Densho Digital Archive - Edwin 'Ed' L. Rothfuss Interview

Densho Digital Archive
Manzanar National Historic Site Collection
Title: Edwin "Ed" L. Rothfuss Interview
Narrator: Edwin "Ed" L. Rothfuss
Interviewer: Kristen Luetkemeier
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Date: March 7, 2015
Densho ID: denshovh-redwin-01

<Begin Segment 1>

KL: -- March the 7th, 2015. I'm Kristen Luetkemeier with Manzanar National Historic Site. With me operating the camera is Alisa Lynch, and we're here in the Las Vegas home for another day or two of Ed Rothfuss. And we're going to be speaking especially, he had a career with the National Park Service, but we'll be talking especially about his role as superintendent of Death Valley National Park from 1983 to 1994, and his involvement with getting Manzanar established. So, Ed, I just want to confirm that we have your permission to be here today and recording this interview for the public.

ER: It's my pleasure to do it.

KL: Well, we appreciate that. Been excited to get to have this conversation. I want to start off asking you just when you first became aware of Manzanar as a significant place, or first heard about that story.

ER: Okay. When I arrived at Death Valley in August of 1982, I was given a tour, and they pointed out the old CC buildings at Cow Creek. And the comment was, "And these were used by some of the Japanese American internees during World War II." And that just kind of stuck in my mind. And that winter I started reading materials, and I ran across a very interesting article written by, I think it was Togo Tanaka. And in there he wrote, he was one of the seventy that were, got into the riot at Manzanar, and got sent to Death Valley. And they loaded them up in a Deuce and a Half and took across the desert and dumped them at Cow Creek. And I'd read his article, and I thought that was intriguing because he said, "We didn't know where we were going or what kind of trouble were we in or going to happen." When they arrived in Death Valley, here was this little man who was the superintendent, T.R. Goodwin, who was a short fellow, dressed in his uniform, came out to meet 'em and said, "Welcome. You are our guest here for a few months, and we want to make this your home while you're here. We have some work projects for you." But to get acquainted tonight we're going to have a barbecue down here." And he pointed to a burro tied over along the barn there and he said, "That burro will be our barbecue tonight." And Tanaka said he walked over and he looked at that animal and he saw those beautiful brown eyes. He said, "That night when we got there, we were, I did not eat meat. No way after seeing that beautiful animal." But he was very impressed with the friendliness, and the whole seventy of them felt very comfortable arriving there. And they found out that T.R. Goodwin, who also, his garage up there, and housing area of Cow Creek, he had a mock train set. And he built the most elaborate landscaping and all, had these little trains running around. And he invited the internees to come up and watch the train go. So they worked on trails. But anyway, I read that and I thought, gosh, that's kind of intriguing.

And then later that year, I guess it was maybe the next year, we heard about the annual pilgrimages they held every April in Manzanar. And Marge and I thought we ought to go up and see what this is all about. So we went up to Manzanar, and that was... oh, gosh, I forget, eight hundred to a thousand people there. And we went in and they had the program there, they had food, and somehow I got introduced as the superintendent of Death Valley, and met Sue Embrey and Rose Ochi, and they were just really gracious. And we started meeting some people, and I can't remember her name, but one woman was very intriguing. She was a very small Caucasian woman with white hair, and she was one who was interned there because she was married to a Japanese American in San Francisco. And she said, "One day the FBI came and knocked on my door, and identified themselves as FBI," and she said, "Why are you here?" "Well, we came to arrest your husband and your son." "Why?" "Well, they're Japanese American, and we've got to take them to an internment camp in Manzanar." "No, you can't do that. He's a little boy, he's eight years old." And they said, "I'm sorry, he's Japanese, so he's got to go." And she said, "If you take them, you're taking me too." So she was a Caucasian woman who came to Manzanar with her husband. And she was a delight to talk with, I'm embarrassed right now, I can't remember her name.

KL: Was it Elaine Yoneda? Married to Karl, they had a young son Tommy?

ER: Yeah, that's probably her. Elaine sounds more familiar, the last name I don't remember. But she talked about them going across in the Deuce and a Half and she kind of talked about whether Tanaka had written, too.

KL: What did she, do you remember what she said about her experience with that night or the caravan over?

ER: She just said it was kind of scary, because, "Where are we going? What's going to happen to us?" She was very tense, I think, about that. And I think we saw her in one or two, well, maybe one or two more pilgrimages, and I guess she passed away.

KL: Did you meet her husband ever?

ER: No, not that I'm aware of. But that was... and then we started going to the pilgrimage every year, because there were such neat people there. We really, I recall one time, I walked around, and there were two elderly Japanese Americans standing in the back of the property looking at the mountains, and they were laughing and waving their arms. And I went out there, I wore a uniform sometimes over there, and I'm just thinking, I said, "You know, you gentlemen are having such fun here. What's happening?" He said, "Oh, we remembered when we were kids, and we were in the camp here. And in our woodshop, we fashioned some bows and arrows. And the two of us snuck out of camp, we got under the barbed wire fence, and we went up the mountain, and once we killed a deer with our arrows, and we brought that deer back to our mess hall. And oh, we were heroes because now they had some real meat to eat." But I thought... they had just fond memories and were chuckling. Then Mas, who I guess you both worked with, Mas...

KL: Okui?

ER: Okui, yeah. I remember going through the tour with him. He talked as a little boy, they crawl under the barracks and play under the barracks, it was shaded and a neat little place to play under there. But it seemed like it just, that really got us, myself and my wife really intrigued about Manzanar. And then I started carrying that message back to the staff, I said, "We were up at Manzanar, and next year, if you can, get up there to the pilgrimage." So then there was an actual status came in, so we started in.

KL: I'm going to interrupt you for a second and ask a few follow up questions. Did Death Valley staff take you up on that? Did there start to be a Death Valley sort of presence at the pilgrimage?

ER: There were a few that did it. Not many, but there were a few. And then when we got officially involved there, we had rangers in uniform up there to help with the traffic. And one, George Voyta... we heard from, I don't know whether it was Sue Embrey or Rose (Ochi) called us and said, "There's a Boy Scout group that wants to do an Eagle Scout project of re-roofing the entrance building there, and we'd like to have that done." And I said, "Well, we'll send George Voyta over to look at the job and work with the Scouts." And George Voyta, that's his first involvement. He got over there and outlined a plan with the Boy Scouts and supervised the project so it was done professionally and well. And that's... so we sent rangers over there sometimes for the encampment or the pilgrimage, it was a busy day, we knew they needed some extra help around. But I'd say probably I can think maybe of a dozen staff members, different ones made it. Not every year, but on at least a trip or something.

KL: That tradition continues, you'll be glad to know, Death Valley rangers coming out to support the pilgrimage.

ER: Yeah.

<Begin Segment 2>

KL: What do you remember about the format of those pilgrimages in the '80s? Can you walk us through sort of what happened, if you went to any other part of them at the Eastern California Museum or anything?

ER: Oh, I know that they usually had the drummers there, the music. They always had the ceremony out at the grave sites, always sharing of food, and we always took something, but we always got all this sushi and all the neat stuff that they had for us. We had... so it was basically visiting together, eating together. There were some speeches like Bill... I'm pretty certain Bill Mott spoke at one of them there. And they had Mayor Bradley from Los Angeles came up, and he spoke once there. So there's always some kind of official that spoke at those. And they were just fun. And the fun part was just visiting with these folks. And I cannot remember her name, but you two might know her. There is a Japanese American girl who was in the Park Service, and her parents were interned at Manzanar. And every year they would seek me out and say, "Ed, we would love to see our daughter get up here someday and work at Manzanar." And she was, I think, an interpreter in Hawaii maybe at the time.

