Densho Digital Archive - Tommy T. Kushi Interview

<Begin Segment 1>

RP: This is an oral history for the Manzanar National Historic Site. This afternoon we're talking with Tom Kushi. The interview is taking place at the Japanese United Methodist Church on 6929 Franklin Boulevard in the city of Sacramento, California. Our interviewer is Richard Potashin, and our videographer is Kirk Peterson. Date of our interview is October 18, 2008, and we'll be discussing Tom's life today with particular emphasis on his time at Tule Lake Relocation Center and eventually relocation to Chicago, Illinois. Tom, do I have permission to continue our interview?

TK: Yes, you do.

RP: Thank you. I'd like to get a little bit of a picture of your early childhood and also talk a little bit about your parents. Let's start by asking you, first of all, what your birthdate was.

TK: February 1, 1924.

RP: And you were born in...

TK: Born in Florin by Stockton Boulevard and Gerber Road.

RP: And you weren't delivered at a hospital, a midwife came?

TK: Yeah, I think it's a midwife.

RP: Did the midwife deliver all the kids in the...

TK: I'm pretty sure, at that time. In Florin, we had a couple of midwives.

RP: Did you have a Japanese name at birth?

TK: Yes, it's Tameo, T-A-M-E-O.

RP: And you told us that you were given the name Tommy possibly by a teacher?

TK: Yeah, a teacher. She couldn't pronounce "Tameo" when I was in first grade, so she said, "From now on, you're Tommy."

RP: And that's what we'll refer to you during the interview, Tommy. Tommy, let's go back a little bit in looking at your father. And share with us his name.

TK: Oh, Shonosuke, S-H-O-N-O-S-U-K-E.

RP: And what part of Japan did he hail from?

TK: He was from Hiroshima.

RP: Share with us what you remember about his life in Japan. What was his family involved with?

TK: As far as I know, must have been farmers or something. And they were getting poorer and poorer, so they decided, he decided, anyway, might as well come to the United States and make a living. So he left -- I think he originally went to Hawaii to work in the sugar cane fields. And I don't know how long he stayed there, but then he came to San Francisco in (1906), right at the time when they had that San Francisco earthquake. So he said they had to land in Oakland. And as far as my mother, she came later on.

RP: What was her name?

TK: Masa, Masa Ishimoto. M-A-S-A, Ishimoto is I-S-H-I-M-O-T-O.

RP: And she also came from the same area, the village?

TK: Yeah, Hiroshima. I think she was a "picture bride," as far as I know, "picture bride."

RP: There was about, about eleven years' difference between your mother and your father?

TK: Yeah, age-wise, yeah.

RP: Do you know if your father had plans to make money here in the United States?

TK: [Laughs] I guess they all did.

RP: And then return?

TK: Yeah, and then return to Japan, I guess. 'Cause when we visited Japan, they had a big, what do you call that, funeral... what do you call those?

RP: Like a crypt?

TK: Yeah, crypt or something, our family crypt. We saw it there. But, I guess, later on, I guess they couldn't afford to go back. [Laughs]

RP: Especially when they started having you guys.

TK: Yeah.

RP: Tell us about your siblings.

TK: Oh. Way before I was born, I had two sisters, I think they died at birth. Then I had another brother, he was, I don't know, about ten years old when he died. He was a blue baby, one of those people with heart problem. And he died before I was born. Then there was three sisters after him, Bertha and Lily and Misu, and then I was born. Between my closest sister, we're about seven years apart.

RP: I guess your dad was probably hoping for a son.

TK: Yeah, that's why I think there's a joke going. I think when my next sister was born, he says, well, he missed it again, that's why he called her Misu. [Laughs] That's the joke that's going around, anyway. And finally I was born seven years later.

RP: Finally, yeah.

<Begin Segment 2>

RP: And what did your father do early on in this country? Did he, was he farming originally?

TK: Well, his uncle was here before him, so I guess his uncle got him started as a farmer. He was raising grapes, I think.

RP: In this particular area, the Sacramento area?

TK: Yeah, Florin.

RP: In Florin. And that uncle's name, last name or first name was Kuzo?

TK: Kuzo, K-U-Z-O, Tsukamoto. T-S-U-K-A-M-O-T-O. Tsukamoto.

RP: And Florin was essentially a strawberry and grape producing area?

TK: Mostly grapes at first, I think, then strawberry came later. And that's all most of 'em raised. Yeah, it got to a point where Florin was the strawberry capital of the world, and all these Japanese were raising strawberries. Not too many Caucasians liked that bending over to pick strawberry.

RP: What do you recall about your father as a person, as a father?

TK: Well, he didn't talk much, but he was kind of scary as far as I was concerned. [Laughs]

RP: In what way?

TK: I mean the way he looked. Yeah, he really looked scary. But he was, he didn't raise his hand or anything, you know. Just look in, just when he looked at you, you said, "Okay." So he was, he was just really, whatever he did, whatever he said.

RP: Your mom, her name?

TK: Oh, what was this?

RP: Your mom's name?

TK: Masa, M-A-S-A, Ishimoto, I-S-H-I-M-O-T-O.

RP: What do you know about her background in Japan?

TK: Gee, as far as the background, I know she was the daughter of some Buddhist priest. That much I know a little bit. But I don't know what religion, some kind of Buddhist sect. And we went for a visit one time. So she had sisters that came to the United States, and I think the brother or someone went to South America, Sao Palo, I think.

RP: And the sisters stayed in the United States?

TK: Yeah. She had one sister in Seattle, one sister in Fresno, and I think another sister in Hawaii. She was the oldest.

RP: Your mom was?

TK: Yeah, my mom was the oldest. That's as far as I know. I met a few of my cousins. I never did meet the ones in Hawaii, but I met the ones in South America. And I always see my cousins in Fresno and Seattle.

RP: So you were scattered around a bit?

TK: Yeah.

RP: Did either of your, did either your mother or your father have sort of a creative side to them?

TK: Not really.

RP: Music, art?

TK: They just went to work and that's it.

RP: Work?

TK: Yeah.

RP: Did your mom ever share with you some of her early life in America? You said she possibly was a "picture bride"?

TK: Well, she didn't, all she did was she came and married my dad and helped him with the farm, that's about it.

RP: So do you have any early memories of life on the farm?

TK: Yeah. Well, since I was the youngest and I was the only son, I should have been helping more. But I was kind of young, so my sisters were helping him more. Picking grapes and strawberries and all that stuff. By the time I grew up and the war started, that was it.

RP: So you didn't spend much time working on the farm.

TK: No, not too much. Couple of years, about it, that's it.

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RP: Can you describe to us the farm itself and where the house was?

TK: Well, we lived in a comfortable, good-sized home. But as far as I know, right then and there, I swore up and down I would never work on a farm. 'Cause I see them working all year around, and at the end of the year, you've got nothing to show for it. It always was barely making a living. But that's about it.

RP: Did your father own the land that he farmed?

