Densho Digital Archive - Ayako Nishi Fujimoto - Kyoko Nishi Tanaka

<Begin Segment 1>

RP: This is an oral history interview for the Manzanar National Historic Site. This morning we're talking with Kiyo Tanaka, Nancy Nishi, and Aya Fujimoto. And our interview's taking place at the law offices of Stephen Youngerman, located at 11150 Olympic Boulevard in Los Angeles, California. The date of our interview is July 19, 2008. Our interviewer is Richard Potashin and our videographer is Kirk Peterson. Our interview today will be archived in the Manzanar site library. And do I have your permission to go ahead and record our interview?

AF: Oh, yes.

RP: Thank you very much for all coming together today. It was kind of a nice little reunion right out there in the lobby there. And want to ask all of you, first of all, to give us your date of birth and where you were born, starting with Aya.

AF: 1/28/30.

RP: Okay.

KT: February 26, 1927, in Los Angeles.

NN: June 25, 1936.

RP: I want to, want to get straight on your Japanese names, Nancy.

NN: It's Toshiko. T-O-S-H-I-K-O.

RP: And that was your given name at birth, Toshiko?

NN: Yes.

KT: Mine is Kyoko, K-Y-O-K-O.

RP: Okay.

AF: A-Y-A-K-O.

RP: A-Y-A-K-O. Ayako?

AF: Yes.

RP: And you had a few other siblings. Can you give us their names and their date of birth if you can recall it?

NN: Miyoko Oku, M-I-Y-O-K-O. Her married name is Oku now, he's deceased. But let's see. Her birthday was December... let's see, I get confused with Ayako's.

AF: Twenty-second.

NN: Twenty-second, wasn't it? Yeah, 'cause Ayako's on the nineteenth. It's the twenty-second, 19'... let's see, you were born on the twenty-eighth? Twenty-seventh?

KT: Twenty-seven.

NN: You were on twenty-seventh, and she's twenty-sixth. She's only a year, about a year younger, right?

KT: Yes.

NN: Oh, no, I take that back. Yeah, I guess --

KT: I don't remember.

NN: Yeah, I think it's twenty-sixth.

RP: Just four sisters.

NN: That's it. My poor dad. [Laughs]

AF: Yeah, he had a nursery business and no sons. Yeah, four daughters. Nancy turned out to be a girl.

NN: I was a... whoops, no. [Laughs] I shouldn't say that. I've got to be careful what I say.

<Begin Segment 2>

RP: Let's talk about your father. Can you give us his name?

AF: Kazuo, K-A-Z-U-O.

RP: Okay. And what do you know about his family background in Japan, first of all, where he came from and what his family did?

AF: Kazuo, he...

NN: They were --

AF: Kagoshima, huh?

NN: Yeah, Kagoshima.

KT: Kawanabe.

NN: Kawanabe-cho is the province that he came from. And they were, his father was, I think, in farming.

KT: He lost his mother.

NN: Yes, at six months, my father was orphaned and raised by his stepfather and stepsister. And at an early age, he apprenticed in a tailor shop and worked until he was eighteen. And left Japan at that time because one of his friends had encouraged him to come to South America where the opportunity was. And so he... I believe, it's only recently I discovered that looking through the legal papers that I got from the museum, that he left, he came to the United States at 1904. And I assume that he had gone directly to South America, but evidently he stayed here, he came here first at eighteen. And then I don't know how he made his way, but he went to Chile and stayed there with his friend. And he crossed the Andes and worked in Argentina in a munitions factory. And then he got another call from his friends from the United States urging him to join him here. And so he came to the United States, and he had mentioned that he had worked on a cotton farm in the San Isidro. Is it San Isidro? It's right above the border of...

AF: Mexico?

NN: Mexico. And then by the time he, he was about thirty-three, I guess he had felt that he should get married. And so he went back to Japan, married my mother, and my mother is from Kagoshima in the city. And so together, they met another countryman who also had a new bride, and he encouraged my father to join him on this particular ship back to the United States saying that the two women will have companionship and have some...

RP: Common ground?

NN: Yes, exactly. And so, so they did come back, and they landed in Seattle. And fortunately, they took that particular boat. My father had a later boat, but they took the earlier boat with his friend, and that was the last boat allowed into the United States. They had that...

RP: Immigration restriction?

NN: Yes, uh-huh, restriction on the Asian immigration into the United States. So we're American citizens, thank God. [Laughs] And then from there, I had asked him, "What made you come down south?" Because there were a lot of Japanese in that, Washington. And he says, "Well, for one thing, the weather is similar to Kagoshima," where they were raised. In addition, I guess because of his previous experience in working in this area, I think he felt that his opportunities were much, profitable here for his new family to be. And so they traveled down here with their friend, and they worked as seasonal farmers traveling from various cities depending on what the fruits or the vegetable was, or the flower were at that time. And gradually, he settled into the Venice/Culver area, and there was this housing, I guess they must have been barracks, several barracks where they were able to stay. And it was owned by a Mr. Culver, evidently. And from there, they did additional season work, and then finally, he found this German couple whose husband was infirm. And so the wife had asked if my father would help them out. And I guess it ultimately ended up that he was doing almost all the work, so he was asking if he might have a percentage of his, of the business. And I guess they declined, and so my father being somewhat resourceful, found this other property just around the corner. But unfortunately, because the legalities of them having ownership...

KT: They used...

NN: Yes, they put it into my sister's name.

KT: It was placed in my name.

RP: Your name?

AF: 'Cause she was born here, she was an American citizen.

RP: Citizen, right. Yeah, with the alien land law, and Isseis were not allowed own land, and then later on, not even lease land.

NN: Yes.

RP: So that was a way of getting around that. And how many acres did he purchase, do you know?

AF: Was it five acres?

NN: I don't think it was that much, was it?

AF: Oh, it wasn't that much?

NN: Well, it ultimately ended up to be about four. Wasn't it, Sam, about four acres, four-and-a-half acres or something like that? But initially, he just, by piecemeal, started off with a small lot, and piece of property, and gradually expanded, yes.

<Begin Segment 3>

RP: What was he growing primarily on that, on that land? This was Venice, right?

NN: Yes. And at that time --

RP: Celery was a really big crop.

NN: It was. They did have an association toward Culver City and in that area, and they did have farmers planting the celery in that area. And so my father did do celery, but he also did -- oh, this is right before the war in the '40s, early '40s -- I mean, late '30s. He went into gardenia because that was quite popular with the movie stars wearing the corsages and things like that. And so he did quite well with that, and was involved with the flower market. And then gradually he, as the popularity waned in that area, then he went into camellias, but that wasn't too profitable, and so he went into vegetables. And then he started to go into the celery seedlings which he did very well with. That's how he had expanded his business. But at that time, it was in... let's see. I guess by 1970, he was doing quite well, and so he was one of the first to buy, to have built one of the largest greenhouses on the West Coast. And they did a, they have a picture of him inside the greenhouse with celery seedlings on the cover of the... oh, what is that? I think it's the museum.

AF: Is that the one where's he's carrying you?

NN: Yes -- no, no. That's the gardenia one. I have a copy of that, have a picture of it in the album, can't remember the name of it exactly. A senior moment, I guess, sorry about that. But, so after that... well, is there anything you would like to add on?

AF: No, you're doing well.

RP: Actually, I'd like to ask all of you to share your, you know, your memories of your father. Obviously he was a very resourceful, hardworking Issei man, but as daughters, what do you remember most about your dad?

AF: Oh, he was very lovable. And I remember he just loved Nancy, 'cause she was the youngest one. And oh, he just enjoyed her so much. And I think he was a little bit miffed because he didn't have any sons, but when Nancy came, he just enjoyed her. And I used to see him smile from ear to ear, and he really enjoyed her.

NN: He loved all the children, actually. And he was very caring and very generous to the, all the girls.

KT: 'Cause I could remember his friends, the Issei friends, his friends, saying, "Gee, too bad, Mr. Nishi, you didn't have any sons to help you with the greenhouse." But he said, no, he never regretted, he'll never regret that.

RP: 'Cause in Japan, he came from a family, huh, he didn't have... he was orphaned, right?

KT: He was orphaned, his mother --

NN: Well, he had a stepfather, but he, his mother passed away.

KT: When he was six months old or something.

NN: Yes, of asthma. She had asthma.

KT: He was raised by his sister.

NN: His stepsister. And he had a stepbrother from what I recall. But I don't remember his name. I don't think they're living... their offspring, when we went back to Japan, when my mother's father passed away, this is in 1951. She took me back at that time, and it was still with the prop planes and things. Prior to that, my sister, the three of them, went back to Japan in 1935. And so they, Mother decided to take me back in '51. And so by the time we got there, they had the funeral and everything, but we had an opportunity to sightsee the various places from the onsens to, you know, the whole countryside of Japan. And at that time, we were able to contact the nephew, I believe, of my father, in the countryside. And so I recall going back there with Mother to meet with him, but it was very brief. So we really haven't had, didn't have too much of a time to get to know him. But I imagine he might have some relations back there which we, haven't connected with us yet.

RP: So your father returned to Japan in 1935?

NN: No, it's only my mother.

RP: Oh, your mom.

NN: Yes, uh-huh.

<Begin Segment 4>

RP: What are your memories about growing up on a farm? I imagine the house was right on the land there.

NN: I do have a picture of that, where we, the four kids. And they had an aerial shot.

AF: He was a very hard worker, and in fact, he had one of the most modern house, postwar, first to build a modern house.

NN: He had a --

AF: He was very successful.

RP: What was your house like before the war?

NN: We have a big -- oh, no, maybe I didn't bring that. [Laughs] But it was just a wooden house, and, with a garage attached to it. And behind the garage is where he had the packing house where he had this huge refrigerator where he would, for the flowers, for the gardenias. So, and he would work from sundown to sunset practically, and he would go to the markets early morning.

KT: Get up at one o'clock and go.

NN: But he had a hay fever problem, and so --

KT: Asthma and hay fever.

NN: Yeah, hay fever, and so you could hear, with the allergy, even with the flowers, he's still working with it. But you could hear him sneezing away. [Laughs] So he endured, and the Lord blessed him with that.

RP: Now, did you, did all of you have some responsibilities in working with the flowers on the farm?

AF: Not really.

NN: Not the flowers.

AF: Our parents never really pushed us physically.

NN: But actually --

RP: What did they push you into?

NN: Well, actually, it was -- getting back to working -- it was after the war, where Kiyo would help my father.

AF: Since he didn't have any sons.

NN: And then she went into nursing.

AF: Going into number one.

NN: And so my other sister would help out with the, in the office, and I would periodically help out as I got older.

AF: Oh, that's right, three of you.

NN: But not that much, but a little bit. And we had these women, at that time he was doing celery seedlings, and he had a group of, oh, I'd say about ten Issei women who would come, who would chauffeur them, pick them up, and they would work their eight hours, and then we would deliver them back to their home. And so that was part of our involvement.

AF: Yeah. My father never really pushed us physically to do any of the work.

RP: What did these Issei women do? Did they plant the seedlings?

NN: Yeah, the seedlings are very small sprouts. And they have this box of dirt, and you have to separate them.

KT: They would replant it in a uniform way. There would be 110 plants in a box. So from the seedling, they would plant it in the...

NN: Outside in the farms, outside in the fields.

KT: Right.

RP: But did he hire additional labor during the harvest time, other workers that helped him out on the farm?

NN: He had Mexican workers, and he was fairly fluent.

RP: In Spanish?

NN: Yes. I wouldn't say it's the best... [laughs]. But, you know --

RP: So did you pick up a little?

NN: It's, well, you do hear. And, but he was able to communicate with the workers, and so they did get along quite well.

RP: And he was part of a cooperative?

NN: No, no, he was on his own.

AF: My father was very industrious, so he just went on his own and he became very successful.

RP: How was his English?

AF: Terrible. [Laughs] Worse, I mean, I can't imagine to this day how he got so successful without any knowledge of English, but he did. 'Course, he hired people, but he had the brains enough to get along in that respect.

RP: He had a strong business sense?

AF: Oh, yes, yes, extremely.

KT: Yeah, I could remember my mother saying, "Your dad, he doesn't want to do anything for a penny, he wants to do everything for two cents." I mean, he was very ambitious and had big thoughts all the time.

<Begin Segment 5>

RP: How about your mom? Was she basically there in a supporting role? Was she out there on the farm as well and also raising...

AF: No, she didn't have to work, but she did it to be sociable with some of the workers. I remember she didn't have to work. My father never made her work, never pushed her.

RP: She got together with those Issei women? Chatted a little?

AF: Yeah, chat, chat, chat.

