Densho Digital Archive - Saburo Masada Interview (denshovh-msaburo-01-0019)

<Begin Segment 19>

KL: You mentioned the Tule Lake pilgrimage. How did you become involved with the Tule Lake pilgrimages?

SM: Well, knowing that there was this terrible conflict between the "no-nos" and the "yes-yes," and the "no-nos" being so stigmatized and ashamed, we, Marion and I wanted to, not just read about what was the problem, we wanted to hear the people at that side who shared what they were going through. And so we decided to go there, so the last four years, four pilgrimages we've been going, and it's been a wonderful learning experience and just such a rich experience.

KL: If someone watches this in fifty years, who doesn't know very much, how would you characterize the Tule Lake pilgrimage for them? What happens on it, what's it like? Who's the key parts of that?

SM: Yeah, I'd say that Tule Lake pilgrimage is, was an opportunity to hear people's stories, and these stories were not, would not validate the conflict that was going on in the camps, over the loyalty questionnaire. But those stories were so varied and so understandable and so human that it had little to do with being disloyal or being patriotic. Yeah. And the strong sense that I got from attending, early on, was here we were fighting each other and we should've been fighting our government who was doing us in, but here the government had us fighting each other. And I guess that's an example of divide and conquer, because the government had Ben Kuroki talk to the draft resisters and try to tell them that they should join and be drafted and things like that. So unfortunately, Ben was so, just sucked into the mindset he really didn't understand, and I'd say many of the JACL leaders could not comprehend why the resisters and why the "no-nos," it was just too black and white. If you were for the government you answered yes, if you're against your government you answered no. Had nothing to do with the government, it had to do with constitutional rights and being Americans. But the JACL leaders are, most of them are very young, and so they did the best they could, but the best they could was so, what's the word, contaminated with our cultural upbringing of kowtowing, of accommodating and not rocking the boat and just being submissive to the authorities. And that just was wrong and inappropriate. Not that we could have done anything more about it, but at least we shouldn't have been so, so... what's the word, like sheep led into slaughter.