Densho Digital Archive - George Izumi Interview

<Begin Segment 1>

[Ed. note: the beginning of this interview is missing due to technical difficulties.]

(JA: This film is going to be shown at Manzanar and the audience is going to be people who are coming through there with families, with kids, all ages, largely people who don't know much about what Manzanar was. And I'm just curious, so just imagine that I'm one of those people as we talk, and I'm just curious as to why you think I as a tourist coming through there should know about Manzanar.

GI: Well, I think that Manzanar was a place, a camp. I don't, I feel strongly about anybody calling it a concentration camp because the common word "concentration camp" refers back to what happened back in Germany.

JA: Right.

GI: And I don't want, I don't want the American people to take that, take that same attitude against the, the Nazis had in Germany against these Japanese Americans. The Japanese Americans didn't have any choice. I think it was all a, it was just a political move on political people to move all the Japanese Americans out of California, which I don't blame them because we looked like the enemy anyway. We always did. Until we went , we, they were all interned in Manzanar. I felt safe in Manzanar, and in fact I, I'm not bitter about it. I felt that it, it was another adventure for me because I'd never been out of California when I was a child, and I, I never looked back. Once we got on a bus and on the way, I really didn't see anybody on the bus crying or shedding tears. I think they all couldn't... they, they were just like me, they couldn't figure out what was really happening to us. And once we got to camp, I remember that the first thing we had to do was get in line. We all had tags, all the families and all the individuals had tags on their shirt or jacket giving us, we all had numbers, and we had to line up according to numbers in camp, and then we were given a shot. I for-, I can't even remember what kind of shots we were given but we were given a number of shots before we, we were finally destined to go to our barracks.)

[Interruption]

JA: You started to say before you cautioned me that you didn't see Manzanar as a concentration camp, you started to tell me why it was important, though, and what it, what it was. What would you say Manzanar was to somebody who doesn't know anything about it?

GI: Well, I just think it was, it was just a holding camp until the government knew what, what they were going to do with us. The reason I say it was not a concentration camp because we were free to roam and we were, we were, I think we were treated as well as any, anybody can be treated that was going into a place called Manzanar camp, and that's why I don't, I don't feel bitter about it.

<Begin Segment 2>

JA: Tell me about your life and even your family before the war. Who were your parents and where did they come from?

GI: Well, my father came from the Miyagi prefecture, and my mother came from Fukushima. And I, I really don't know too much about their growing up in, in those country, but I do know that my dad came here about, about 1900. And I'm sure, I'm sure that I'm one of many, many Niseis that didn't ask their parents much about why they came over here, where they, where they landed, and what they did. But I found out later on that my dad had landed in Hawaii first and then I guess he came -- and from there he landed in San Francisco or Seattle, I don't know which. But I know he worked on a railroad for many years and he was a cook, I'm pretty sure he was a cook on the railroad, railroad gang, because he used to do all the big cooking for the family on the big holidays at home. And I used to never -- well, it never dawned on me where he learned how to cook, but I did find out later where he did.

JA: Did you find out what motivated him to come to this country?

GI: No, I don't think... he was a farmer, growing commercial flowers to take to the flower market down on Wall Street in Los Angeles, but I really think that the... he never, he never really wanted to be a farmer because he was more of an intellectual type. He liked to read every day and he knew how to, he was one of the very few people that people came to ask him to write things in Japanese for funerals and weddings and I don't see how he had the knack and power to do all that. I guess you call it sumi writing, I'm not too sure about that. But I know that he was very good at that, and, well, during the Depression years, I know he got very ill, and when he came back from the hospital he couldn't, he couldn't drive or he couldn't work anymore, so he, he really hadn't did any hard labor after that. I remember that part. So I remember when I was a kid, too, when he came back from the hospital, he took us for a ride in his car and nearly scared the heck out of all of us because he didn't know how to control the car. Because his foot wouldn't work, because everything was all clutch and he had to, you had to maneuver the car with your foot and a clutch, and boy, I'll tell you, it really scared the heck out of all of us. And then he quit driving all together.

JA: Now, you say he came in 1900. That was, the early 1900s was a time when a lot of people were coming here from Japan, I think.

GI: That's right, and I, I have some postcards at home where he was in Hanford, California, he was down in Calexico, he was in Brawley, and he was even in, in Old Gardena at one time, and a number of other places which I never knew that he, he had gone to. But I do have that postcard at home.

JA: So how big was your family?

GI: There were nine of us, nine children, had seven brothers and one sister, and I was the one in the middle, I was the fifth one, four, four below me and four above me.

<Begin Segment 3>

JA: Do you remember -- how old were you when, in '41?

GI: Twenty-one.

JA: So you probably have memories of December 7th.

GI: Well, I have a very good memory of what happened at that time and I know that I had gone to volunteer for the army. At that time, my brother was home from the army when the war broke out, and he was called back to go back to, I believe it was Camp Roberts in California. And I went to volunteer and they turned me down and, because they said, well, they didn't have to tell me, but they just didn't want any "Japs," and that didn't bother me because we looked like the enemy anyway, so that was one of the things that always stood in the back of my mind. And it didn't bother me, though, because I, I always tried my best to be a good, good American, and tried to prove to the American people that I was a good, good enough citizen for them, or better than they were. I always had that, I always had that in the back of my mind. So, I just kept on going, and I was able to succeed in life.