NN: When she came out here from Japan, I believe -- and there were moments that, when they would have a spat. And she would remind my father, "You told my parents that we would be working here." She didn't realize how hard -- because she was raised in the city -- how hard the farming work was. And so my dad was mentioning that when they were doing seasonal work, and I guess she wasn't as fast as some of the other women, so he would sort of help out her, help her out. [Laughs] And so there was great cooperation there. And in addition to that, she would say, when she was angry, "Yes, and I never expected to shovel manure all day long." [Laughs] So she had a tough work to do, but she did it. And they did quite well together.

KT: But he was a very generous man, though. Bought her fur coats and diamonds, 'cause he could afford it. But he was very generous to her, very good to her.

NN: I believe it's probably because he lost his own mother at such a young age. And so he just adored her. And knowing that she's the mother of his children, too, he was very good to her. But they compensated for one another. Because my father was quite stoic, but very gentle in heart. And my mother is the one that would communicate with the visitors that would come. And so they matched fairly well.

KT: Yeah, I could remember when people used to come and visit. My dad would sit in the conversation for a while, then he would excuse himself and leave everything up to my mother.

RP: So she picked up English a little better than he did, or what was it about her that...

AF: No.

KT: It was communicating with the Isseis, yes.

RP: That's "women's talk," right? Let's talk a little bit about your upbringing, being of Japanese ancestry growing up in America. Can you share with us stories about culture, holidays? Were you raised sort of an American way, Japanese, or a mixture of both?

NN: Well, within the community that they were in, in Venice/Culver area, they had a large congregation of Japanese community. And so my father was quite involved with some of the, they had a Japanese school. What they wanted to do was to perpetuate the language and have not the American-born, their American-born children forget the Japanese culture. So within a small area, they had judo, they had Japanese school, and some other activities. And it was, that was located near the Douglass Aircraft, I don't know if you're familiar with that area near the Marina Del Rey. And there's a creek that used to run alongside out into the ocean. But during the winter, it would flood. This is before they put up the, what is that? What did they call it now? Where they, it's terrain where it's concreted, where the water...

RP: Concrete channel?

NN: Yes, channel. And so it was all dirt with a creek running. And in the winter, I guess they always had flood which involved the church, the school. And so the parents would stack the chairs on top of the tables to avoid as much damage as possible, but I guess they got they got frustrated with that and located another place to have this community center. And so my father was one of the main contributors at that time, and so they established the -- it's called the Venice Japanese Community Center, and it's there to this day, continuing with the cultures of teaching the children culture, language, and arts, crafts, martial arts.

<Begin Segment 6>

RP: And I imagine that all the girls went to Japanese language school?

AF: Oh, yes.

RP: You had to.

KT: We had to. We were forced to.

NN: I went briefly.

RP: And so what was your attitude about, about going and about learning about your traditional culture? How did you accept that?

AF: Oh, I just took it as matter of fact, we had to go. So we went.

RP: Made the best of it?

AF: Oh, yes.

KT: We were told to go, so we went. I mean, we didn't know any better to fight them.

NN: I went after the war, very briefly. But my sisters were able to get piano lessons. Kiyo played the piano, according, and Aya, you played the piano, too, did you not?

AF: Well, I started to before the --

NN: And then my other sisters played the violin and I was too young. And so when we went into camp, that's where the, my mother had me start Japanese dancing lessons.

RP: And so the motivation for, for you getting into music mostly came from your mother?

AF: Yes.

RP: And was she musically inclined?

AF: No, not at all. She studied bread, that's all.

RP: But she wanted to give you sort of a well-rounded look at...

NN: Yes, I believe so.

AF: I think she enjoyed it.

RP: So you actually, did you have a piano in the house?

NN: Yes, my sister...

AF: She used to.

KT: Yes.

RP: When did you start playing piano?

KT: I must have been around six or seven. I started taking lessons, which I hated. [Laughs]

AF: Oh, I did, too.

NN: But also, she learned to play the accordion. And so when she was, oh, gosh, I don't know if you were about twelve or ten, there used to be a JACL within our community, and they would, the young Niseis would -- they're older Niseis compared to me -- but they would have these meetings, dinner meetings, and invite Mary Kageyama to sing as well as my sister to play the accordion. And so I borrowed one of their albums, and I did see her picture in there in the little news brief.

RP: That's interesting just because in an interview that we did with Mary, her and her sisters were all musically inclined and took lessons from their mom who taught music.

AF: Yes.

RP: Yeah, and apparently, just before the war, Mary and her sisters were sent by the JACL on a tour of some of the military bases in California, like the base near San Luis Obispo, Camp Roberts. I don't know if it's Camp San Luis Obispo. But they performed for --

AF: She was very, yes, she was very talented, Mary was.

RP: Uh-huh. So you knew, did you know the family when you were --

AF: Yes, oh, yes. I knew the younger sister, Tilly.

RP: Tilly, right. And they, of course, had some amazing voices.

AF: Oh, yes. She had a real clear voice.

RP: She still does.

NN: She's still singing, is she not?

AF: Yes.

RP: She sings for the, the high school reunion every, every year. So that's, that's a very nice connection.

AF: Yeah, they had nice voices, that family.

RP: And so periodically you would, you would play for these dinners?

KT: Yes.

RP: Once in a while?

KT: Then when we got into camp, I started accompanying Mary.

RP: Oh, you accompanied Mary?

KT: On the piano.

RP: On the piano?

NN: She also was in a...

KT: Jazz band.

NN: Western, Western band called the Sierra...

RP: That was the Sierra Stars.

NN: Yes, right. I don't know if you were in there or not. Were you in there, too? [Referring to someone off camera.]

AF: Oh, no, no, he was in the jazz band. He used to play the --

NN: Yeah, he was in the Jive Bombers, but there was another.

Off camera voice: She was always up at the music hall, Block 24.

RP: Block 24, yeah. We'll get to that in just a, just a little bit.

<Begin Segment 7>

RP: I just wanted to spend a little more time talking about your, your family background. Social events that you recall. Did your, was your family Buddhist? Was that your religion?

NN: Yes, they were.

RP: And were they very serious about their religion?

AF: Not really.

NN: They, because they didn't have a church in that area, this is before the war, the minister, the priest, would come to be invited to people's houses individually, and they would gather other members to come and have the, join in the service. And that was somewhat of a social situation, too, where they could enjoy the service as well as get together --

KT: Meeting other people again, meeting Niseis.

RP: Did you have some of these services in your house?

KT: Oh, yes. I remember afterwards serving tea and refreshment.

RP: Did you, did you ever play music for the services at all?

AF: No, no. but she used to play the piano and the accordion, huh?

NN: I don't think she did for the service. Did you?

KT: Not for the service, no.

RP: So it was a way of keeping --

KT: So they didn't, they didn't have singing at that time, during the service. People would just, the preacher would come, and we would just... actually, it was a social gathering as far as the people that came. And they always knew that my mother and dad would serve refreshments. I mean, it wasn't just tea and cookies, it was more than that.

RP: Are we, like, talking sake?

NN: Well, they would have an elaborate spread, is what she's saying, for them to enjoy.

RP: Oh, I see.

AF: My father was always like that. He had to have the best, huh? I don't know why, 'cause he didn't come from a very wealthy family or anything.

NN: Well, that might be the reason why.

AF: Oh, yeah. He came from a countrified...

KT: He would always stay for a while and disappear and go to sleep, because he went to the market, the floral market early. He had to get up at one to go.

RP: One o'clock.

KT: But quietly he would all disappear.

RP: The flower market was located in Los Angeles?

NN: Yes.

RP: And so he would, once a week, or every day, or...

KT: I think it was three times a week, wasn't it, Sam?

AF: Yeah, more than once, once a week.

KT: I thought it was Monday, Wednesdays, and Fridays.

AF: Oh, I don't remember that.

KT: He'd get up at one o'clock in the morning and go.

AF: Yeah, very early. He would --

RP: Did you ever happen to get up that early, or did he ask you go come with him?

KT: No. That's one thing about my dad. He never involved us in work.

AF: Yeah, we never had to work.

KT: We wanted to do it ourselves just to help out, 'cause we could see how hard he's working.

AF: Yeah, my mother and my father used to work real late, huh, at night.

<Begin Segment 8>

RP: So what did, what did you girls do for fun when you were growing up in your earlier years?

NN: Before camp?

RP: Before camp.

AF: Well, school mainly, so we didn't have much of a social life.

KT: I remember our schedule was going to school, grammar -- or not grammar school, but going to school, then we would meet at, stay at, meet at the corner where the bus, Japanese school bus would pick us up and take us to Japanese school. And then they would... I can't remember about coming home, how we got home.

AF: There was a bus.

NN: Quickly, school, the community center would have various activities, and they would also have church festivals, things like that. And I don't know if you've all been to the festivals, you know, Ondo and things like that. Did you go?

AF: Oh, yeah. I think so, can't remember too much.

NN: I was too young.

AF: Yes, she was just a little baby then.

RP: Nancy, did you get into this Japanese dancing before going to camp?

NN: No, not at all. While we were interned, there were, for the young people there were the Sierras or the jazz Jive Bombers, or they had these high school plays or these dances for the younger people, and so I feel that it was the older Isseis and some of the older Niseis who had been trained in Japan as well as some of the Niseis and some of the Isseis that were trained before being interned. They learned their skills in playing the shamisen, the Japanese instruments, or dancing. So when they got into camp, I noticed that with the activities for the young people, there were quite a few. But eventually, some of the other Isseis would start having small classes teaching dancing, and they were the contemporary type as well as the classical types. And so there were a few of these groups starting out, and that's where my mother had, had me enrolled. But I only, I had three teachers within that short period of time while we were incarcerated, but what they would do is with their students they would have these programs, like the recitals, and during that time they didn't have the auditorium, this huge auditorium at the very beginning. So what they would do is utilize the --

KT: Barracks.

NN: -- the mess halls. They would clear out the tables and benches and make a small room for the stage. And they would have the performers, students perform. And I found it quite ingenious of some of these Isseis and some of these older Niseis. Because with the limited sources that they had for costumes and things like that, there were a few people who did bring some of their kimonos and things like that, and, or some Japanese instruments. So when they would perform certain kinds of dances that were period or you have certain kind of, needing a certain kind of costume, they had to improvise. And so they would utilize certain kinds of materials that they brought in from, you know, from the outside, and they would sew it up. Or else the men would build props out of wood or paper. And you'll see some of the -- I think I may have a picture of some of the props that were made, that I utilized. But then, so, they were very resourceful and very creative.

And so they were able to -- and there was this man who was in the theater arts previously, I think probably in Japan, too, as well as out here. But when he was incarcerated here, in Manzanar, they, a lot of the people didn't have that kind of a makeup, and he had the supplies and he knew how to put the certain kinds of makeup that the character needed for a particular dance. And so he was Mr. Tanaka, and you would not speak back to him. It would be horrible if you had that tan when you were in the desert and you were always in the sun. Because that white, it's supposed to be a white porcelain skin, but with the tan, it turns out sort of grayish. [Laughs] So he used to get on us every so often. But he would do the makeup. But he also was very learned in some of the stage dramas. And so toward the end, he did put on some plays, and I have some pictures of him. And, but there was also this... some other couples that, who... I can't remember their names. But I believe they were, they were in their seventies, I believe. And they had worked in the movie industry out here for the silent movies at one time. And so I think Anna May Wong was it, or Sessue Hayakawa or something like that, where they needed certain kinds of period outfits or things, they would help out. So there was --

RP: They were in camp, too?

NN:-- they were a source of helping out with some of that.

<Begin Segment 9>

RP: I know you were all pretty young when this tragic event happened, but do you recall how you heard about the news of Pearl Harbor being bombed, and can you recall your, not your own reactions, maybe your parents'? How did the news affect you?

KT: I remember when I first heard about it... I can't remember... I believe he was the vice president of the bank where my dad banked. He came over -- and this was a Sunday -- he came over and he told my dad what was going on. He wanted to know if my dad would want to, to draw his money out. He said he'll make arrangements so he could draw his money out. Because he didn't know what was going to happen, they thought they would close all the accounts up for the Isseis. So I remember that, I remember it was on a Sunday when he came over.

RP: And was he able to do that? Did he draw his money out, do you know?

KT: I can't remember.

AF: I don't think so. I don't think he did.

NN: He was well-respected.

RP: The accounts were frozen.

KT: Oh. The accounts were frozen? Well, then he must have gotten it out because I remember when the, the officials from the bank came over and told my dad what was happening, and they wanted to know...

NN: Maybe it happened prior to the closure? Or was it immediately closed, do you know?

RP: I'm not sure how long after Pearl Harbor the assets of the Issei in Japanese banks were...

AF: Oh. Well, maybe he transferred it in your name, huh?

KT: I can't remember exactly what happened after that time. But I remember when the officials from the bank came, this one or two, one official.

AF: Because I know we had a business, so he must have put it in your name, probably.

KT: I don't recall.