AL: Was it Lisa Okazaki? Because I know Ross was trying to recruit Lisa.

ER: Well, Ross and I talked about it. The name doesn't register right now, but probably so.

KL: We'll have to ask him.

ER: Are you still in touch with Ross?

KL: Somewhat, yeah. Some staff members are, and we have kind of shared acquaintances and stuff. Did you ever meet... or was there more you wanted to say about the format?

ER: No. I think each one was similar format, but the different speakers and different crowds... and the crowds varied from several, three or four hundred to eight or nine hundred, it was kind of a variable group. But I don't know if we missed one. I know we didn't miss any intentionally, and we've only been to, I think, one since retiring.

KL: When was that... approximately when was that project that George Voyta worked with the Boy Scouts on?

ER: Well, if I had my Park Service diaries I might find that. But it had to be somewhere in probably the early '90s. Well, '92 to '94, somewhere in that range, probably more the earlier date.

KL: Did you ever meet Sue's sons or any of her nieces, Sue Embrey's kids?

ER: No, I don't remember meeting anyone but Sue. But she was always there and very helpful. I did find one thing interesting. You had three generations of Japanese Americans there, and I found the ones who had the most positive memories and were really outgoing were the first generation. If there were some that were angry, there were a couple young men I remember, they were really furious about, "How my parents and my grandparents were treated." And the most anger we felt in the younger people, not in the older people. And I'm not sure, I guess all of us get more mellow as we age, or so.

KL: Some people.

ER: Some people.

KL: One other question about your introduction to those Cow Creek buildings. Who pointed that out to you, that connection to Manzanar, do you remember?

ER: Bob... let me think, embarrassed here to think of his name here. Bob was the chief of maintenance, and I remember he gave me a tour of the maintenance area. Quesenberry, Bob Quesenberry. He was the chief of maintenance there when I arrived, a couple years later he transferred to Canyonlands and retired. But he was the first one to point it out. And then I started going... I get intrigued with history, and that kind of, I'd never really heard of the internment camp program, it just was never on my radar until that experience in Death Valley.

<Begin Segment 3>

KL: Alisa, do you have other questions along this line of conversation?

AL: Were you there when they dedicated the Blue Star Highway plaque?

ER: I think I was, but I don't remember anything about it, to be honest. Ross Hopkins worked pretty close with that. I really don't have any... you know, I've got to tell you one little story that just came to mind. There are some donations in your collection there of some trunks and all that came from Lonnie Hammargren. Lonnie Hammargren was the former lieutenant governor of Nevada. And that's a whole another story about him. But the intriguing thing about him, he's a big collector. And every year he has an open house on Nevada Day. He's got about two houses joined together, and it's like the Smithsonian there. And he invited Marge and I to go on a tour. Well, he used to come to our bookstore, and he was one of these people who would walk real fast down the aisle, "I want that book, I want that book," by the spine. And we got to be somewhat friends there, he was a character. And in fact, he said -- he became lieutenant governor -- and he said, "Ed, I'd like to put you on one of the committees up here. Oh, you're a Democrat? That won't work." We're Republicans now. [Laughs] But he invited Marge and I to come over to his house. And he took his tremendous, big house, there were a couple trunks. He said, "These came, these trunks and these beds and some things came from one of the Japanese American internment camps in California." And I said, "Which one?" He said, "Well, I'm not sure." I said, "Was it Manzanar?" "Yeah, I think it was Manzanar." And I said, "Would you mind donating those?" and he did. So they're all in the collection. And it was kind of funny that they had a big celebration on the Holocaust anniversary, and he had about a hundred Jewish people, some had been interned, and they were there at his house. And since the internment camp kind of related, he invited Marge and I to come with the group, too. And he said, "We'll use that as a night to officially donate all these items." So he had the media there with the cameras and all, and he said, "Let's you and I get up there, and I'll give these to the Park Service and recognize the Park Service and my contribution to donate to the Park Service." So I stood up there by the camera, and that's when he was actually running for lieutenant governor. And all of a sudden he came out running for office. I don't know that he said anything, he said, "Oh, by the way, I'm donating all this stuff to the Manzanar National Historic Site." But he's a character.

KL: How did he acquire the things, the trunks and stuff?

ER: He is an ultimate collector. I mean, if you ever get down here in Nevada Days, find out when he's having an open house. He'll have people lined up several blocks long to go in his collection. It is phenomenal. He's got a mockup of Mount Rushmore, he was a surgeon for the space, NASA, for a while. He's a brain surgeon, and he's a flaky guy, but a neat guy, he's so much fun. When I retired Death Valley in 1994, the party was in the visitor center. And Ross Hopkins, I think, arranged this. But all of a sudden, here came this guy dressed in buckskins and all that, and Al Hendricks, who was superintendent of Great Basin at the time, said, "Ed, who in the hell is that guy coming in?" Well, that's your lieutenant governor. But he prided himself on being Teddy Roosevelt. I mean, he looked like Teddy Roosevelt, and he liked to dress the part. So he came down to my retirement party.

KL: What better occasion, a National Park Service retirement party?

ER: Right. And he seemed to really enjoy it. I said, "Who in the devil is he going to sit with?" And John Stark, I don't know if you ever ran into John Stark, but he was kind of a computer geek, nerd, but brilliant mind when it comes to GIS and all that. Those two sat together, and they had a ball. Because we saw, everyone was at breakfast the next morning, and they really enjoyed sitting next to John Stark. I said, well, they got the two right minds together. Excuse me for aside there, but I wanted to put a tie-in to the donations.

AL: I just had a question actually about donations, and maybe this is better later. But I know Ross Hopkins had, in the museum collection he had a number of rifles similar to those used at Manzanar. I was curious if you knew anything about that and why he was acquiring rifles? They've since been de-accessioned.

ER: I really don't know. First I've heard about the rifles there.

<Begin Segment 4>

KL: So when and sort of under what circumstances did you start to become aware, or did it become apparent that Manzanar was going to be, or was being considered to be a unit of the National Park Service?

ER: Well, I thought that was fantastic, because that's a national story, I mean, international story, and think of all the World War II and all that. It just, to me, it was fantastic. I couldn't see any other agency handling it, the National Park Service was so appropriate, so that was great.

KL: How did that news make it to you, or when did you, how did you kind of learn?

ER: Well, at the pilgrimage they were discussing this, and there was a proposal going forth. And that's when John Reynolds got kind of involved. I'm not sure the dates and how that fits in there, but it was established in, what, '92 was the year?

KL: It was authorized, yeah.

