<Begin Segment 1>

KL: Okay, this is Kristen Luetkemeier from Manzanar National Historic Site. Today is August 21, 2012, and I'm in Las Vegas at the Main Street Hotel with the Sumi sisters, Miho Shiro...

MS: ...ishi.

KL: Shiroishi, and Sachi Okamoto. And we're here for an oral history interview about their childhood in Terminal Island, their experiences in Manzanar, and their adult lives after World War II. And Ashley Nottingham is recording, and Alisa Lynch and Jeff Burton are also here in the room. And before we start with the questions, Miho and Sachi, do I have your permission to record this interview, to keep it at Manzanar, and make it available to the public?

MS: Oh, sure.

SO: Yes.

KL: Thank you. Thank you very much. I want to start asking you about your parents and a little bit about their background. Would you tell us your father's name?

MS: Our father's name, Risaburo, R-I-S-A-B-U-R-O, Sumi. And mother's name, K-A-Z-U-Y-E, Sumi.

KL: Where was your father from?

MS: They were both from Wakayama, Japan, and he came here when he was eighteen, and she later, about eighteen. Later, right?

SO: He came over and worked as a schoolboy here. And so he went to school in the American schools. And I think he went up until the fourth grade, so he knew all about the history of the United States. And he always wanted to visit the Grand Canyon, and he never got to see it, which, you know, we didn't take him, which I regret.

KL: He came as an eighteen-year-old and then he took elementary classes here?

SO: Yes, and he said the kids used to bring him an apple and say, "Here, Mr. Sumi, it's for you." Because he's an adult and in first grade or so. Yeah, so he knew all the history of the United States.

KL: Do you know about what year he came?

SO: [Addressing MS] When was he born, do you know?

MS: I don't know.

SO: I don't even know that.

MS: I thought that when he first got here, he was working as a domestic in a home.

SO: Right, schoolboy.

KL: Where did he come in to the United States? Did he talk about his trip?

MS: I never heard from my father, but my mother told me that she came in through Mexico. So I was thinking maybe... I don't know, that's probably illegal, I don't know.

SO: Yes, it was.

MS: Well, that's what she said, she came in through Mexico.

SO: Our mother was his second wife. His first wife died giving childbirth, and so he sent his baby back to Japan to be raised by his sister. And then when my mother turned eighteen, they sent her to be his wife.

KL: Their families were acquainted with each other?

SO: Yes, yes. Yeah, in fact, my mother's mother had to give her away because their father, her father ran away, was it to Manchuria?

MS: To Singapore.

SO: Singapore, so he ran away to Singapore. So the mother was left with these two kids that she couldn't take care of them, so she gave my mother away to my father's sister who was raising his child from the United States. And so my mother and his child grew up together.

KL: Wow. What took her father, what took your grandfather to Manchuria, do you know?

SO: We don't know. It was Singapore, Singapore. [Addressing MS] Do you know why he left?

MS: He just left his family and went there, and then got married again. And I know at that time they said he had a child, a boy. And then he came... I remember when he wrote to my mother when he got back to Japan, and he sent the picture of himself when he left, and I think he was probably in his thirties. And then he had another picture of himself as an old man when he returned to Japan and said that the people wouldn't talk to him, or they were upset.

SO: Right.

MS: And so I remember our mother sending him packages. And shortly after, he passed away. He probably was in his, oh, maybe eighties or nineties at that time when he came back to Japan.

<End Segment 1> - Copyright © 2012 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 2>

KL: Was your father's first marriage, did that happen in Japan?

MS: No, it was here.

SO: Yeah, in Terminal Island, right?

MS: I don't know if it was Terminal Island, but he got married here, and the child was born here. And the mother, his wife, died in childbirth.

KL: With that child?

MS: With that child.

KL: Do you think he came around 1910 or so? If you were born in '32...

SO: Gosh...

KL: That's okay, that's okay.

SO: It's okay?

MS: Our mother and father, they were fourteen years apart. And my mother and I were twenty-one years apart.

KL: [Inaudible] So, yeah, maybe she came around 1920 and he around (1910).

SO: Well, when it was illegal for the immigrants to come over, that's when she came. That's why she came up through Mexico, Tijuana. That's why she was so much younger than the Isseis, she was an Issei, but she was a young Issei.