TK: I think we were leasing it. And I think one or two years before the war started, our vineyard was infested by, we called it mealy bugs, some kind of aphids. And our farm was the only one that got caught. So we couldn't ship any grapes, 'cause all the grapes were shiny and sticky. Only way we could get rid of the grapes was to send 'em to the winery. So we couldn't ship any, so my dad took my two sisters and went to work in Lodi picking grapes. You know, they had these labor camps, some people from Florin, they had these labor camps so they went over there and worked. So those three worked, and my mom, since I was still going to high school, my mom stayed and she tried to pick, she looked all over and picked some grapes that were uninfected, but there weren't too many. We used to send, ship two or three hundred crates a day. Well, when the bugs got 'em, maybe two or three boxes, crates, that's all. So anyway, she stayed and took care of me while the folks, other sisters and whachacall were working. And at the end of the year when they got paid, my dad says, "You know, it's ridiculous. We made more money this year working for somebody else, than doing our own." He said, "We should have done this a long time ago." [Laughs] But that was about three years before, then the war broke out. So anyway, he had this farm, he says, "I'm going to give it back to the owner." Told him, "You could have it back," he said, "we quit." Then, so let's see. About October or November, before the war broke out, we moved to the town of Florin, rented a house. So we dropped everything at the old farm. So that's how we got out of farming.

RP: It was pretty marginal. Like you say, some years you would get a good crop, and other years...

TK: Yeah, and the only time I remember, I think there was one summer, 1937, I guess, crops were real good, '37. And we made pretty good, you know, we shipped lot of crates before Labor Day, we made lots of money. But right after that, down. So he says, "Boy, it's not worth it," after all these years.

RP: Most of the grapes that you grew were primarily for, for table grapes?

TK: Yeah, table grapes, Tokay.

RP: Tokay?

TK: Yeah.

RP: That was the predominant variety.

TK: Yeah, that's all. That's all they had in Florin, Tokay. And strawberry was Oregon Plum and that's about it. We didn't have too many acres of strawberry, maybe two acres. But rest is all grapes, forty, fifty acres.

RP: The house that you lived in, did it have all the modern conveniences of the day, indoor plumbing?

TK: No, no indoor plumbing, just cold water. We didn't have no heater.

RP: You still had to go out to the outhouse?

TK: Yeah, outhouse. They all had that.

RP: And Frances was describing the Japanese bath.

TK: Yeah, outside, in a house by itself, little shed. And then you heat the water...

RP: What were your jobs or chores around the house or on the farm that you recall?

TK: Well, when I got old enough to drive a tractor, I enjoyed that, plowing. You know, I got to drive the tractor. And other than that, picked grapes and strawberries, that's about it.

RP: You picked enough to, like you say, decide that you didn't want to do that?

TK: Yeah, 'cause at the end of the year, we have nothing. Says, "You know, it's ridiculous." You know, after I graduate, I wanted to work for the state. So I took up typing when I was a sophomore and junior year. And last year, senior, I took up office (practice) and I was pretty good in typing. Then the war broke out and there goes my job. [Laughs]

RP: So you were already planning for your...

TK: Yeah, I was thinking.

RP: ...your career when the war came along.

TK: 'Cause some of the people I knew went to work for the state. And they were, at that time, I guess, they were making, I don't know what the, forty, fifty dollars a month, and that was pretty good money those days. Said, "Hey, I'd rather do that." So I was all set to take a test, and then the war broke out, and then there goes the job.

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RP: Let's go back a little and talk about your, your experiences in Florin. Did you attend Japanese language school in addition to...

TK: Yeah. I had a couple, three years, I guess. But we only had it Saturdays, our church, Methodist church. Only reason I liked to go is I didn't have to work on the farm. [Laughs] I said, "Oh, I'll go to school." I didn't learn anything, but we learned a little bit. And our minister was real nice.

RP: Was the minister also the Japanese language school teacher?

TK: Yeah, yeah, minister and his wife.

RP: Do you remember his name?

TK: Yeah, Yonosuke Sasaki. Yonosuke is Y-O-N-O-S-U-K-E, and Sasaki, S-A-S-A-K-I.

RP: And besides learning the language, did you learn additional history about Japan or cultural customs?

TK: Not... we didn't pay too much attention, you know, just going to grammar school or whatever. But when I was, at that time, older guys were, older people, not guys, but kids were taking kendo, that's Japanese sword. And that was the thing at that time, kendo. And we all took it, I think I was in about third grade or something.

RP: How long did you pursue it?

TK: I took it three years. I took it for three years. That's the one that the teachers, they taught you how to be, obey your folks, obey the authority, all that. They pound that into the... they didn't pound it, but they were strict.

RP: Emphasized it in kendo.

TK: Yeah.

RP: And who was the kendo teacher?

TK: God, I can't even remember that teacher. I know he was a short man, but I can't remember his name. Maybe later on it might come.

RP: What do you remember most about taking kendo, Tommy?

TK: Well, when we put that armor on and go at each other in that, sometimes they missed, they hit you on the bare arms. You can't cry, you just have to bear it and just keep at it. But the hardest thing is when you have to sit on your knees, you know. You don't dare say anything, you just sit there. That hurt. But it was interesting, though. But they were pretty strict about... says, "Be kind to your folks," that part.

RP: So you learned, sort of, values and things like that.

TK: Yeah, yeah. They were real strict. But it's not like a lot of people thought about the national whatever, the Japanese...

RP: Kendo was misinterpreted by...

TK: Yeah, yeah. It was a sport.

RP: ...authorities.

TK: 'Cause a lot of people thought, "Oh, they taught you how to be a Japanese military or whatever," no. You know, you're little kids, they're not going to teach you all that. But they taught us mostly about our parents, older people.

[Interruption]

RP: Would you compete against other teams from other parts of...

TK: Oh, yeah. They came from all over.

RP: Where?

TK: At that time, they had, they used to have tournaments, they come from all over, from San Francisco. And we used to go to San Francisco, Kezar Stadium.

RP: Kezar Stadium?

TK: Yeah, at that time they had Kezar Stadium, so we went out there. Go through all the, at first, go through the regular attention and all that stuff, and then they go to tournament and all that.

RP: Where else did you travel?

TK: That's about it. It was right after the Depression, so you didn't go too far. But the parents scraped up enough money for, had buses, rent a bus and go, yeah.

RP: So those were some of your earliest trips as a kid, going out of the area?

TK: Yeah.

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TK: When I was about three or four, I think, Mom took me to Japan. And I still remember the rickshaw, and I was so awed by it. I'd say, "Hey, Mom, there's a man instead of a horse pulling it." [Laughs] She always tells me that. And we happened to stay in the hotel, and Japanese soldiers were there, I think. And they took a liking to me, and they came and took me around. I still remember that.

RP: You were about three or four.

TK: Yeah. And on the boat, three or four years old, running around on the boat, and never got lost. I knew where everything was, I used to run around. That's one thing I used to remember about that.

RP: Did your sisters also go back with you?

TK: No, no, just... I was the youngest one, the only boy, I used to get spoiled.

RP: Did you get to meet your family in Japan, too, at that time?

TK: Yeah, I guess I met my aunt, my uncle and aunt, I guess. It was out in the, outside of town, Hiroshima town, I guess. I think right now, it'd be in the middle of town, but back in those days... and there was a certain, they always say the anpan, I mean, that cake or something. I used to love it. In the middle of the night, I'd start hollering, and they'd have to go after it.