JA: What did you and your family feel when you heard about Pearl Harbor?

GI: Well, that's, that's a really hard question because I really don't know what I felt. Because I felt prejudice long before that, way before that, so I really don't, I really can't say what kind of feeling I had. Even when I was going to high school I thought that there was one schoolteacher that was prejudiced against Japanese Americans because I took cooking and baking in high school and I tried my best -- I always tried to do whatever I can to the best I can. And while I was cooking and baking they had a contest to see who, who can go into the city finals for baking. I tried my best and I thought I would be one of the honorees, but they turned me down and gave it to a Caucasian boy, and I felt that I should have been there, but then because of being Japanese American, I wasn't, I wasn't chosen. But that didn't bother me. But I, from there I, I put more concentration into cabinet making and woodwork, and there I got a citation for being one of the, one of the better cabinet makers in school.

JA: How, how did your father feel, you think, when he learned that his native country had attacked the country he was now living in?

GI: Well -- and I never did ask him -- but I'm pretty sure that he knew it was eventually going to come to that. And maybe I shouldn't even tell you all this, but my dad, and I'm sure a lot of Isseis during, before the war, they used to collect all the twine and all the, what, the cigarette...

JA: Tinfoil?

GI: Tinfoil. He used to collect all that and put it in a bunch and whatever and he would collect all that and ship all that to Japan. I'm sure he wasn't the only one, there was quite a few others that did the same thing. Well, they all... I don't blame them because they all felt that Japan needed help and they did everything they can to help Japan. Not in a war sense, though.

JA: Right. Did anything change for you or your family after Pearl Harbor? Immediately after?

GI: Well, nothing really changed. What do you mean by the family, though?

JA: Well, we're all -- were you living at home with your family?

GI: Oh, yes. All of us were at home.

JA: I meant did people [noise outside] -- we have an airplane -- I was wondering if, if Caucasian people looked at you any differently than they had before Pearl Harbor or were things pretty much the same?

GI: Well, the so-called rednecks, they always looked at us as the Japs anyway, it didn't make any difference whether the war came or not. They were, they were dead-set against the Japanese Americans or Japanese, the Issei that were already here in this country. That prejudice was always there, but you know, we couldn't let it bother us.

JA: Right.

GI: It didn't bother me.

<Begin Segment 4>

JA: Do you remember when the order came that you had to leave and go to camp?

GI: Well, there was all kinds of posters put on, in every block just about telling us that there's going to be a mass evacuation and this-and-that, and we had to, we had to conform to the, to their, whatever we had to do to prepare ourself to go. But in those days, the elder, or the oldest brother, always was in charge of the family, and the same case was with us. So the oldest brother took care of all the things that had to be taken care of to get ready to go to Manzanar. And we sold, we didn't have, we didn't have much responsibility to that, on that.

JA: How did you all decide what to take with you since you couldn't take everything you owned?

GI: Well, they told us what to take and what not to take. And so we just took, every one of us, I think, we just took what we wanted to take, and that's what we did.

JA: What did you do with the things you couldn't take, household...

GI: We put it in storage. I know that it was put in the, we had a basement in our house, I think we put everything back there. But, and then I found out that people had gone through that thing during the war. And we're not the only one that suffered, suffered pilfery from the, from the American people. There were a number of other -- so many stories that have been untold about different Japanese American families that the people just took whatever they wanted. And, well, that's why I like to say one thing about the evacuation: the American people -- I won't say certain, certain people or a great amount of people -- they didn't care whether, you know, there was a dead Jap or not. That was the attitude, and we were cursed at and spit on and thrown stones. We were told to go back to the country where we came from and I said, "Well, this is where I came from. What am I going to do about that?" you know. That was the situation.

JA: Yeah, yeah. You had to have that attitude I guess. So, so when you came back after camp, your house had been broken into? What was the situation?

GI: Well, I can't say too much about that because I was in the army when, when they were all told -- I think back in 1945 after the, after the war ended -- they were all told to go back. But it wasn't, it wasn't all that... well, it sounded bad because they were told that they were going to, they were going to be evacuated from Manzanar and go back to where we came from. And I wasn't around, but I know that they were all given, I forgot, I don't know how much they were giving to each family to survive until they can get back on their feet again.

JA: And what did they find at home?

GI: I never did ask them. 'Cause because by the time I got my discharge they were all settled at home.

<Begin Segment 5>

JA: Tell me about the, the trip. How were you transported to Manzanar?

GI: On a bus. And one thing that, well, some politicians are always making a big thing out of what a sad day it was and they can remember how they were treated and this and that, but I -- like I mentioned earlier -- I didn't see anybody shedding any tears, I didn't see anybody crying, and I didn't see anybody complaining. And in fact, on that bus, we stopped on the way up to Manzanar we stopped at one, one little restaurant and we all got off and we ran and got ice cream. That was a treat for us. So that's how I can remember going to Manzanar.

JA: But didn't anyone think that maybe this was not quite in line with the Constitution?

GI: Well, I think there was, I think that very few did, not too many. Like I mentioned, they didn't care whether, you know, we were gone anyway or we were forced to move out. Of course, I felt sorry for some of the Issei that were quite well-off financially, and they, and their older son had owned property and this and that. I felt for them, but the majority I think were just poor, poor people. And I know that a lot of the Isseis that went to all the camps in this country, it was like a vacation for them. It was the first time they could really, you know, take it easy and don't have to worry about what they're going to do tomorrow, and... at least I found it that way.

