown. And the other side was nicer. They had a community center and they got a clean place and all. And most, a lot of Japanese was over there but most of the Terminal Island people that was, was sent to that particular... some of 'em went to L.A. area. They live in the apartments and stuff like that.

RP: So, did the government send you down to the trailer park or they told you this is where you ought to get housing?

SI: Yep.

RP: So it sounded like it wasn't much of an upgrade from camp.

SI: Oh, it was worse.

RP: Worse.

SI: Yeah. So we had to go look for jobs. Jobs was hard to find. And Long Beach was the worst place in the world to go. Well, because it's a navy town, see. And of course most people are, they are so narrow minded that they think we were the one that caused this damn war. And, you know, I was, when I went in the army, came back, I went to one of the business place, they wouldn't even serve you. I was in the uniform. It didn't make any difference to them. That's how it was. But I didn't care because... so it is or always other place to go anyways. So, anyway, that was the one bad experience I had when I came to Long Beach.

<Begin Segment 22>

RP: So, you took the MIS school at Fort Snelling?

SI: No, we were the first class in Monterey. Presidio Monterey.

RP: Language Institute.

SI: Yeah. There was the remainder of the Fort, Fort Snelling group six month class was, they came with us, same timing. They finished the school in a couple months and they went overseas. And we were actually the first group to start Presidio Monterey. And then the second group came after we did which was about a couple weeks later. So the, when we first went over there, there was a headquarter company and ourselves, our group. So, and there was a group from Hawaii and we merged together and then we, we started the first class. That was in 1946. So...

RP: And, you went, then you were sent to Japan?

SI: Yeah.

RP: What was that like?

SI: Well, it was okay. I mean, you know, the thing was, you didn't encounter any... well, you know being a Japanese, and the feeling for me was, you know, it's sure nice to see all same faces, right? All Japanese. And that's how I felt. Not that I came back home, not that kind of feeling, but it was nice to be among all your Oriental face. But that was the first thing, impression I got when I went over there. So...

RP: Did you get a, a chance to visit with any of your mother's or father's family when you were there?

SI: Oh yeah. Not the first couple years. Well, let's see. I was there second year because I remember while up in, I was up in, stationed in Ibaragi, I took a leave and to see my uncle in Wakayama. And then since that, every year I used to go down there. And it was nice. 'Cause we get a couple weeks off anyways, so that's how... the only bad thing about it was it was stupid of me for not going to see other part of Japan. The only place I saw was there. I saw Osaka, Kyoto, Nara, but then again, now coming back, I told myself, oh gee, I should have gone down to Hiroshima, Shikoku, Kyushu, Hokkaido, which I have never been. Which I would have liked to. But in those days, the only, only thing I told myself was I'm gonna go see my uncle because it's...

RP: Many, many Japanese were finding, finding it difficult to find enough food to, to just stay alive.

SI: Very much so, especially in Tokyo. 'Cause when I went over there, Tokyo was completely bombed except that palace ground area, and in front of that there was a fuel building there. That was the only part that was... well, there was couple more places where it was spared, but mostly, you know, rest of the places were all bombed out. It was amazing how they came back, but I tell you that food was one thing that was so hard to find in Tokyo. And I met this girl and her family was in, near Shinjuku, but they were eating like peanuts for dinner and I tell you, that's how bad it was. So I used to go to the commissary and buy stuff for them. Which wasn't much because the... see, we couldn't go to the commissary, we had to go to a PX, unless you have a family, you get to go to the commissary. But, it was pretty bad. And I thought my uncle's place would be bad, too, but, so I used to take all these K-rations, C-rations. I used to take two duffle bag full, used to take it down there for them. But they were doing well because my uncle was pretty well-to-do. He had his own rice paddy and he was in construction over there. So he was doing okay for himself. So, but I used to take them all the K-rations, C-rations, I used to take it over to them. Yeah...

<Begin Segment 23>

RP: Well what, what did you do in Japan for the MIS? Mostly interpreter?

SI: Pardon?

RP: You did interpreting for the MIS?

SI: Oh yeah, right.

RP: And, and who did you work with? What section or what area?

SI: Well, when I was up in Ibaragi I was a strictly interpreting, interrogating prisoner of war.

RP: From, were these prisoners of war from...

SI: From Russia and China. And, we, I used to take, the officer and myself we would sit like this on a table and I'd be sittin' in the middle and the interrogee would be over there, officer be over then he will ask the question, then I interpret it, and that kind of work. And then when I came back to Tokyo I was assigned to Town Plan, which was making maps. And, that's when we have the interrogees come in and we used to interrogate them and then we used to make maps. It was interesting.