ER: Okay. At that time, I guess it's just after that, we were excited it was happening. And we had been somewhat involved getting interested and excited about it. Ross Hopkins was excited, and George Voyta, and Sue (Buchel), all the people in Death Valley that had been up there and met some of the people, they were, "Wow, this is great." And John Reynolds, who was then the deputy director of the National Park Service, landscape architect, his background had been in planning and been a superintendent. And he, being a landscape architect, said, "We've got to get a study going on there of what to do." And he invited this list of about a dozen of the really top landscape architects that were Japanese American. And so Ross Hopkins and I went up, and they were coming out to spend a week in Manzanar doing a preliminary plan. And we met them up there and we stayed at the hotel there in Independence. And they were just a neat group. And one of them kind of struck my interest there, was Ron Izumita. And he said, "I brought my father with me." He said, "My father was interned in Manzanar." And he said, "You know, I've never, never gotten anything from my father about being interned in Manzanar. I grew up in the house, and I kept asking about Manzanar, he just shut up. He wouldn't say a word about it." And he said, "Dad, I'm going up to Manzanar to work on this landscape architect team for the Park Service. Why don't you come with me?" But finally Ron won, and his father reluctantly came along. And that night at dinner he was just sitting there as a grumpy old man, didn't say anything. And the next morning, all of us got up and we went up to Manzanar to walk over the site, and started talking about it. And his father just reluctantly went along. So the twelve of us or so, Ross and I, and I forget who else from the Park Service may have been there. (Possibly Dan Olson.) But we all went around and talked about Manzanar and the things there. And some of these had been interned there as youngsters, but all of them were very familiar with Manzanar, and then, wow, it's a park. And Ron's father -- and I can't remember his name -- but he just wandered off by himself. At lunch he came in with a big smile on his face, and he was so excited. He said, "You know what?" He said, "I was walking around Manzanar," and he was a young adult there at Manzanar, and he worked in the fire department, he was on the fire brigade for Manzanar. And he also was on the baseball team, he was third baseman. And he said, "I walked out there, and kicking around the sagebrush, and I found the hook where third base was hooked." And boy, it opened him up. I mean, he was nonstop talk from then on. And we went up, when the toured the museum there at Independence, "Hey, there's me." And he pointed out from the picture of the baseball team, "That's me right there, third baseman." But it was so exciting to see somebody who had just locked up inside for sixty years, or fifty years, and all of a sudden, something broke loose. Finding that little pin that held the third base just excited. And I could point on the map where the block is, you probably knew offhand where the baseball team, base field was. I don't know if there was more than one. But that's just kind of one of the little highlights of working with these people, is to find little sparks of excitement.

KL: And John Reynolds put that landscape architecture team together?

ER: Yes, yes. John, I think of the Park Service hierarchy, I have to give John credit, being just one of the real champions of Manzanar. And when it comes to regional office, Dave Cherry and his staff, all this staff were supportive of Manzanar. Everybody that you got there in the historical planning panels, and Roger... Dave Cherry's team were all very, very supportive of Manzanar.

KL: What form did that support take?

ER: From?

KL: Like from the regional office and the landscape planning?

ER: Well, Dave Cherry got Dan Olson out there to be... he's head of one of the planning teams there. He got the landscape -- or not the landscape architects, but the archeologist involved, and I imagine he made the contact with, is it Burton?

KL: Jeff Burton?

ER: I think he's the one who probably orchestrated getting all that help out there. Because all those Park Service people you see that were involved in Manzanar from the regional office or from WACC, all were the kind of support we were getting. Didn't get it from the regional director, but he got it from his deputy, or not his deputy, but his head of cultural resources, natural resources. Yeah, Dave Cherry was one of my champions, too, when we had the big burro removal program in Death Valley. I mean, he was always there to support anything in natural and cultural resources.

KL: So it was kind of a universal, I mean, he was just committed to his field. Or was there anything specific to Manzanar that you ever spoke about as a reason for his championing?

ER: Well, I just can't think of anything specific, but the whole general aspect. And he supported his team, and that's why, "How is Dan Olson working down there?" "How's Ray Murray?" He mentioned all these people, he would always check. And I could only give good reports because all those people, from Jeff Burton, from WACC and the others, they were just first class people there that really, I think really loved Manzanar and really put their best effort out there. And looking back, from my thirty-six years in the National Park Service, I could feel that Manzanar excites me, because it was probably one of the best events where a new park was established. And it had some struggles in the beginning to get staffing and money and all. But my god, how that has come together. I mean, that's a fantastic park now, it seems like it's well-staffed, probably well-funded, and well appreciated. And I know Ross Hopkins has some trouble with a few naysayers in the Owens Valley that didn't want that camp to be there. But I think time has solved those problems. Most of them have passed away now. It's not a nice thing to say, but it's true.

KL: What about John Reynolds? Did he ever speak about why he was such a strong supporter of Manzanar?

ER: Not specifically, I can recall anything. I mean, John was just, he was, I'd say, a darn good regional director (...) and certainly a deputy director (of NPS). He cared about the resource, he cared about the Park Service. So I don't know that he would have felt any different about any other area, but I always found him a very positive supporter. And he played a major role in Death Valley when it became a national park, and the role of the National Park Service to the Timbisha tribe and played a major role there.

<Begin Segment 5>

KL: These are all things, I think, that happened after Congress acted to authorize Manzanar. And you've talked about the pilgrimages, but is there anything else that you remember from pre-1992 that, of the National Park Service's involvement? You mentioned a couple planning meetings, maybe, like in the earlier '90s.

ER: Yeah, and I'm not sure just of the timeframe in there, but I think prior to '92, most of it was just person interested, myself and members of my staff who just got interested in the story up there, and got acquainted. I'm not sure just when the first official planning started, but it had to be somewhere in that '91, '92 area. Here's where I'm missing my notes to tell me some of these specifics. You might have records of that.

KL: Where did those early meetings occur? Were you in Washington ever, or Los Angeles, or was it all...

ER: Well, when the park was established, Dennis Otsuji and I made a couple trips. We went, the two of us went to Washington and put on a presentation to the staff there. We went to the regional office and made a presentation. I can't remember whether we were both at Lake Mead, but I definitely was Lake Mead and made a presentation on Manzanar. And I think we did one in the Los Angeles area, talking about, we got a fantastic park here that's got a rich history that needs to be told and preserved. And this is the park and what we hope will happen. I think somewhere in that stack there I found my notes on the talk I gave in Washington when I was back there with the slides.

KL: Why Lake Mead?

ER: Pardon?

KL: Why Lake Mead?

ER: Well, I can't say. Jerry Wagers was the superintendent there. He may have invited me to come over and give the talk. And I almost feel I was invited to do that. It wasn't, I didn't volunteer to do it. But once I got the invite, I couldn't pass it up.

KL: Do you remember who was present at the presentation at the regional office? I mean, there's some dichotomy and support and lack of support there. What was that presentation like?

ER: Yeah, it seemed like the room was full, but all the key players that we talked about were all there. But I can't recall any naysayers in that session. There may have been some, and I'm not even sure if Stan was there. He would have been a naysayer had he been there, he'd have been quiet.

KL: What about in Washington? Was that at DOI?

ER: Yeah. It was one of those sessions they have periodically up in the Mead auditorium, and they had it. And I think that was all just positive, too. I can't think of... and that's history. I mean, just getting older, you forget the bad things sometimes, the negative things, you remember the fun things, the good things. But I felt positive about all those meetings that we attended, and I really appreciate that Dennis Otsuji, who could talk as a Japanese American and his involvement there, he was there. And I'm glad to see he was involved in the advisory board, and I guess he's still involved in it.

KL: He is. He's done designs of landscaping elements as people walk up to the visitors center.

ER: I haven't seen him since they had... I'm not even sure if, he was there, I think, for the dedication, but did we meet or not? That's fuzzy right now, just who was there. There was an awful lot going on that night, afternoon. But give him my regards if you see him, because I have the highest regard for he, and, in fact, that whole group that came out there, just outstanding people. But he and Ron were the two that made permanent impressions with me, and mainly Ron's father.

KL: Yeah, that's a pretty good story. What about the L.A. meeting? Do you remember where that was, or were there Park Service people in attendance, or a couple?

ER: It was Little Tokyo, and it seemed like there were some people from Santa Monica who were there, but I don't remember specifically. Ross and I, and there was probably somebody from the region. Maybe somewhere in the pile, so we can find who attended, was there maybe somebody else you've talked to that had more information on that. Sorry.

AL: Did anybody who opposed Manzanar show up? Like did Lillian, do you remember Lillian Baker?

