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AL: Yeah, I was just curious a little bit about that, because I know that two other confinement sites, Tule Lake is paired with Lava Beds, Minidoka is paired with Hagerman. And I've always assumed that the pairing of Manzanar and Death Valley was just that little getting up and started. But you feel like it was just interpersonal? You think if it had not been Ross and Stan that it would have been a standalone to begin with?

ER: That I don't know. It might have been.

KL: Well, it was authorized before there was a staff, so, I mean, the fact that it was with Death Valley, that was pretty...

ER: Yeah. See, what had happened is after that park as a site was established, we started getting a lot, Ross and I both started getting a lot of feedback from the Japanese American community and the citizens of the Owens Valley. "We've got a park here now, when are we gonna have somebody on site? When are we gonna have a superintendent here on site?" And here again I went to Stan. I said, "Stan, we're getting these comments or questions from the Japanese American community, all the people involved, the Owens Valley people, when are we going to get a superintendent for Manzanar?" It's been established now for x number of months or so. And his comments, I can almost quote. He said, "We will not put a superintendent there until Congress appropriates the money and the positions for us to do it." And I remember saying, "Stan, all the time we get parks, look at Mojave." We got the park, and we got one dollar for the first year to run it. And you know what happens? You take money from other parks and position other parks and get it up and running until Congress can act. "Nope, I'm not going to do that for Manzanar. Nothing until Congress approves it." And that's when I had to go to the director. And the next day Stan called me and said, "We're having a superintendent now at Manzanar. Which division chief do you want to give me?" [Laughs] And I said Ross. Ross has been a good champion, he's been... I went all through the respect that Ross had in the community, and he would love to have the job. He said, "Fine, Ross will be the superintendent, and you cannot fill behind him until Congress appropriates the money and the position for Manzanar, then we can give you back the position Ross was in." So we has an acting chief interpreter until after I retired. But that... several times in my career I gave up money to Great Basin when it was established as a National Park, money to Channel Islands. Death Valley, there were a tendency -- and I assume it still goes on -- that parks pony up some money to help a new fledgling area to get started.

KL: When Ross Hopkins became Manzanar superintendent, did he immediately move to the Owens Valley, or did he have a period where he worked in Death Valley?

ER: Well, it was pretty quick after that. I don't recall the timeframe, but he got a house there and moved to Independence while I was still there.

KL: And as far as Stan Albright's attitude, you mentioned his friend in Bishop and also sort of a personality issue with him and Hopkins. Did you ever hear him say anything about either race himself or attitudes toward a historic site as opposed to a more, sort of, classic park?

ER: I never heard him say that, but I always assumed that he was a big tree man. [Laughs]

[Interruption]

ER: Well, it was kind of interesting. So, I was willing to give up Ross and to get Manzanar, hallelujah, it happened. And I said, "Stan, the pilgrimage is coming up in April, and this is a wonderful time now, in another month and a half, for you to come down maybe just a guest speaker." And he was invited in to speak. I said, "This would be a great time, as you speak about Manzanar Historic Site, is to anoint Ross and introduce Ross Hopkins as now is your superintendent. "No, I'm not going to do it." So I called Washington again, and this time, Roger Kennedy (was director but not in) the office, but John Reynolds was acting director. And I said, "John, I've got another problem with Stan." And he said, "Ed, I'll take care of it." So about half an hour later, I got a call from Stan. Stan said, "Ed, you write my speech. You include what I should say about Ross," period. [Laughs] And Stan, he's a good professional, he got up there and gave a good talk. We got a new historic site and he was all positive and everything, "And I'd like you to meet Ross Hopkins, many of you worked with him. He's your new superintendent." And people applauded, and so it went well. But the hell I caught getting him to the stage. And again, there's John Reynolds stepping in, and Roger Kennedy, I mean, there were, the two top guys up there stepped in.

KL: I'm not sure we captured on the recording when Roger Kennedy sort of interjected, or you asked him to interject himself. Would you tell that circumstance?

ER: Well, it had to be sometime, 1982, somewhere along in -- '92, I'm sorry. Somewhere along in there, I don't recall the exact days. I was at some session back in Washington and there was a cocktail party somewhere, and there was Roger Kennedy. And I said, "I hate to bring this up at a cocktail sessions, but I've got a problem with my regional director." He said, "That's nothing new, I hear that from a lot of superintendents." [Laughs]

KL: And the problem was just general lack of support at that point?

ER: Well, it was failure to get a superintendent. That was the only time I ever talked to Roger Kennedy about Manzanar, is when I said, "We need a superintendent there." I mentioned the arguments that I gave earlier. And that's the only time I ever talked to him until five, six years ago when I happened to be at a conference that he was speaking, and I went up afterwards, and he remembered the incident and said, "You did the right thing, Ed, thank you." [Laughs]

KL: What actions did he take in response to your bringing it up?

ER: You mean originally?

KL: Yeah.

ER: Oh. When he got... the next day, when he got to the office, he called Stan Albright and said, "You get a superintendent at Manzanar now." [Laughs] That's all he did. Then minutes later I get a call. I was at home, and it was, oh, I guess it was Monday. I'd just gotten back from Washington late that night, so I was going to take Monday off. And so Roger Kennedy must have called Stan early Monday morning, then Stan called me at home because he knew I wasn't coming to work. And Marge, when I got off the phone, she said, "Ed, my god, you were on the phone for an hour and half. What was it?" Well, I was getting chewed out, and gave up Ross to be the superintendent. But those kind of memories stick in mind.

<End Segment 9> - Copyright © 2015 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.