KL: Did she talk about the journey from Tijuana? Did she come straight to Terminal Island?

SO: I don't know. It was, like, pretty hairy trying to get her across the border. I do know her saying something about that, but exactly how they did it, I don't know.

KL: She was with a group, do you think?

SO: No, she was by herself, right?

MS: I think so.

KL: Did she have a guide or anything?

SO: I don't know, my father must have arranged it somehow.

MS: You know, they didn't talk too much. They were so busy working, you know, just like when we went to Manzanar and after, they didn't say anything. So we just never talked to even our friends about our experiences there. Nobody seemed to talk.

SO: We just wanted to forget, because it was such a... we had good times as a child, but then I can remember some frightening things that went on in Manzanar. And it's something we just didn't want to talk about. And our parents never talked about it either. But our father always said, "Just be glad you're an American, you are an American." And then I said, "Well, then I hate Japan even more. I'm an American, and what they're putting us through." And he just said, "You're better off. Just be proud of that."

KL: Did he ever go back to Japan after he came to the United States?

SO: Fifty years later. Oh, well then, after our mother died seven years later, he remarried, a woman from Japan, from Tokyo. And so that's when he went back with her.

KL: Do you know what your parents' families, were they fishermen in Japan, or what was their work in Wakayama?

MS: I know our father's younger brother was the mayor of the town where they lived. But we never saw them communicate with any of the relatives in Japan.

KL: What was the town?

MS: What was...

KL: What was the name of the town?

MS: I guess Wakayama-ken is the prefecture.

SO: It's Ugui.

MS: Ugui.

SO: Ugui something.

MS: U-G-U-I. I think that's where most of Terminal (Islanders) comes from, (their) parents. I believe it's a little fishing community there.

<End Segment 2> - Copyright © 2012 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 3>

KL: So this may seem silly because I know the answers to some of these questions, but where were you both born?

MS: I was born at Terminal Island.

SO: In what? (1932)...

MS: (1932). You were born...

SO: In Long Beach, in a hospital.

KL: Very fancy.

SO: Yeah. She was born by midwife. [Laughs]

MS: Compared to me.

KL: What did your mom say about that? Did she talk about that?

MS: It was with a midwife when I was born in Terminal Island. I don't think they had hospitals there. It was a real neat place, Terminal Island. But it was sad to see how it was after we came back.

KL: What are your early memories of Terminal Island?

MS: Oh, kids running to the wharf and watching our father's fishing boat leave and return. We lived on Cannery Street, so it was very close to going to the wharf, right?

SO: Yes. And our father would babysit us, and he would take us out. And I was so scared. Remember when he'd take us out on his boat all day while he's fishing? And then we would come back, and he'd put us on the, he would just, "Here, here, (Mama)," and that's why I'm so scared of the water still today.

KL: He would just hand you over the side?

SO: Yeah, it was like, oh my god, we'd stand there like this. [Laughs] Yeah, I do remember him taking us all out on the boat, I think the four of us and then the baby. She stayed home.

KL: Where you scared of the boat, of the water?

SO: I don't think so, but I was scared when we came back, because I was afraid I'm going to fall backwards into the water. I'd stand there like this.

KL: Do you remember the name of the boat?

MS: Well, it was called Redeemer.

SO: That was the name of his boat?

MS: That was the name of a boat, wasn't it?

SO: His boat?

MS: His boat.

SO: Oh, okay.

KL: Your father's boat was the Redeemer?

MS: Uh-huh.

KL: Do you know why he chose that name?

MS: I don't know, but I remember the name.

KL: He had one boat?

SO: Yes.

MS: I'm just wondering if that was the first or second boat. It seems like there was a boat called Nancy S, and I'm just wondering if that was his boat.

SO: No, that was after we came back from Manzanar, after the war. They worked as migrant workers. We were in federal housing in trailers, we lived in trailers, and this is right after Manzanar. And then the trucks would come by, and then take them up to pick green beans or strawberries. And they did that for a while. And then their friend got this boat named Nancy S.

MS: Oh, okay, that's why.

SO: That's the name of that boat that he worked on. It was the seine, S-E-I-N-E, fishing boat, so they had a crew of about, well, I don't know, they would go into Mexico and up north for tuna.

MS: So Nancy S was the boat he was on after he came out of camp, but that was not his.

SO: No.

