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KL: One wrap-up question. You said in your interview with ANPR that your first interview for a National Park Service job or any job, the superintendent of the Blue Ridge Parkway really wanted to have an in-person interview to ensure that he was not going to have a minority on his staff. And then in 1994, you end your Park Service career overseeing or being a key player in the establishment of Manzanar National Historic Site. And I wonder if you would just comment on how either within the National Park Service or in society at large, what your observations are on that shift.

ER: That could be a long story on that. For myself, I think I've always felt that way from, in college when I first started being... people of color, some of my best friends in college were people of color. And to me, it offended me. In fact, I quit going to the church I went to because they did not want to have a person of color come to the church. That's not what church is about; that was the last time I've been in a church. So I've had strong feelings that way. I had a person of color as a roommate in college for a few years, I spent four years in the U.S. Virgin Islands where I was by far the minority there. But I guess I kind of like to feel I'm colorblind in that regard. So to me it was natural doing this. I just enjoyed people for who they are and not what they look like. And in some ways, I think the Park Service has come a long way from where it was back in the '50s and '60, it's come a long, long way. But it's disappointing how far we need to go yet. I mean, just now, watching the news and seeing the discussions of Ferguson, Missouri, there. I think the whole nation, we've somehow got to move farther ahead than we are when it comes to race relations and all that. It's kind of sad to see that we still have some people that think like they did a hundred years ago when it comes to race issues. I think on the park side... well, I was in the U.S. Virgin Islands for their fiftieth anniversary a few years back, because I served four years down there. And when I was down there, the staff was predominately West Indians. And I looked at the picture, and I see so many non-West Indians there, and I thought, my gosh, we should have more minorities in the Park Service. We should see more people of different color and backgrounds in our parks than we do. But it's tough sometimes. You know, Glacier, we've had a few... when I worked eight years there, we had a few that came in, but found it an uncomfortable climate. It was a lonely place for 'em, and we didn't do a very good job of retaining people. But we've got a long way, I think we've come a long way, but we've still got miles to go.

KL: Thank you so much for spending this time with us this morning and for sharing these details. I didn't expect to get to hear so much about those pilgrimages that you attended, so there were lots of even unexpected great content, so thank you very much.

ER: Oh, yeah. Yeah, the people are just wonderful. To hear their stories, and the couple that I think I tried to see if we could interview with the one who's got dementia there. But when I talked to him for several years, just walking the dog, and talked dog talk, and I just had to make that comment one day, "Does Manzanar mean anything?" "Oh, yeah. My wife, we were in Manzanar." And he was just all positive, happy memories, but his memories are gone, disappearing, and they didn't want to be interviewed. But the other woman, whose name I can't recall, she did say she would follow through an interview, she took the packet. Somewhere in there I've got her name and contact. We went up to visit her and gave her the packet. In fact, I gave her all the current literature on Manzanar, so she was pretty familiar with it.

<End Segment 14> - Copyright © 2015 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.