AF: 'Cause he was probably afraid that they're going to...

RP: Right. You talked about the uncertainty of --

AF: Tie up his assets.

KT: But then you have to remember, even if my name was on there, I was a minor.

AF: I know, but we had the, we had Mr. Marion Wright, remember?

KT: Oh, the lawyer.

AF: The lawyer.

RP: The lawyer?

AF: My father got a lawyer immediately.

RP: After Pearl Harbor?

AF: Yeah, uh-huh, and put everything in her name, I think. I'm not sure, but I think that's probably what happened, yeah.

KT: I do remember the official from the bank that came over and wanted to know if Grandpa wanted to...

AF: Take his money out?

KT: Get his money out, I think rearrange it.

<Begin Segment 10>

RP: There were a series of events that took place right after Pearl Harbor, the first one being the round up of Issei leaders.

NN: My father was also. Because he was involved with the community.

RP: Community center?

NN: Yes. They came to the house -- and my sister might be able to elaborate a little bit more on that. But they came to the house and asked for Dad once, remember?

KT: Yeah, he was at another ranch.

NN: In the field.

KT: In the field.

NN: And so he was brought back to the house and told to pack one suitcase, and he was gone. But during that time, from what I recall you mentioning a while ago, Kiyo, she got very upset and started to --

KT: When they took my dad, I got so upset when I saw, when I saw them taking him out. And I just told them, I told them, "This is the United States of America. You're not supposed to be taking people out, just grab them and just take them away from the family." And I remember calling, "Where are you taking him?" I can't remember. But I do remember when they came and took my dad.

NN: And he was taken to Tujunga detention camp.

RP: Did you get a chance to visit with him?

KT: We had a -- I wasn't driving, I was too young to drive so I didn't have a driving license.

AF: My mother had...

KT: A friend's...

AF: Yeah, neighbor's...

NN: The family's community friends with their sons who are old enough to drive, and they were kind enough to chauffeur the kids.

AF: Four of us were young yet.

NN: But I never got in.

AF: Well you were just a baby.

NN: I only recall being in the car, waiting in the car.

AF: Oh, really, you remember that?

NN: Yeah, I don't remember going in at all. So I don't know if you did. Did you?

KT: Yeah. Well, I remember when he was first taken, we found out where he was taken, it was Tujunga, I guess. And I remember having a neighbor's son drive us over there. And I remember speaking to Grandpa, to my dad on the other side of the fence. We never got in to see him or anything, we just went to go see whether we could find out where he was, mainly. And I remember going to the camp. Getting out of the car and going to the fence, and Grandpa was there. Everybody was crying, because we didn't know what was going to happen.

AF: There were four girls, my mother had four young girls, you know, and no sons.

NN: And she also had to manage the nursery.

AF: Yeah.

NN: And so it was quite hard for her. And then the Executive Order 9066 came about, and so it was a matter of packing, yes. So it was quite traumatic for my mom, I think. And for my sisters, too. I think she would --

KT: Well, especially for my mom, because she had all girls.

NN: -- they would be the language...

KT: The eldest being... gee, how old was I at that time?

NN: You were about fifteen when you went in camp, I think. And Miyo was fourteen, and you were twelve, and I was six, or five, six, close to six.

RP: And so between the time that your dad was taken and the time that you were evacuated, how did that work out? Was it a period of confusion and turmoil?

AF: Oh, I'm sure it was for my mother, yeah. Because she had the neighbor's sons, who spoke, who was bilingual, help her.

RP: Somebody stepped up and helped her with the farm?

AF: Well...

RP: Or just helped her with the --

AF: She had a lawyer mainly, I think, do everything.

NN: Well, you know, my dad was very fortunate. When we had to go into camp, in comparison to some others who had to just sell their nursery or just --

KT: Give it away.

NN: Yeah, vacate it, and just leave it for lost. There was a man by the name of Speakman who was also a farmer, and he was kind enough to offer to take care of the place while we were all incarcerated in Manzanar.

AF: Oh, that's right. Because my father had another nursery.

KT: Mr. Speakman had a nursery in Hawthorne where Grandpa was... I guess he must have leased it out or rented it or something. So that's how he met Mr. Speakman.

RP: Oh, your father had another nursery in --

KT: In Hawthorne. Because we were in Culver City, or in the Venice area, and then he found another --

NN: He also had one in the, near the Marina Del Rey area, did he not? What's his name? Nakashima or something? Did he borrow that greenhouse?

KT: No, Nakashima, Mr. Nakashima had a... he had a nursery in, wasn't it in Oxnard?

AF: Yeah.

NN: Oh, no, no. I mean --

AF: Tokujira.

KT: Oh, is it Tokujira.

NN: Okay. That was where the new...

KT: Near the gulley or the creek?

NN: Is that where it was? Oh.

AF: It could be because he was Kagoshima, too.

NN: Yeah, the countryman.

AF: Fellow countryman.

RP: Were there, were there quite a few folks from Kagoshima?

AF: Not too many.

NN: Yes, there was the Miyaji in Hawthorne.

AF: Oh, yeah, in Hawthorne.

NN: They came together. He and his wife and my mom and dad came to the United States at the same time.

RP: Oh, is that the other family?

NN: The other couple, right. And they settled, I don't know what happened prior to that, but they did settle in the Hawthorne area, and he was doing some greenhouse... I think he was also doing vegetables, was he not? And so periodically the family would go visit them as well.

<Begin Segment 11>

RP: I'd like to get back to this direction that we're going with evacuation, and a Mr. Speakman took over the nursery. Was that all the nurseries or just...

NN: He just watched the place. There was nothing growing, there was no product, but he was just, it was just a matter of just staying in the house.

KT: And watching the places.

RP: And making sure that nobody...

NN: Right. But with greenhouses, you know, the glasses are so fragile. There was quite a few damages that my father, I know, had to repair. But...

RP: Did your father have to leave crops and things?

NN: Yes.

AF: I think by that time, he was going into gardenia.

KT: But then he had to leave everything as is. He didn't have a chance to...

AF: So he had gardenia plants growing in the greenhouses, I remember, when we left.

RP: So you were very fortunate to have had somebody...

AF: Yes.

KT: Yes, we were. We were very lucky.

RP: That's your economic --

KT: 'Cause at least we had a place to come home to.

NN: And the others within our community who lost their place, that's where they were housed, at the VJCC, the Venice Japanese Community Center. And they, the classrooms, it was just a long string of bungalow. And what they used to do is partition sections off for families with blankets or sheets, and they had army cots, and they would stay inside the classrooms. And they also had, I think they had it in the, they had the kitchen area, the old kitchen, before they renovated it.

RP: This is after...

AF: And they also had tents set up on the grounds to house the people coming back. And so once they... and the ones, they, Mr... was it Bishop? He was Christian minister who was there, I recall, assisting with whatever needs that was needed by the people.

<Begin Segment 12>

RP: What else do you recall about that period before you left to go to Manzanar? What other arrangements were made for... you pretty much stored everything, or everything stayed where it was? You didn't have to store any furniture or anything else, did you?

AF: No, I think my father did store his new car in Little Tokyo, in a garage. That's right, we just bought a new car, well, he did.

RP: That's such a common story I hear.

NN: Oh, is that right?

RP: Yeah, farmers or Issei dads were doing really well at the time the war broke out, and they showed it by purchasing a new Chrysler or something.

AF: Yeah, it was a Chrysler. [Laughs]

KT: That's right, it was a Chrysler.

AF: He bought nothing but Chryslers, I remember.

RP: Well, do you recall the day that you had to assemble, and where did you assemble to go to Manzanar? Did you go by bus?

AF: Yes. It was at the Japanese school, our brand new Japanese school community center.

NN: Oh, was it there?

AF: Wasn't it?

NN: No, I don't know.

KT: I remember getting on the bus over there around Venice and..

NN: Lincoln, wasn't it?

AF: Yeah. But I think a lot of people went to Venice.

NN: From Venice, the gakuen?

AF: Gakuen, uh-huh.

NN: Oh, I see.

AF: And then, but we went to, yeah, you're right, in Venice somewhere.

KT: All I could say is I was amazed to see all those Japanese people in one place. Oh, I couldn't get over it. I'll never forget that feeling, you know, when we went on the bus, and when the bus drove into Manzanar we were sitting there, and see all these Japanese people. I couldn't believe it.

RP: Now, Kiyo, you just had started high school? You were about fifteen or so?

KT: Yes. I was in the ninth grade. I started in the ninth grade, huh?

AF: Yeah, we started in the ninth grade high school, yeah.

KT: When I went to camp.

RP: And both of you were in grammar school?

NN: I went to kindergarten and first grade.

AF: She was young.

NN: I started off in kindergarten.

AF: I was in the sixth grade.

RP: So was it difficult for you to give up your friends or school? What kind of feelings did you have of losing the...

AF: No, not particularly, but you must have, huh? 'Cause I was only in the sixth grade.

KT: Gee, I don't, I can't recall.

NN: Oh, Betty, Betty Jean and...

AF: Oh, our neighbors.

NN: Shirley Mae? They were Caucasian friends.

KT: Shirley Mae Blake and her sister Betty Jean Blake, I remember them across the street.

AF: Our old time neighbors we grew up with.

RP: Was anybody there the day that you left, or did they come over and offer words of support, or anybody?

KT: No. The only person that I could think of in that way is the bank... I can't remember whether he was a bank manager or what. But I remember it was on a Sunday, and he came over, and that's when we first found out about Pearl Harbor.

NN: I remember they -- oh, I'm sorry. Go on.

KT: I remember... what was his name. I remember him telling Grandpa that they might confiscate or close his accounts, and so they wanted to know -- he said that he would make arrangements for my dad to go there and get his assets out, I remember that.

AF: Oh, you do?

NN: And I remember the air raid warden coming over. And I remember receiving a doll from him.

KT: A doll? Oh, is that right?

AF: You were only five or six, huh?

RP: Leading up to Pearl Harbor and after Pearl Harbor, did you see any discernable signs of...

KT: Bigotry?

RP: Discrimination, bigotry, signs in stores maybe in Venice or Santa Monica or something, "No Japs Wanted" or that kind of thing? Was it pretty blatant or did you feel any of that after Pearl Harbor.

AF: Well, you were too young, huh? And I was just in the in between stage so I don't remember too much of it. But did you remember?

KT: I remember the Mandamakers across the street. There were two dairies, Rondos had a dairy and Mandamakers had a dairy.

RP: Oh, that's because they had sons in the Navy.

KT: His son was in the Navy and got killed, and so it was kind of very uncomfortable for us.

NN: So after the war, when we came back, there were two dairies in front of our house, dairy farms. And one dairy farm, the Rondos, had a son that was close to my age, so I would go over there to play. So they have a wooden fence separating theirs from the Mandamakers, and so we were on the fence looking at this pool, and Mr. Mandamaker came out and just cussed me out. And I got so frightened, I just dashed home. Yeah, I remember that. But later on, I remember, I can't remember, maybe it was a year or two afterwards, there used to be a Japanese market where we used to all our shopping. And I did see him in there, and so I thought, "Oh, I guess he had a change of mind." I was so, I was so, I think, sort of scarred by what had happened before, so I just didn't say anything to him.

AF: That's because he had sons probably that was killed at war.

NN: Yeah, exactly.

AF: So it's understandable, yeah.

<Begin Segment 13>

RP: Talk about your first impressions of Manzanar, the first few days you were there. What struck you the most about the camp? If there's a certain sight, sound or smell that Manzanar evokes for you.

AF: The mountains. The snow and the mountains and fresh air. Of course, I was so young, eleven, twelve. You were so young, too.

NN: Well, I do have recollection, and I don't know why. The only image I have is at night, we were walking past the barracks, and I don't even know where we were going, whether we were headed home or going somewhere else, but you see the, because the barracks are made out of black tar, it's black. And so they had these windows, and there's the warm orange light piercing through, and there's a door slightly open, but I hear this child crying as if she's in pain. And that really didn't give me too much of a comforting feeling. But aside from that, I think the mountains were beautiful.

AF: Oh, yeah.

NN: I used to love to want to draw that.

AF: There's snow on the mountains. And the firebreaks.

NN: Oh my gosh, those dust storms were horrendous to our legs and to our faces. And remember the dust storms, when we're inside the cabin, you'd see this fine silt.

AF: Oh, you remember that, yeah, yeah, yeah.

NN: Windows, on the edges of the windows, coming through.

KT: It was no use sweeping. So my dad used to get a hose and just wash it, the floors.

RP: Many Nisei who were kids your age or even younger, they recall their experience as kind of an adventure of leaving Los Angeles and going somewhere mysterious.

AF: I guess it depends upon the age you are.

KT: I never looked at it as an adventure.

RP: How did you see it?

AF: She's older, so she, probably impacted you more.