MS: He was just the crew.

KL: Before camp, when he had the Redeemer, how far would he go on those fishing trips?

SO: We don't know. He used to take us, so we couldn't have gone that far.

KL: Would you go for a day or a week?

SO: No, we would not go for a week, we would go for a day. He was just babysitting us.

MS: He'd go fishing in Mexico. That's why the FBI was so interested in the fishermen, because they were going out of the country to fish.

KL: Yeah, I was amazed the first time someone told me how far their father went on those fishing trips. I didn't realize.

MS: Then our mother worked in the cannery.

KL: What are your memories of that, of her work there, her hours?

SO: Of her smelling like fish. That's what I remember. And I had to take care of our little sister while our parents went to work.

MS: And it seems like the whole community was like a family, you know. They'd be taking care of the kids, too, (even if it) weren't their own. I mean, it just felt like even with your parents working, you just felt like there was always the extended family. Everybody seemed like they were there to pitch in and help. So that was a neat feeling. That's the only kind of feeling we knew. And then we'd go to Manzanar, and it's the same thing. Because, you know, we're the only people there, the race.

<End Segment 3> - Copyright © 2012 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 4>

KL: Who, I want to... you mentioned your siblings a couple times. Tell me all the kids in your family kind of in order.

MS: Okay, I'm the oldest, and then Toshi, T-O-S-H-I, she was born in '34. Then when were you born?

SO: I was born in 1936, and then Shizuo, our brother...

MS: S-H-I-Z-U-O.

SO: ...was born in '37.

KL: You guys are close.

SO: Oh, yeah. And then Midori.

MS: She was born in...

SO: '41.

MS: '41.

SO: '41.

KL: Did you have any relatives in Terminal Island, any cousins or anything?

SO: No. Our father's brothers were... what were they, farmers? So they did not live on Terminal Island.

MS: Not at Terminal Island.

KL: But he had brothers in California?

SO: Yes, two. Two brothers.

MS: A farmer in Gardena and then an older brother in L.A. who was into flowers, right?

SO: Flowers, I think so.

MS: On Wall Street.

KL: Did you see much of him growing up?

SO: No.

KL: Did you go into Los Angeles?

MS: I remember going to, he owned quite a few buildings on this block, and there was a hotel, his hotel, and then right next to it, a cafe. So we got to go to the hotel and run around in the corridors and things like that. He was very wealthy.

KL: What was the hotel's name?

MS: Can't remember the hotel's name, but the cafe was called Rose Cafe, which was right next to it, which was his wife's name.

KL: They were both on Wall Street?

MS: I don't know if it was on Wall Street. I thought it was, but very close if it wasn't. And then (he had) a lot of flower... (they) wouldn't be shops. I guess maybe wholesale flowers (and buildings) all lined up, flower buildings, I should say, right across the street from his hotel and cafe and all that. So he had quite a few of those.

KL: Did he live in the hotel?

MS: I thought he did.

SO: I think he did, yeah. I think so.

KL: Did those brothers follow your father over, or were they here before he came?

MS: We're not too familiar with them or the cousins in that side of the family because we never got to see 'em. I think they were probably, our father was the youngest of the three of them, and I think at that time they were estranged. So maybe that's why we didn't see our cousins until we got older.

KL: Well, it sounds like your folks were busy, too, with five kids and working in the cannery.

SO: With five kids, yes.

KL: And you both went to school in Terminal Island.

SO: I think I went to kindergarten. I think that's my kindergarten class. Okay, so my brother Shizuo and Midori did not to go school in Terminal Island.

KL: There's another little girl in this picture that you're really close to. Do you remember the other kids in your kindergarten?

SO: No, I don't.

KL: She looks like a friend.

SO: I don't know, I look happy. [Laughs]

KL: Yeah, you do. Were you in the same school? Was kindergarten in the elementary school?

MS: I don't remember school on Terminal Island.

SO: I don't either.

MS: I remember going to Compton school, and that was when the war started, we vacated Terminal Island. I was in the fourth grade.

<End Segment 4> - Copyright © 2012 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 5>

KL: What was your house in Terminal Island like?

SO: It was a nice house. I think we were kind of well-off, because I remember a telephone and no one else had a telephone. I would push the chair up to the phone and I would dial the operator, and I'd say, "What time is it?" Because there was no one else to call. So I think we were pretty well-off.