<Begin Segment 6>

JA: What do you remember first seeing when you arrived at Manzanar?

GI: What a dusty place it was. [Laughs] And the wind would blow in, I can see the old -- the dust come out through the floorboard and through the walls, you know. Well, until we got around to fixing all the holes and taking care of the apartment, and I can't remember too much about that.

JA: How did you fix the holes?

GI: Oh, I don't know, we just patched it up. And we were, we were given so much, I forgot whether it was nails or what, and we had to go find whatever wood that we can or whatever we needed to patch up the holes in the barracks. I don't remember too much about that.

JA: Tell me about the living quarters.

GI: Well, it was just small... that's a big question because, you know, I'm trying to figure it out myself in my own mind: how did all the brothers and my mother and father live in that one room? [Laughs] Yeah, that's, that's a... I can't figure that out, but we did. We all slept in one room and we had one, we had one stove, and I know, Alisa asked me, "Where was that stove situated in the barracks?" and I couldn't tell her. So I called up my brother, younger brother, and I asked him. I says, "Do you remember where that stove was in our room?" He said, "No, I can't even remember that." So, you know, it's pretty hard to try to remember everything that transpired in camp.

JA: So how many of you were there in that space?

GI: There were six of us in there, six or seven in one room.

JA: And you slept there and lived there.

GI: Oh yeah, we slept there, and then, then we... and the latrine was wide open, the showers were wide open. But, you know, I can't remember too much how -- I must have taken a shower every day but I don't remember all the little incidents like that.

JA: Did you share beds or did everyone have a separate bed?

GI: No, everybody had a, one cot. Like the army cots, you know.

JA: It must have been a pretty crowded space.

GI: It was. We made the most of it. And I don't know, every, so did everybody else. We made Manzanar what, what it turned out to be, a very livable camp.

JA: What were some of the things you did to make it livable?

GI: Well, well, we didn't have too much to worry about because we were given three, three meals a day and we were given some clothing, and the only thing was that, well, we could do what we want in camp, so we had our free hand. And, I'd like to straighten this out: one thing about Manzanar, you know, they say, "Well, it was like a prison camp." I say it was not a prison camp. We were allowed to go -- if we had a place to go out of California we were, we were free to go if we had a place to go, but they wouldn't release anybody unless they had a definite place to go in, in the United States. So you can't say, you know, we were kept there. But it was -- I'll emphasize again -- it was, it was a safe place. In fact, I talked to one of the fellows there that was interviewed in Manzanar. He says, "Well, heck, I was really glad to be in Manzanar because I didn't have to worry about any more people, any more people calling me 'Japs' and calling me dirty names and whatever." So, you know, that, that's part of history.

JA: And the soldiers didn't talk to you like that either?

GI: No. You had to remember one thing about the soldiers, the GIs, they were all eighteen-, nineteen-year-old kids, so what do you expect from an eighteen, eighteen- or nineteen-year-old kid? So you gotta picture yourself in that same situation. They were only, they were only told what they were supposed to do, and they did what they were told.

<Begin Segment 7>

JA: Now, you were older than that, you were out of school. What did you do at Manzanar? Did you find work there?

GI: Oh yes, there was always, there was all kinds of work, but they're only getting paid $16 a month for just... I remember the first job I had was I was working in the... the first job was to clean up the, clean up that old highway that goes through Manzanar. Clean up all the sagebrush and all the brush that grew up along the highway. We, we did, we did all that. And I worked on a construction crew there, working, since I had a little experience in woodwork, I was working with, with a construction crew building steps for the barracks.

And I want to tell another story about one fellow by the name of Joe, Joe Kurihara. You probably know that name. I wrote to him, and he was very, very bitter about the whole evacuation, and he used to cuss the, cuss the government out just about every day I worked with him. And this I don't blame him for one thing. He was a World War I veteran, so I can't blame him. But then, you know, still, if you're, play a, put in a camp like Manzanar you have to make the most of it, do what you can. And do what you can to prove to the American people that you're just as good as they are, and that's what I did anyway. And I couldn't tell that to everybody because too many people, too many liberal-minded people in that camp, as it is even today.

JA: Did a lot of people, however, share your attitude?

GI: Well, no, we didn't share the attitude. We just took it for granted. [Laughs]

JA: What other kinds of jobs did you have?

GI: Well, I worked in a mess hall when I... because every harvest season that was in the wintertime, we were asked if we would like to work out in the beet field up in Montana or Idaho or bits of Oregon. And so I went, I went to work, and, in the beet field in Montana, and that was quite an experience. Because when we went to Montana, the people there thought they were going to see a bunch of Japanese getting off the train with horned-rim glasses and with radios, you know, and all this-and-that, that's all propaganda. And once we got there, they were surprised that we can speak better English than they can, which we did, because we were all educated in the United States, and besides, we were not in the deep country like Montana, we were 60 miles from Canada. They were really surprised that we can speak better English than they can.

JA: So how long were you away from camp at the beet fields?

GI: Oh, until the harvest season was over, that was about end of October, and we were back again. Then we were getting ready to go again in the springtime to go back to Idaho to thin beets and then odd jobs, pitch hay.

JA: What was the... before you got to be in the mess hall, what was the quality of the food? I know it got pretty good after you got there.