KT: To me, maybe it's unfair to say this now, but then it was, it was exciting. 'Cause like I say, I've never seen so many Japanese, and people my age in one place. So it was something that, I could tell it was something that was going to open a new era for me.

RP: Because you were raised on a farm, kind of, bit of a sheltered life?

KT: Well, we were kind of raised in a sheltered life, I guess, but then, but for me to go to camp and see all these Japanese in one place, that, I'll never forget that feeling or that thought.

RP: And you resided in Block 14?

NN: Yes.

KT: 14-13-1.

RP: The whole time you were in camp?

NN: Yes, uh-huh. My father joined us later.

AF: Yeah, 'cause he was...

NN: In camp.

RP: Where did he, where was he sent after Tujunga? Did he to go Santa Fe, or...

AF: No, he didn't go there.

KT: New Mexico, wasn't it New Mexico?

NN: Well, he never talked about his experiences there. And I remember my dad having this dark black hair. I mean, very beautiful. But when he came and joined us in camp, he had lost all his hair, and I think it's come kind of major stress that caused that.

AF: Oh, that's right, that's right.

NN: So it took a while for it to ever grow back in.

RP: How long was he gone, roughly?

KT: I can't recall.

RP: A year?

NN: Probably about a year and a half maybe, you think?

KT: Gee, I don't know.

NN: I don't know for sure.

RP: Did you, did you write him periodically, or did he write you?

AF: No, because he's not the type to communicate too much, and we didn't know Japanese, and that's all he spoke. He was mainly Japanese spoken...

RP: So he's out there somewhere and you don't know what's going on.

NN: Mother didn't know either, so it was very...

RP: That's traumatic.

AF: And she didn't drive, so that was another thing. And I remember we had to get one of our neighbor's sons to visit him one time.

KT: Oh, that was before we left for camp.

AF: Uh-huh, before we left for camp, yeah. I remember, 'cause my mother didn't drive at all. The one experience she had, she had an accident, remember, going down the hill? And that was the end of her driving.

NN: My father delivered the gardenias to the various florists, and this was in the Hollywood Hills area. And evidently, the brakes didn't hold. And so she was in the car while he was making the delivery, and evidently the car rolled down and crashed into something. Fortunately, it wasn't that severe of an injury.

AF: No, it was not.

NN: But it was traumatic. [Laughs]

AF: That was the end of her driving lessons.

NN: Oh, she was having driving lessons then?

AF: She was going to or something.

NN: Oh, really? That I didn't know.

AF: Yeah, but she never got too far. She got the neighbor's sons to help her, thank goodness.

<Begin Segment 14>

RP: This is tape two of a continuing interview with Kiyo, Nancy and Aya. And we were talking about your early, early impressions and memories of Manzanar. You lived in Block 14, and interestingly enough, that's the block that the Park Service has designated as a demonstration block, which means that when we reconstruct buildings, they'll be in Block 14. And so we've already started working on a mess hall building. Not an original building, but one that we brought in.

AF: Oh, how interesting.

RP: So I want to kind of get a really good picture of Block 14, so we can perhaps use some of your stories and information to work out panels, exhibit panels about life in camp. So let's start talking about your barrack, your room. Things were pretty sparse when you first got there? And how did your room change over time in terms of curtains or... I know a lot of people ordered furniture and other items from the Sears & Roebuck catalog. Can you talk a little bit about that one room where your family lived, and what do you remember about it?

AF: It was very sparse, I remember, at the beginning. But my mother had brought in our furnitures that we had stored in L.A. somewhere, and she brought in, like, our beds, I remember. And I can't remember what else.

KT: It was very difficult for her at first.

AF: Yeah, because she was by herself. My father was... and there was four young girls.

RP: Young girls, and nobody to build any furniture.

AF: No.

KT: Right.

AF: No boys in the family either.

RP: Did you, did you have to share your barrack room initially with another family?

AF: Yes, initially.

RP: And was that a family that you knew?

KT: No, not the room itself, because the rooms were, the barrack was partitioned, right?

AF: No, no, at the beginning there was a young couple, young couple.

NN: That's what I thought.

RP: That you didn't know?

AF: No, we didn't know at all.

RP: And so, did you put up a...

AF: Yeah.

NN: Curtain.

RP: Curtain or a blanket or something. And over time, did you see any changes in that room?

AF: Oh, yes. Over time, I think they left, and my mother... and my father returned, so we got a little bigger room, I think, slightly bigger.

KT: And I remember him putting a curtain between the, the bedroom was one side of the curtain, and the other side...

AF: There was a potbelly stove.

KP: What was the curtain made out of, do you remember?

AF: Oh, bedspread or something, huh? It's probably got through Sears Roebuck somewhere. [Laughs] I think it was an old bedspread or something.

RP: Do you remember sleeping on those straw mattresses for a while?

AF: Oh, yes.

RP: How was that?

KT: Well, I guess it was uncomfortable, but we were so young...

AF: Yeah, we were so little.

KT: We just took it for granted, I guess.

RP: I'm sure it was uncomfortable for the older people. So you eventually go your own beds shipped in?

AF: Oh, yes.

RP: That was nice.

NN: Did we get beds shipped in?

AF: Yes.

RP: I saw a few photographs in your book that showed some nice landscaping around your barrack. Is that something your dad did? You did some landscaping around the barrack?

KT: Well, the built a Japanese garden.

AF: Are you talking about in camp?

KT: In front of our barracks.

RP: In front of your --

AF: Oh, I don't think my father did it, did he?

NN: I think he did. There were some flowers, and I think there was, like a lawn. I don't know if that lasted very long, though.

AF: Probably not, in the desert.

NN: But there is that picture of it. It's a picture, you know, of Kiyo and Miyo and Yuki.

KT: This is in Manzanar?

NN: Yuki and... right in front of our...

KT: Was it a garden?

NN: There's a small picture of the four of us, too, in front with the same kind of...

AF: Oh, really?

KT: I don't remember.

NN: And in the background is the mountains. But it's slightly faded.

AF: Oh, really? I have to look at that.

<Begin Segment 15>

RP: Did you have other folks from your community who were located in Block 14? Other Japanese Americans?

KT: The Aoki family... Aoki?

AF: Iyoki.

RP: Iyoki?

AF: Uh-huh.

NN: Sus. Were they in that family?

AF: Yes, Sus.

RP: Oh, yeah, Sus. Yeah, that's right, he was in 14.

AF: Yeah. He was her age, huh?

KT: I believe so.

AF: Yeah, you were in the same class.

RP: There was another family that was in 14, the Nagano family?

AF: Oh, yes, Masako.

RP: Right, and Joe?

AF: Joe, yeah.

RP: And his sister was Masako?

AF: Masako, yeah.

RP: And I think they lived in 14-12, which would have been the...

AF: Yeah, at the end, I remember.

RP: Right, the building next to you.

NN: Is it the Nagais?

AF: Nagano. Masako Nagano. Remember Masako? We used to walk to school every morning together.

NN: The Nagai used to live close by, too. I thought they were next door.

AF: Naganos...

KT: Not Nagano, but Nagai.

AF: Nagai, next door, yeah.

NN: Richard and Kazzie Nagai, and her sister.

KT: Yoshiko.

NN: Yoshiko. And a brother, I can't remember that name. I thought they were next to us.

AF: Yeah, they were next door, right.

RP: What do you, what else do you remember about the block? Were there any basketball courts, gymnastic equipment, anything else that you remember Isseis or Niseis constructing for the kids?

AF: Well, there was a basketball court.

RP: In 14?

AF: That's all I could remember. And Laundry room...

RP: Do you remember a small wading pool, concrete wading pool in Block 14?

KT: I don't remember any pool.

NN: But I do remember that, I had mentioned previously about the snow during the winter, where they had stacked all the snow on, like a slope. It was near, I think it was in the direction of those basketball courts, so I'm assuming that it may have been around that area. But people would toboggan down.

AF: Oh, really? Oh, I don't remember that.

RP: So that was your first experience with snow?

NN: Oh, yes. [Laughs]

RP: At Manzanar?

NN: And made a great impression. Cold, chilly impression.

RP: Yeah, just the change of environment was pretty drastic for you and everybody else.

AF: So windy and sandstorms.

KT: I'll never forget the wind, sandstorm.

RP: The winds are still there.

NN: I imagine so.

Off camera voice: There was that home movie that showcased tobogganing down the snow hill.

RP: That's right.

NN: Oh, is that in, was it 14?

Off camera voice: I don't know if it was 14.

NN: That's what I, I don't think it was 13. I think 13 had the fire engine.

RP: Fire engine? You remember that?

AF: Uh-huh, I remember that, too.

RP: Do you? Did you ride around in it?

AF: Oh, no, no. They would never give us a ride. Or they never asked us, anyway.

NN: But I remember there was this Indian chief, I think it was Chief Thundercloud, that came to visit our elementary school.

RP: In Manzanar?

NN: It was, oh, it was really exciting to see him with this huge bonnet on, feathered bonnet, oh, it was so colorful. And, you know, he's so strong and so stoic. It was really fun. That was wonderful. I imagine there was some Indian tribes in that area.

RP: Right, not normally associated with these huge head bonnets. So that was a morale boost.

NN: It was, for the kids.

RP: For the kids?

<Begin Segment 16>

RP: What else did you do around your block? You made friends with kids in your block, or did you go to other blocks?

AF: I remember one day, the YMCA had established a group of young women and probably men, too, but I remember the women because I was mainly in the group. And they established little groups of girls clubs. And so my sister and I were the same, almost a year apart, so we joined a group.

RP: Which group was that?

AF: Forget Me Nots.

RP: Forget Me Nots?

AF: Oh, you know them?

RP: I know a few of them, and now I know you. And that was you and...

AF: My sister Miyo.

RP: Miyo.

AF: Uh-huh, she's not here.

RP: Okay.

AF: And that was set up by the YMCA I remember. YMCA, we were going to have a group, and we're going to establish clubs. So my sister and I went there, I didn't know what was happening. But anyway, she says, "We're going to join this group," and so I says, "Okay." I didn't know what was going on at that time. So anyway, so she and I joined this group called Forget Me Nots, and to this day, we're a fairly close group.

RP: How many girls were in that club?

AF: Oh, about up to ten or something like that. It was a YMCA established group.

RP: And tell us some of the things that you did.

AF: Oh, we had dances, that's all I remember.

RP: Dances in the mess hall?

AF: Yes, uh-huh, in the recreation hall primarily.

NN: In sports, too.

KT: Oh, yes, we used to play the, blow the horn there.

AF: Oh, yeah. And my sister used to play the accordion piano, 'cause there weren't too many musicians in the group, in the camp. Because they were so young, I guess, when they first came.

RP: What do you remember about the dances?

AF: Oh, it was a lot of fun. [Laughs]

NN: Wasn't there a, it's like a USO for the young men that were coming back?

AF: Oh.

NN: And they used to, the clubs, I think, used to be involved with that. Because I remember --

AF: Oh, I think it must have been the older girls, because we were just young, preteen.

NN: Well, somebody, one of you was working there, and they used to make sandwiches. I would get small pieces of it. [Laughs]

AF: Oh, is that right?

NN: And then I believe it was in Block 20 they had this outdoor movie.

RP: Outdoor theater?

NN: Uh-huh. And so we'd dig a hole and put the blanket and lie down and watch it.

KT: In the firebreak.

RP: And there was another club that formed called the Funsters.

KT: Oh, I remember the Funsters. There was the Funsters and the Twixteeners, and... gosh.

NN: There's Modernaires and some others, but you were...

AF: They were a little bit older group, huh?

RP: When these clubs get together and put on dances, or was it just each club had its own kind of activities?

KT: They had their own activities, I would say.

RP: And did you have a sports team associated with the Funsters?

KT: I don't remember. Not associated with clubs, I don't think.

RP: Were you on a, were you on a team in camp? Baseball team or softball team?

AF: I think the younger girls my age, we had a team, baseball team.

RP: The Forget Me Nots?

AF: Yeah, uh-huh.

KT: I know they had baseball.

AF: Although I wasn't very athletic.

RP: So you keep in touch still with the girls in the...

AF: Oh, yes, we used to get together every once in a while. We haven't done it lately, however, but we did for a while.

NN: I have an interesting situation where in my third grade -- oh, this is after the war, I mean, after the war ended, it was in the seventies. One of my girlfriends had a friend who just got her counseling degree, so she wanted to have a class within, at her home, so that she could experience counseling. So it was on assertive training, so they had, there were about six of us that went. And I met this girl there, and she said, "Gee, you look so familiar." And I said, "Oh." She says, "Were you in Manzanar?" I said, "Yes." "Were you in the third grade?" "Yes." "Was it Mrs. Seiko Ishida's class?" I said, "Yes." Said, "Do you have a picture of the class at home?" I said, "Yes." She said, "Go home and take a look." And lo and behold -- she's so sharp -- and there she is and there I am on there. And so after that class, this was in the seventies, so we got reacquainted again after that, and we've been very close since.