KL: Did you get nice responses from the operator?

SO: No, she'd tell me the time. I was so happy.

MS: And we had a piano.

SO: She played the piano and took dance lessons and all that.

KL: What kind of dance?

SO: Japanese dance, odori. Odori?

MS: What?

SO: You did Japanese dance, right?

MS: Yeah, I did.

SO: You did.

KL: Where were your lessons?

MS: I don't recall. I remember dancing in Manzanar, too, because I have a picture on stage there.

SO: You didn't bring it.

KL: We're gonna be in touch. Did you perform in Terminal Island?

MS: No. I wasn't that kind of dancer, not at all.

KL: There were no odori performances?

SO: Wait a minute. I remember going to some talent shows and sitting there watching the kids dancing, you know Diane Endo?

MS: Uh-huh.

SO: Remember she was like the Shirley Temple and she did tap dance and all that? Anyhow, I thought we went to some shows, I remember.

KL: Where were they? Was there a community hall or church building?

MS: There was one Baptist church at Terminal Island that seems like we went there a lot.

SO: We belonged to the Baptist church.

MS: But aside from that, I don't recall any auditoriums or things like that. I really have fond memories of Terminal Island.

KL: What was the name of your church?

MS: It was... was it just Baptist church? I know it was a Baptist church.

SO: I don't recall.

MS: So if you wanted to go to church, I guess that's the place to go. There was just one. I don't know if there were other religions like Buddhist. I don't know that.

SO: But our mother was a Baptist, and our father was a Buddhist, and so that's why we went to the Baptist church. And in Manzanar I remember going to... I had to cross the firebreaks to go to church every Sunday, and we had to learn a verse and do our little workbooks every Sunday. I'd faithfully go to church.

MS: I do remember that.

KL: Did your whole family go?

SO: No, I remember walking by myself, and freezing. I had to cross the firebreaks. And while I was there at your center, the way... we lived in Block 8, and I'm saying... no, it wasn't in Manzanar, it was at the Los Angeles Japanese museum. The host there showed me, he goes, "If you went to church," he showed me where the church was and where we lived, and I had to cross the firebreaks to go to church. But I don't remember anyone else going with me. [Laughs]

MS: I don't remember going to church in Manzanar.

SO: You don't?

MS: But crossing, talking about the firebreaks, that was brutal in the summertime. I got --

SO: And the winter, too.

MS: -- athlete's feet so bad that I had, on the bottom of my foot, there was like this black and blue kind of thing sticking out. Oh, it was terrible. It just burned through our tennis shoes.

KL: When you were going to church in Terminal Island, did you go for, were you part of a youth group or anything?

MS: I don't remember that.

SO: I don't think so. I was five, so I just used to go to Sunday school.

MS: Five?

SO: We just used to go to Sunday school.

KL: You said your house had a telephone and a piano. Did you share, did you sisters share a room?

MS: Seems like it was a good-sized house, right? Maybe three bedrooms.

SO: I think it had an upstairs because I remember looking out the window and waiting for our parents to come home or something. I do remember being way up there someplace looking down.

MS: Maybe it was an attic.

SO: Maybe that's it.

MS: I don't think we had rooms upstairs.

SO: Okay, it was an attic with a window. [Laughs] And I'd spend a lot of time up there just watching. I do remember that.

KL: Do you remember the yard at all, or did you have a garden?

SO: I don't know.

MS: I just remember I had one toy, and it was a large wagon with the wooden slats on the sides. And to this day I love wagons. In fact, I went and, not too long ago, bought a little red wagon I saw at Walgreens. But that's about the only thing I remember.

KL: Did you pull Sachi around in it?

MS: Pardon me?

KL: Did you pull Sachi around in it?

MS: Oh, I'm sure I did.

SO: I don't recall.

MS: Lot of kids to pull around.

KL: Yeah, you'd be popular.

SO: Yeah.

KL: Did you all play together a lot, you and your siblings?

SO: I don't think so.

MS: I don't remember that. It just seems like you just try to fill out a lot of the things, maybe because... you know, in Manzanar, when we were there, I know I didn't think about things like what happened at Terminal Island. And with all your friends around, we just never stood around and talked like you might when you're young.

<End Segment 5> - Copyright © 2012 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 6>

KL: Did you ever go to work with your mother at Terminal Island? Did you see where she worked?