GI: No, no, I, I wasn't the cook. [Laughs]

JA: Oh, okay. What kind of food did they serve?

GI: Oh, the food was regular... well, I would call it regular slop, but it was, you know, we didn't, we, here again we were free to roam, so we found out that, which mess hall had the best food. You know, some mess halls had some professional cooks and bakers, so we found out, find that out, and 22 I think had the, had a professional baker there and so we knew that they had the best desserts, so we used to go over there. But I, when I worked at the mess hall in Block 16, I was, I was asked to go in early in the morning to start up the oil stoves, to get the stove ready for the cooks before they came in. And in other words, just heated up so they'll be ready to cook when they got in. That's when I found out that, you know, that people used to complain that, "How come our block is, doesn't have its quota of sugar, or yeast?" You know, yeast-made product. And I found out they were using that to make so-called Japanese shochu, you know, out of dried -- they would get whatever dried fruit that they could get a hold of, especially raisins and prunes, and they would make that out of that. I found that out. But there was not much you could do about that because they, they did what they wanted to do and they got away with it.

<Begin Segment 8>

JA: What can you tell me about the event that was called the "riot?"

GI: Riot? Well, that's another thing, too. I was right in the middle of that riot, 'cause we found out, a group of us found out there's gonna to be, not a riot, but you know, some kind of a gathering down at the police station because they were trying to get this one fellow that was in that out of jail. And all the radical people, they, they were all down there trying to incite everybody else to get behind them so they can really create a riot. And I remember I was right in the middle of it and, before the shooting -- I was there when the shooting happened -- but when the shooting started, I took off because I wasn't gonna, I wasn't about to get shot. So a bunch of us, we just, we just spread out and we just left. But that was the extent of it. But then I'd like to bring out another point about the riot, too, I understand there was two people killed there and they, they couldn't understand why the shooting took place. But that's easy to understand, because you, you take a group of people that started to surge against the, the GIs, and remember I told you that these GIs, GIs were only eighteen-, nineteen-year-old kids. They've never been away from home, they, they never shot anybody, but can you imagine a group of Japanese Americans surging against them, against these GIs? And what else, what other choice did they have? But they had to hold them back; they had to shoot.

JA: Did you know the people who were shot?

GI: No, but I know the people that they were after. [Laughs] They were, they were... the people that they were after were the older Niseis that tried to, tried to create a better government in, in the camp of Manzanar. They were -- just like the JACL, the tried to do what was, they didn't have any spokesmen at that time, the JACL was our spokesman. So we just, we just followed what they asked us to do. We didn't have any leaders at that time.

JA: So what led up to that riot?

GI: Well, they wanted to release that one, one fellow from jail. A bunch of radical people, they, they just wanted everybody released from the jail that was in jail.

JA: Why was he in jail?

GI: Well, he had something to do with the, I guess they must have, they must have thought he was a inu, which means he was a "dog" that informed the, the Manzanar committee of all the wrongdoings in camp. I don't know whether I should use that term or not, or "wrongdoing," but they didn't, they didn't believe what they were doing to the people in Manzanar, and they were dead-set against that.

JA: Did things -- had there been a lot of tension in the camp before that?

GI: Well, only, there was only tension among the radicals. But there was a group of us and I know I was in Block 15, there was no such thing as a radical in our group. We all got along. We played, you know, played pinochle every day and this-and-that, and built our garden in there and played basketball. Really, I didn't have any time to be a radical or, or their way of thinking about trying to get back at the government. I really think they were trying to get back at the government for what they did to us. But I don't think that's right, but then to each his own.

JA: Everybody has their opinion.

GI: Yeah.

<Begin Segment 9>

JA: You mentioned the gardens. Tell me about the gardens. How did that happen to start? There were both flower gardens and vegetable gardens?

GI: Mostly vegetable gardens, and here again, every block had their own garden. Where they got the seed, I don't know. See, that, another question we'll find in my mind: where did we get the seed to plant all the vegetables growing in the, in camp? But eventually they tore all the soil out outside of camp and then build a big farming camp there, I mean, big farming area there.

JA: What were they growing in that?

GI: Oh, they grew all kinds of vegetables, and they were shipping quite a few to other camps.

JA: You showed me a picture of you on a tractor. Tell me what that was all about.

GI: That was... I just loved to drive the Caterpillar so I, somebody told, showed me how to plow out in the, out in the farm field, that's what I did. I enjoyed doing that all day long, from morning 'til night, you know. But I used to be, we didn't have no such thing as a mask to keep the dust out of our lungs, either. By the time I got through, my face was just full of dust. But I'm still here. [Laughs]

JA: [Laughs] And still happy, that's good.

GI: Yeah, that's right.

JA: Great. There were also some pretty parks and ponds and things.

GI: Yes, oh yes. There was a fellow named, I think his name was Mr. Kato, who was a rock garden specialist. He built that garden. He brought all the stone, big rocks down there, and they built a beautiful rock garden up near the hospital. So, you know, it goes to show you that if anybody, any individual that set their mind to do what they want to do, they can do it. It doesn't matter what they, what it is in life, and I think Mr. Kato wanted to build a rock garden. He did. And a lot of farmers wanted to work on a farm and they, they really went out there and made one of the best farming countries, farming countries... farming area in the country. They proved that they can do that, and in fact, that's where the chicken farm came in, too. They found some people that knew how to raise chickens and they got them out there. And hogs, because the Japanese Americans or I guess the Isseis must have had some hog farm and chicken farm in the old days.