AF: Who's that?

NN: Margie Motowaki was her maiden name, but she's Wong. And it was nice to be able to spark that relationship. And then right after the war, too, there people that were moved into the west Los Angeles as well as in our area. So there were four kids who had gone to Manzanar who I wasn't that familiar with as much before, and we went through elementary, junior high school and high school together. And we still have that relationship going, too.

RP: Yeah, that camp experience bonds so many friendships.

NN: It did, yes. So there's some positive from that.

AF: Yes, because I came from, we came from a neighborhood of all, hardly any Japanese in our community, so when we went there, it was really unusual.

KT: I still can't get over when I think about camp, all the Japanese faces.

AF: So see so many Japanese. 'Cause the only people that we knew that were Japanese community was in Japanese school, but that was only, although ours was every day after American school, but still, it was not enough to feel close bondship. So it was nice when we got into camp and we were able to build lot of close friendships and groups. And I remember the YMCA had got all these young, young women together and divided into, I guess, similar experience or age group. And then we, to this day, we get together, this YMCA group.

RP: Did some of the clubs also kind of support helping out the young kids in the camp? Like supporting activities or like...

AF: Well, I don't know, maybe your group did. Because we were too young, we were only twelve, eleven, twelve years old. So we didn't do that type of work.

NN: It's my understanding that the older Niseis, when we first got into camp, because there was no structure for the educational training for the young children, a lot of them, I think, volunteered their services to establish some kind of a service, and was able to get books from outside the camp to get that going. And it's my understanding that there were other areas of service that, like the engineers or the carpenters or the interpreters, they would volunteer the services. And I imagine a lot of them were eventually given some kind of compensation for other services afterwards.

<Begin Segment 17>

RP: How much freedom did you have as kids in camp? Some folks say, "You know, we had too much freedom," the family kind of disintegrated a little bit in terms of being close. And I think the most important observation that people have mentioned in that regard is that families didn't eat together in the mess halls, and kids went out and came with their friends. Did you sense a drifting apart of your family? Of course, your dad wasn't there for a year, or did you come closer together?

AF: Well, my mother was by herself with four girls, so nothing but females. We never had that problem, huh?

NN: I believe that my three older sisters, being close in age, had friends and things like that in common. So they were, had a lot of social activities. But myself, being by myself, I wouldn't say that I... I had a few friends around our block, but nothing really as much as they would have, being young.

AF: That's right. Three of us, three older sisters were close in age, one or two years apart. But Nancy was six years down the road.

NN: But I did learn how to jitterbug and sing some of those dance tunes that they were playing.

RP: Well, how about boys? Did you date at all, Kiyo? Did you have any boyfriends in camp? I saw a few pictures of them over there.

AF: Yeah, she used to play in the jazz band and all that. Oh, in fact, there's an ex-jazz bander, trumpet player over here.

NN: She was also one of the princesses when they had -- was that the class? I think it was the class queen.

KT: You could forget that. [Laughs]

NN: But we do have a picture of that, too, where she's one of the princesses.

RP: So what was the attitude towards dating in camp? Did your mom allow that?

AF: I guess so. She didn't, she didn't say anything.

KT: No, I don't remember.

AF: Of course, we weren't the type to go haywire or anything. So she didn't say anything. And my father wasn't there.

NN: Do you think it was more group gatherings?

AF: Yeah, we were, we had --

RP: Kind of a group, watched over each other.

KT: I think our social life had a lot to do with the clubs that we belonged to.

AF: I remember the YMCA got the children together, girls together, and say, "We're going to form an organization." So I remember joining a group, my sister and I joined a group, and Kiyo joined a large older group. And Nancy was too young.

KT: I mean, there isn't anywhere, even if you dated, where would you go? [Laughs]

RP: Merritt Park. [Laughs]

<Begin Segment 18>

RP: Well, let's talk about music in camp, since we have some musicians here right with us today. Kiyo, how did the Sierra Stars group get going?

KT: Sierra Stars?

NN: That Western...

RP: That you played accordion for?

KT: Yeah. I really don't recall. All I know is just someone...

AF: Right there. He might know, huh? [Referring to someone off camera.] Did you start it?

Off camera voice: No. Bill Wakatsuki started that.

RP: Oh, Bill did?

AF: Oh, Bill.

Off camera voice: Bill was a... was he an instructor up at the music center? I know he used to sing and he played the trumpet.

NN: Oh, he was in the Jive Bombers, too.

AF: Yeah.

RP: The trumpet section.

Off camera voice: He formed the, actually formed the group, got the group together.

AF: I see.

RP: Who else was in the group besides you and Bill?

AF: Right here. [Pointing to someone off camera.]

RP: For the Sierra Stars.

AF: Oh, the Sierra Stars? Who else? Was Trucko in there?

KT: Trucko Kusaba.

AF: Kusaba.

KT: Played the trumpet.

AF: Oh, he played the trumpet?

NN: What about that bass player?

AF: Bill...

KT: Joe...

Off camera voice: Are you talking about members of the...

RP: Sierra Stars.

Off camera voice: We had...

KT: The bass player.

AF: Do you remember Joe?

Off camera voice: They had Sato.

AF: Willie Sato's brother.

Off camera voice: He was the one that went on to... Gordon Sato.

RP: Yeah, these were the members of the Jive Bombers?

AF: Yes.

Off camera voice: And then we had...

AF: Gordon Sato, he was in Miyo's grade.

Off camera voice: Yoshido Shibuya.

AF: Shibuya, oh.

Off camera voice: We called him Washington. He wound up in Venice now, south towards San Diego.

AF: Oh, really?

NN: Oh, is that right?

Off camera voice: And also Murakami. He went to Saint Olaf's College and became an instructor in music there.

KT: Is that right?

Off camera voice: He was an older fellow. I don't know, he used to play saxophone solos at some of our [inaudible] And I guess on the trumpet side, they had Yato, I don't know, later on, he came on, Nob Yato.

AF: Nob Yato, do you remember him?

KT: No, I don't remember him.

Off camera voice: Trucko Kusaba.

AF: Yeah, I remember Trucko.

Off camera voice: And then we had a pianist.

RP: Oh, she was a piano player?

Off camera voice: Oh, yes, she was a piano player.

RP: Oh, for the Jive Bombers?

AF: Accordion, she played the accordion.

RP: So did you bring an accordion into the camp?

AF: Well, it was supposed to be mine. Mother wanted me to play the accordion. But then she found that I had to learn piano first, so I started to take the piano when the war started, and so she took over the accordion.

KT: That was sent to us.

RP: It was shipped to you?

KT: It was someone that came from the outside that came to visit brought it in.

AF: She was playing piano.

KT: I can't remember exactly how that was brought in.

Off camera voice: Joe Sakai was playing the bass.

AF: Oh, yeah, that's right.

Off camera voice: And then we had a drummer, I forgot his name, Honda? From Block 21.

KT: Gee, Bruce, how do you remember all that?

Off camera voice: I know. Flashes.

RP: Flashes.

KP: So, we're talking about two bands here, the Sierra Stars...

RP: And the Jive Bombers.

KP: And the Jive Bombers.

RP: The Sierra Stars were kind of a country western group.

AF: Uh-huh, started out with the Sierra Stars, huh?

KT: Gee, I don't remember the Sierra Stars.

NN: It didn't last very long.

KT: Well, it was all sort of the same players anyway.

AF: Yeah, exactly the same players.

KP: So what kind of music did you play? What songs? Do you remember any songs you played?

Off camera voice: Yeah, we played Glenn Miller's...

KT: "In the Mood."

Off camera voice: "Little Brown Jug."

KT: Jimmy Dorsey songs.

Off camera voice: We used to buy the music compositions from this southern California music store down in Los Angeles, and it had the complete music for the band. The exact copy of what the orchestras used to play. You play "Moonlight Serenade," it's just like Glenn Miller's.

RP: So you would play in the mess halls sometimes, before the auditorium was built?

NN: I recall an outdoor stage, do you remember?

KT: Yeah, outdoor stage.

AF: Yeah, it started out outdoor, I think.

Off camera voice: And the mess halls weren't that big.

RP: The band could take up half the mess hall.

Off camera voice: Oh, yeah. But I remember the dances we used to have. We'd have to clear out the whole mess hall and put all the tables to the side.

KT: To the side.

Off camera voice: Uh-huh, and then clear the center for dancing. Then we'd have to push this thing to slide, so you could slide and dance, because the floors would get sticky.

RP: Oh, so what would you put down?

Off camera voice: Well...

NN: It was a powder-like, but --

Off camera voice: It was some kind of a... looked like snowflakes, throw it out. It would become slippery. Otherwise, you couldn't dance.

RP: Well, that's something we'll have to consider when we restore the mess hall.

Off camera voice: Spangles, that's what they called it.

AF: Oh, that's right.

NN: That's right.

RP: It's coming back, Bruce.

Off camera voice: And then for us, we had records that we brought home. And Zune Okimoto had a big collection of records. And so before the dance, we would have to decide what records we would play and what sequence. And the last dance was the longest playing record. [Laughs]

NN: Was that "Dream"?

AF: Yeah, "Dream."

KT: It would just go on and on and on.

Off camera voice: I think it was "Without a Song."

AF: Oh, "Without a Song"?

Off camera voice: The longest playing record. That's the one you wanted to dance with your favorite gal.

KT: That's right, I remember those.

Off camera voice: We used to have some traditional records with the Manza-Knights. We have that, we had, like, the girls, the popular girls in camp.

<Begin Segment 19>

RP: Who were the popular girls in camp? Do you remember any?

Off camera voice: Certain clubs, yeah. The age group, just goes by age group. I think the Funsters were too young for the Manza-Knights.

RP: Do you remember some of the Manza-Knights?

KT: I remember names.

RP: Like... what was his name, Cal Maruki?

AF: Yeah, he was our coach, I remember.

KT: We used to call him --

RP: Shy, Shy Nomura was --

AF: Oh, yeah, he was our coach, too.

RP: Was he your coach?

AF: Yeah, uh-huh.

RP: For your softball team.

AF: Yes, uh-huh.

RP: What do you remember about Shy? Was he a good coach?

AF: Oh, yeah. Real handsome young man.

Off camera voice: Yeah, Ralph Lazlo was in our Manza-Knights, too.

AF: Oh, that's right. I remember. Is he still around?

Off camera voice: No, he passed away.

AF: Oh, that's too bad. He was unusual.

RP: You said you played, you accompanied Mary Kageyama?

KT: On the piano.

RP: In the auditorium?

KT: Yes.

RP: Do you remember playing in the auditorium?

KT: Yes.

RP: There was a piano at one corner of the auditorium there, I think it was...

KT: I can't remember -- it was on the floor, wasn't it?

NN: But there was one on the stage.

KT: Was it on the stage?

NN: Oh, no. This one, I'm sorry, it wasn't you, it was Pizzell playing the piano, I think, wasn't it with Mary singing on stage?

RP: Picture of that.

NN: I think that one, yeah.

RP: And you also played for one of Louis Pizzell's plays?

KT: Oh, that's right. He wrote a --

RP: And opera?

AF: Oh, that's right. Yeah, he was my music teacher, I remember.

RP: Was he? What do you remember about Louis? He got everybody really excited about music.

AF: Oh, yeah, he was so nice and friendly.

KT: Gosh, I can't remember.

Off camera voice: We tried to recreate his compositions, you know, the East-West players. Because he wrote a whole --

KT: Operetta type of thing, huh?

Off camera voice: Musical.

KT: Musical.

Off camera voice: And it was about college days and that sort of thing. We've got all the words, but we don't have...

KT: The music?

Off camera voice: The music.

NN: I see.

Off camera voice: So I thought maybe you might have had the music.

KT: No. I don't think so.

Off camera voice: We went up to Shafter where...

KT: His father lives, right?

Off camera voice: His father lives. He gave us what he, Louis had left after he passed away. No music. We just had the words, no music.

RP: Somebody create some music.

Off camera voice: But he was great. He really kept the school going with the plays and the music. I think he was the lifeblood of the high school.

RP: Of the high school? Were there other --

AF: He was just out of college, I think. I remember the young, young boys in our class used to make fun of him 'cause he was so young. [Laughs]

RP: Oh, yeah.

Off camera voice: He had us singing very, very patriotic songs. There was that one song about the United States of America... created... starts off "In 1776 the sky was gray and thunder rumbling overhead." "And King George couldn't sleep in his bed." [Inaudible] And this cantata that the choir sang.

RP: Oh, the choir sang?

NN: Really?