SO: Did she work in Terminal Island?

MS: Huh?

SO: I just wondered --

MS: Terminal Island, the cannery.

SO: Oh, she did? Yeah, we have a picture of that.

MS: No, we didn't go there. All I remember is when I was graduating from high school, I was in Long Beach, and the counselor told me -- probably because of the prejudice -- she told me to go get a job at the cannery. [Laughs] You know, I said, "I don't want to work in a cannery," but I kind of remembered that. And instead, I went to L.A. and got a job in an office.

KL: I just have one more question about Terminal Island and then I want to move forward. But would your dad be gone quite often on trips to Mexico?

MS: Yes, he was, because he'd come back, and he can tell (that) the kids (had grown). Yeah, he would mention how each one has grown, like that.

KL: Would he be gone for two months at a time?

SO: I don't remember.

MS: It seems like a long time.

KL: When you're a kid, yeah, especially.

MS: I can't remember how long.

KL: [Addressing others in the room] Did you guys have any questions about Terminal Island?

AL: What was the name of the cannery that your mother worked for?

SO: Van Kamp, I think.

AL: And could you talk a little bit, I mean, did she ever talk about, like, working conditions or how they were treated in the canneries?

SO: No. She just... they gossiped a lot, the women, and so she just said for us to, we always had to be on good behavior, because we don't want to bring shame to your family. Bunch of rowdy kids, we were really good. Good, good kids, because we didn't want to embarrass our parents.

AL: Just one more question. What were the names of your uncles who were in L.A.?

SO: (Kanjiro), was that his name? (Kanjiro)?

MS: I think so.

SO: It seems like it was K-A-N-J-I.

AL: Last name Sumi?

SO: Yes.

AL: And is that the one on Wall Street?

SO: Yes, on Wall Street, (Kanjiro).

AL: So that was (Kanjiro) and Rose Sumi? And the other one?

SO: What's the uncle's name that was...

MS: I know it starts with a T.

AL: We can look it up, also. Were they in Manzanar?

SO: No.

AL: What camps were they in?

SO: I don't know. Do you? Do you even know if they went to camp?

MS: I don't know that. I didn't see them at Manzanar.

SO: No, we had no one except the five... just us, without our father.

<End Segment 6> - Copyright © 2012 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 7>

KL: Tell me your memories of the attack on Pearl Harbor.

MS: I remember the sirens, like I told you, which was pretty scary. You know, the kind of sirens you hear...

SO: Like an air raid.

MS: Yeah, that's it, air raid, like those sirens. To me, it was very scary.

KL: Did they go off on December 7th?

MS: I don't remember that day.

SO: I don't remember anything about when Pearl Harbor was bombed. I don't remember.

MS: I remember they used to have a lot of blackouts, you know, and we'd be outside in the evenings, and then the air raid sirens would go off. It was really scary.

KL: What do you remember about leaving Terminal Island?

MS: Leaving Terminal Island? Well, we had to leave and leave everything. We didn't have a car. We have five kids and our mother was very young, in her twenties. And we had no place to go. So I think we got a ride from someone that was going to Compton where they heard there was an abandoned Japanese schoolhouse, so we went there. Tell them about the...

KL: Do you know who that person was?

SO: That took us?

KL: Who drove you?

SO: I don't recall. I don't know how we got there, but I do remember when we got there, Mama put a blanket on the floor, and it was a big building, just one building. This is our family, the next family had their little blanket or bedspread out there, that was their family. The whole building, I think, had all these families with their little blankets or bedspreads out, and that's where we stayed. But we did go to school. I have to tell you about my first day of school.

KL: I want to hear, but let me back up a little bit. You had very, you told me before the cameras were rolling that you had very little time to leave Terminal Island.

MS: Forty-eight hours. So we left everything, we couldn't carry much except the little kids. That was how it was when we went to Manzanar, too. And they said we could take what you could carry. But we couldn't carry anything. So that was sad. I could imagine what our mother went through. So we had a blanket that was put on the floor for our family. And there wasn't much in the abandoned building, you know, it was just the building. But I was gonna say, it would have been better for us if they would have just taken us to Manzanar straight from Terminal Island.

SO: But it wasn't ready. It wasn't ready, they were building it still.