RP: How much time did you spend in Japan?

TK: Oh, just a few months, I guess. Couple of months, I guess. But all those little things, I kind of remembered a little bit.

<Begin Segment 6>

RP: So at an early age, you had a little sense of your Japanese roots and culture.

TK: Yeah, little bit, yeah. So then in Florin, they used to sponsor movies. This guy used to come bring movies for two nights, and he brings samurai and all those. So in Florin, when all these people are taking kendo, the samurai, we loved that thing. [Laughs]

RP: Were those showing at the Methodist church?

TK: Well, all those different churches, schools, they all sponsored it. For a dollar, the whole family could go for two nights and see it. That's the only recreation most of us had. So in the summertime and wintertime, there were all these different churches, schools, Japanese schools. They all sponsored it. We all used to go get on the car and get over there and sit on a hard bench. [Laughs]

RP: Were these mostly silent movies, or did they have sound at that time?

TK: Yeah, at that time, they used to have this guy, the one who brings it, he is supposed to play all the parts, women, and it was kind of neat. Of course, half the time, we don't understand it anyway, so we just watched the action. [Laughs] So later on, the talkies came.

RP: You mentioned all these churches in Florin. Maybe we can just kind of go over what, what you actually had for the social community and the church community. You had a Florin Buddhist church?

TK: Methodist church.

RP: A Methodist church?

TK: Then outside of Florin had their own Buddhist... so you know, mostly mainly Buddhist or Methodist. But Methodist is just that one place, mostly. I don't think they had anything anyplace else. But Buddhist they had... I don't know if they had altars or something in other places, but in Elk Grove they had their own Japanese school and all that. They all sponsored. So just about every club in that area sponsored in the wintertime or summertime. So it was, that was a, most of the recreation, outside of baseball, basketball.

RP: Yeah, did you get involved with that in high school or did you also have teams like... Florin had a baseball team.

TK: Well, they had baseball, and I guess before my time they had a football team. And mostly basketball. The churches, and they all, districts, you know, like Perkins had their own, Elk Grove had their own, they all had their... and our church had their own teams.

RP: Basketball and baseball? And you were...

TK: And Methodist, I played for the Methodist team.

RP: What was your position?

TK: Oh, mostly forward.

RP: Did you have a gymnasium associated with the church?

TK: Yeah, it's, I was just looking at that thing. Half the, half court, you know, just from here to there. But Buddhist, they built a big gymnasium, you know, the regular size. But like ours, we just had that half court from here to there. And it's only... yeah, it's only from here to there, just that, oh, that side, the basket on that side. That's all we played.

RP: You had an interesting blend of Japanese cultural and American cultural sports activities, the kendo as well as the basketball, kind of drawing from both, both cultures.

TK: Well, see, like kendo and judo, that's what the Isseis, they went for. So they made the kids take that up. And at one time, gee, just about every kid was taking kendo. Even my sister had to take kendo, the one next to me, she took kendo. She was better than me. [Laughs]

RP: Was it common for women to take kendo or was that kind of just...

TK: Well, there were quite a few ladies that took it, sports. Yeah, when war broke out, we had these armor, we had to wear 'em. Says, oh, man. They didn't want anything to do with -- Americans didn't want anything to do with that kind of stuff. Said, "Well, we better burn 'em," so we burned 'em. But right now, they're worth millions. [Laughs] Tons of money. They're expensive. Those days they weren't.

<Begin Segment 7>

RP: Tommy, when you first started school in Florin grammar school, it was kind of a unique situation. You went to one of, one of the few schools in California that was officially segregated.

TK: Yeah, there was four segregated schools.

RP: Walnut Grove, Florin...

TK: Florin, Isleton and Courtland. See, Courtland, Walnut Grove and Isleton, they're in that river delta, then Florin. And I think Florin, I think... going through the book, anyway, they segregated in, started in 1923, and then our JACL got involved in 1939 and they consolidated 1939. I graduated in 1938, so a couple years after I... whatchacall, then they, the first graduation, consolidated.

RP: It was just the grammar schools that were...

TK: Yeah, just the grammar school. When you went to high school, it was all combined.

RP: What do you remember about that experience, going to a segregated school? I know you were very young, did you wonder why there were just Japanese kids around?

TK: No, at that time, we didn't pay any attention about it. You just took it for normal, you went to school. But later on, then civil rights came up. We said, "Hey, something's not right." But we didn't really think nothing of it. So we used to go to... well, of course in those days, we used to speak a lot of Japanese, broken Japanese, and the teachers didn't like it. [Laughs] "Speak English, speak English," you know. But... and we used to, our grammar school, we used to call it Florin East, that's our Japanese, and Florin West. And we used to play baseball and everything, we used to clobber 'em. [Laughs] All the, see, in those days, I guess even now, Japanese kids at that age tend to age, always age much faster. So they were good in baseball and all that. We used to clobber that Florin West.

RP: So you were --

KP: Tommy, at your segregated school, your teachers were Caucasian?

TK: Yeah. We didn't have any... those days, they didn't have any Japanese teachers. Yeah, I remember if the teachers do what they, at that time, they do it now, oh, they'd get sued.

RP: What did they, what do you mean? Punishment?

TK: Oh, I seen one guy, one teacher hit another... the kid wasn't in fifth grade, and she got a book and, pow, hit him on the back of the head. Oh, I said, if they do that now, boy, they'd get sued. But those days, if the kid did that, kid go home and tell the folks, they'd get bawling out from the folks. Say, "Why'd you do that? You deserve it." See, Japanese, they were strict about it. But I kept thinking, "God..." and that schoolteacher was kind of big.

RP: Woman or a man?

TK: Oh, a woman. We didn't have hardly any men in those days.

RP: So they were pretty heavily disciplinarian.

TK: Oh, yeah.

RP: Now, did you get into any trouble?

TK: No, I didn't get into any trouble. I saw the size of the teachers, I'm not going to argue. [Laughs]

RP: So you attended school in east Florin or west Florin?

TK: East, other side of the railroad.

RP: That's the school that's still there today?

TK: It's still there, yeah, the building's still there.

RP: We visited it last night.

TK: Oh, yeah? No, they use it for some kind of library or something.

RP: It should be an historic site.

TK: Yeah.

RP: What else do you remember about going to school at that, at that school?

TK: Not... other than that, we didn't pay too much attention. After we went to high school... well, we thought everything was normal, you know. We didn't think about civil rights then. But I was looking at, looking at my annual, and I started counting all the... well, at that time when I was a senior, let's see. Forty-eight percent was Japanese, my senior class.

RP: That was in Elk Grove?

TK: Yeah. Hundred and thirty, I counted 130 graduate. Out of that, sixty-three were Japanese. But the entire school, we had thirty-eight, thirty-eight percent was Japanese. The senior class of forty-eight, or forty-something. So when we left, my classmate, one of the classmates wrote to me and says, "There's nobody around here." Half the student body was gone. [Laughs]

<Begin Segment 8>

RP: Florin had a small business area, downtown area.