Off camera voice: Yeah, and the funny thing that I remember, I embarrassed George. One scene is, it says about Paul Revere had a horse race, and he had to go through the town and alert them, "One by sea and two by land." And after he said, "Paul Revere had a horse race," he's supposed to say "horse race." But it came out, "Paul Revere had a horse face." [Laughs] He whirled around, he said, "Did I say that?"

NN: That is so funny.

Off camera voice: He slipped and said, "Paul Revere had a horse face." Anyway, excuse me for breaking it up.

RP: No, no.

AF: That's funny.

<Begin Segment 20>

RP: Do you recall any other teachers besides Louis Pizzell that made an impression on you one way or the other?

KT: There was a blind... what was his name?

RP: Greeley, Greeley, or Greenley.

RP: It was Greenley, Clyde Greenley.

AF: Yeah, a speech teacher. Oh, the young fellows used to make fun of him, poor guy.

KT: He was really a lot of fun, though.

Off camera voice: I think for our class of '44, Miss Goldberg.

RP: Janet.

Off camera voice: She was the one that created the annual, the graduation annual, complete annual. She really outdid herself.

RP: Any thoughts about teachers or remembrances about school?

NN: My dancing teacher.

RP: Yeah.

NN: I had three dancing teachers, but there was this young lady who was from Hawaii. And I don't know, her name is -- she went by Kay, but --

KT: Murakami.

NN: -- but I think in the dancing circles, she was known as Kimiko.

KT: From Hawaii, I believe.

NN: Yes. But she was in one of those photos that, she was hulaing on stage. So I don't know how old she was, whether she was in her twenties. She was quite young. But I don't know what the circumstances, but she had a wig on, so it's very difficult to tell what age she is. So she was involved with the young people's programs as well as in the Japanese programs, which was amazing.

RP: You're talking about your involvement with...

NN: Japanese dancing.

RP: Japanese dancing, and where did you generally perform? Did you perform out in the outside?

NN: That was in the kitchen.

RP: The mess hall?

NN: Well, that was at the beginning, and then gradually --

KT: They built an outdoor stage.

NN: -- they had the auditorium, and they would have some programs every so often, and that's where I would either dance or there was plays, Japanese plays that they had.

RP: How about, there were also teachers there who taught traditional Japanese instruments. You were talking about the shamisen.

AF: She took that.

RP: Did you?

NN: Well, I started to, but I was too young and I couldn't reach -- you know, it has this huge wooden... and so I couldn't start. So it was after camp that I really started. But all I could do was just strum. [Laughs]

RP: Have somebody else reach up there, like me?

AF: My mother loved those classical dancing and instruments. In fact, she wanted me to do it.

NN: And I got the brunt of it. [Laughs]

AF: Yes. So she came along, and so she got the... but she's very good at it, so I'm glad she did it.

RP: I'm trying to remember the instrument, the long...

NN: Koto. They also taught koto. And my former in-laws used to have a group called Baidokai, and the father would play the shakuhachi, the mother played the koto, and they would also teach those instruments in camp. And their daughter, who is the same age as me --

RP: Is it the Wakita family?

NN: Yes. Do you know Kayoko?

RP: Sure do.

AF: She was married to one of the Wakita sons.

RP: Oh, were you?

NN: Her brother, at one time. But they had, she's an amazing woman, too. And so they had programs every so often, I imagine, but I wasn't in that area, so I wouldn't be able to give you any input on that.

RP: Right, right. They kept Japanese music going in camp.

AF: Oh, yeah.

NN: And afterwards, too.

RP: And afterwards, too.

KT: And Kayoko was very instrumental in perpetuating that and promoting that. Because they used to have the classical KFAC radio program every Saturday, and she would have this half hour of productions. And people got educated in Japanese music, and she was so knowledgeable, and her, the description of the piece or the composition or about the artist was so informative. I think a lot of people, even the teachers who teach music would have gotten a lot out of it, too.

AF: I could imagine, yeah. Most people wouldn't know much about it anyway, so that was very good. She's very knowledgable.

RP: We were very fortunate to have people like that, like Pizzell and Wakita, and your dance teachers to keep those things going.

NN: And my feeling is that because -- this is another plus when we were incarcerated there. With all the people and the talents together, they were able to also educate the rest of the internees more about the Japanese culture. Because out here in different communities, I don't think there were too many that were able to see the classical dances or hear the musical pieces that are classics.

AF: Yeah, because even people that were born in Japan, they weren't so very, they didn't have the artistic ability to learn, for one thing, 'cause they had to eke a living. So it was very nice to be in camp where they were able to disseminate all this musical talent and information.

RP: Right, quite a diversity from what Bruce was involved with to classical Japanese music and dance, everything in between.

NN: One of the advantage --

AF: She used to do plays.

NN: One of the advantages were that after camp, they used to also, people would continue with those teachers, but I went to another teacher. But they would have programs, right, on East First Street, in a church called Koyasan. And they would have those where people around would be able to come and sing, and performed by people from other camps, too.

RP: I was just curious, was there, in the year or the year and half that your father was gone, was there any man or male who stepped forward to help your mother out or help the daughters out? Any kind of father figure?

AF: Not really, no. Although there were, our neighbors had a couple of grown sons out of high school that used to help my mother, 'cause she didn't drive, take her --

NN: No, no, this is in camp, I think.

RP: In camp.

AF: Oh, in camp? Well, no, no, this is inside camp. They used to help her. And my father always had enough capital to hire people to run things for him. He was very good in making money, so my mother didn't have to worry too much.

<Begin Segment 21>

RP: Another location in the camp that's of importance to us right now is the Merritt Park area, used to be called Pleasure Park, there were large gardens and ponds in the camp, and you have a couple of photos in your albums about that. I was wondering if you -- I don't know if, Nancy, you would remember this location -- but Kiyo and...

AF: I remember, vaguely remember their camp, their garden, Japanese garden.

KT: I vaguely remember, too. It was near the hospital, wasn't it?

RP: It was near the hospital, right. And we're working on excavating that hospital right now.

AF: Oh, really?

KT: Oh, are you? How interesting.

RP: I saw a picture in your book of Harry Tashima.

AF: Yes, uh-huh.

NN: There's a sheet with about three other photos of the garden.

RP: Did you guy know Harry?

AF: Oh, yes.

NN: He lives in the west Los Angeles area.

AF: He was our coach, I remember, our baseball coach.

RP: Was he your baseball coach?

AF: He was our baseball coach. We had a little group of girls.

RP: He was a, of course, being a tall Nisei...

AF: Yeah.

RP: Everybody wanted him on his basketball team. But he was also a great, a great pitcher in camp.

AF: Yes, he's very athletic.

KT: Didn't he sing, too, a little bit?

AF: Yeah, he used to sing.

KT: 'Cause I remember accompanying him.

RP: Oh, you accompanied him?

KT: Yeah, that's right.

AF: Did you play piano for him?

KT: Just accompanied him.

AF: Oh, accompanied him? There weren't too many piano players, so she knows all the musicians.

RP: You got quite a bit of service there, between the Jive Bombers and the Sierra Stars and accompanying Mary.

AF: Yeah, there weren't too many piano players in camp.

NN: Did you play the piano -- there was two brothers, I don't know if they were twins, but they used to live in the west Los Angeles area, they used to tap dance.

KT: Oh, yeah, yeah.

NN: Did you ever play music for them or was it just a recording?

AF: Yeah, I remember them.

KT: Used to tap dance?

AF: Yeah, uh-huh.

KT: That I don't remember.

KT: [Addressing someone off camera.] Do you remember?

Off camera voice: [inaudible].

AF: Yeah, uh-huh.

KT: Do you remember any fellows that, males that --

NN: Was it Larry or...

KT: -- tap danced?

NN: It's after camp that they went to west L.A., but I don't know if they went before there or not.

AF: I remember them.

NN: Lane Nakano and his brother, too.

RP: Oh, yeah, Lyle.

Off camera voice: I know that group.

AF: That's right.

RP: Did you know them in camp?

KT: They weren't from Manzanar --

Off camera voice: They were in Poston.

RP: Oh, they were in Poston.

NN: Oh, they were in Poston.

RP: So Aya, were you taking lessons in Manzanar, too? Were you playing the piano?

AF: No, it stopped. I'm so glad. [Laughs] I was happy, I didn't like piano anyway, but my mother says, "You're going to learn piano today, so stick around." And I made it a point never to stick around. And to this day, I really regret it. 'Cause I wish, I wish I had stuck around to learn how to play like my sisters.

RP: Kiyo, did continue playing piano or accordion after you left camp?

KT: Oh, I don't remember.

AF: I don't think you did.

KT: I don't think I did.

NN: Well, you did teach Nancy Ozaki. You were teaching her the piano, you were giving her lessons after camp.

AF: Oh, that was right after the war, huh?

KT: That was just for a short while.

AF: My mother bought the accordion for me, but I didn't know piano, so my teacher said, "No, you gotta learn piano first," so I started to take piano just when the war started. And I said, "Oh, thank goodness, saved by the war." [Laughs] But I regret it to this day now, I wish I had learned a little bit.

NN: I was gonna say, when I was younger, when we got there, not too long after that, I came down with measles. And so I had to be put into the hospital, that was closer to, toward the high school area, I think, was it not? The first hospital. And I remember being isolated there for a while. And then later, there was, I injured myself on a stump of a tree, which was freshly cut. And so I was taken to the new hospital. I got initiated to two hospitals.

AF: Oh, I remember, yeah.

NN: But I don't know if you guys had any experience.

AF: No, not in the hospital, but I remember the hospital, it was Block 2 or 3 or 1 or something.

KT: Three, I think it was.

AF: And then went up to 12 or 6, way up there in the hills, the new hospital.

NN: But that's near that Merritt Park, did you say?

RP: Right, just across from Block 34. Most of the hospital workers lived in those two blocks, the Satos lived in, I think, 34.

<Begin Segment 22>

RP: You mentioned about your father when he came back. Do you remember that day when he finally returned, and what was that like?

AF: Oh, you mean when he was interned?

RP: Right, and he came back to Manzanar?

AF: Yes, yes. Oh, I think it was, you know, quite a shock to him.

NN: And how was it for you?

AF: Oh, for us, of course, I mean, I was so young I don't remember too much of it.

KT: I don't remember.

AF: Yeah, but I'm sure the whole family must have been very happy. Do you remember? You were happy, huh?

NN: Well, I was shocked because he didn't have his hair. [Laughs]

AF: Oh, that's right, he lost his hair, yeah.

RP: Was there anything else different about him?

NN: Well, I think so. I can't really pinpoint it, but there was... he was a little bit different. I don't know... how would I explain that? Well, he was a stoic man in the first place, but gosh, I don't know how to explain it. I really don't know how to explain that, but he was different. But he, his heart was still good. Because I remember when he came back during the New Year's, we used to go, he would take me, and we'd go visiting the various families to have their New Year's food. And I remember Mama preparing something or other, I don't know what it was, doing that, and so he was still his gentle kind self on the inside, but there was a difference. And he never talked about it. I've tried asking him.

AF: He was always stoic, very quiet.

NN: So I have to just contact the... there's a way of getting some records, hopefully I could do that.

RP: I would encourage you to do that.

AF: Well, all I know about his family history is was an orphan at a very early age. In fact, his mother passed away as soon as he was born or something, if I remember right, something like that, anyway. And so he was brought up by a wet nurse, that's all I know. So I know he didn't have a close relationship with his true mother at all, just a wet nurse. Who knows about that situation. There must have been a closeness.

RP: Did he work after he got back from Manzanar?

AF: Oh, yes.

NN: In Manzanar?

KT: After Manzanar, when he got back.

NN: Yeah, I don't remember.

AF: Yes, my father always worked, because he always had people helping him.

NN: No, no. She's talking in camp. After he came, joined us in the camp, in Manzanar.

AF: Oh, the camp. Oh, did he work? He worked in the kitchen briefly.

KT: I don't remember.

AF: Yeah, I vaguely remember he was in the kitchen, working in the kitchen, helping. But it was sort of demeaning for him because he was never that type of person, to work. He always had his own business.

NN: But you know, I never sensed that he would feel that way about working like that. Isn't that interesting?

AF: 'Cause you were so young, you were only...

KT: He was such a quiet man, you never knew exactly what he was feeling, just how he was feeling.

AF: Just a child.

KT: All I know is he doted on his family.

AF: Oh, yeah, he loved his girls. He loved his girls. And he never regretted not having any sons.

KT: I remember his friends would come over and say, "Gee, Mr. Nishi, too bad you don't have a son." He had such a big, going business. And he always used to say he never regretted it. Of course, we all helped, so maybe that --

AF: She was a big help. She and my older sister, other two sisters would. I'm sure I wasn't too much of a help.

<Begin Segment 23>

RP: Just a few more questions about camp and then we'll kind of move on to coming back to Venice. Two very, kind of, well, humiliating and sometimes disgusting parts of camp life were the latrines and sometimes the mess hall. So maybe you can share your stories or recollections about the latrines, going to them, and your feelings about that. You had no partitions.