MS: Yeah, because of the fact that we didn't have to go to an in-between place, you know, where we had no place to go. And we were there long enough to even have to enroll in school. I mean, that was terrible.

SO: That was frightening, to be teased and to be hated so much to have to go to this all-white school. Can I tell you about my, what I remember?

KL: Please do.

SO: I remember the first day of school, I guess I'm in kindergarten or first grade, I'm not sure, and I was so scared I was crying -- not crying, I was screaming. Just screaming. And so the teacher tried to quiet me down, she goes, "Okay, we're going to play band now," and so she brought out all the instruments and started playing music. And I'm screaming through all this, nonstop. So then they decided to take me to my sister Toshi's classroom, and I'm screaming in there, and she can't get me to be quiet. And so then they took me to her class [indicates MS] and then she just said, "Shut up," because I was crying so hard.

KL: Did that work?

SO: Yes. I sat in the corner until we went home, you know, 'til school was out. But in her classroom, I do remember that.

KL: What was the school that you went to? Do you remember its name?

MS: Where, in Compton? The one I went to was... well, I guess it was a grammar school, so McKinley.

SO: Yeah, McKinley.

MS: Elementary school.

SO: Yeah, we walked there, I remember.

KL: Did your mom go with you on that first day, do you remember the trip to school?

SO: No, no. That's what was so frightening.

KL: What about, were there any other children in the building, in the former Japanese language school with you?

MS: There were, right? There were a bunch of kids, weren't there?

SO: Oh, yeah.

MS: The floor was...

SO: Covered with blankets.

MS: Blanket for each family.

SO: And I don't know how we ate or what we ate, I don't recall, or using the bathroom, I don't recall.

MS: I don't remember any of that either.

KL: You were little.

SO: We just remember that blanket, that was our home.

KL: Do you have any idea how your mom found out that that building was the place to go, or how she chose Compton?

SO: I think some of the other families from Terminal Island also went there, too, because I remember my friend, I remember her being in that same building.

KL: Do you know the name of that Japanese language school?

SO: No, it was just called Japanese language school. [Laughs] I think that's what it was called.

KL: Do you know what street it was on, or neighborhood or anything?

MS: No, I don't know the... we're not very observant.

KL: There was a lot going on.

SO: There was. But it felt safe there because we were among our own, you know, in our little building, to get away from all that teasing.

KL: Did the other kids go to McKinley with you?

SO: Yes, there was a bunch of, a group of us kids walking to that school, I remember. Do you?

MS: I don't remember too much, but a bunch of us all walked together. But you know, like she said, I don't even recall what we ate or how we ate, or things like that, showering or washing up or whatever.

SO: Because we were there for quite a while, it seems like, according to her picture, her school picture there.

KL: Yeah, you left in December and didn't go into Manzanar until April.

SO: That's when it was ready, right?

KL: Early spring.

SO: I remember going to Manzanar and our block did not have a restroom built in, so we had to go running, I remember running really far just to use the bathroom.

MS: Yeah. That was awful.

<End Segment 7> - Copyright © 2012 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 8>

KL: Back to Compton before Manzanar, you were scared at school. Do you remember the walk to school or anything else about that first day, were you scared before you...

MS: In Compton?

KL: Yeah. When you started at that school, what were your feelings the morning of your first day or when you were waiting to go?

SO: Were you scared when you went to school that first day?

MS: I don't think so. I think it was just, you know, part of going to school. You have to go to school, so we just went. There was nothing to think about. It was just something that was required of you, so you just did it.

KL: Do you remember the walk at all before you went?

SO: No. I remember walking, though. I just think that we were teased so much, so where would I have gotten that?

KL: In the school?

SO: Well, I don't know. That's why I was so scared, I'm sure. Did I get teased in Terminal Island? There was so much hatred. But all I can remember is, "You dirty Jap." And I'm thinking to myself, "I'm not dirty," because we bathed every day. I didn't quite understand it. But I don't know where I was teased so much that I would be afraid. Was it going to school? I don't know.

KL: Did it come from adults or from children?

SO: Both. Children were mean, too. Yeah, the kids were... yes, yes.

KL: What was the teacher's response to the teasing?

SO: I don't think it happened right in the classroom. I think it was going to and from school. I don't recall... I don't know.

KL: Do you remember teasing?