RP: Maps of the territory where they --

SI: Where they were held.

RP: -- held and what they remember about the area and ...

SI: So that was very interesting.

RP: And then the CIC, this was part of the CIC work that you were doing there?

SI: Well, CIC was mostly just, like I said, we were interrogating these returnees. That's, that was the bulk of the work. Then after, then I took a civilian job over there because, well, a friend of mine said, "Oh yeah, there's all kinds of jobs here." So I took a job. I was with the historical division. And it was actually interesting, too. Then after they, the office closed, I went back to ATIS and I was with the reproduction section. Then after a couple years, then I came, I went home. I should have stayed with them.

RP: And what did they do? What, what did reproduction involve?

SI: Well, mostly like captured stuff, like we, I don't know how they ever got a hold of those things, but we had, we used to make reproduction of all the stuff that was in China and Russia. I mean, I guess they, one way or another they had those and we used to make drawings of those things. We were compiling. That was interesting, too.

RP: Was there any particular people you interrogated or stories that you recall about the interrogations? The prisoners?

SI: Did I do what?

RP: Is there any particular prisoner that you interrogated or a story from them that you remember?

SI: Not really.

<Begin Segment 24>

RP: So you got married in Japan. Was it during this time that you were serving with the MIS or was it later?

SI: No, that was later when I was a civilian. But I still had to go to the army for permission to marry.

RP: You had to get permission?

SI: Yeah. Oh, yeah, in those days it was... they, in fact, I even wrote to my congressman to see if I can get kind of like, more or less like a permission to marry somebody here, in Japan. And so he wrote back and said no. He says wait, there'll be a blanket thing that will cover all of the personnel here in Japan so they can marry anybody, it'll be easier for them to marry, instead of trying to put in through a special request. So, which I did and it came through. Then it was pretty hard to marry somebody over there because being a civilian, too, I had through like their police check and all these other different kind of a background check for, for the wife, see. So, anyway...

RP: How did you meet your wife?

SI: Oh, she was working in an office and I just happened to be connected somehow with the office and then I start see if, I was dating her.

RP: Was she from Tokyo?

SI: Yeah.

RP: Had, had her family been affected by the bombing of Tokyo or...

SI: Well, no. Their house was there though. I mean, I can't imagine how they survived that bombing over there, but their house was there. So when I got married over there I built them an addition to the house. So, which was cheap in those days. So I lived there for... why I think, oh, before that I used to live someplace else. And the government all paid for it, you know, for my room and board, not room and board but room and maid service and the rent and they all, the government paid for all that. And soon after I left, I didn't change jobs. In fact, I did not change jobs but the office I was in, they moved to Saitama. And then that's when I moved into the other house. So, so I stayed there until I came back home.

RP: That was 1955?

SI: '55.

RP: And you came home with a wife and two children?

SI: One.

RP: One. And, what was...

SI: How did you know I was, came back in '55? Did I say that before? Oh, okay, whatever.

RP: You confessed to that.

SI: Okay, whatever. [Laughs.]

KP: Is that question twenty-seven?

SI: Right.

RP: Twenty-nine.

SI: Twenty-nine, yeah right.

RP: See, it's following you around.

SI: Oh, it sure did.

RP: That's a long story.

SI: Amazing.

RP: So, what was it like for your wife coming to America for the first time?

SI: How did I feel or how did she feel?

RP: How did was it for her, coming to America.

SI: She really didn't want to come, come here. And, but you know, the first kid was getting to be five years old and that's all she spoke was Japanese. And you know, I figured, so I asked her if she want to go to American school but she was, didn't want to go. And I didn't want to stay there the rest of my whatever time with the office. Then coming home without knowing any of the language here. So I made my decision which was, maybe it was wrong, I don't know. But anyway, it turned out pretty good, so...

<Begin Segment 25>

RP: I wanted to ask you about the, the redress, the letter of apology from the United States government.

SI: Yeah.

RP: In 1988 and also there was a $20,000 check that went with that.

SI: Yeah.

RP: How did you feel about that?

SI: Well, I was, something's better than nothing, that's what I thought. Well, if they're gonna give you twenty thousand, well, what, you think you can ask for more? No, I don't think so. So, but, maybe... I always told myself, if it's now, we will, probably got more. But, the only bad thing about it was I was kinda pissed on that was, people that was in there and had died before the thing came about, they didn't get anything. Which was a bad deal. My brother and my dad, they didn't get it because they, they passed away before the bill, bill came through. Which I think they should, they should have got their twenty thousand, too. Or to their family. But what can you do? Nobody was gonna fight for you. It would probably have taken ten years before you can get, get that money, so...