JA: Did you also work with the chickens?

GI: No.

[Interruption]

JA: Tell me about the chickens again.

GI: No, the reason I got my name involved with the chicken farm was because a friend of mine, a family friend of mine by the name of Min Shishido, and I used to pal around together, and we went up to, by the chicken farm and they just got through putting that little stone together up there and then we found that the cement was still wet. So I put my name up there and put "Gimp Izumi" there, I put my date down, and Min Shishido did exactly the same thing just on the other side. And that's the funny part about the Huell Howser program, you know, he wanted to find out who Gimp Izumi was and I said, "That's me." But when we went up to Manzanar to be interviewed for that, for that "Gimp Izumi's Signature," he told, said, "We don't want you to go and look at it now because we want it to be a total surprise to you." And I tried to find out who the other name was from this fellow that was working for Huell Howser, and I guess he didn't pronounce the name properly, but his name was Min Shishido and he didn't pronounce that properly. So I says, "I don't, I don't even recollect that name, whoever you're trying to pronounce." And after the Huell Howser program, I went to look at that signature and there he was, and Min Shishido, the name was right on there. And I was hoping I could have said something about him to Huell Howser's program, but I wasn't given that opportunity so his name was not mentioned.

JA: So, that bring back some memories when you saw your name?

GI: Oh yes, because he was a family friend.

JA: Uh-huh. And your name was there, too?

GI: Yes. Both of us, yeah. I know that Huell Howser asked me a question: "What did Manzanar gonna do with 10,000 chickens?" I said, "Well, you gotta remember one thing, there was over 10,000 people in camp, so that's one egg to a person." [Laughs]

JA: That's great, that's great. What do you remember, do you remember celebrating any holidays or birthdays or anything up there?

GI: Well, the Japanese Amer-, Japanese people, you know, they had their own judo tournaments in there, and then they had all kinds of Japanese festivals in the camp, including having, having church service every Sunday, the Catholic, the Buddhist, the Christian, they all had their own individual church. So we were free to do what we wanted to do. We can, we can go worship any, any religion that we wanted to. So you can't say that, you know, our hands were tied in camp, because we weren't. The only thing I -- I'll say one thing about -- I used to go to Christian church just about every Sunday until I found out, I went to one service in Manzanar and he started preaching about the right and wrong about the war and this-and-that and I said, "Well, that did it for me." I don't go to church to listen to rights and wrong about the war, it's all political anyway, so I stopped going to church after that.

<Begin Segment 10>

JA: What... tell me about the "loyalty questions" that came into play.

GI: Well, the loyalty question, it never occurred to me to answer that question "no-no." I think the... because that question came up regarding the draft, draft... drafting all the young people into the army. And I really think that a lot of them declared "no-no" because they just didn't want to go into the army, or they were bitter about the evacuation. So I think there's two categories, they're either bitter about the war or they're bitter against the government. They didn't want to go into the army. I really think that's because even when I'm thinking back about all the "no-no boys" even during the height of its turmoil, I mean, you -- I'm sure that no one can tell me what good did they do by protesting "no-no," except that most of 'em went back to Japan. And they, after the war they were glad to get back to this country, so you tell me, you know, they were only trying to evade the, the draft.

JA: But those questions weren't limited to just people who were eligible for the draft.

GI: No, they weren't, they were for all the people, even for the older generation.

JA: What, what were the two questions?

GI: I don't know. I think whether we were loyal to the United States, that was one of the questions, that's easy to, loyal to the United States, and I think that if they say no, I think that, that was one of the questions. If they said no, you belong in the "no-no" category.

JA: Were those questions more difficult for the Issei to answer, since they hadn't been born here in the first place?

GI: I really don't know; I really can't say. I can't speak for most of the Issei because I think most of the majority of the Isseis had it made in camp. You know, they didn't have to worry about, about tomorrow. Everything was all taken care for them. Like I said, I think most of 'em enjoyed the vacation. And the successful ones didn't because they were the people that were, they were successful in business before the war and they had to leave all that to go into camp, so I don't blame them.

JA: In addition to the "no-nos," though, there were a lot of young men who wanted to be in the draft or wanted to serve, weren't there?

GI: Oh, yeah, there were quite a few of them. There was only about nine or ten of us in the first draft when went to camp. And I didn't, I didn't... I didn't hear anybody complain about being sent, sent to the army from camp in my group. I think, I think we just looked forward to it. It was another, another adventure. Because we were sent to Fort Douglas in Utah, and from there we went to, I was stationed in Camp Hood, Texas.

<Begin Segment 11>

JA: Did you know people who served in the 442nd?

GI: Well, I know there was a couple of our classmates -- not my classmates -- but there were, that graduated before I did, they were killed in the war. They were good -- they were all... well, they were all good people that were killed. So I don't know what else to say about that.

JA: But they were proud to serve, obviously?