ER: Well, I'm not sure. I know Lillian Baker so much from Ross's comments and Ross's notes that he sent me, and her letters to the editor in the paper. And I honestly, I probably had met her, but there's nothing that I can comment on firsthand.

KL: You don't remember any opposition really being vocalized at those...

ER: At the meetings? Honestly, I can't right now. And that could just be faulty memory. But I just have the feeling that I was pleased at the support that people seemed to give. And I'll have to later tell you about the one negative support or lack of support we got.

KL: Yeah, we'll get there. The only other question I have about those meetings was if you remember any particular elements of the landscape plan, either from the presentation or from your onsite visits to Manzanar? What did Dennis and Ron and others think was... what was their vision?

ER: Okay. The plan that I briefed when we got copies of it, I just thought sounded pretty close to what we talked about. It seemed like there was some pro and con discussions, do we really want to put the guard tower up there? It seemed like there was pro and con on that. Barbed wire fence... there were a few issues like that that seemed like, I recall, were pro and con issues. But looking at how it's going, I just was kind of excited. I was glad to send my check the other day for the latrines. [Laughs]

KL: Yeah, well, I'm glad you sent it, too, because it connected us. Do you remember any of the specifics of what the arguments for and against the guard tower or the fence?

ER: Not offhand, no. Whether... I'd be speculating if I tried it, yes.

KL: Alisa, did you want to ask anything else about the pre-1992 or the landscape efforts?

AL: I think maybe you've already covered this, but just sort of key individuals of what their connections were and why they were involved? Or maybe you're going to get to later down the list, but just what was motivating people for their moment? But I think we can cover that later, too.

KL: Okay.

AL: Because I think the story of Ron's father, that's tremendous. Those kind of stories and connections that we don't, we have no way of knowing existed.

KL: Yeah, because that might not make it into the minutes.

ER: You can bounce some of this off Dennis, too, because his memory might be better than mine, probably is better than mine. But he has the same take, and he may know his father's name.

KL: We'll have to look for that, yeah, yeah.

<Begin Segment 6>

KL: So I have this list that you... well, actually, let me ask you about William Penn Mott. I meant to kind of ask you about him, and you said you have just a little bit of recollection of his take on Manzanar when he was director of the National Park Service.

ER: Yeah. I just got to know him when he became director, and I found him very positive about Manzanar. I can't think of anything... he was kind of a positive man, always upbeat. Sometimes a little crazy in his ideas, but I enjoyed his take on things. But Manzanar, yes, positive.

KL: Do you think he may have attended one of the pilgrimages?

ER: I almost feel like he did. And I know he's been out in that area. I wish I could be firm on that, but maybe somewhere in the records will show that he... but I feel he was definitely there.

KL: Well, moving on to Death Valley then, the challenges of that park are pretty well-documented, especially in the period that you were there in the '80s. And then you've already mentioned the Cow Creek historical connection, and, of course, the two sites are fairly close together. I wonder if you could just kind of reflect on when you were given the... well, not even given, but when you sort of took on that task of setting up Manzanar, what were the challenges, what were the benefits, how did that affect you and Death Valley?

ER: Well, I'm not sure it affected Death Valley, but as we got involved, a number of the staff did get excited as I mentioned, George Voyta, Ross Hopkins, some of the others, Sue Buchel was up there. But I think it just got us excited. I'd almost like to move into the problem I had of getting resources, and that's dealing with Stan Albright, is that appropriate to...

KL: Let me ask you, just briefly, what was Sue Buchel, did Sue Buchel have any kind of tasks related to Manzanar while she was at Death Valley, or was she just a supporter?

ER: Not really. It seemed like several of these people went up there and did some things, because we sent some interpreters over to work, well, be there, sometimes at a pilgrimage, and then also we had a program to send somebody over to the interagency visitor center to share information about the Park Service and Death Valley. But I don't know that any of us had any official documented function over there. But a lot of it is just the pleasure of doing it, it's all everybody's own time on Saturday or Sunday, Saturday for the pilgrimage.

KL: So even though Death Valley was pretty under resourced, and there was some antagonism even toward desert parks in general, the mood of the key staff at least was very supportive.

ER: Yeah.

<Begin Segment 7>

KL: Okay, so you were ready to move into funding and resource issues.

ER: One of the things that was frustrating to me about Manzanar, I would make occasional trips, somewhat frequent trips to San Francisco. And I would send a list into my boss, Stan Albright, the regional director, and I'd have a list, "Here are the issues going on in Death Valley. I really need some guidance on it. And here are some issues related to Manzanar," which included getting some funding, or is it okay to send George Voyta over there to do things like that. And I would go up to Stan -- and this happened on several occasions, not just one. But I recall on one occasion... almost every time I went in there, Stan was pretty receptive and supportive of things in Death Valley, "Yeah, fine, that sounds good, go ahead." Then I'd have a list of Manzanar, "No, no, no, no." [Laughs] And I think about the third time I had that happen, as I left Stan's office, I went by his secretary's office and I said, "What is wrong with Stan? Whenever I come in to talk about Manzanar, all's I get is, 'No, no, no.' What's going on?"

[Interruption]

ER: She said, "Ed, I'll tell you a little secret. He was born and raised and went to school in Bishop, California, and one of his best friends there was Bob Tanner," who I met, I knew Bob Tanner slightly. And he said, "Whenever he hears you're coming up here with questions on Manzanar, he calls Bob Tanner and says, 'Bob, what do you think about these things?'" Bob was still in his mind fighting World War II. He hated the Japanese; he did not want to see anything recognizing Japanese Americans in the Owens Valley. He was very much opposed to it. And Stan listened to him more than he did to me. And when I learned that, I kind of knew a little bit better how to work with Stan. But it bothered me that he took his advice from a guy who was still angry. So that made it a little tough. But fortunately, his subordinates there were supportive of it. But one thing, it's the old adage there: if you don't want to live with the answer, don't ask the question. [Laughs] I suspect there were people that got things done without saying, "Stan, should we do this?" just do it. [Laughs]

KL: Were there others in the regional office who were opposed to Manzanar or were throwing up blocks, or was it pretty much Albright who was a solo show and others were supportive?

ER: Well, as I recall, he's the only one that felt that way. I mean, there may have been others, but he's the only one I had to interface with. The others I interfaced with either were not involved with Manzanar and never commented on it, or were very supportive. As I say, the people in Dave Cherry's, they were all supportive because they were all involved. But Stan is really a decent human being, and as a person, I like him, but he had some blockages in his vision of where things should be and go. It was kind of sad, but it was true.

KL: Were you surprised that his secretary told you that?

ER: No. I was pleased, because it helped me. Because I just, "What is wrong with him?" Well, that gave me the clue. And you know, when you understand somebody who is the opposite of your thought, if you understand where they're coming from, you can approach them a little differently.

KL: You said you had encounters with Bob Tanner at some point?

ER: Well, just on positive things. He had a string of mules, and he'd bring the mules down when they'd ever have the twenty mule team wagon functioning in Death Valley, he would be involved in that. But I've never talked with him on the issues we're talking about now, is basically, the couple times I ran into him, maybe just a couple, it's all about these mules and pulling the wagons and all that. So he just seemed like a great guy, other than his take on the Japanese Americans.

KL: That's kind of interesting that he continued to be a Death Valley supporter even though he probably connected you and the park with the Manzanar endeavor.

ER: Yeah. Well, I don't think he took anything personally, and I didn't take anything personally. But that was just... but there were people that really did not want to see it in the Owens Valley.