MS: I don't remember. I don't remember that. But a lot, a lot after Manzanar, went through a lot of hate.

KL: You said you feel for your mother in that situation. What do you remember about your mother's, your mother's behavior when you were in Compton? How did she cope?

MS: Well, as usual, just working hard to keep the kids safe and all that kind of thing. It was more what she was doing, we just never sat down and talked about the situation we were in. I mean not ever. Not even after we came out of camp. They just went on to do what they were doing before we were interrupted. And so for myself, I just put like two and two together as I got older, because we didn't talk to friends about anything, our parents, they never said anything. It just...

KL: Did she seem the same to you in Compton as she seemed in Terminal Island, or were there differences?

MS: I think so. She was the same. Do you think that?

SO: She didn't show it. Because with our father being gone, too, she had to take care of all of us. So she didn't show the fear, she just tried to keep us calm. But I do remember at Compton, we did play outdoors a lot, because there was no room to play inside the building, because we had all these blankets all over the place. And so we stayed outdoors a lot until it was time to go to bed, I guess. I'm not sure.

<End Segment 8> - Copyright © 2012 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 9>

KL: We haven't talked about your father's arrest yet, but I would like to hear about that, too. I'm sorry it's a hard subject, but what are your memories of what happened to your father after the attack on Pearl Harbor?

SO: I remember one day my mother said -- it was around dinnertime and she goes, "I wonder where Papa is because he's not home. He should be home." And we waited a little while longer, and then she, I can see the worry in her face, and so I left to go run to the wharf. And as I got there, there were buses all lined up like this, and they were getting ready to leave. The motor was running and as I'm running along the buses there, a man stood up and he waved to me like this, and that was my father. So I went home and I told Mom, I said, "I just saw Papa on the bus, and they took him away." And then I don't remember anything else. What do you remember?

MS: I heard that the... well, he was taken to the federal prison in Terminal Island, and then I heard that they were gonna move the men on a train to Bismarck, North Dakota. So I remember not going to school, and went to see if I could find the train or the path of the train where it might be going. And it did pass by me, but I didn't see him. And so I never got to say goodbye or anything. It seems like, before that, I came home... I don't know, I thought I saw the FBI taking him away to the prison.

KL: You recall the FBI coming to your home?

MS: Oh, yes.

SO: All the time.

MS: Yeah, because they were trashing...

SO: I don't know what they were looking for. But we read in an article they were looking for shortwave radios and cameras and maybe swords, I'm not sure.

MS: I remember especially this one room, do you remember that? Where a lot of the things like that would be in? I remember them going through.

KL: Things like what?

SO: Papers, wasn't it?

MS: Radios.

SO: We had radios in the house?

MS: I think they were looking for shortwave radios, because the fishermen, because he was a fisherman, they were going through everything. They didn't find anything.

KL: And they came several times, you said?

MS: I think so.

KL: Did your folks have things, special things from Japan, keepsakes?

MS: Oh, I'm sure they did, right?

SO: Well then I think more so because my mother came in, our mother came in illegally, and maybe she didn't have the papers, I don't know. I don't know what the heck they're looking for.

MS: She had a green card.

SO: Later, right?

MS: Yeah. Well, I think those cards, it seems like she used to go to L.A., and they used to just get it for her.

SO: I think you just renew it every year, the green card.

MS: Maybe that was illegal, too. You know, in those days, it seems like if you wanted a, they wanted a driver's license or something, they'd go to L.A. and then they'd get a driver's license. So maybe it was just the same kind of thing. That's not tolerated like right now.

KL: You guys were at home when the FBI would...

MS: Were you home?

SO: Yeah, but I ran out of the house 'cause I was so scared.

MS: That was really scary, because, you know, we lived such a sheltered life. We didn't even see other kinds of people living on Terminal Island, that other children might experience going to school, and they get to go to school with all different kinds of (people), we were just us, and just like Manzanar. Until we came out of Manzanar, and it was scary.

SO: But I do remember asking my father later about when he was taken on the bus. He was saying when he came back to shore, the FBI was waiting right there. So he had to leave everything, his catch of the fish, and they just escorted them onto the bus.

KL: Did he fish with a crew?

SO: I don't know. Do you remember?

MS: Yeah.

SO: Oh, okay. But he skippered the boat.

KL: How did you find your father again?

SO: I don't know.

