Densho Digital Archive - Mary Jean Spallino Interview (denshovh-smary

<Begin Segment 18>

RM: This is Rose Masters, I am in the home of Mary Jean Kramer McCarron Spallino, and we're on tape three of an interview today on May 20, 2015. We took a lunch break so we all feel better now, and I wanted to return -- we'd been talking about Manzanar and your time there. And at one point you said that you moved from Manzanar to Independence. Can you tell us what it was like living in Independence during World War II?

MS: Well, it was a small community, and the people were very friendly and nice. Mary and George were just delightful people. They introduced me to local people around there whom I don't remember. But I loved in Independence, it really was a sweet town.

RM: Do you remember about how big it was at the time?

MS: Well, it was very small.

RM: And did it have basic amenities?

MS: Oh, yes. Yes, yes. I don't remember any eating places because I was eating in the mess hall or had breakfast at the Savage place. But no, it was just a nice little town. And because of Lone Pine being nearby, sometimes people would come up from Lone Pine and we used to have actors come up. Oh, I can't think... they weren't really famous. They were famous -- not famous-famous, but they'd come up. And one was a radio reporter, I can't remember his name either. He used to come up any number of times. Here's somebody else I just happened to think of, Arlene, do you have an Arlene...

KL: Grider?

MS: What was the last name?

KL: Well, she may be too young, but I was thinking of Arlene Grider.

MS: Well, she married while there, and I don't remember what her... but what I started to say is there was this man named (Clete) something, (Clete Roberts)?

RM: Oh, I recognize that last name.

MS: Yeah, well, he would come up, and I remember he dated a couple of times this Arlene, who was, she also taught at Manzanar, but I don't remember her last name. But she met somebody there and married, and I was her bridesmaid, but I don't remember what her married name was, and I don't remember what her maiden name was either. And she was not there a long time.

RM: And she met... just to make sure I'm getting this straight, she met one of the guys...

MS: Well, it was just, I'm sure, a casual date. Because there were people who came up from Los Angeles periodically, I think because they used to shoot movies around Lone Pine and so obviously they would come out to see what this Manzanar place was like.

RM: I never had heard that before, that's really interesting.

MS: But, yeah, there were several, and there was an actor, I can't think who the actor could have been, and I think he came with this Chet Huntley, but there again, I'm hazy. And they were both single men, I mean, it's one of those things where they're getting away from their wives and dating somebody. So you asked about Independence, so sometimes they would come from Lone Pine, they'd go to Manzanar, they'd go up to Independence to see what the little town was like. It was a nice little town, it had all of the amenities.

RM: You had mentioned way, way back at the beginning of this interview that you knew some people who said that if they saw somebody who was Japanese, they would shoot 'em. What kind of, how did you come across an interaction like that?

MS: I don't... it was just something that somebody said. Like they wouldn't let the... the Japanese could not leave the camp. And then somebody said no, because one of the reasons is if one of these persons got out and the people in town, if they saw 'em, they'd shoot 'em. That was the feeling, the wartime feeling. And you can understand, in a way. "These people bombed us, and if I'm a hunter, I'm gonna shoot one of these," I don't know.

RM: Did you ever meet anyone who had that opinion?

MS: No, I never heard anybody say that, it was just that somebody reported that, that they'd shoot 'em here in the Owens Valley because they were hunters. Pete Merritt did a lot of hunting, that was the country to hunt.

RM: What did you think about that sort of contrast between the way some people viewed the people in the camp and the way that they were, as your students?

MS: I could understand it, in a way, their feeling, but I couldn't feel that, I couldn't feel that way. But some people that... there were always people that, you know, it's my way or I've got to push you out of my way. I don't know how to answer that. I couldn't condone it, obviously, I was there. I don't ever remember anybody saying to me, though, "How could you go and teach those people?" Never heard anything like that, never.

RM: So people were pretty understanding about your work.

MS: Apparently they may have thought it, but I never heard any criticism of my doing that as though I were being disloyal. I never heard any of that, but that could just be the people that I knew.

RM: Do you remember any Owens Valley locals coming into Manzanar for, like, a harvest fair or anything?

MS: Not much, no. I don't think there was any interaction. If there was, I didn't know about it. There could have been, but I wasn't... it wouldn't be like an exchange of people coming in and presenting things, giving talks and stuff, I don't remember anything like that.

RM: I don't recall if Kristen asked this earlier, but did you go to any of the churches in Independence?

MS: Yeah, I did. I went to whatever the little Protestant church was.

RM: Little Methodist church?

MS: Yeah, whatever it was. But I think I said that I often slept in at this next, on Sunday morning. And I remember there was a Chinese fellow there, he was half Chinese, part Chinese. Do you have any recollection of... not in the camp, but do you have any recollection of anybody of Chinese background in Independence?

RM: Yes. I've been told that there was a guy who was Chinese who was, he worked at Jim's, I think it was called Jim's restaurant right on main street, and he was one of the cooks there. I've heard about a guy who --

MS: Because there was a very nice Chinese fellow, and I did go to a show with him once. I haven't even thought about it for some time. He was half Chinese, half Caucasian, half Chinese. And he was a very nice fellow, but I didn't want to get involved in anything like that.

RM: What show did you go to?

MS: I don't know, there had to be a theater there.

RM: In Independence?

MS: I went to a theater with him somewhere.

RM: There was a theater in Lone Pine.

MS: Well, then we went down to Lone Pine.

RM: How did you get back and forth between Independence and work?

MS: Well, I went... after the superintendent... how did I get back and forth? I don't remember how I got back and forth. I got a ride, but I can't remember with whom. Isn't that strange? Because I had to get back and forth every day. But there were people, that not everybody lived inside Manzanar. But that's a good question, because isn't that strange? I don't remember, poor old memory.

RM: Well, I would like to start asking you about sort of the end of camp...

KL: You had mentioned a name earlier that we were gonna go back to, helped set up the library, Shig Honda?

MS: Oh, yeah, Shigeru Honda.

KL: What do you recall about him? Why does he stand out in your mind?

MS: Well, he was just a kid, he was probably about sixteen, and he was very helpful to Ruth Budd. And he was in the library a lot, and I was in the library a lot, and I just admired him. He had a... I don't know, I think he had a father and a stepfather, and there was another little kid that was probably his half, I don't know, brother or sister. But I was just so impressed, he was such a nice kid, and so helpful to Ruth. And then he was about sixteen or seventeen, and then I did get a letter, I don't know, after I left, maybe two or three years later. And I don't remember exactly what relation, I think he was just writing to tell me that he was fine. I don't remember the letter or anything about it, but I do remember hearing from him, and he was such a nice boy. And I always felt sort of sorry for him, as though there was something lacking, you know, like mother's care or something.

KL: You mentioned, too, that you had a friend that came from Los Angeles who was a survivor in the attack on Pearl Harbor? And you had other friends at UCLA who were either drafted or people in the military service. And I wondered if you ever had communication with those people about your job at Manzanar and what they thought about your decision to work in the camp.

MS: Not really, because this friend of mine who died just, I don't know, about six, eight months ago, who was wounded in Pearl Harbor, I just met him and his wife. We were good friends, but we were middle aged when we met, and I don't think we even discussed, we didn't discuss Manzanar or the Japanese. So I don't ever remember discussing anything like that.