GI: Oh, yes, they were all proud to serve. You know, that's, that's the trouble with these radical people, they don't seem to understand that. If it wasn't for that -- if it wasn't for all these Japanese Americans in the 442, I mean, where would the Japanese American community be today, I mean all the people? I mean, they should be thankful that everything did turn out well, as well as it did. We wouldn't have these Japanese American congressmen and they're, I think they're the worst ones to complain about the darn evacuation. And yet they're sitting on the doggone desk behind in the Capitol or wherever, and, and where would they be if it wasn't for the war? We wouldn't be nowhere, unless a person gets himself involved with what he, what he wants to succeed in and do it. And I'm sure that one of, even the congressmen are complaining about when he was a baby, well, I don't even remember, remember being a baby, I mean, the things that happened when I was a baby. It's pretty hard to try to remember. That's why it sort of tickles me when I hear these things and even in, even in a book like Farewell to Manzanar, you know, there's... that, that book is given to all the people, I mean, all the schoolkids in school, and it doesn't, it doesn't really tell the real truth about her, her story, because she was just a young kid then, going, when she was in camp. How can she remember all those little details? It's questionable in my mind because I can't remember a lot of little things and, when I was growing up and even in camp.

JA: You remember a lot, I could tell. [Laughs]

GI: No, I can remember... [laughs].

<Begin Segment 12>

JA: Tell me about when people were allowed to leave. Where, where would they go and what circumstances would they let people leave?

GI: Well, they had to have a note or a letter of recommendation that they have a place to move to outside of California, and they were allowed to go. They, they weren't questioned whether you'll loyal or not and they would just... as long as they had the place to move to they were, they were given, I think, $25 per family or whatever to move, plus the railway ticket or bus ticket.

JA: Where would some people go, if you knew some people, where would they go if they couldn't go back home?

GI: They would go, they would go to Utah or to, mostly to Chicago or Cleveland, New York, or Pennsylvania. The Quakers took care of a lot of them. I, I talked to one fellow that was in, he was in the orphanage in Manzanar, and he told me that he left camp right after the riot. He was in the orphanage. He told me that he had two brothers that left with him to go out, and they were left at Boys Town, Nebraska, and two of his other brothers, I think they went on to Chicago and Milwaukee. That would be an interesting story there, but he, he didn't want to say too much about it.

JA: Did a lot of those people who went to the Midwest end up staying there after the war?

GI: Not too many. They stayed maybe, they must have stayed about three or four years and then they all came back to California or to Seattle, to Oregon. Not too many had really settled back east. I know a few, but that, that's about all.

JA: I know you said your family had been successful and had a nice house and were able to store your stuff in it. What do you know about people who didn't have homes to go back to? I mean, how did they...

GI: Oh, they were, they were all taken care of by these... like a hostel, they had different hostels in Los Angeles and Gardena in different areas in Southern California. That's where they were housed until they, until the housing was found for them. So they were taken care of.

JA: I also saw pictures somewhere of a trailer park that I think...

GI: That's one of them.

JA: What was that like?

GI: I don't know, I never -- I knew one family that was there in the trailer park, but she never complained to me about it.

JA: But that was kind of temporary housing?

GI: That's right, uh-huh.

[Ed. note: the end of this segment is missing due to technical difficulties.]

(JA: Tell me what was the... what was the best time you ever had at Manzanar?

GI: Best time in Manzanar? A lot, playing basketball, playing softball, and another thing, too, you asked me what I can remember about Manzanar. I remember I got hold of a golf club, but I don't know where I got that golf club, and I, and then I was going off in the empty space there in between the barracks, I just hit the golf ball. I can't even remember where I got the golf ball. So those, you know, those, some of the things that you can't remember. But I know that I would say, I would say that the majority of us had a good time in camp.

JA: Uh-huh. Were there any times that you say you, were not such a good time?

GI: No, I can't say that. We, we just accepted the way things were, and it's up to the individual as to who, what they want to do or what they want to succeed in.)

<Begin Segment 13>

JA: Alisa -- before I forget -- Alisa had a couple of questions that go back a little bit. We talked about choosing the things you brought to camp. What was the most valuable thing you brought to camp, to you?

GI: To me, I think it is the record I took.

JA: Tell me about that.

GI: Well, I think it was a record by Benny Goodman, "Somebody Else is Taking My Place." That, that music really had a nice beat and I used to, I used to let the dance group use that to play at the dances in the mess hall, and I remember that distinctly. But aside from that I, I don't... of course, another thing in camp, too, I was able to trade somebody for a short-wave radio they had in camp, and I got that short-wave radio for my dad. And my dad somehow or other was able, we were able to get that so he can listen to Japan early in the morning.

JA: I thought you weren't supposed to have radios.

GI: Not supposed to, no, later on, this was later on, and he was able to get Japan on this short-wave radio.

JA: So why did you choose to bring records?

GI: Because I love dancing. I used to dance a lot when I was a kid, and music is just part of my life. I just love, you know, mostly all that modern music.

JA: Tell me about dances at Manzanar.

