<Begin Segment 20>

LP: I think the last thing about Tule that I was wondering, if you could describe, you mentioned the auditorium where the school being burned down, was that after you left?

EY: After I left. I read about it in the camp paper, and I see different pictures of it. Very unfortunate that it happened, because at last we had a building that was a school, like back home school, not one of the barracks. But whoever torched it or how it happened, I don't know, but they still claim it's an arson. But whoever did that wasn't really thinking, I think, that it symbolized so much more than just a building, it meant more.

LP: Were there any other, kind of, major events that transpired on that level that you recall while you were at Tule Lake, like rioting? Because I'm just thinking of how tumultuous the latter half of Tule Lake becomes as a segregation center, with more outward protesting.

EY: No, 'cause while I was there, none of that happened. Although I found out later, at one of the pilgrimages, that they had a Japanese school, and there was a man who taught Japanese, and he was teaching the way they did it in Japan, which is okay. But if a student was not performing the way he expected, he would get this bamboo thing and slap him on the back. And do you know that one pilgrimage, this one lady came, she was one of the students, and she was picked up. And also, the professor who was teaching, was also at the pilgrimage the same time. So how she got herself onto the program, I don't know, but we were sitting in the bleachers in the gym at Tule Lake there, and anyway, she got up and she told how she studied Japanese while everyone was learning English, so that when she got on the outside, she was two years behind, because she concentrated on Japanese. Although she became fluent in Japanese, she could read and write and all that thing, but at the same time, she says she was disciplined so bad, it carried on into her marriage. And do you know that the professor was sitting there, he finally got a hold of her after all said and done, he looked her up and he just apologized, he cried, and she said, "I didn't know that the way I treated the students would mar the child so badly that it would carry on to adult life like it did her." And he apologized profusely. And she finally was able to let go of it, but all those years she carried it with her, and because of him, she's acting the way she did in her everyday life. And once he apologized, she said she felt like a rock just rolled off her shoulders. Isn't that amazing? And the fact that he apologized to her, it meant more to her than... "All these years," she said, "I carried it." I talked to her afterward, and she said, "All these years I carried that with me, how cruel he was, just to learn Japanese. For what?" But she said, "I learned a lot, I have to admit that. But boy," she said, "that scar never went away until that pilgrimage."

LP: I have one quick question about the pilgrimages before we get into going to other sites. But is that typical? I'm like a newcomer to attending the pilgrimages, and I know that they've been something that's been this multilayered process for people, there's healing, there's learning, and it seems like over time it's also evolved so that people that are totally ignorant to incarceration during this time period in general, or even Tule Lake are able to learn and to engage and whatnot. So since Jimi is like poster child for this pilgrimage and he's really involved, and you're obviously very close with him, and you're someone who was at Tule Lake pre-segregation, and probably has attended many, many pilgrimages and been heavily involved in them. Is that typical that people who were at Tule Lake have these experiences, all go to a pilgrimage, or is that really unique that that person is able to make a connection?

EY: I want to say that it's unique, but I think it depends on the individual. And like my sister-in-law went, but she took it like, "Well, so?" And I was kind of surprised that she took it that way. Then there's others who had a couple from Santa Cruz, she said her husband was always angry, he was bitter at the government for having taken away his freedom and liberty those years that he was young then, and he was always not really a happy person. So when she went to the pilgrimage, then had the intergenerational discussion, then he found out that he was not the only one who felt that way and it was okay for him to feel that way, but found out it was not fair to those who were around him. That included his wife and his children. So she said, when we had our reunion, she came to me and she said, "Do you know that after I went to the pilgrimage and even on the way home, my husband was a changed person?" And he admitted to her and even apologized that he was just an angry person that he took it out on her. Then he finally realized that he was not the only one, and that the government did not just choose him to be treated that way, that there were so many others that were treated worse, and that he apologized for being the crummy guy that he was. [Laughs] And then she said, "I have a happy camper now, our marriage is much better," and going to the pilgrimage was a really healing experience for both of them. And that was kind of nice to hear, and there's more stories like that. And so I would like to answer your question to say that I think it's more like a healing process for those of us who really experienced it. And hopefully those who, young people who come to the pilgrimage will get a little bit of why it happened, how it happened, and why the grandparents are the way they are, and maybe some of their parents are the way they are. And hopefully they'll understand that some of the things that we do and say may not be natural, but because of our experience, we just automatically react the way we do. So there are a few people who admit that, yeah, in fact, Jim was saying that in his group one time, there was a couple who couldn't understand why his parents were the way they were, and finally found out that they sacrificed so much in camp that they were more on the skimpy side and not very free with their money and all. And the kids couldn't understand why they couldn't get this or that. But the father suffered so much that he was really counting his pennies, you might say. And in fact, at the generation, both of them, husband and wife, cried, and they finally found out why their parents were the way they were. And it's kind of nice to hear things like that, and that when they go home, they're going to be much more kinder to their parents because they found out what sacrifice they made while in camp. It's good to hear that. So on the bus going up, we always ask, "Why are you here?" and some older generations said, "I'm here because my grandkids want me to come." [Laughs] And the grandkids would say, "Oh, no, what happened to Grandma, she never talks about it. But if I go, I might learn something," that kind of a thing. So then on the way home, we asked, "Well, how was it? Was it worth all that?" Said, "Yeah." That's good. And even the young ones say, "Yeah, I'm glad I came. Now I know where Grandpa was, and gee, what a barren place it was, and how he experienced it all." So to me, I think pilgrimage is worth having, even if it creates so much work for all the young ones, but they're willing to give up their time knowing that they still work eight hours a day and still they're willing to come out and help process all this. So we old timers really appreciate what the young kids are doing, because they want history to be told and not just sit there. So sometimes I ask, "How come you're volunteering? Your plate's full already, why do you want to add some more to it?" "There's good history there and people need to know that the government could do these things." Okay.

LP: The pilgrimages are so... well, the one that I went to was so amazing, and everything I've heard from everybody else who's attended them has really been moved by them. So I feel that they're incredibly important.

EY: Yeah, you know, for the longest time, I didn't think it was. In fact, we didn't talk about it to our kids, they didn't know about it. Then we went on our first trip, then we realized the necessity of it all, because there wasn't much out there. So we've been involved since then.

<End Segment 20> - Copyright © 2015 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.