<Begin Segment 26>

RP: And when did you start this Terminal Island group or association that meets...

SI: That I don't know. 'Cause see, I was overseas then yet. And I think they might, it might have been started before I came back. So that I don't know. In fact, I never asked.

RP: You're also been involved in planning some of the high school reunions?

SI: Was I involved in high school... not really, huh.

RP: You get up and sing every year.

SI: No, well, that, that's the whole camp thing. But we did have a few reunion, aside from the camp reunion. Remember we used to go to the different restaurant that had [inaudible]. I don't know who used to, I think, well, there was a few people that I knew that was involved in that, but they're all, a couple of them just died already, so... aside from that, that's all I can remember. Not, not too much with the, the high school all class, class reunion. But I've been involved with the Manzanar group for, like, oh, a half a dozen year now.

RP: You're still, you still have friends that you met in camp and...

SI: Oh, yeah, yeah. Lots. Surprising how much they change there.

RP: Based on what, what you went through going to camp, do you have any advice or insight to share with young people today?

SI: Well, offhand, I can't think of nothing I would like to relay to them. The only thing was that I think most of the young people now, they don't even know that Manzanar is existed. Even my grandkids, I don't think they even know that I was in camp. Which, I didn't get a chance to sit down and talk to them. So, which I would like to one of these days. But...

RP: Did your camp experience have any impact on your life or...

SI: Not really. It's, it's back there already. So, of course, the only regret is that we didn't have a basic education there which would have helped. But most of the guys, I guess they struggled and went through college, which was fine. But me, I just, when I went overseas I spent most of my time and got married over there, got family and all my... so I didn't get a chance to see the college or the thing that I would have liked to do. But, well, I guess that's life.

<Begin Segment 27>

RP: What did you end up doing as a, as work or a career?

SI: Well, we came over here. See, I was one of the very few people that knew how to draw a map. So that's when I... in fact, there's the thing, the thing was I went to look for a job. There was an ad in the paper where there was a... oh, I went to a, one of these place where they tell you where to go look for a job. I went over there and instead of going to this door here, I went to this door. And so I found a job where there was a mapping company. The other place was the mechanical drawing place. And I took that in high school so... anyway, I went in this door which was the wrong door and the guy says, "What can you do? You draw maps?" I said, "Yeah, I draw map." Okay, right away they want me to work that day because there was no guy, nobody knew how to draw. It was a mapping company, Pacific Air Industry, I still remember that name. Anyway, so anyway that company that, that send me to that building want part of my paycheck. I said, what for, what? I didn't even go to the place you sent me. Anyway, so they said, well, I guess that's why they let me go. But, that's when I started working for them. I worked there for about twelve years. And it was a private company and I says, there was no future for me there, right? So, I told myself, well, my sister was in, in nursery business. So I went in there. And I says, well... she wanted a flower shop. So I went to my friend's place, they had a flower shop. And I went there for eight month, every weekend, and learned how to make corsages and funeral wreaths, wedding bouquets and so then I opened up a flower shop over there, here in Orange. I did that for what, twenty years, I guess.

RP: And then you retired?

SI: Well, not really. Then, no, then we... actually, we were on a leased land and the lady won't renew our lease. So we close our shop and then me and my wife went to -- this is my second wife now -- we went to Huntington Beach and opened up a flower shop over there. So that's where... we did that for, I guess, ten years, I guess. And then she was tired of that so we retired from there.

RP: Just one more question, Cabbie, about when you came out of camp, was there any, anybody that offered any help or assistance or volunteered to help you when you...

SI: Like what?

RP: You made mention of a volunteer from Los Angeles who helped you after you came out of camp.

SI: No.

RP: No?

SI: No, nothing. We were on our own. You either look for a job and make a living or what. So...

RP: Okay. Anything else you'd like to add, Cabbie, before we conclude?

SI: Well, nothing I can think of. The thing that... I don't know. It was, it was an interesting life for myself actually. But, I still can't retire completely because I live on my social security, so I work a little bit to increase my income. I mean, I could retire if I wanted to, but hey, what can I do? Then I can just stay home and watch TV? No.

RP: Well, thank you so much for allowing us to interview you today.

SI: Hey, no problem.

RP: On behalf of myself and Kirk and the National Park Service, we really appreciate your stories and memories.

SI: Good.