GI: Well, I can't remember too much about them. We went to dances in Manzanar, but I can sure remember going to a lot of dances before the war. We, we had, we went all over, we went to, like, a place down called Lick Pier down in Ocean Park, that's where all the Nisei used to go dancing. And a few other ballrooms, and another ballroom that comes into my mind was a, a ballroom up on Vermont. I think it was The Palomar up there. They wouldn't let any Japs in there. There were a lot of places that wouldn't allow Japanese Americans to go into. So you can see, you know, how, how well-off we are today because we eliminated all that, and we have to be -- I mean, that thing, those things just didn't come about by itself. It's because we proved that we were good Americans, we're loyal Americans. In fact, we were way ahead of the black people. I hate to say that, but we were. I mean, at one time I guess we were, just about hated just as much as the black people was, but because the Japanese Americans proved that they are good American citizens, we were allowed more freedom. I remember when we first came back from camp, when I got discharged from the army or after we were married, we lived on the Crenshaw area, and did you know that there was a border line where no Japanese can live past Crenshaw Boulevard? There was a limitation there. So then they eventually, the whole thing just opened up. So we had our limitations even after, even after the war. And they would, there's a lot of places where they wouldn't even sell, sell to a Japanese family because we looked like the Japs. But we proved that we were better Americans and now we can do what we want.

<Begin Segment 14>

JA: Another thing about Pearl Harbor. What, what do you think were the feelings of Americans when that happened and the experience --

GI: Well, my personal feeling about the Pearl Harbor is that I don't blame the Americans for feeling bitter towards the Japanese or even towards us American citizens because we looked like the enemy. But I always bring up one point, but did you ever stop to think about all the families that suffered through that killing and bombing in Pearl Harbor. I mean, you have to feel, have some, a lot of strong feelings for those people. I felt sorry for them. But there's not much I can do about it. I can feel sorry for them, but that's about it. But I shouldn't -- that's, I think that's what brought on the whole evacuation anyway. They just hurried that thing because there was too much hatred. We couldn't get a job, you know, even after Pearl Harbor, I mean, we couldn't get a job and we had, most of us Nisei were waiting in the unemployment line getting our unemployment checks. I remember that, because there were no jobs available. The only jobs that were available were, you were gonna either be a gardener or you're gonna work in a fruit stand. And that was, as far as I'm concerned, that was about the extent of it. I know I was gardening 'til, until evacuation. I worked in a flower shop, too, for $15 a week, twelve hours a day, six days a week.

JA: Better pay than you got at Manzanar.

GI: Oh, yeah. [Laughs] Manzanar, don't forget, I, I had free board and room there.

<Begin Segment 15>

JA: What did you come away from your experience at Manzanar having learned? Anything?

GI: Well, it gave me the, it gave me the opportunity to make something of myself, which I did. I mean, I hate to, I hate to brag about myself, but I was able to start a bakery there after the war on borrowed money. From there, I made up my mind I'm going to be the president of the Master Bakers Association, which I eventually made, and then I was also the president of the Optimist Club, which we had one of the most successful Optimist Club in the country when I was president. And then I also had my eye on being the president of the National ARBA, that's the National Baker's Association, I had my eyes on that, too, and I was on my way up until one, one old-timer came up to me and says, "George, I want you to stick around because we're going to make you president." And that stopped everything for me. Nobody's going to make me president, I'm going to make president on my own. So I just, I just resigned from that. And then I was also Harbor Commissioner in 1973, I believe it was, until 1976 or '77. And I tried to do what a good citizen should do, being on the commission, but that's the wrong feeling, though, because you cannot fight the government, or the system. The system is here to stay. And I tried to change certain things in the system, you can't do it. And that's where I got in a little bit of a situation with the mayor. Because he didn't want me to, to fight anything that he was for, and that's the way it was. It was all politics.

JA: Tell me about how hard it was to get that first bakery going. You must have worked pretty hard at that.

GI: Well, I was still a baker's helper in 19... let's see, I went to baking school in '48, I went to all the correspondence course, there was a National Baking School from Chicago, I took that, took that, and I went to night school, and I worked under the GI -- and that's another thing that I think that GI Bill helped me. At least I was able to go to different baking schools under the GI Bill, it gave me a start. And then I also got a job as a baker's helper under the GI Bill, which paid me a better salary than just being a baker's helper, and that, that's how it got me started. I worked for one baker and then he taught me everything he thought he knew, and I, I was never satisfied with what I can just learn from one person, you know, I had, I had to go out and learn as much as I can from other people. And in fact, when I was running that bakery in 1950 I was just a helper, I wasn't a full-fledged baker, but I learned. And had a salesman who was a baker-turned-salesman and he used to come and help me do this-and-that about making bread, understanding the mixing procedure, and this-and-that, so I got help from whoever I seeked help from.

JA: Well, you've had a pretty successful life.

GI: Well I think, I think that we accomplished a lot more than the average person did.

JA: What would you... how would you describe the phrase "the American dream"? What does that mean to you?

GI: "American dream" is up to the individual, every individual in this country. You can, you can reach that dream if you set your mind and... mind to it and work for it, but you can, I mean -- nothing's going to be given to you, you have to work for it. I mean, I hate, I don't like these people that are born with a silver spoon in their mouth and, you know, it's all given to them, but they never turn out to be good leaders.

JA: Would you say you've achieved "the American dream"?

GI: Well I think I, I achieved "the American dream" many, many years ago, which I accomplished a lot of things in life, which an average person didn't. Because -- well, there's another thing, right after I came out of the army, I have to tell you about this one incident. I went to see a friend of mine who was a mechanic and he says, "Hey, Gimp, what are you going to do?" I said, "I'm going to be a baker," and he laughed in my face. "You gonna be a baker?" and he probably didn't think I could ever make it, but I did. So you can't -- just because somebody has a negative attitude about your future -- you can't let that stop you. You have to keep on going because the opportunity is out there. Even, the opportunity is even out there today if people will look for it.

