<Begin Segment 27>

KL: Tape four, continuing an interview today with Jim Shibata on December 4, 2013. And we were just talking about your education after being in the Air Force and adult life. And one thing we talked about before the interview started that I wanted to hear more about on the tape was your involvement with aikido. And I wonder if you could tell me how that started and just more about that.

MS: It all started when I attended the demonstration of aikido. However, it wasn't the demonstration that impressed me so much. They had a little write up of what aikido was about. This goes back to way before I started. However, what was written on that piece of paper really kind of triggered my interest that, hey, this is something that's going to be what I would really like to train in. And before that I had a little, just a little bit of judo training in Japan. But I didn't go very far, I didn't get very far in it. But this, for some deep reason, was something that I just remembered, that I'm interested in this and I may look into this. But it didn't happen until 1968.

KL: When was the demonstration?

MS: The demonstration was way before... I can't remember the year, but it was a number of years before I actually sought a place to train in.

KL: What was it that grabbed you about what you read?

MS: It talked about something besides just competition, and I can't remember the exact word that triggered my interest, but at least I remembered that I was interested in it and I was going to look for a place to train. So in 1968, which was years after, I can't remember the number of years, but years after I got interested in, I looked for a place, and I could only find one place in this whole L.A. area that had aikido training, and that place still exists today. It is called the L.A. Aikikai, or Los Angeles Aikikai. And so I started there. And while I was there, one of the instructors there... there were several instructors that taught the classes, there were many classes there. And one of the instructors I found out had another club at the Torrance high school, it's called West High School in Torrance, that he was conducting another class of aikido in. And I found out that his class was close to where I was living, so therefore... and then I didn't, I wasn't too satisfied with the L.A. Aikikai, so therefore I transferred to the other aikido class at the West High School.

And there I continued for a long time with that class, whose instructor had another class going in the L.A. area, more central to L.A., which was more his headquarters class. So I became, so I started training at West High School as well as his other class, and I trained with him for quite a long time until about 19'... okay, it was about 1986. I said I started in '86, but it was actually '68 that I started, 1968. By 1986, I decided, okay, this training is not getting me to where I should be going, getting to. So therefore I was going to look for another class that would satisfy my own expectations, or go independent and do my own research.

And just at that time, one other person who was originally from Japan, invited another master instructor from Japan to conduct a seminar in the Los Angeles area. And so anyway, I decided after I met this master instructor, I decided I'm very interested in this training, because I was impressed with his character when I met him, and I'll tell you why afterwards. And so I decided, okay, I'm going to... okay. And the person who invited this master instructor asked me if I were interested in supporting his seminars in this country or in the L.A. area, and I said yes, I will be. And so later after that, about five of our, five groups of aikido practitioners, decided that they would like to join in a group that would be invited to his seminars.

But to make the story short, what I wanted to do was to dedicate the training to the master instructors, master instructor's training. However, the rest of the people, except one person who was the original person who invited him to this country, was interested in dedicating or completely dedicating our training to this master instructor. Because they wanted to keep associating with their old group and inviting other instructors for seminars. So I just ended up with another person as a group to continue inviting the so-called master instructors, instructor. And so that this went on for roughly thirteen, fourteen years.

And before I go on, let me tell you why I was very impressed with this person, which I still am, however, he's already passed away in 2005. He showed what I later found out what the training, this aikido training is all about. And this aikido training I'm referring to is the aikido training from the founder of this aikido that many people are trying to study. He kind of fitted the description of what this training was about, in other words, a true character transformation of that person, of each person, in order to really understand what aikido training is about. So somehow I realized that, okay, this person had that already, this person, because of his transformation of character, he was... he influenced me. And indeed, about thirteen years later, I realized I was correct, because his training methodology follows his founder's philosophy and what this aikido training is about. However, hardly anybody understood what the philosophy of the founder was as he stated it. However, this other person, other master instructor I'm referring to, knew how to express that better than that founder. And that's my impression, and I think others have found it the same, the same thing. So that it follows that if you could master, several master instructors' lesson training methods, then you should be able to approach the founder's aikido. This is how I continued to train with him for thirteen, fourteen years, and I'm still mentally going over his methodology of training.

[Interruption]

MS: Okay, so the challenge now is to prove that I have found the right way to train, to approach the original founder's aikido.

KL: And you were talking before we started the interview about, you gave a really just eloquent sort of description of the philosophy of aikido, and you said earlier in the tape that it wasn't about competition, but I wonder if you would say what it is about.

MS: It's about this character transformation that a person has to go through to understand what the founder was talking about. And that character transformation is to return to the universe and return to the divine. In other words, the universe that I'm describing is the universal... well, universal complete... okay, what I'm describing is the universal harmony which is actually the universe, how things happen, and to be in harmony with how things happen. For example, how much of the universe do we really know? Scientists are discovering new things about the universe every day, but this aikido is to be able to harmonize with that changing universe. So that if you are able to do that, it is that divine station that is identical to that divine, that's how I interpret it, okay. In other words, that is God, the universe is God, who knows exactly what the universe is about. So if you could get into that, become that, if you could become that, then you will really understand and be able to do what the founder did physically. That's where the demonstration of the techniques come in. It's almost like the experiments which proves the philosophy or the theory. So that's where I want to be. So far, nobody has reached that point, or caught up with the founder. And the founder said, "After you catch up with me, there's more. You have to keep going," because the universe is changing, so that there's more. Just catching up with him is getting to where he got, and you have to keep going. So that's why I say it's the same as the divine.

KL: Who is the founder?

MS: His name is Morihei Ueshiba.

KL: And this instructor that you had is still...

MS: His name is... what's his first name? Shoji Nishio. Well, that's how my memory's going right now, bang, bang, bang. That's why he's been so important to me, and unfortunately, can you believe it, he was just one year older than I, and he passed away in 2005. That's why it was kind of, really, really too early, because I could have learned, everybody could have learned much more from him. So he really kind of assured me that, okay, we're on the right path towards the founder. Many of what's going on, I've been outspoken again about this, that many of what's going on labeled aikido is not on the same path, because you could just tell by what the technique demonstration shows. So it's very important. It's like you're just enjoying the conflicts and the violence that's going on, yeah, the violence that goes on today. If you don't enjoy that, you have to get on the other path, osensei's path. Osensei is the name we use -- osensei means the great teacher or the unique teacher. That's what we call the founder.

KL: What is your group called, or your practice?

MS: Well, we have our name, our practice is the Venice Aikido Club, which is sponsored by the Venice (...) Community Center. And so we as a club follow this teaching, which also, what I'm implying here is that other clubs may or may not be following the same teaching. So this is why, when you want to study aikido, you have to make sure you want to study, which is on the right path.

KL: Yeah, it sounds like it's been very hard.

MS: But the members of other groups will tell you differently. [Laughs]

<End Segment 27> - Copyright © 2013 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.