TK: Yeah, right by the railroad.

RP: Right by the railroad tracks. What do you remember about that community? Particular stores that you used to go to?

TK: Yeah. I still remember Mr. Tanikawa's, on this side, Mr. Tanikawa's and Mr. Kato. One was a dry goods, one was a fish, groceries. On the other side, there was, Moritas had a barber shop, the Akiyamas had a grocery store, and you know, a couple of grocery stores all along there. So that's where we'd go, we'd shop.

RP: You get your rice there?

TK: Yeah, rice or... and one or two of 'em used to have a panel truck, they used to come around all the farms.

RP: Oh, the markets there would send a...

TK: Yeah. I think only one or two, I think. They have their fish, they just come and... instead of the farmers going to them, they come to the farmers.

RP: Fish, tofu, things like that?

TK: Yeah.

RP: Who had the best candy in town?

TK: [Laughs] I don't know, really. This one lady, Tanikawa, Mrs. Tanikawa used to be so kind, they used to give us candy and stuff. To me, anyway. And others, Akiyamas, well, her sons, one of 'em was a classmate of mine, and couple of 'em were a little younger, but they're all boys. They all took kendo and stuff like that.

RP: Did you get involved in outdoor activities at all like fishing or hunting when you were growing up?

TK: No, no, I never did. My dad, he wasn't into fishing and stuff, so I never did take up the... but where I used to live, in Stockton Boulevard, right now it's all covered, but it used to be big, what is it, drainage or whatever, the big culvert or whatever. And every year, when it rains a lot, all the fish used to come, carp and perch, and so we'd just go in there and fish. That's my fishing, you just go in there and just grab 'em. When the water gets low, we used to just walk in there and just grab the carp. But I don't like fish. [Laughs] My mom loved it, but I don't like fish, so I never did eat 'em.

RP: Since you guys grew so many grapes, did you also make wine at the farm, or sake?

TK: Yeah, Dad, he used to make a few wine. I used to, used to just shove 'em through that slot, and they'd get the juice and all that. Then he used to have a little basement, he would store the barrel, of course, trying to make some wine. Then these... I remember the one time, the FBI or somebody came. [Laughs] My dad was heating the outdoor bath, and he was stoking the... well, they thought he was making moonshine. [Laughs] So they came by just to, they tasted it, it's water. That was it.

KP: Those guys were drinking bathwater.

TK: Yeah, I remember that.

RP: Were there, were there farmers or moonshiners in the Florin area like there were so many other places?

TK: I don't remember that. They just make their own wine to drink, and that's it. I didn't hear of anybody trying to sell it. I don't think they even thought about it. [Laughs]

RP: They were selling their bathwater, too, huh? Wow. You mentioned about the Depression years. Do you have any particular memories of how difficult times were?

TK: Oh, yeah. 'Cause I remember I used to love cartoons and stuff. Just to get a Sunday paper, nickel or whatever, those days, we didn't have any. Like grammar school, I think, they would serve, gave us lunch. It was just soup and stuff like that, that's about it. I says, "Oh man, it's bad." So right to this day, I worry about the economy right now, I say, "Hey, we're going right toward it." Scary. You see some people spending money left and right, said, "Oh, man, they better try to save it or something." Those days, those Depression, man, that's scary. You can't even have money, ten cents for the newspaper or whatever.

<Begin Segment 9>

RP: As you were growing up entering high school, were you aware of Japan and the situation in the world at all, or were you just busy being a teenager?

TK: Well, at our church, when the things started to kind of heat up around October or September before the war started, some guys were saying, "Gee, it looks like there's going to be a war," you know. We used to say, "A small country like Japan trying to attack? No way. Look how far they are, the boats. They're crazy." We used to say, "They're crazy. They won't attack." Boy, when it started, he was all mad, "What the heck are they doing? What are they thinking?" We don't know too much about politics.

RP: Did you ever get a sense from your father where he stood, where his loyalties...

TK: No, he never did mention it.

RP: He didn't express any concern about his...

TK: We never did talk about it, in those days. Like I say, politics were way, we're too busy trying to earn a living. So who cares about what Japan's doing?

RP: "We got our own problems."

TK: Yeah. And we used to see, like I say, they used to bring the movies over, and they used to have some war pictures from Japan. Well, naturally, okay, we root for Japan against the Chinese or some of these... but that's about it. [Laughs] No politics involved, just the war picture.

KP: Kind of like Cowboys and Indians.

TK: Yeah, that's it. [Laughs]

RP: Japanese-style.

TK: That's about it.

RP: Did you have Caucasian friends during the time you were going to high school?

TK: Yeah, my next door neighbor... well, I don't know if it's Caucasian, he's half Mexican, his mother was French. Joe Lopez. We used to, well, he's just next door so I'd just go over there and go up to the bus stop. So that's about it.

RP: How far was it from your farm to the grammar school that you attended?

TK: Three miles.

RP: And you walked that?

TK: Yeah. Well, until, let's see, third or fourth grade, I think Mom used to take us. But after that, we used to walk. Because we used to come down Florin Road to Stockton Boulevard, two miles, and one mile that way. Then my friend used to live half mile from the corner. I'd drop him off or whatever, and then I'd walk the rest by myself. Or sometimes we walked, take a shortcut through those people's vineyards and take a shortcut. And when we'd do that, I'd run into -- 'cause I had a lot of Caucasian friends that used to live around that neighborhood. There's not too many Japanese, see. So I used to know a lot of Caucasian people, and we used to walk.

<Begin Segment 10>

RP: Going back a little bit to some of the cultural activities, I was curious to know whether you celebrated any of the traditional Japanese holidays, specifically the three older sisters, Girl's Day, Boy's Day.

TK: No, we never did.

RP: New Year's?

TK: New Year's is the only time, you know, we had the whole, we get to eat.

RP: What are your memories about, about Japanese New Year's?

TK: Oh, that we get to eat that certain kind of Japanese food. That's the only time we get to eat, New Year's, certain kind of food. She doesn't make it all the time, the New Year's. That's about it. And we didn't have too many people coming over, 'cause my dad, he wasn't a drinker. So nobody hardly came over unless my, his nephew, he might come over or something, but we didn't go over either, too many places. So we just had our own feast, chicken and things like that.

RP: Dishes that you wouldn't get the rest of the year?

TK: Yeah.

RP: Ozouni?

TK: Yeah, my mom used to... that's the only time. Some people do it other times, but I guess my mom used to do it New Year's. Umani, that's the only time we used to get it, New Year's. And that sushi, the "football" they called it, I guess. [Laughs]

RP: Mochi?

TK: Yeah, that's the only time.

RP: Now, did your family, would you go out and pound that mochi?

TK: Yeah. My cousin, my cousin, or my dad's nephew, he would bring his family and then we'd do it at our house. That's the only time that I went, I mean, we'd pound that thing. Those days, I don't see how they used to do it. They do about hundred pounds apiece. Hundred pounds, that's a lot of pounding. My dad and my (cousin), they used to do it. Now, I do it two times and there's just no way... but hundred pounds apiece. That's a lot of pounding. Of course, you only do about two or three pounds, I think, each time you put in... I don't see how they did it. They eat that practically all year, mochi.

