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KL: These are all things, I think, that happened after Congress acted to authorize Manzanar. And you've talked about the pilgrimages, but is there anything else that you remember from pre-1992 that, of the National Park Service's involvement? You mentioned a couple planning meetings, maybe, like in the earlier '90s.

ER: Yeah, and I'm not sure just of the timeframe in there, but I think prior to '92, most of it was just person interested, myself and members of my staff who just got interested in the story up there, and got acquainted. I'm not sure just when the first official planning started, but it had to be somewhere in that '91, '92 area. Here's where I'm missing my notes to tell me some of these specifics. You might have records of that.

KL: Where did those early meetings occur? Were you in Washington ever, or Los Angeles, or was it all...

ER: Well, when the park was established, Dennis Otsuji and I made a couple trips. We went, the two of us went to Washington and put on a presentation to the staff there. We went to the regional office and made a presentation. I can't remember whether we were both at Lake Mead, but I definitely was Lake Mead and made a presentation on Manzanar. And I think we did one in the Los Angeles area, talking about, we got a fantastic park here that's got a rich history that needs to be told and preserved. And this is the park and what we hope will happen. I think somewhere in that stack there I found my notes on the talk I gave in Washington when I was back there with the slides.

KL: Why Lake Mead?

ER: Pardon?

KL: Why Lake Mead?

ER: Well, I can't say. Jerry Wagers was the superintendent there. He may have invited me to come over and give the talk. And I almost feel I was invited to do that. It wasn't, I didn't volunteer to do it. But once I got the invite, I couldn't pass it up.

KL: Do you remember who was present at the presentation at the regional office? I mean, there's some dichotomy and support and lack of support there. What was that presentation like?

ER: Yeah, it seemed like the room was full, but all the key players that we talked about were all there. But I can't recall any naysayers in that session. There may have been some, and I'm not even sure if Stan was there. He would have been a naysayer had he been there, he'd have been quiet.

KL: What about in Washington? Was that at DOI?

ER: Yeah. It was one of those sessions they have periodically up in the Mead auditorium, and they had it. And I think that was all just positive, too. I can't think of... and that's history. I mean, just getting older, you forget the bad things sometimes, the negative things, you remember the fun things, the good things. But I felt positive about all those meetings that we attended, and I really appreciate that Dennis Otsuji, who could talk as a Japanese American and his involvement there, he was there. And I'm glad to see he was involved in the advisory board, and I guess he's still involved in it.

KL: He is. He's done designs of landscaping elements as people walk up to the visitors center.

ER: I haven't seen him since they had... I'm not even sure if, he was there, I think, for the dedication, but did we meet or not? That's fuzzy right now, just who was there. There was an awful lot going on that night, afternoon. But give him my regards if you see him, because I have the highest regard for he, and, in fact, that whole group that came out there, just outstanding people. But he and Ron were the two that made permanent impressions with me, and mainly Ron's father.

KL: Yeah, that's a pretty good story. What about the L.A. meeting? Do you remember where that was, or were there Park Service people in attendance, or a couple?

ER: It was Little Tokyo, and it seemed like there were some people from Santa Monica who were there, but I don't remember specifically. Ross and I, and there was probably somebody from the region. Maybe somewhere in the pile, so we can find who attended, was there maybe somebody else you've talked to that had more information on that. Sorry.

AL: Did anybody who opposed Manzanar show up? Like did Lillian, do you remember Lillian Baker?

ER: Well, I'm not sure. I know Lillian Baker so much from Ross's comments and Ross's notes that he sent me, and her letters to the editor in the paper. And I honestly, I probably had met her, but there's nothing that I can comment on firsthand.

KL: You don't remember any opposition really being vocalized at those...

ER: At the meetings? Honestly, I can't right now. And that could just be faulty memory. But I just have the feeling that I was pleased at the support that people seemed to give. And I'll have to later tell you about the one negative support or lack of support we got.

KL: Yeah, we'll get there. The only other question I have about those meetings was if you remember any particular elements of the landscape plan, either from the presentation or from your onsite visits to Manzanar? What did Dennis and Ron and others think was... what was their vision?

ER: Okay. The plan that I briefed when we got copies of it, I just thought sounded pretty close to what we talked about. It seemed like there was some pro and con discussions, do we really want to put the guard tower up there? It seemed like there was pro and con on that. Barbed wire fence... there were a few issues like that that seemed like, I recall, were pro and con issues. But looking at how it's going, I just was kind of excited. I was glad to send my check the other day for the latrines. [Laughs]

KL: Yeah, well, I'm glad you sent it, too, because it connected us. Do you remember any of the specifics of what the arguments for and against the guard tower or the fence?

ER: Not offhand, no. Whether... I'd be speculating if I tried it, yes.

KL: Alisa, did you want to ask anything else about the pre-1992 or the landscape efforts?

AL: I think maybe you've already covered this, but just sort of key individuals of what their connections were and why they were involved? Or maybe you're going to get to later down the list, but just what was motivating people for their moment? But I think we can cover that later, too.

KL: Okay.

AL: Because I think the story of Ron's father, that's tremendous. Those kind of stories and connections that we don't, we have no way of knowing existed.

KL: Yeah, because that might not make it into the minutes.

ER: You can bounce some of this off Dennis, too, because his memory might be better than mine, probably is better than mine. But he has the same take, and he may know his father's name.

KL: We'll have to look for that, yeah, yeah.

<End Segment 5> - Copyright © 2015 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.