<Begin Segment 16>

JA: Tell me why a lot of people after, after the war worked to get redress recognition from the government for being interned. What motivated that and how did that turn out?

GI: To me, it didn't make any difference whether we got a redress or not. It was just the politicians that wanted to make a name for themselves, I think, that, that's how they got up there. Because war is war, and war is hell, and nobody has any jurisdiction about that. I mean, they say, "Well, what's going to happen if another Manzanar happens?" Well, if it happens, it's going to happen. I mean, you or I can't say anything about that because war is war and what happens at that time is what's going to happen. It doesn't make any difference. It'll happen again.

JA: Did you feel that the redress and the apology from the President made any difference to you?

GI: Well, it didn't make any difference to me because I already, I already set my mind on what I'm going to do in life. I mean, I didn't, it didn't matter to me whether I got the money or not. And you know, a lot of people, a lot of Nisei said, "Well, I deserve it, we deserve it." I mean, you don't deserve nothing, unless you work for it. I mean, what's the sense in living every day if you don't have anything, if you don't have a goal to live for? You have to do something in life. So, like me, I, I had to find something else after I retired to keep myself busy so I just, I did what I can, and I'm still doing what I, what I want to do and I'm doing it, so...

<Begin Segment 17>

JA: So, to come back to the very first question I asked you before we wrap up. What... do you think it's important for people to visit Manzanar and understand what it was?

GI: Oh, I think it's very important, and I think it's a good thing that they are doing what they are now, building that museum up there in Manzanar, so that people can understand what really happened. And, well, I know that even today, the majority of the American people don't even know what happened in Manzanar, or what Manzanar is. I've talked to different people and they said, "Manzanar, what's that?" I mean, you'd be surprised. So I think they should, that's one way of getting the word out to them actually what really happened to the Japanese Americans. So I think it's a good thing, so they can understand what really had happened during the war, and how we, how all of us Japanese Americans made a name for ourselves, to prove -- I mean, anybody can, as long as they can prove that they're good loyal American citizens, they can do it. And it's good for the, it was good for the Japanese Americans, and it still is. That's why I hate the idea of being called Asian American because I'm not an Asian American, I'm a, I'm an American of Japanese ancestry, let's believe it like that, you know? And if wasn't for the Japanese Americans doing what they did during World War II, I mean, we wouldn't, we wouldn't be able to reap all the good things that came out of it for all of us. I know that a lot of people got killed, but they had, they had sacrificed their life for us. We have to look at it that way. I wish more people, more Japanese Americans would feel that way instead of being a bunch of crybabies about the Manzanar and relocation or things like that.

And I'd like to bring out another strong point, I'd like to tell the, tell the people, is that the Japanese American Museum, I donated a lot of artifacts to the Japanese American Museum and I regret that for the simple reason that the Japanese Americans insist on calling it a concentration camp and it was not a concentration camp, and I want them to call it an internment camp. In fact, I even told that to the people up in, up in Lone Pine at the museum, that I'm dead-set against them calling it a concentration camp. But evidently at that time they turned it around and they called it an internment camp, but they still insist on calling it a concentration camp, the Japanese American museum, that is. I'm dead-set against that, and I sort of regret ever giving all the artifacts to the museum, because I gave them some, some things that I'm sure that they didn't, they don't, they didn't get a hold of.

JA: Well, you're a very optimistic person. It's been a pleasure talking with you.

GI: Thank you. I'm still optimistic. I still think that, I still got a lot more to, to give if somebody would let me give it to them. I mean, not, not in a sarcastic manner, but you know, if I was given the opportunity to do what I can for the community, which I did for -- I gave myself to the community for a long, long time. And I'd like to give one example of even the Japanese American. You know, during the year that I was in business, I used to donate many things to the retirement home, the Keiro home, a different, different Japanese American doings. And I remember I took a bunch of cakes up to the Keiro home, and Fred Wada, who was a very popular Japanese American who did a lot for the Japanese American community, he asked if I would serve on the board there, and he asked them, and I was there when he asked the board, board members, but to this day, you think they would ask me? No. For the simple reason that they already have a cliche in there that they don't want to change, and they don't want to listen to new, they don't want to listen to anybody in there that's got different ideas about how to improve the situation. So I always held that against the Japanese American group that runs the different organizations. It's a cliche, no question about that. It's all politics.

JA: Yeah, it's all politics. Yeah, tell me your name and where you're from.

GI: My name is George -- they used to call me "Gimp" -- Izumi in, I mean, before the war and in the camp, and I live at 3231 South Bentley Avenue in West Los Angeles, where I grew up.

JA: Thank you. Where'd you get that name?

GI: Okay, am I still on? I guess so, okay.

JA: You're still on.

GI: I got that name "Gimp" when I was playing basketball and people have asked me, "Where'd you get the name Gimp?" Well, I was playing basketball down at Lincoln Junior High School in Santa Monica. That was back in 1940, and I played against a fellow by the name of Babe Nomura, who became a star athlete at San Jose State, star football player. Anyway, I had wrecked my knee somehow or other playing basketball and he saw me limping around and says, "Hey Gimp," he says. So that's, then he called me "Gimp" and that's where the name started and it stayed with me ever since. So I give all that credit to old Babe Nomura. If he's listening -- I know he's still around somewhere.

JA: [Laughs] Okay. Thank you so much.