RP: Now your, both your parents came from Hiroshima. I imagine there were other folks from Hiroshima in the Florin area. Was there a kenjinkai?

TK: Well, Dad never did belong to the kenjinkai. But they have a, Hiroshima Kenjinkai was the biggest. After my... I guess they used to belong to it, and then my dad died, somebody in the family's supposed to take his place, so I joined. So I went to the New Year's party. Gee, those guys, I never seen so many -- they had about eight hundred at that New Year's party. And that was the biggest kenjinkai, Hiroshima is the biggest. And I don't know what it, I don't know what it is now, it's down to maybe two or three hundred now.

RP: And those, and those parties would be in Sacramento, or where were they held?

TK: Yeah, Sacramento, at one of the bigger hotels, Doubletree or whatever. Yeah, the first time I went, gee, eight hundred.

RP: This is after the war?

TK: Yeah. That was back in 1960-something I joined. But now, I don't go anymore, 'cause nighttime I don't want to go out anymore.

RP: So your, you graduated high school, you said 1939, is it?

TK: That's grammar school. See, I graduated, three days before my graduation, I had to evacuate, '42. So I said, "Oh, three more days," but no, we were saying, "I don't see how we could go 'cause there was a curfew." All Japanese, we can't go, after five or six o'clock in the evening, we can't go out, and you can't travel more than five miles. So we'd say, "Hey, how are we going to..." but as far as going to school, the principal says, "As long as you ride the bus, it's all right. You could come five miles." So everybody rode the bus.

<Begin Segment 11>

RP: We're continuing our interview today with Tom Kushi. And Tom, we were just about ready to talk a little bit about Pearl Harbor. And what do you remember about December 7, 1941?

TK: We were at church in Florin. And well, I didn't go into the adult service, but, so we were in high school, we were finished, so we were outside playing basketball or something. And my cousin Al Tsukamoto, he came dashing up, he just ran into the church and says, "Hey, Japan bombed Pearl Harbor." As far as I know, after that, I guess they stopped the church, I guess, and everybody went home. That's as far as I know. After that we says, "Hey, what's going to happen to us?"

RP: So there was some concern on your part about, "What was going to happen to us?"

TK: Yeah, 'cause Florin, we're, I wouldn't say used to it, and get all this, what do you call that, racial prejudice. But so, and I was a senior already. So it wasn't too bad. Our senior group, Caucasians, we had all nice guys in the seniors. So if it was the class before, there would have been trouble, I think, 'cause there was a bunch of radical, I wouldn't say radical, but bunch of guys that were kind of prejudiced. But we didn't have no problem. And we used to eat lunch, not in the... we used to go down the street to this auto dealer, Mr. Beach, we used to eat lunch there, get a Coke or whatever. First thing he says is, "I don't want nobody in here to talk about the war." Said, "I don't want no problems," he says. He was real nice. 'Cause not only Japanese guys go, the Caucasian kids could go. And first thing he says, "Nobody talks about the war."

RP: Was that the case with high school, too? Were there teachers or principals who cautioned the students not to jump on your case or any of the Japanese kids?

TK: Well, like all the teachers I went to, they never mentioned one word about the war.

RP: So life just went on in high school as normal.

TK: Yeah. Only thing is we were just wondering, "Gee, what are they going to do?" So the principal, I guess afterwards, he says, "As long as you come on the bus, you could come to school." Of course at that time, there was no curfew or anything then. The war just broke out.

RP: Right.

TK: You just went as usual.

RP: And then life did change when the curfews came along?

TK: Well, when the --

RP: What about the restrictions and the effect that they had on your...

TK: Travel?

RP: On your travel.

TK: Yeah, well, nobody went out. 'Cause you can't go out after six, so we didn't go out after six.

RP: Really hampered your social life.

TK: Well, I was in high school, and what kind of social life is there in high school? Only thing is the basketball game. I lived in the town of Florin, so you could walk to the gymnasium or something, but that's about it.

<Begin Segment 12>

KP: Interesting question here, to go back just a little bit to... you mentioned that in high school, while living in the town of Florin, you were used to, kind of, prejudice before Pearl Harbor? Do you remember saying that?

TK: Yeah, well...

KP: What kind of things did you experience --

TK: Well, we just didn't go out of our --

RP: -- the class was bad or whatever.

TK: Well, we didn't, I didn't run across anybody. But it was just there, you know what I mean? And we didn't... I don't know, ask for... I don't know what to, how to explain it. We didn't go outside just to look for it, looking for it, they just ignored it or we just, we don't bother them, they don't bother us, that type.

KP: So you were aware that there was a Japanese side of town and a non-Japanese side of town.

TK: Oh, yeah, on account of the school. You could tell. I mean, they didn't come right out and say, "Hey, you guys stay over there," or they didn't... but it's there.

RP: It was expressed from the fact that you went to a segregated school.

TK: Yeah.

<Begin Segment 13>

RP: I wanted to ask you about other, any other restrictions. Now, your dad was no longer farming at that time, right? You were living in Florin, in the community.

TK: Yeah. So, well, anyway --

RP: What emotions, Tommy, did you experience when you found out that your family was going to be excluded, evacuated from Florin?

TK: Well, only thing we said was, "Well, you just have to wait to see what happens, what the government wanted us to do." That's about it. And my dad and my two sisters, at that time, they were, strawberry was just ready come out, so people were looking for workers to pick strawberries. So they went to help out the neighbors or whatever, so they went to work over there until we got word that we got to register.

RP: Now, some of your older sisters, had they already married and left?

TK: No, no. Well, the oldest one, Bertha, she had married earlier, but she died early, see, of some kidney...

RP: She died before the war.

TK: Yeah, before the war. She died in... see, I was a freshman, so she might have died in '39 or '40. She was only married about a couple of years, she didn't have any children or anything.

RP: So the... when the evacuation finally hit Florin, they used the railroad tracks as kind of a dividing line.

TK: Yeah. Right through the middle of town. We all thought we were going to go together, then when we read the thing, he says, "Hey, we're supposed to go to Marysville Assembly Center." And these other guys, they said, oh, they got to go to Fresno. We thought we all were gonna go to Fresno or something. He says, "Oh, man."

RP: You had relatives from the east side of the railroad tracks.

TK: Yeah, all the... they went to Fresno. We went to whatchacall, Marysville. But funny thing is, I had relatives Marysville, but they were in a different zone. They weren't affected at that time. See, we went to Marysville camp, we only stayed there one month, which, to me, was stupid. Why go all the way to... why don't we send it to Tule Lake, direct, just for one month? But anyway, we went to Marysville, and they asked, they called and said, "If you need anything," my relatives. "Yeah, we need a washboard. They didn't tell us to... just bring your clothes." Well, we found out that you had to wash your own clothes, so you need the old fashioned... so we told them to send us a washboard and a washtub or whatever. And then when we went to Tule Lake, we stopped at the town, and they were outside. They came to see us. So we talked to them from the train. Then later on, they joined us at Tule Lake. [Laughs] At that time, they weren't affected.

RP: Which relatives were these?

TK: That's my dad's niece and her family.