KT: That's what I remember about the mess hall, is no partitions.

NN: You mean the --

KT: Not the mess hall, the washrooms.

AF: Well, I was so young that I didn't mind. I just accommodated myself and got used to it. But for teenagers, young teenagers --

NN: Taking a shower, too, was something I would imagine...

AF: Oh, yeah, that's right, taking a shower. There was no partition.

NN: Because being Asian, I think we're a little bit more inhibited about that type of thing, I would think.

AF: That's true.

RP: How about the mess halls? Do you remember a favorite food or the most disgusting food you ever ate there?

KT: There was something that they served us three times a day. What was that? Weenies?

NN: Really?

AF: "Again?" they used to say.

NN: Oh, really?

KT: It seemed like three times a day. I'm trying to remember what it was. Isn't that funny how I forget?

RP: Apple butter?

AF: Oh, yeah, apple butter, yeah. [Laughs] Although I didn't mind it too much, 'cause we never had apple butter at home.

RP: That was the first time you'd ever had it?

AF: Yeah, I think so.

KT: That's right, apple butter.

AF: I sort of liked it, in fact.

RP: Do you remember getting Japanese food at all in the mess hall? I think special occasions --

AF: I think later on they must have had rice.

RP: Yeah, they had rice.

AF: But I remember older people complaining they didn't get rice.

NN: Oh, really? There was this man that worked in the kitchen, an Issei man. And I remember he must have gotten grease from the cooking, and he made soap. Do you remember?

AF: Oh, yeah, Tanaka.

NN: I don't know what his name was.

AF: Yeah, I think it was Mr. Tanaka.

NN: But he would bring chunks of soap to the house.

KT: I don't remember.

NN: But I remember he worked in the kitchen. I thought, "Oh, that's interesting."

RP: That's a far cry from some of the other Issei cooks who made sake.

NN: [Laughs] That's right.

AF: I used to hear about that, too.

RP: Soap? I never heard that.

AF: Shochu, huh?

RP: They would just distribute it to folks in the block?

NN: No, he just made a few, I think, just a few bars. And I remember, I remember him bringing that soap over.

RP: Do you know, do either of you recall anything about the block manager in Block 14?

AF: I don't know who it was, but we had block managers. They used to change periodically, so I can't remember which one it was.

KT: I don't remember the block manager.

AF: Well, I don't remember specific ones, but I know we had one block manager. Every block had a manager.

NN: We had some interesting people in the...

RP: In Block 14?

NN: ...in our block. I don't know if I mentioned it on tape already not, I think I indicated out there, there was that lady that had, her son was a priest.

AF: Oh, yeah.

NN: And her daughter was a nun. I don't remember their names, but I thought that was so different.

AF: That's right, uh-huh. In fact, he was my teacher.

NN: I believe they were across from us.

AF: Yeah, yeah, in fact, he was my sixth grade teacher.

NN: Oh, really?

AF: Yeah, Murakami.

NN: He's the...

AF: He was a priest.

NN: He was a priest?

AF: He was not a priest at that time, but I think he became a priest afterwards.

NN: Murakami was his name.

AF: Uh-huh, Murkami.

RP: Any other interesting personalities?

NN: Let's see... I guess that's about it that stands out.

<Begin Segment 24>

RP: How about, while we were looking at the photographs, you mentioned that each block had a barrack for the bachelors.

AF: Oh, yes, yes.

RP: Most of 'em were Kibeis?

AF: Yes, that's right.

RP: So there was one in 14?

AF: Yes, oh, yes. I remember.

NN: Were they around, near our place?

AF: Oh, yeah, uh-huh.

NN: Close to our barrack, you mean?

AF: Oh, yeah. You don't remember, but I remember.

RP: How about the Yogores?

NN: Yogores? That was San Pedro. You guys wouldn't know about...

AF: That was your age, yeah, yeah.

NN: Gosh, I remember the name, but I can't remember anything about them.

AF: They weren't really bad or anything.

NN: There was Tagu, a guy named Tagu.

AF: Except they were from the fishing village.

NN: In San Pedro.

AF: They were not as Americanized as us, I remember. That's all I know about them. So they used to speak Japanese all the time, and not too much English like we did.

RP: Some people said they were too "Japanesey."

AF: Yeah. Because they were from a little island, I think.

RP: Terminal Island?

AF: Terminal Island, yeah. And so they were sort of isolated, probably.

RP: You mentioned a name or two there.

NN: Well, I was just asking her, there was an Ichi Takahashi who -- I thought he was, he's from the San Pedro area.

AF: Yeah, yeah, he was.

NN: He was in Manzanar, thought.

AF: Oh, no, I don't think so.

NN: No? She says no, but maybe --

KT: I don't remember.

AF: That was after we came back. Yeah, he was our friend.

NN: Oh, and was Tagu afterwards then? Was he in Manzanar?

AF: Yeah, I think Tagu was probably, he was a little bit younger.

KT: I remember the name, but I don't remember the person.

NN: It was right after the war. There would, all these guys would come over to the house with the sisters, beautiful sisters. Or the west L.A. boys would come over. [Laughs]

RP: That didn't happen in camp? Would boys come over to your barrack room?

AF: No, we didn't have...

KT: You really didn't have anywhere to socialize.

NN: But right after the war, these guys would come over, and my mom would feed them steak, had them stay for dinner, feed them steak.

AF: Oh, you remember that?

NN: They were fed well.

RP: "Stay a while."

KT: She was a very friendly person, huh?

NN: She was, she was.

<Begin Segment 25>

RP: The other very tragic event in Manzanar was the so-called "riot" or incident?

AF: Oh, yeah. But I was young, too young, I think. I know, I remember the commotion, but that's all I knew. But I didn't even know why, or the particulars about it.

KT: I remember it happening, but I don't remember anything about it. I think we were too young. All I know is sitting on the front porch on the steps and just watching everything go on, but I can't remember anything about it. I vaguely remember...

NN: Was there a large crowd or something?

KT: No, I just remember people running around and yelling.

NN: Oh, really?

RP: There was a large crowd that gathered near the police station down near the front entrance where the sentry posts...

KT: We weren't too far from the entrance, so that's probably...

RP: Yeah, you weren't too far away. And of course, there were shots fired by the military police into two Niseis, died.

AF: Oh, really?

RP: One was a high school student, James Ito.

KT: I don't recall that at all.

RP: Then there was a great commotion about a month later, a "loyalty questionnaire."

KT: "No-nos."

RP: The "no-nos" and "yes-yeses," and a lot of controversy over how we're gonna answer the questions, and some families...

AF: Yeah, I remember that.

RP: ...chose at that moment, they decided they were going to back to Japan, they went to Tule Lake.

KT: Tad was one of the "no-no" boys.

NN: Really?

KT: I think the whole family. My husband's...

NN: Well, they didn't go to Tule Lake, though, did they?

KT: Yeah, they did.

NN: Oh, they did?

AF: Yeah. I think only a month or so, and then they came out.

KT: I just married one of 'em afterwards.

NN: It was "yes-yes," right?

RP: "Yes-yes." So your husband's family, the Tanakas were in Manzanar?

KT: Yes, they were in Manzanar, but I didn't know him at that time.

RP: Do you know what block they lived in?

KT: Six or somewhere?

AF: Twenty-three?

KT: Was it twenty-three?

AF: Yeah, way up there in the hills.

KT: Across the firebreak, anyway.

RP: That's interesting. In our little movie, we have some color footage of the camp. And I seem to remember one of the barracks, there was a sign that says "Tanaka."

AF: Oh, really?

RP: I think it said 23.

KT: He was in 23.

RP: I'll have to look at that.

AF: Maybe that was, yeah, he had about two older brothers.

KT: Shig and Tad, and then Aki.

RP: You say that they did go to Tule Lake?

KT: I don't know whether he went to Tule Lake or not.

AF: Just briefly, maybe, if he did go. Maybe about a month.

KT: 'Cause I didn't know him in camp, I met him after he got out.

[Interruption]

AF: The YMCA started a group, they opened up a bunch of girls, I remember, called, and said, "We're going to have little clubs." And so I remember joining it, and my sister and I joined in the club. And to this day, we're fairly close together. We call ourselves the Forget Me Nots. Silly name. But I thought that was very good, the camp group, the YMCA group to start a girl's organization. They kept the girls together for all these years, my goodness.

RP: That's great. Kiyo, do you have any other stories, experiences about camp?

KT: I can't think of any. The only thing, when anyone mentions camp, the only thing I could say is I've never seen so many Japanese in one place. That's the only thing that comes out in my mind. And it was very exciting for me because I was just a teenager, fourteen, fifteen, it was very important that I saw so many people.

<Begin Segment 26>

RP: You graduated from Manzanar High School?

KT: I believe we were the last graduate, 1945.

RP: 1945. Do you remember your graduation, and did you have a prom afterwards, or dance?

KT: I'm sure we did. We did everything that everyone else on the outside would do.

NN: Do you remember who your date was?

KT: My goodness...

NN: Oh, maybe you didn't have a date. [Laughs]

KT: Oh, there were so many, which one? [Laughs]

NN: That's okay. But I remember when we were going out of camp, my dad had this panel truck, and we had this lady who joined us because she was going to come to the west Los Angeles area. And she was quite elderly, and it was quite traumatic for her, that travel. But aside from that, I remember there was some fear that I had -- I had to go to the bathroom real bad. But there was something that inhibited me from my dad saying, "We could take you into the lavatory here," or whatever it was. And I remember feeling that, somewhat of a fear in reference to it. And I imagine it's probably because of some prejudice that may have been the situation. But yeah, that was quite an experience with that lady in the car. She didn't have enough air and so she'd roll down the window...

AF: Yeah, she was very interesting because she was, well, her father was English, I think, and her mother was Japanese. But yet, she was very... she played the shamisen and sang, and she taught, I think she was teaching my sister Nancy the shamisen.

RP: So your father, how did he get a hold of the panel truck?

NN: That was his work truck.

AF: Yeah, he had it stored.

RP: Oh, that's right.

NN: I think he came out once with you before he came for the rest of the family.

AF: My father had his, all his cars stored in a Japanese garage somewhere in...

RP: Little Tokyo?

AF: Little Tokyo, yeah.

NN: And that was used for his nursery, the panel truck.

RP: The truck, okay. And so he got permission to come down and pick it up?

NN: And load up and take us all out.

RP: Do you remember that? You mentioned your story about that. Do you remember that day at all, finally leaving?

KT: Leaving camp? No, I don't. I don't remember leaving camp at all.

AF: Oh, I think we, didn't we go in a panel truck?

NN: Yes.

RP: And it was 1945?

AF: Probably, yeah. And then we went straight to the nursery, huh? My father still had the nursery, because he had leased it out to some Caucasian man.

RP: So you went right back to the nursery?

AF: Yeah, uh-huh.

NN: Did he lease that out, or did Mr. Spiegman take care of it?

AF: Yeah, yeah.

KT: He took care of it.

AF: He took care of it more or less on a lease basis, I think.

NN: I don't think he used it.

RP: There was no financial arrangement?

KT: I don't think so. There wasn't. In fact, I know there wasn't.

AF: Oh, I see.

KT: It's just that he came and he said that he would look after it.

AF: Oh, I see. She would know more about it because she was the eldest, and she did most of the business transactions for my dad, 'cause he didn't know any Japanese -- English, rather.

RP: And so you could you describe for us the first couple of weeks or months when you were trying to get resettled, what that was like?

AF: We went back to our old house.

RP: Probably a sense of exhilaration just being home?

AF: Yes, because we had our old house.

KT: I was very wary and kind of scared, because I didn't know what the people, the Caucasian people around would react. I mean, they had sons that went to war, and I remember one of 'em was killed.

NN: Mandamaker.

RP: Were there any other incidents that you've heard of?

NN: I remember when... VE Day? Was it VE day or VJ Day? I can't remember which one. But I heard the horns honking, car horns honking.

AF: You remember that?

NN: And vaguely hearing some yelling in the distance, but I thought, "What's going on? What's going on?" I think that was the end of the war, but I can't, I don't know which theater it was.

KP: When did you, when did you go back? Do you remember the month you went back?

NN: Oh, gosh. May, June...

AF: We got out of high school.

KP: You finished high school?

NN: Yeah, she graduated, so it must have been after that.

KT: June, '45.

NN: So it must have been right after that, maybe. But you went out before, with Dad.

KT: I think it was in August if I'm not...

NN: Oh, you went out?

KP: VJ Day, then, of '45.

RP: Right, then you would have heard those horns. Those were part of the, the celebration. And so your father kind of picked up where he left off in the business?

AF: Oh, yeah. Because he had a man take care of this place while we were gone. So he was a good businessman, I must say.