<Begin Segment 8>

KL: Let's talk about... if this is a good time, let's talk about Ross Hopkins, his name has come up some. And I know you talked a little bit with ANPR and Hannah Nyala West about how and why he came in. But would you elaborate on Ross's background and how he came to be the first staffperson and the superintendent?

ER: Okay. Well, in brief, Ross was a very talented historian in the National Park Service. We first met in 1963, I think it was. And our paths never crossed (again) until he came to Death Valley as a cultural resource management specialist. But he had been a park superintendent, and he had been a historian, and a variety of jobs. But he came to Death Valley as a cultural resource management specialist. And in about '92 when we started getting involved in Manzanar, with his being a very sharp historian, he was interested in helping and great, wonderful. So Ross and I usually went to all the sessions and pilgrimages. If I couldn't go, I counted on Ross for carrying all the activity there. I think he was very positive about it. I don't know if we need any more on Ross or not...

KL: Would you talk a little bit about the relationship that developed between him and either others within the National Park Service or stakeholders like the Manzanar Committee or the advisory commission? What was the relationship that he had with them?

ER: Okay. When the question came up, should Ross be the superintendent of Manzanar, I suggested Ross being the first superintendent there. Because, one, he had been a superintendent before, and I knew he'd love to be a superintendent again. And what I saw in working with Ross on some of these committees is that he, I think, had to, he earned the respect of the Japanese American people. I think the Rose Ochis, the Sue Embreys, the key Japanese Americans, I could sense that they personally liked Ross and they respected him, and I thought that was a key thing. So I think, as far as I know, I've never heard anything negative. And I really haven't been in touch with any of the key people that he worked with, but prior to his getting the superintendency there, it seems like we overlapped a short period of time, from the time he was appointed superintendent and I retired. But I got the feeling there was a good relationship between, and I guess Dennis Otsuji would be a good one to ask on that. But I had the feeling that he was respected by the people. And I know he had a little problems with some of the non-Japanese Americans in the Owens Valley, you know, the Bob Tanner type persons, that he had a little trouble with. But that was their problem, I think, more than his. But I just felt that he was a good positive to get started down there. But I think you've had some outstanding people as superintendents there since then.

KL: Do you want to ask other things? I have a list of, sort of, National Park Service officers. I want to just circle back to the Manzanar Advisory Commission and a bunch of other parties, but about Ross or Albright?

AL: Well, actually, you've mentioned Bob Tanner several times, but in the years that I've been there and the few years before that, William Hastings was a big opponent up in Bishop, and I'm curious about your awareness of him, if you ever met him?

ER: I am not aware that I ever met him, but Ross... lot of that stuff in that pile there are news clippings and all that Ross sent me. And I can see that he certainly was not a friend of Manzanar. And there were several other people that I know basically just from the news clippings that Ross sent.

AL: I've heard a story from several people that Ross had received death threats and other threats of physical harm to himself and to the [inaudible]. Do you know anything about that, and could you elaborate?

ER: Boy, I sure don't. I mean, this is the first I've heard of death threats. But I know there were some angry people up there. I just... I think our discussions here will stimulate me, when the snow gets deep next winter and I go through my notes, some of this stuff will come back. Did Ross really say something like that, he was receiving death threats? I don't recall if he did. I'm sorry to hear that. But that happens with a lot of bureaucrats, I mean, or not bureaucrats, public officials. I know the BLM has been catching flack down in Nevada with Clive Bundy and his crew. Not so much Clive Bundy and his crew, but the outsiders who came in with guns to support his stand. They were, BLM was getting some death threats and all.

KL: How did you supervise Ross Hopkins? Like how often did you all talk, how independent of an operator was he?

ER: He was a fairly independent operator, but we talked a couple times a week while our tours overlapped there. And I got a lot of emails from him, and news clippings, almost every week I'd count on getting something from him. And he would go to our staff meetings, I don't recall how consistent that was, you know, to fill us in on Manzanar. Because we just felt very good about Manzanar. One thing that was kind of interesting, when Stan Albright said that he would appoint Ross Hopkins as superintendent, he said, "Ed, he's under your supervision, though." And I just felt that the superintendent of Manzanar should report directly to the regional director. "No, not while I'm regional director. He reports to you." He didn't want to have anything to do with Ross personally. And it's too bad, I'm glad Ross retired, then they did elevate the direct communication from the superintendent of Manzanar directly to the regional director.

KL: Did it seem like there was a personal component to that, or was it other issues?

ER: Oh, it was personal. Ross wasn't the easiest person to supervise. He had his good days and bad days, and you had to know how to work around those. Because he was a tremendous performer on the good days, and on the bad days, just let him get over it. [Laughs]

<Begin Segment 9>

AL: Yeah, I was just curious a little bit about that, because I know that two other confinement sites, Tule Lake is paired with Lava Beds, Minidoka is paired with Hagerman. And I've always assumed that the pairing of Manzanar and Death Valley was just that little getting up and started. But you feel like it was just interpersonal? You think if it had not been Ross and Stan that it would have been a standalone to begin with?

ER: That I don't know. It might have been.

KL: Well, it was authorized before there was a staff, so, I mean, the fact that it was with Death Valley, that was pretty...

ER: Yeah. See, what had happened is after that park as a site was established, we started getting a lot, Ross and I both started getting a lot of feedback from the Japanese American community and the citizens of the Owens Valley. "We've got a park here now, when are we gonna have somebody on site? When are we gonna have a superintendent here on site?" And here again I went to Stan. I said, "Stan, we're getting these comments or questions from the Japanese American community, all the people involved, the Owens Valley people, when are we going to get a superintendent for Manzanar?" It's been established now for x number of months or so. And his comments, I can almost quote. He said, "We will not put a superintendent there until Congress appropriates the money and the positions for us to do it." And I remember saying, "Stan, all the time we get parks, look at Mojave." We got the park, and we got one dollar for the first year to run it. And you know what happens? You take money from other parks and position other parks and get it up and running until Congress can act. "Nope, I'm not going to do that for Manzanar. Nothing until Congress approves it." And that's when I had to go to the director. And the next day Stan called me and said, "We're having a superintendent now at Manzanar. Which division chief do you want to give me?" [Laughs] And I said Ross. Ross has been a good champion, he's been... I went all through the respect that Ross had in the community, and he would love to have the job. He said, "Fine, Ross will be the superintendent, and you cannot fill behind him until Congress appropriates the money and the position for Manzanar, then we can give you back the position Ross was in." So we has an acting chief interpreter until after I retired. But that... several times in my career I gave up money to Great Basin when it was established as a National Park, money to Channel Islands. Death Valley, there were a tendency -- and I assume it still goes on -- that parks pony up some money to help a new fledgling area to get started.

KL: When Ross Hopkins became Manzanar superintendent, did he immediately move to the Owens Valley, or did he have a period where he worked in Death Valley?

ER: Well, it was pretty quick after that. I don't recall the timeframe, but he got a house there and moved to Independence while I was still there.

KL: And as far as Stan Albright's attitude, you mentioned his friend in Bishop and also sort of a personality issue with him and Hopkins. Did you ever hear him say anything about either race himself or attitudes toward a historic site as opposed to a more, sort of, classic park?