RP: Were living around Marysville?

TK: Yeah, right in the town of Marysville.

RP: You mentioned earlier, because the railroad kind of divided up the community, there were people kind of moving back and forth to try to join up with each other.

TK: Yeah. Like my relatives said, move over to their side, see. It's only for a couple of days, then we'd go together. You have to register, though. But says, "Well, we don't want to leave the minister by himself," so he says... of course, there were other members of our church there, but we were kind of close. So he says, "No, we'll go with them." So we went. So in Marysville, we were right next to the barrack. Not barrack, but the next apartment.

RP: To the minister?

TK: Yeah. And in Tule Lake, we were the next block away. Then I think... I'm trying to figure out... I only stayed in Tule Lake one year. We went, in '43, I said, "I gotta get out of here." I don't like the food, I don't care for... I said, well, you had to get a job to get out. So I'm looking every day, and said, "Well, there's a dishwashing job in the Hotel Sherman in Chicago," that's one of the bigger hotels. I'll go, I don't care about anything else. So I applied for this, they said, "Yeah, come on down." So I went. I was supposed to, somebody was supposed to meet me at the station, nobody was there. [Laughs] I go there, I said, "Hey, where am I supposed to go?" But before then, I'd heard from people that a lot of 'em stayed at the YMCA hotel on Wabash. So I'd go outside and I asked the cab driver, "Hey, take me to YMCA." "Oh," he says, "I've taken a lot of you fellows over there." He said, "Yeah, I'll take you over there," so he took us, took me over there and got me registered.

RP: Tommy, let's just backtrack a little bit. Your family basically followed the minister.

TK: Yeah.

RP: What was his name?

TK: Yonosuke, wasn't it? Yonosuke, Y-O-N-O-S-U-K-E, Sasaki. S-A-S-A-K-I.

<Begin Segment 14>

RP: Tell us about your experience, even though it was just one month, did you form some impressions or memories about your one month in the Marysville Assembly Center?

TK: Oh, man. The worst thing was, first thing you saw was barbed wire fence, and a guy with a tommy gun, and the gate. And I said, "Holy smokes," the first time I seen a tommy gun.

RP: Was this a fairgrounds or...

TK: No, I think it was just... it wasn't a fairground, it's just an open field.

RP: And they just built barracks?

TK: Yeah, they put barracks in there. I forgot how many. There was, I don't know how many people were there, but we had five hundred people to a block, five hundred people to a block. And the food was bad. They says, "Hey, if you work in the kitchen, you get maybe some extra food." [Laughs] So a lot of us volunteered to work as a dishwasher.

RP: You said that you were supposed to graduate three days after you were evacuated. What were your feelings about being denied that opportunity to graduate with your class?

TK: Oh, that kind of hurt, because all year, all four years, you looked forward to marching down the thing. We said, "Oh, man." Well, what are you going to do? It's government. So anyway, some teachers, they knew who was in that, so they brought the diploma and gave it to one of the girls. So we got the diplomas.

RP: The teachers brought 'em to...

TK: Yeah, some teachers. I don't know, I think she was a gym teacher, she and another teacher brought the diplomas to one of the girls, and she passed them out.

RP: In Marysville?

TK: Yeah.

RP: Ah, and that's how you got your diploma. Did you, later on in life, did you have a chance to attend a graduation ceremony in the '90s?

TK: Class of... what was it? Class of '92, that's fifty years, they invited the class of '42 to their exercise, see. And so a few of us went. I mean, not everybody came. Lot of 'em said, "Oh, hell with it," you know. So we went. Oh, out of 130, maybe thirty people, thirty students might have shown up. Not the Japanese, but the Caucasians. And at that time, I had lost my annual. I don't know who, where I lost it, but they had an extra one so I got one. And I was able to talk to some old friends. Before that, I think we had some reunions, so we met some of the old... but to go to the graduation exercise. But we didn't, they just... we just sat in the stage, and they didn't call us by name. They says, "Well, you could leave now," so we left, and they had their graduation next. But we didn't get our diploma then. Then later on, I think one of the students wrote and says, "Hey, we didn't get our diploma." But I said, "Yeah, we did, they gave it to us." But they wanted to... but I didn't go to that one. They had a separate graduation or whatever, but I didn't go to that one. 'Cause I says, "Hey, I already got my diploma," I said I don't want to...

<Begin Segment 15>

RP: Tommy, how did you and your family travel to Tule Lake? Was it by train or by bus?

TK: Tule Lake from Marysville? That's the train. From Florin to Marysville, you got on a bus at the depot, Florin depot. Then they took us to Marysville, and then from Marysville, well, we had to... I think it was bus to the train depot and then that was kind of, I don't know, overnight.

RP: Do you recall anything else about that trip? Were there military policemen in the, on the train as well?

TK: No, they didn't, they didn't come in. You know, those days, those trains, no air conditioning, oh, geez. It was so bad, even the regular civilian trains from Tule Lake, that went from Tule Lake to Chicago, god it was so bad. It was summertime or whatever, you had to open that... and all those trains, you open that thing, all the soot would come in, coal burning train. You look and it's all black, gee. That was bad. Takes about three days or something to go from Reno to Chicago.

RP: So how... when did you get to Tule Lake? Was it during the day or during the evening?

TK: I think it was in the morning. 'Cause by the time we left in the evening, they had, overnight in the dark, then in the morning sometime.

RP: Do you remember the shades on the train being drawn down?

TK: Yeah, it's always closed.

RP: For the whole trip?

TK: Yeah, it was always closed. You kind of look, but you can't see anything anyway.

RP: Can you remember anything about the atmosphere in the train? Were people very quiet wondering what was going to, "where are we going?" Did you know where you were going?

TK: Yeah, we knew we were going to Tule Lake. But you know, once you're on that, what else can you do? So we were just schoolkids. 'Cause I was graduated already, I was eighteen, so you know, just talked, sit down and talk, and sleep most of the way.

RP: Did you have friends from Florin that were also sent to Tule Lake with you?

TK: Yeah, 'cause lot of my friends' classmates, or people, high school, we were in the same block, Tule Lake.

RP: Which block was that?

TK: Block 20, Block 20. And Carol, she went to Manzanar. Come to think of it, it's funny, she lived on this side of the railroad, she should have...

RP: Gone with you.

TK: Yeah. Same side. They went to, I think they went to Manzanar. Well, they say, I asked some people, "How come," 'cause a lot of those people that went to Manzanar is from our church. And so I keep asking, "How come you guys went to Manzanar?" Well, one guys says, "Well, we registered late." They were still picking strawberries or something. He says, "I registered late, and people who registered late, they had to go to Manzanar." I said, "God, that's weird," thirty-some odd families. I think it was about 370 or something.

RP: A large group.

TK: Yeah.

<Begin Segment 16>

RP: Tell us about Tule Lake, your impressions of the camp and what you did to sort of adjust or kind of get settled in?

TK: Well, first thing we says, "Hey, we better work in the kitchen." [Laughs] Get better food. So lot, not all of us, but I volunteered for kitchen. So, but...

RP: What did you do in the kitchen?

TK: Dishwashing.