NN: But I imagine it was very --

AF: Spoke hardly any English.

KT: Everything was run down, and everything had to be rebuilt again. You could just say that we had a place to come back to, and that was it.

RP: That was about it. And how about returning to school? How were you treated by your classmates?

AF: I didn't have any problems, but you feel a little uncomfortable, I remember. But that's about all. We just fitted right in after that. I don't remember any incidents, do you?

KT: We were the last to graduate in camp, so I didn't have to worry about...

AF: Oh, that's right. Oh, and Nancy was too young. She was only in grammar school or something, kindergarten or something.

NN: No, no, I went into third, fourth grade, fourth, fifth. And I know, I guess the war affected these other teachers, too, so there were some... you can't pinpoint it, but then again, there was some --

AF: Estrangement?

NN: Yeah. Some sense of distance there.

<Begin Segment 27>

RP: How long did your father remain in the nursery business?

AF: All his life, huh?

RP: He retired?

NN: Well, until, let's see, we sold it in '79, '80, '81, something like that.

AF: I don't remember that.

RP: And to what extent did it grow during the years that, the time you came back to when he retired?

NN: That was, what, a four acre, four and a half acre?

RP: Oh, and then he built all those greenhouses.

KT: And then he had, I guess he rented the greenhouse in...

NN: Manhattan Beach.

KT: Manhattan Beach, and also in Oxnard. Remember Mr. Nakashima?

AF: Oh, yeah, yeah.

RP: Did he, did he shift in terms of what he grew? Was he growing, still growing gardenias?

KT: No.

AF: It was celery, he changed to celery.

KT: And then later on, I guess when all the farmers came back and had their farms, he grew celery plants to sell to the farmers.

RP: And so he eventually sold his business?

NN: Yes. But...

AF: No sons. [Laughs] Four daughters.

NN: He lived to be ninety-seven, and he was still driving in his late '80s. And we were quite concerned because his eyesight was failing. But he would travel to California City where he had a property all by himself.

RP: California City?

NN: That's quite a distance for...

AF: Oh, yeah.

KT: I think he bought that sight unseen. I remember someone came around, it was a Japanese man that came, and he was selling property in California City. And I remember Grandpa bought forty acres, ten acres for each girl, each daughter. That's what he told me.

AF: Oh, he told you that? He probably meant it.

KT: He used to say, I remember him telling me, he said he bought this property, forty acres in California City, and he hoped that something big would come out of it.

AF: Whatever happened to it?

NN: Oh, he's still hoping. [Laughs]

RP: Yeah, there is a little bit of a community out there, but not too much.

AF: No, it's slow grow.

RP: There's a prison, I think there's a prison.

NN: There is, yeah.

RP: Do you still have the land?

KT: What did we do?

NN: No, we have it?

KT: Oh, we still have it?

RP: It might be worth something.

AF: We ought to go down there and see.

KT: I thought we sold that.

AF: [Addressing someone off camera] Did you know we had the land in California City, the girls? The Nishi land in California City.

Off camera voice: What about it?

AF: Do we still have it?

Off camera voice: Yes.

AF: Oh, we do. Oh, he knows more about it.

KT: I haven't been paying taxes or anything on it, or maybe I have.

NN: Yes, we have.

Off camera voice: I think you should do something with it.

KT: Is it worth anything now? More than what...

Off camera voice: Because it costs you tax every year.

RP: Did your, did your father ever become an American citizen when he had an opportunity to in 1952?

AF: No, he never did. He just never learned English. He was so busy working all the time, I think. I think that was probably it. And he had his own family and own community and own business, so he just never got around to it, I don't think.

NN: But I think this was home for him, because he had no more relatives in Japan. Well, he thought he didn't have any more close relatives, his parents. And so I often asked, "Why didn't you go back to Japan to visit, to tour?" And he says, "I wouldn't recognize anything. Everything's changed." Because he's been gone how many years. He says this is home.

<Begin Segment 28>

RP: And did all of you go to college, did you attend college?

KT: I attended college but I didn't...

AF: I didn't graduate but I've been to college.

NN: You went to USC in nursing, too?

AF: Well, just dabbled, but I haven't got any degree.

KT: That's why I made sure that my kids did.

AF: Yeah, all your kids.

KT: I really made sure that they finished school, 'cause I didn't.

AF: My kids, too.

KT: I regret that. You know, I regret it that I never stayed. But then, I did other things.

NN: Her second daughter is a doctor, her first daughter is a lawyer. Legal assistant. And her youngest is working in the human relations, was it?

KT: I don't remember.

NN: Paralegal, yes, and human resources for the youngest.

RP: Nancy, what did you do?

NN: I went to college, didn't graduate, got married, and then after the kids grew up a little bit, got my AA, then went to dental tech school and graduated. But then I developed an allergy and so I couldn't continue. It affected my eyes, they would just water. And so I stopped that and just got a job at UCLA in the ombudsman's office, and retired in '93.

RP: Did you share, did all of you share your camp experiences with your kids?

AF: Never.

RP: Never?

KT: My grandkids.

NN: Well, we tried, because we coordinated, we got together, I said, "Mom told me things that you may not have heard, and it's the same with you. So let's get together and write some of these things down." And so we have, it's still in a rough draft after how many years.

AF: Oh, really? Good.

NN: So I researched the birth, their age, the background to some extent, as much as I could. And I have it in a rough draft and I just gave each of the sisters a copy. But it really has to be updated because I think there are some changes now, too, especially in reference to Papa not going directly to South America. But he came here first. And I don't know what, how he got to South America, probably a boat or something.

KT: He said it was a boat.

NN: He did?

KT: And then he jumped ship somewhere.

NN: Oh, I was thinking that was on the way back.

KT: Gee, I've been steering you wrong.

AF: They landed in Mexico and crossed the border from there, or something like that, right?

RP: So you're making your own effort to keep, preserve your history.

NN: Yes, for our kids. You know, I have two children of my own, and I have two granddaughters, three grandchildren, two alive. And we all have children, and so I felt it very important to try to get as much as we could so that our kids could know something about our background, their background, and about our grandparents and our parents. But it's hard to get information of our grandparents because of the war and the records that were lost.

AF: And the language. 'Cause we don't speak Japanese, we're English-speaking only.

NN: We're limited.

AF: Yeah, very limited. And they say the Japanese we did learn was very juvenile, from parents to child. But now, it's very complicated now, I understand, and very sophisticated.

KT: Not only that, but I could remember Mama saying, "If you can't speak good Japanese, don't speak it." You know, if you go to Japan or if you see friends from Japan, they'd come over and start speaking. She would say, "If you can't speak good Japanese, don't speak it." I guess it would be embarrassing for her.

AF: It's very difficult for me to think in Japanese, too.

NN: But there's so much English mixed in with the Japanese language now.

AF: But still, basically it's Japanese.

KT: But now, all Japanese, all the people in Japan learn English.

AF: English, yeah.

KT: We have no problems communicating.

RP: Have you encouraged your kids to go to Japanese language school?

AF: Oh, yes, mine all went, but I don't think it did any good. [Laughs] In fact, I even went during college, and it didn't do me any good.

NN: My kids went for a while, and they stopped after a while. My soon took it when he started to go to college, too.

AF: Oh, really? Oh, he did, that's good.

RP: Have any of your kids questioned your camp experience? That's a common, common thing I always hear is, "Why didn't you oppose this or protest the treatment of..."

AF: Did your kids tell you that? Mine never...

KT: I don't remember. I don't think so.

NN: My kids have not approached me about that.

KT: But I remember Brian, my grandson, not too long ago, I can't remember what he was studying in school. And he said, "Did that really happen, Grandma?" "Yeah, it did." He said, "Why didn't you stand up and speak up?"

AF: Oh, really?

KT: For one thing, I was too young, and then we did have people that spoke up for us.

NN: The Sanseis.

KT: The older, people that were older than me.

NN: Thanks. [Laughs]

Off camera voice: I'm with your kids.

KT: But it's funny, it never came up until just, just with the grandchildren.

<Begin Segment 29>

RP: Oh, another important event took place related to your experience in the camps, the 1980s movement surfaced to obtain redress. An apology from the government for your treatment during the war.

AF: Grandpa got redress, too, didn't he?

RP: And also a monetary payment was sent to surviving members. So what was your reaction to that? Did you feel, what was your feelings about getting an apology? And if you don't mind sharing with us what you did with the money you received.

AF: Well, you were probably too young, huh, Nancy?

NN: No.

RP: In 1988.

AF: On, '88? I remember, but to me, I thought, I guess I must have been old enough, however, it didn't phase me too much.

KT: Isn't that funny?

AF: For one thing, I guess we never really suffered like a lot of people. My father was...

RP: Fortunate.

AF: Yeah. He had lawyers and everything, so we were always provided for.

NN: Well, I was grateful and thankful that the country that I live in would acknowledge an error and rectify it and to apologize. And I was grateful that they did that. It gave me some hope for this country. [Laughs]

AF: Oh, that's great.

NN: At that time. [Laughs]

KT: Isn't that funny? Because at that time, I had definite thoughts, but I can't think of any.

AF: I can't, either.

KT: But I know when it was going on I had real definite... I can't remember which way it went. I think it's old age.

RP: Finally, have you returned to Manzanar?

NN: No, I'm still waiting to.

AF: [Addressing someone off camera] Did we ever go to Manzanar? Did we ever go to Manzanar?

Off camera voice: I don't think --

AF: We went, passed through there, huh?

Off camera voice: I don't think we ever stopped.

AF: We just went, zipped by.

NN: I know we sent, there was another museum, was it in Independence or something? And in '93, when we had our reunion, Manzanar reunion, my girlfriend and I, third grade friend, she and I sort of helped in that committee. And so we were trying to get a, our class together again to honor the teacher who is still alive, Seiko Ishida. And so we were involved with that, and we were able to contact -- we weren't able to locate about four people, or identify four people in that photo. But so we were only able to get about less than half of the members to come to that reunion dinner. And it was really nice that we were able to do that, but that was the one we had all the time that we were involved with the reunion committee. But I just haven't... I don't know, I haven't been able to go back there yet, and hopefully I will now. And at that time she had written a poem, and I had asked Archie Miyatake if I could use one of his pictures and put her poem on there. And he was kind enough to let me do that, and so I made two copies... no, I made three copies -- no, two copies of that, and donated mine to the museum in Independence. And I think hers is hanging on the wall. [Laughs]

AF: Oh. Who's that, Giardo?

NN: No, Margie.

RP: Oh, Margie Wong? Oh. She's from Manzanar?

NN: Yes. Her maiden name is Motowaki.

AF: Oh, is that right?

NN: She was in my third grade.

KT: No kidding?

AF: Oh, isn't that nice?

<Begin Segment 30>

RP: What did you think about the events around 9/11 and the aftermath, the backlash towards Muslims, Arab Americans? Did it sort of rekindle a feeling of what happened during 1942? Especially with your father being picked up, was it sort of deja vu? Feeling about that?

AF: I didn't have any. To me, I guess it seemed so different, so separated. I mean, it wasn't a mass thing like in our case, where we were uprooted and all that.

KT: No, I was going to say I really...

AF: Did you have any relationship?

KT: No, I really didn't concentrate too much on it, 'cause I was going through problems at home with my husband. He was ailing, and so my thoughts were elsewhere, I'm afraid.

AF: Oh, yeah, I don't blame you.

RP: Nancy, do you?

NN: Let's see. I'm not aware that Japan bombed the United States.

AF: She's too young, six years old.

NN: And I wasn't aware of anybody being killed by the Japanese here in the United States. But when 9/11 came about, it was such a blatant act to our country. I was somewhat angry. And there were outcries about the Muslims being identified, and that's possibly true. Because I think as Japanese, we experienced that, being Japanese, not Americans, but Japanese. And so I could understand the fears of those Muslims that may have encountered that kind of circumstances. And I don't know, I really don't know, because I don't know much about the Muslims. I don't know too much about the Koran, what it really truly says. Whether it is true what they say, that it is to "kill all the infidels," and we're part of the infidels. And so I really am in a quandary as to what the true response of how to react to that. I can't condone harming anybody, and I do not condone if the person is not guilty of having any, you know, harming the United States. It's a matter of how do you find the... how can you determine that? So I really don't know how to react to that fully. I don't know if I'm making myself clear.

RP: Kirk, do you have any questions? Bruce, do you have any questions?

Off camera voice: No, I'm listening to you all. Very interesting to me because I've gone through this process. You never know what's going to come up.

RP: Right. And we, both Kirk and I thank you very much, and the Park Service thanks you for an experience that was very educational and enlightening, and at times very humorous. I'd like to thank all of you for traveling and coming together.

KT: I think we should be grateful for you, too, for getting all this down, and it will be here forever, for the people after us.