ER: I never heard him say that, but I always assumed that he was a big tree man. [Laughs]

[Interruption]

ER: Well, it was kind of interesting. So, I was willing to give up Ross and to get Manzanar, hallelujah, it happened. And I said, "Stan, the pilgrimage is coming up in April, and this is a wonderful time now, in another month and a half, for you to come down maybe just a guest speaker." And he was invited in to speak. I said, "This would be a great time, as you speak about Manzanar Historic Site, is to anoint Ross and introduce Ross Hopkins as now is your superintendent. "No, I'm not going to do it." So I called Washington again, and this time, Roger Kennedy (was director but not in) the office, but John Reynolds was acting director. And I said, "John, I've got another problem with Stan." And he said, "Ed, I'll take care of it." So about half an hour later, I got a call from Stan. Stan said, "Ed, you write my speech. You include what I should say about Ross," period. [Laughs] And Stan, he's a good professional, he got up there and gave a good talk. We got a new historic site and he was all positive and everything, "And I'd like you to meet Ross Hopkins, many of you worked with him. He's your new superintendent." And people applauded, and so it went well. But the hell I caught getting him to the stage. And again, there's John Reynolds stepping in, and Roger Kennedy, I mean, there were, the two top guys up there stepped in.

KL: I'm not sure we captured on the recording when Roger Kennedy sort of interjected, or you asked him to interject himself. Would you tell that circumstance?

ER: Well, it had to be sometime, 1982, somewhere along in -- '92, I'm sorry. Somewhere along in there, I don't recall the exact days. I was at some session back in Washington and there was a cocktail party somewhere, and there was Roger Kennedy. And I said, "I hate to bring this up at a cocktail sessions, but I've got a problem with my regional director." He said, "That's nothing new, I hear that from a lot of superintendents." [Laughs]

KL: And the problem was just general lack of support at that point?

ER: Well, it was failure to get a superintendent. That was the only time I ever talked to Roger Kennedy about Manzanar, is when I said, "We need a superintendent there." I mentioned the arguments that I gave earlier. And that's the only time I ever talked to him until five, six years ago when I happened to be at a conference that he was speaking, and I went up afterwards, and he remembered the incident and said, "You did the right thing, Ed, thank you." [Laughs]

KL: What actions did he take in response to your bringing it up?

ER: You mean originally?

KL: Yeah.

ER: Oh. When he got... the next day, when he got to the office, he called Stan Albright and said, "You get a superintendent at Manzanar now." [Laughs] That's all he did. Then minutes later I get a call. I was at home, and it was, oh, I guess it was Monday. I'd just gotten back from Washington late that night, so I was going to take Monday off. And so Roger Kennedy must have called Stan early Monday morning, then Stan called me at home because he knew I wasn't coming to work. And Marge, when I got off the phone, she said, "Ed, my god, you were on the phone for an hour and half. What was it?" Well, I was getting chewed out, and gave up Ross to be the superintendent. But those kind of memories stick in mind.

<Begin Segment 10>

KL: So this is tape two, we're continuing an interview with Ed Rothfuss on March the 7th, 2015. And I wanted to ask you about the Manzanar Advisory Commission. What was your involvement with it and what was that like?

ER: Okay. Ross Hopkins and I were invited to come up with a list of nominees for the secretary's committee, and we came up with twenty-five or thirty names of people that either we had worked with or had volunteered, they'd like to serve. We submitted that list, and then the committee was appointed. Some of them I knew and some of them I didn't, but we were pleased to be invited to come up with the names. And after it was formed, I had left and I never got involved in their functioning, how they functioned and all that.

KL: What were you and Ross looking for as far as characteristics or things that people would bring when you compiled the list?

ER: Well, it's a parallel that actually I've been working on a little bit right here. This Tule Springs National Fossil Beds, National Monument was established here, and I've been working on that as a very subordinate member of the committee on that. But we have an advisory commission on this. But it started when I first brought up the idea and said, "We did it at Manzanar, and that should be a pattern to do it here." Look at the stakeholders. Who are the people in the area that you need to have represented? You need to have the Native American influence, you need to have the Japanese American influence. You need to have different... we looked at the stakeholders in the area, and that was the key thing. And then people call up and say, "Well, we'd like to be part." You think, well, where do they fit in? They have a talent or an interest, so we just kind of looked at that just to make sure that nobody was left out in the nomination form. And the same way here, there must be about twenty stakeholders here that really, we hope that most of those get nominated to the committee, because they've been so helpful and supportive in getting started. So that's...

KL: Were advisory commissions a typical thing in that time period, or was this a new model?

ER: I don't think it's a new model. I suspect... of course, the secretary has had one, the nationally appointed, to represent the entire National Park Service. And I've had a chance to be at several of their meetings, one in the Virgin Islands when I was there, and one came to Glacier. And when Lady Bird Johnson happened to be on the advisory board at that time, and I got to take her on a couple hikes in Glacier, and she was a delightful person.

KL: So what were the functions for the advisory commission? What was its purpose?

ER: Basically they're a group representing a variety of interests who can become familiar with the park issues and make suggestions or ideas. They had no authority to say this must be done, but as a superintendent, I would love to have people like that, to say here's a very talented group of people with a big interest to give me feedback and give me suggestions and ideas. And it's up the superintendent and the regional director and director all the way up to make the final decisions. And the advisory board, I think, is extremely valuable. And I think at Manzanar there was a sunset clause, which I think is smart, too. But it helps get it started. But then you start the Friends of Manzanar, and some of the members are now members of that. And I could see that happening here, too, I think there was a sunset clause, I can't recall how many years.

<Begin Segment 11>

KL: Some of the people who were on the advisory commission we've talked about already, and others I had notes to ask you about. So let me just read the names, and if you don't know them or didn't interact with them, that's fine. But starting with, there were two chairs, the first chair was Sue Kunitomi Embrey. You've mentioned her in connection to the pilgrimages.

ER: Outstanding person. She's just one of the great leaders of that organization.

KL: Did you have much interaction with her, or what stands out?

ER: I had no interaction with any of these people after the advisory committee got functioning. But all my experience with the ones I know was prior to their getting on board.

KL: I've read the minutes, or not the minutes, I've read the transcript of the first meeting of the advisory commission where they elect a chair, and it's immediate and unanimous it's going to be Sue Embrey. Can you talk about why that was from your...

ER: Doesn't surprise me at all. [Laughs] Because she was certainly a leader. Sue Embrey and Rose Ochi are the two women that really stood out in my mind as been the real strength of that whole pilgrimage concept.

KL: What roles did they each play?

ER: Well, they seemed to be, seemed like they had the officership in the internment committee. They were... I'm not sure what the elected officials were, but they were the ones that were the backbone of getting it going and keeping it up.

KL: Of the Manzanar Committee?

ER: Well, yeah, of everything related to the pilgrimages, and then they moved into that. And they were the ones that did the lobbying and all that. So I don't know that I have enough memory to feed more on that. But Sue, she was obviously a natural on that committee, the advisory committee.

KL: And then this was in later years, Rose Ochi did become the chair later when Sue wasn't able to do it anymore.

ER: And that doesn't surprise me at all; she certainly deserved that.

KL: Any other specific memories of Rose's personality or motivations?

ER: No. I found her very intelligent, very... and she had a good way, a good lobbyist, and good person, having good opinions and being able to present them very effectively. Most of those women I just can't say anything less than highest praise for both of them. They were champions on that committee.

KL: Bill Michael of the Eastern California Museum was vice chair the whole time.

ER: Excellent. I really enjoyed working with him. All the years I was in Death Valley, we had a relationship, and I think his involvement in Manzanar was outstanding, and he certainly deserved the role he got there.

KL: Can you talk a little bit about what his involvement with Manzanar was before the advisory commission?

ER: Well, being the director of the museum, in Independence they have a big collection there on Manzanar. So it was an obvious tie-in for him.

KL: Keith Bright, who was supervisor?