RP: That's all?

TK: Yeah, dishwashing. For sixteen dollars a month, I guess. [Laughs]

RP: Now, did you get to wash the pots, those big pots, too?

TK: You know, it's funny, all I did was wash dishes. Somebody else did the pots. Most of my other coworkers were, at that time, elderly men. So I was the only young guy.

RP: And in those days, they didn't have those automatic washing machines, did you?

TK: Oh, no, no. It's just, you know, those... what do you call those? It's those metal --

RP: Metal sinks?

TK: Metal sinks. About two or three. Yeah, it's one side you wash, and then you rinse.

RP: Did you work a specific shift like breakfast, lunch or dinner?

TK: No, you work there all day. You go for breakfast and lunch and dinner. It's not too long, just during eating times, and then after that, you're finished. But you got to be there. Then later on, this one lady, one gal in our block says she's looking for typists, work a night shift, and she had to type all these personal records up, all the people. I said, "Oh, I have typing, two or three years of typing." Said, "I'll come work for you." So I quit. And they came after us, right to the door, take us to the administration building, and we'll work at night. Then in the morning they bring us back, right to the door.

RP: So you worked all night?

TK: Yeah. But from about eleven o'clock to whatever.

RP: Graveyard.

TK: Yeah, and then about halfway, they take us to have a break in the night mess hall someplace. So I don't know how many of us, thirty or something, maybe less than that.

RP: Did your folks work in camp, too, or your sisters?

TK: My dad was a carpenter. He was a foreman of a crew that was covering up the inside walls with the plasterboard for ceiling. Yeah, he got nineteen dollars. Foreman got nineteen dollars, just like a doctor. [Laughs] Like us, sixteen dollars.

RP: One of your sisters also taught kindergarten, too.

TK: Yeah. I don't know if they taught kindergarten or what. She worked in a kindergarten, all the kids come in, they looked after 'em. And my other sister, she worked in the mess hall, waitress, with me.

<Begin Segment 17>

RP: So, and then the government began this policy of relocation in 1943, and you had an opportunity to apply for this dishwashing job in camp?

TK: Oh, you mean going to work in Chicago?

RP: Yeah.

TK: Well, they had these placement centers. You go in there, and they have all these list of places where you want to go, and what kind of job, how much they pay or whatever. You have to have a job to get out of camp, see. And then I had some friends from Jerome that went to Chicago, said, "Hey, I get to see 'em, I'll go to Chicago." At first, I was going to go to Salt Lake City. My sister that died, her husband (...), he was a photographer, he used to live in San Francisco. And he had a studio, he opened up a studio in Salt Lake City. So, "Oh, I'll go live with them." Then they stopped people from coming to -- or they had too many. They said, "We don't need any more." I said, "Oh, well, I'll go to Chicago."

RP: Would you say, you know, from your very first days at Tule Lake, you had an impulse to want to get out of camp?

TK: Not at that time.

RP: Later on.

TK: Yeah, later on, after one year. Like I say, the food got so bad, I says, "Geez."

RP: Time to go.

TK: No, 'cause later on, I found out -- I don't know if lot of people know this, but the Caucasian manager or something, the food, he was stealing the meat and selling it black market. And the reason they found out was he got in an auto wreck and the meat came out. They caught him.

RP: In Tule Lake?

TK: Yeah, from Tule Lake in the commissary or whatever, that outfit. So later on, I had this man come speak at our church in Florin, and I asked him, point blank, "Was it true that thing happened?" He said, "Yeah." Nobody know about it, too many people know about it, I guess. He was selling, no wonder, you know, like Sunday dinner, we only got two meals for Sunday. And you go for breakfast, and then Sunday, they gave us this slice of bologna or whatever, rice and something to bring home and eat that for dinner. Well, all the people, the guy was sending all the meat, so we didn't get any for Sunday.

RP: Yeah, directly affected you.

TK: Yeah. 'Cause when I went to visit her in camp [indicating wife], Sunday they had chicken. We had chicken, we used to raise chickens in Tule Lake. And the only time we had chicken was, I think, Thanksgiving and Christmas. That's the only time we had chicken. The rest of the time, we didn't have any chicken. I said, "Gee, how come we're raising chickens?" Here, that camp, every Sunday they had chicken. Then they had shrimp and stuff like that. We didn't get any of those in Tule Lake. The guy was...

<Begin Segment 18>

RP: Your timing in leaving Tule Lake was pretty fortunate because just a couple of months later, it became a segregation center.

TK: We didn't know it, we didn't hear anything about it. And then when I was in Chicago, this YMCA lady, she said, "Hey, Tom," says, "you know in your camp, you're gonna have segregation." I said, "Really?" I didn't know. So she showed me the article. She was real nice, and she showed me all these article about it. I said, "Oh, for pete's sake."

RP: "I got out of there just in time." So you go to work for this large hotel, was it the, what was it called again?

TK: Hotel Sherman.

RP: The Hotel Sherman. And you didn't last very long there.

TK: No, 'cause I was washing dishes, and there was a steward. Well, I don't know what steward does. He's in charge of something. He pulled me over and says -- he was a Japanese guy -- he says, "Hey, you don't want to wash dishes all your life." He said, "Go to this outfit. They're hiring a lot of Nisei like you guys, and they'll hire you. Go over there." So I went over there, said, "When can you start?" And I looked around, and man, there was a whole bunch of 'em. Then we found out that that summer, it was in the summertime, lot of, summertime you had all these kids from high school. Out of eight hundred in the whole plant, about four hundred were Japanese. They were hiring all the Japanese.

RP: Out of camp?

TK: Said, "If you know any Japanese, send 'em over." And they started off, started us off with five cents an hour more than anybody else. You know, I think you started out with fifty cents an hour, but they gave us fifty-five cents an hour.

RP: And what was the name of the company and what was --

TK: A.C. McClurg & Company.

RP: And what --

TK: Wholesale. Wholesale. Mostly giftware and books and stationery.

RP: So what were your specific duties at this --

TK: Well, first day, they had me receiving clerk or whatever, for the whole plant. But next day, they says, "If you want to go up to the sixth floor, they're looking for help up there." So I was filling orders and putting stock away. Then I just got going from there.

RP: You spent ten years with them?

TK: Well, I left couple of times to go visit the camp, you know. But from '43 to 1952, nine years. So I was one of the older guys.

RP: That was, it was almost like Seabrook Farms, they were hiring so many Japanese out of camp.

TK: Yeah. 'Cause Seabrook Farms, one of my relatives, he was hiring. I went to see my folks in Jerome, and one of my relatives, he was hiring people from camp.

RP: Your relative?

TK: Yeah, well, my relative's husband, actually. And my dad says, "Hey, I want to go to Seabrook Farms." Says, "Okay, I'll take you." So I went with him. We were the first group from Jerome. And I think, I don't know how many people from Jerome went. Ten guys or something. They had six guys from Amache camp there already, and we were the next group that went over there. Only thing is I didn't care for it 'cause I was making more than the foreman in Chicago. I said, "Gee." Then that place, it was weird, 'cause the union wasn't strong at all. And when it's busy, on Thursday, they said, "This week is a forty-eight hour week." That means you gotta work forty-eight hours or more to get overtime. So when it's busy, they changed their mind, they said, "This week is a fifty-two hour week, not forty hour week." So the five months I was there, only one time I get an overtime for what was it, half an hour. I says, "I don't want to... geez, I'm going to get the heck out of here." So after five months, I took off. But in the meantime, we called my mom and the rest of the family, so they were there. So I left.

<Begin Segment 17>

RP: Now, after Tule Lake was converted into a segregation center, your, rest of your family was...

TK: Well, my mom's sister that used to live in Fresno, she was in Jerome, and she wanted to go back to Japan. So she came to Tule Lake. My mom says, "Don't go back to Japan, don't." No, she won't listen. So anyway, she got to see her a few days. Then my mom left Tule Lake to go to Jerome, and here they came from Jerome to Tule Lake. And they went, too.

RP: Did they go back to Japan?

TK: Yeah. But the oldest two brothers, they're my age. Oldest one says... I think, I don't know whether he was drafted or not, but he's not gonna go back to Japan. So him and the second one, they stayed in America. They served in the army. All the rest had to go back to Japan 'cause they were minors.

RP: Were you drafted during this time?

TK: [Laughs] They missed me completely.

RP: Yeah, you escaped the radar. Tell us how that happened.

TK: That, I don't know. 'Cause every time I'd follow the orders or whatever, every time I moved, said, "I'll be in Seabrook Farms," "I'll be in camp," from so and so. I'd notify the draft board every place I went. And I don't hear from 'em. Pretty soon, I think the war ended or something. By that time I was married. Then finally, they sent me a 1-A card. Finally they sent me a 1-A card. So I said, "Well, okay." Then right after that, they stopped the draft, they stopped the draft. I said, "Well, okay." Then the Korean War started, so I had to register again. But by that time I was twenty-five, I was married, and they sent me a card, "You're too old." So they missed me completely. I didn't even get a physical, I didn't get... I said, "Oh, well."

KP: Tommy, were you in camp when the "loyalty questionnaire" came around?

TK: Oh, yeah, that was bad. You read it, and you don't know what it says. 'Cause, "Do I vote 'yes-yes,' 'no-no'?" The wording on it is weird. And so one of 'em I put "no," and one of 'em I put "yes." [Laughs] And they let me out of camp. But when I was in Chicago, they called me in the WRA office, said, "Well, we noticed you put 'no-yes.' You want to change it to 'yes-yes'?" And I said, "Yeah, I don't care, just change it." [Laughs] I said, "I didn't know what I was signing.

KP: Was there any discussion in your family or with your friends?

TK: It's up to me, you know. I mean, I'm the one that's getting drafted. But lot of our block, there was a lot of folks, especially the old folks...

RP: "No-no"?

TK: Yeah. Said, man, boy, I don't how they... I went to sign up already, 'cause I didn't want to be bothered. They knew that I already signed up. One of 'em says, "Hey, how come you signed up?" I said, "Well, the government says sign up, and so I signed up." They said, they didn't like it. But we had a meeting every night. Then finally, one guy got up, the younger guys got up and says, "Hey, it's up to the individual. Why have all these meetings? It's up to the individual, so just let it go." After that, no meeting, no nothing. But some of the old folks, they didn't, they wanted to sign "no-no." But funny thing, all the guys that, folks... there were some that got drafted, here I didn't get drafted. [Laughs] I don't know. All those guys all went. Says, "Better sign 'no-no.'"

RP: Kind of want to follow the story of the minister who was sent to Tule Lake, and your family went there, too. And then the minister ended up in Jerome when segregation...

TK: Yeah, I think so. I didn't see him. I usually see him, but where in the heck was he, in Jerome. I went for a visit... I'm sure they went to Jerome, 'cause they ended up in Tule Lake, I mean, Seabrook Farms, yeah.

RP: And that minister ended up marrying you in there.

TK: Yeah. 'Cause I went to visit my folks in Seabrook Farms, and I went to see... well, I used to love Mrs. Sasaki, see. And every time I go, she always makes me waffles. So I'd go, "Here I am," go in there. Then when we decided to get married, I said, well, since she was so young, I asked the reverend, "Can you write a letter to her dad saying we want to get married, and can I have a permission?" He said, "Okay," so he wrote, and next thing you knew, she was back in Chicago. I met her in Chicago, and we went back to Seabrook Farms, got married over there, then we went back to Chicago. [Laughs] Yeah. So then he died, I guess before we came back to California, I guess. But we kept in touch with the family. And every year, I used to go down to L.A., I used to drop in and we used to have dinner and all that. Then finally, she passed away with cancer. A few years back, the eldest daughter, she was one class ahead of me, she died of stomach cancer. But the rest of the family, all the younger brothers, he was in Chicago, New York, but he died. So the rest of the family is in L.A. We keep in touch, I mean, I call them and they call back. Just like a second family.

<Begin Segment 20>

RP: Later on, in 1988, this redress movement developed, and you had a part in that?

TK: Oh, yeah, we all did, JACL. See, like Tsukamoto, if you've heard of Mary Tsukamoto, oh, man. When she said "jump," we used to jump. [Laughs] Oh, yeah. She used to have to write letters and have all these meetings. She got us going. Actually, she's one of my relatives' wife. Like Carol, when you see Carol, ask her about Mrs. Sasaki.

RP: What were your, what were your feelings about receiving an apology from the government and the reparations?

TK: Well, to me, too bad they didn't give it to everybody, not just the live ones. They should have given it to everybody that went to camp, they should have given it to them. Either that or given us $50,000. We wanted $50,000 from the beginning, at first. But they said, "No, that's a little too much. They won't give it to us." I think somehow they knocked it down or whatever to $20,000. Yeah, at first, they said $50,000. But after that, they... I said, "Well, too bad my folks didn't get it."

RP: So just to wrap up our interview, can you tell us how your camp experiences -- and of course you weren't there very long -- but how did your camp experiences shape your life to come?

TK: It shouldn't happen to anybody. It shouldn't have happened to anybody. Well, with this war in Iraq, I could just see all those guys are scared. It could happen to them. They would grab everybody and put 'em in. But I think what happened, if war with Japan broke out now, I don't think we'd be put in camp, 'cause there's too many Japanese. Not just 100,000. Too many Japanese married to other nationalities, right? And you can't put everybody in camp. 'Cause at that time, even husbands and whatchacall, some of 'em, they came. We used to see Caucasian guys in camp, but they left early. They didn't stay too long. So yeah, if that thing happened now, you're talking, what, million, two million? I don't think they could do it. At that time, only 120,000, and all the politicians in California, oh, man. Especially Earl Warren, oh, man. He was bad. Lot of people don't know it. He was attorney general. He should have backed us up, but no. He was one of the first ones to... his son was all right. His son, I think, apologized, but not Earl. He never did. In fact, some of those guys that was in the JACL from Sacramento, they got called in. And then all those guys, they tried to say something, said, "You guys shut up." They were so mad, they wouldn't even let us talk.

RP: Tommy, on behalf of Kirk and myself and the National Park Service, thank you so much for a great interview.