ER: Yeah. He's... I don't remember much about Keith Bright in relationship to Manzanar, but he was a very effective supervisor, one who had very strong opinions, and was well-respected even in Washington. I recall once when I was in the office of Congressman Jerry Lewis, a Republican who was first against Manzanar -- or I'm sorry, against the (California) Desert Protection Act, and voted to have just one dollar to fund Mojave. I was in his office saying, "Well, here's maybe a different approach we should look at for Death Valley and the (California) Desert Protection Act." He said, "Ed, let me get Keith Bright on the phone and see what he says about this." So there was a congressman that wasn't going to say anything to me until he talked to Keith. And so he was that kind of person. He was a very strong personality, but a very likeable individual. Did you get to meet him? He's passed away now, I assume.

KL: His granddaughter works at Manzanar as a ranger. So I never met him, but I know her pretty well.

ER: Is that right? Okay.

KL: Martha Davis of the Mono Lake Committee?

ER: I've met her but I just don't remember her enough to comment on that.

KL: Ron Izumita we've talked about already.

ER: Yes.

KL: Gann Matsuda, who was connected to student groups in Southern California?

ER: Yeah. Right now I kind of recognize the name, but I don't think I knew him very well, personally. Maybe I met him.

KL: Vernon Miller, who was an Owens Valley Paiute community member.

ER: I remember meeting him, but I don't know him well enough to comment.

KL: Mas Okui we've talked about a bit.

ER: Oh, yeah.

KL: Anything else you want to add about Mas?

ER: No, he was just a delight to walk through the area, the town site, the community site, and hear his stories about playing under the barracks when he was kid and all. I think he was a great asset to have someone like that, background on the advisory board.

KL: Dennis Otsuji we've talked about at some length. Glenn Singley, Department of Water and Power?

ER: I remember... it seemed like he was a very positive person, but I don't remember... it's appropriate to get somebody from Water and Power on that committee, I mean, there's, you get the stakeholders. It was essential to have somebody from them, that he would have been a good choice.

KL: Richard Stewart.

ER: I got to attend a couple sessions where he was there, and there's another stakeholder that was a good, good representative of the Native Americans to be on the committee. I enjoyed him and his talent in pottery. [Laughs]

KL: [Addressing AL] Anything else you want to...

AL: I have a question. Pete Merritt, I've seen in the files that he nominated himself or was nominated to be on the Manzanar Advisory Commission. And obviously being Ralph Merritt's son, had a strong connection. And I was curious if you knew why, anything about the deliberations about whether or not Pete Merritt would be part of it.

ER: I don't remember that, but Pete was, we got to know Pete personally. He's just the salt of the earth, great guy. And we've walked with him, in fact, I think the one hike that Mas took us to the area, the rubber plant factory and the camouflage factory, I think Merritt was with us there. But we got to be good friends. You've got a copy of his book, you probably sell his book, do you not, there at Manzanar? But he was, he was great. His father was, it sounds like, a really neat person to be in charge of that camp.

AL: But you don't know why he wasn't selected?

ER: I have no idea. Because Ross and I came up with names, and we had no involvement beyond that. And I guess I'd forgotten that he wasn't selected then. See, I guess I didn't, I remember the big long list of names, and certainly he merited being on that list.

<Begin Segment 12>

KL: I wanted to kind of get a process by which this unit was established and really got up and started, and I've think we've done some of that. But is there anything you wanted to add to that, relative especially to, like, early planning efforts or archaeology, the land swap that happened?

ER: There was a lot of that, some of it I was involved in, some I wasn't. It seemed like Dave Cherry's office coordinated pretty much with WACC and all to get some of those things going, those studies. The one that I was involved in slightly before I left was the buyout of the building down there that the county used for maintenance. And we were to get, what is it, five million or something from Washington to buy out the county, so they built their new maintenance facility there at Independence. And that was neat to see that happen, that we were able to get the money to get them out of that building. And it was a horrible mess, if you saw it, probably not before it was cleaned up, but it was really a mess with all the oil and grease, it was a mess. But that was the kind of thing... and it was great that there was money coming forward to do things like that. But I think it just, I was so pleased to go back for the dedication of the visitor center to see, wow, how that had grown so rapidly from its beginnings there. It's really a first-class park.

KL: It sounds like WACC had a pretty high level of involvement with early Manzanar stuff. We didn't really talk about that, anything you want to say about that?

ER: Yeah. I don't know that I have really much to add, but Jeff Burton is the one who saw the most, and the work that he had done there. And Roger Kelly the archaeologist, he was with the regional office, but is an archaeologist. But some of the names you had on that list of the park people that, really great people to be involved in getting things together and getting the documentation.

KL: One of the things that kind of came out in that first Manzanar Advisory Commission was Jeff studied the "Three Farewells to Manzanar" and the three different groups that had made a big impression on that site, Paiute community and the Orchard community and the Japanese American confined community. And then when Manzanar was established, sort of the thinking, I think, was that this was going to be a representative site for Japanese American confinement story during World War II. Did you have any thoughts about any of those themes or sort of why or how they played out? It's not a very well-worded question, I apologize.

ER: No. It sounds great, and moving in that direction. One thing I think does surprise me a little bit. It seemed like all the talk was about Manzanar in those early years. But now you're getting, I still get the regular reports from, I guess it's Denver. I got one just the other day on all the grant proposals. I mean, boy, Heart Butte is getting all kinds of money.

KL: Heart Mountain?

ER: Heart Mountain, yeah. And I'm amazed at how all these areas are starting to rise in popularity and support. And I guess at one point I thought Manzanar was going to be probably the one out there, but now they're all getting a piece of it, which is great. Different parts of the country, different people.

KL: Anything else that you wanted to say about discussion of the National Park Service's interaction with the Japanese American community, particularly the Manzanar Committee?

ER: No. I thought that the National Park Service was very positive and had good relationships with everybody, and I assume that still continues.

KL: Any guidance for other units like Minidoka or Tule Lake as they move forward in terms of what worked or what didn't in Manzanar's relationship?

ER: Well, I don't know. I don't know what's happening in the other areas, although I see they're getting grant money and doing things. We stopped up at Heart Mountain a couple years ago, but it's just driving in, I don't remember being anything there except the chimney and a couple buildings or so. But I'm trying to, if we get close to some of those sites, I like to swing in and see how it's going.

KL: Yeah, I think that involvement is really important, and from people's comments, it sounds like it was a big part of Manzanar's establishment, and to our minds, still is a very big part of it. So anything that you think helps to foster that, or anything that you saw as a potential hazard to that, probably be good to let those other units, and even us, to go forward with Manzanar, know about.

ER: Well, it seems like the key thing is to get interested stakeholders to help support. It's just like Tule Springs here, that's been, two women got that, three women who got that started more than eight years ago have been working on that ever since. But they were very wise in getting the stakeholders, they got the Air Force to be a stakeholder to support the national monument right on their boundary. They got, whether it's three ex-Park superintendents on that committee: myself, JT Reynolds, and Alan O'Neill. So we're three, and those two have done more than I have because I've been a snowbird and gone six months.

<Begin Segment 13>

KL: You've kind of glanced over and into a little bit the National Park Service's interactions with other Owens Valley stakeholders like Inyo County government, just private Inyo County citizens, Department of Water and Power. Are there any memorable things you want to bring out about how that worked or why it was important?

ER: Well, when I arrived in Death Valley in '82, I can say I inherited an area that was pretty weak on public relations. And I started going to Inyo Associates, which is an organization -- have you ever been to an Inyo Associates meeting?

KL: Yeah, but if someone watches this, they may not know what it is, even.

ER: Okay. The thing that I found at the time I was there, that was a meeting that we'd always count on some of the elected officials there, the county commissioner's there, the head of DWP, the sheriff, very key people, but then were some private citizens there, too. And I felt that was a very key meeting for me to attend once a month. And if I couldn't go, I sent one of my division chiefs. And I think I really helped our communications and our rapport in the area. And it helped me as a superintendent, there were some people, sometimes I'd give a little report on how things are going in Death Valley, here are some of the issues. And sometimes there'd be something kind of critical, but we had a chance to discuss it briefly there at a social dinner. It bothers me a little bit, I don't think, if you've been there, I don't know that Death Valley is represented today as it used to be. But I think that needs to happen in communities. People, the park officials, the superintendent and key staff need to be involved in the community. I recall at Death Valley, we got a letter with a hundred people from the little town of, oh gosh, what's the name of the little town out west of Death Valley?

KL: Shoshone? Oh, west.

ER: (No J-Trona). It's Trona. Strange little town. And we got a petition with I don't know if it was eighty or a hundred and something names on it, opposing some things in Death Valley. And I thought, my gosh, we haven't really interacted with Trona, we got this big old petition. And it was dealing with mining issues. So Bob Mitcham was my chief mining engineer, I said, "Bob," I called over there, I can't remember the name of the woman, she's the one who signed, here's the petition, she's the one who organized it. So I called her and I said, "We've got to talk." And she said, "Well, every such and such, once a month at the senior citizen, we have a luncheon. Why don't you come and speak?" So Bob Mitcham and I went over, and we had a chance. I mean, we were in the hotbed of people that signed petitions against what we were proposing in Death Valley. But it really turned things around, because we got to sit there and break bread with them. We talked about the issues, and we understood their role better, they understood ours. And that, we found issues all around Death Valley that we had to work on. And I think any of these areas, when you talked about any other sites with the Native Americans, whoever's in charge there or involved, needs to get around all these little pockets of lack of support or support just so everybody understands each other. And that was something that I really worked hard on in Death Valley. It sounds like maybe it's just dropped off a little bit. One thing, I know the job is tougher now, superintendents have to travel more, they've got less money. But I always found a way to try to do it. In fact, one thing that I... have they chosen a superintendent yet for Death Valley?

KL: There's an acting.

ER: Just an acting. Because I attended, when I was down there last, and I know they've had a lot of problems locally with some internal problems with the 49ers and Xanterra and all that, and I thought I should write to the regional director and say whoever you pick better be strong on public relations. Be willing to go out of your way to meet with people, friend and foe, and to listen to 'em and get their take on it. Maybe you don't agree on things, but maybe if you understand why you disagree... and I felt it's like of a little weak now on Death Valley, and it was very weak when I got here thirty years ago. [Laughs] Wow, before you guys were born?

KL: So I'm going to cut like a page and a half of things so that we can respect your time. But the last question that I'll ask you is how does your vision of... when Manzanar was first established, the thinking that you had about staff, about planning, about facilities management, even questions like staff housing or whether there would be a law enforcement presence, how does that thinking from the mid-'90s compare with what has developed at Manzanar? What do you recommend as far as going forward?

ER: Well, I don't remember the details, but I guess I'm really pleased to see how things have happened. And I assume... I doubt that there's any need for staff housing in Manzanar, but I assume the staff, whether you live in Independence or Lone Pine or out in the country someplace...

KL: And Big Pine and Bishop.

ER: Yeah. But it seems... and the law enforcement, I'm not sure, do you have a law enforcement specialist? But you have the concurrent jurisdiction with the county, so they handle... are they responsive if you get an emergency or some issue, you get good support quick? And, see, there's a good place where public relations is really important in Inyo. You've got the county commissioner there in charge of your area, and someone from the sheriff's department and local police, as long as you've got a good working relationship with them, then you don't really maybe need that next level.

KL: Alisa, anything you wanted to get to? We need to have time to clean up, too.

AL: Yeah, I had a couple questions. One is kind of a follow-up to something Kristen alluded to, which is the balance of the history at Manzanar. Obviously right now we're very heavily focused on Japanese American history. There are some locals who feel like at some point they were promised -- and maybe they were -- that it was going to be the story, there would be sort of equal air time for the town of Manzanar, the Owens Valley Paiute. Just sort of your recollections of those discussions and your perspective on that.

ER: As I recall, all those need to be addressed, but I think I was in the point that the big fifty percent or so or more has got to be the Japanese American. I mean, that seems, it's got to always be the big story. But down there at another level, maybe ten percent or twenty percent should be the apple orchards and the ranching, the Native American. I would hate to see any of that have equal weight. It seems like those are... when you look at the history, just like when you go to Death Valley, you learn a little bit about the rocks and a little about you build the story. And it seems like there you've got to tell a little bit of the story of the valley, of the Owens Valley and the Native Americans and all, but I think that's got to be much subordinate to the main theme of the internment camp.

<Begin Segment 14>

KL: One wrap-up question. You said in your interview with ANPR that your first interview for a National Park Service job or any job, the superintendent of the Blue Ridge Parkway really wanted to have an in-person interview to ensure that he was not going to have a minority on his staff. And then in 1994, you end your Park Service career overseeing or being a key player in the establishment of Manzanar National Historic Site. And I wonder if you would just comment on how either within the National Park Service or in society at large, what your observations are on that shift.

ER: That could be a long story on that. For myself, I think I've always felt that way from, in college when I first started being... people of color, some of my best friends in college were people of color. And to me, it offended me. In fact, I quit going to the church I went to because they did not want to have a person of color come to the church. That's not what church is about; that was the last time I've been in a church. So I've had strong feelings that way. I had a person of color as a roommate in college for a few years, I spent four years in the U.S. Virgin Islands where I was by far the minority there. But I guess I kind of like to feel I'm colorblind in that regard. So to me it was natural doing this. I just enjoyed people for who they are and not what they look like. And in some ways, I think the Park Service has come a long way from where it was back in the '50s and '60, it's come a long, long way. But it's disappointing how far we need to go yet. I mean, just now, watching the news and seeing the discussions of Ferguson, Missouri, there. I think the whole nation, we've somehow got to move farther ahead than we are when it comes to race relations and all that. It's kind of sad to see that we still have some people that think like they did a hundred years ago when it comes to race issues. I think on the park side... well, I was in the U.S. Virgin Islands for their fiftieth anniversary a few years back, because I served four years down there. And when I was down there, the staff was predominately West Indians. And I looked at the picture, and I see so many non-West Indians there, and I thought, my gosh, we should have more minorities in the Park Service. We should see more people of different color and backgrounds in our parks than we do. But it's tough sometimes. You know, Glacier, we've had a few... when I worked eight years there, we had a few that came in, but found it an uncomfortable climate. It was a lonely place for 'em, and we didn't do a very good job of retaining people. But we've got a long way, I think we've come a long way, but we've still got miles to go.

KL: Thank you so much for spending this time with us this morning and for sharing these details. I didn't expect to get to hear so much about those pilgrimages that you attended, so there were lots of even unexpected great content, so thank you very much.

ER: Oh, yeah. Yeah, the people are just wonderful. To hear their stories, and the couple that I think I tried to see if we could interview with the one who's got dementia there. But when I talked to him for several years, just walking the dog, and talked dog talk, and I just had to make that comment one day, "Does Manzanar mean anything?" "Oh, yeah. My wife, we were in Manzanar." And he was just all positive, happy memories, but his memories are gone, disappearing, and they didn't want to be interviewed. But the other woman, whose name I can't recall, she did say she would follow through an interview, she took the packet. Somewhere in there I've got her name and contact. We went up to visit her and gave her the packet. In fact, I gave her all the current literature on Manzanar, so she was pretty familiar with it.