MS: How did we what?

KL: How did you reconnect with your father?

MS: Oh, he came to camp shortly before we left.

SO: No, but how, you know like the letters we're sending him? I don't know. I don't remember.

KL: So he was arrested, and he went to Bismarck, and you went to Compton. How did your parents find each other to write to each other or find out... do you remember finding out that he was in Bismarck?

SO: Do you remember when we found out where he was? Because we didn't know where he went.

MS: But did we write to him?

SO: Yeah, but how did we find out? I don't know.

KL: Where did you think he went?

SO: We don't know. [Laughs] Just that the FBI took him, so wherever. We had no idea.

MS: I think because there were other people at Manzanar from Terminal Island, we probably heard it through them that, "Oh, guess what? They're at Bismarck, North Dakota," and that's where he was.

SO: It was a federal penitentiary. It think it was called Fort Lincoln, if I'm not mistaken, the name of the penitentiary.

KL: So when you were still in Compton, for months you didn't know where your father was?

SO: No. Right? Didn't know.

MS: Until he came to Manzanar in '44, I think. Because I found the...

SO: Oh, here.

MS: ...driver's license mailed to Manzanar from Independence, and we thought, when we found that, she said, "Oh, what's he driving?

SO: I said, "What did he drive? What did he need a license for?"

KL: "Temporary chauffeur's license."

MS: Isn't that neat?

KL: Wow. Do you think your parents had any idea that there would be a war between Japan and the United States? Did they talk with their families in Japan or pick up radio broadcasts, or do you think they were stunned by the attack on Pearl Harbor?

SO: Oh, yeah. Because --

MS: Oh, yeah, they were. They didn't really communicate with their relatives in Japan.

SO: But they came, our father came because he knew it was a better life here in the United States, and so that's why he came. And he said it was far better than the life in Japan, it was far better here, and he would never go back home. So he had no desire to go back.

MS: Yeah, it was a big shock to them, too.

<End Segment 9> - Copyright © 2012 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 10>

KL: -- back with tape two of a continuing interview with the Sumi sisters. And we were talking a little bit in the break about how you said your mother kept you calm when you were in Compton, and I wondered how. What did she do or what did she say that helped?

SO: She said, "Shikata ga nai," which means, "it can't be helped." I think that was like the battle cry of the Isseis. So it's something that you're just going through, but it can't be helped.

MS: So you just make the best of everything. But she didn't talk that much, say that much about anything, and maybe that was why we were kept out of this whole thing. Maybe in a way it's good and maybe not, because we didn't know. But I think it would keep you calm not knowing everything. Or if she was constantly complaining about this or that, I would think it would affect the children. So I think it's a lack of talking too much (about things), even at Manzanar and after.

KL: Did you notice that the other parents in that Japanese language school building, did they have a similar approach to your mom?

SO: They were much, much older than she was. Our mother was more modern. So I don't...

MS: You know, I hate to say this, but this is my observation at Manzanar, too. That because she was younger, like the kids that was in the same grade as me were the same age, their parents were like ten or, at least ten or fifteen years, or even twenty years older than she was. I thought that they, the parents or the mothers picked on her, like a kid. And I know that happened at Manzanar, and I think that was the reason why we moved from Block 9. We got there, and we lived in Block 9, and we went to Block 8. And there weren't as many people from Terminal Island there, I'm not sure, but that's my observation.

SO: We were also, as children, I think we were always trying to comfort her, since our father was gone, we're trying to make her... I know I was always hugging her. So just trying to... I think maybe we were trying to keep her calm, too, by not getting into trouble, and trying to be helpful. I remember trying to comfort her a lot and hugging her a lot.

MS: It sounds like a close relationship.

SO: We only had each other, I think. Because like she said, the women didn't like her. She was pretty, too, our mother. And so pretty and young, I think, right?

KL: What did she look like?

MS: Oh, she was beautiful.

SO: We'll show you the picture. And the picture you have at Manzanar, at the center, she's right there. She's right, she looks really pretty, I had forgotten what she looked like. But to see her in that picture just made me cry.

AL: Can I ask, you say other people teased her. What kind of things were they saying or doing to her specifically?

MS: I don't know exactly, but that's the feeling that I got.

SO: They would not include her, because being such a close-knit family, they would not include her in a lot of things. More so with our father being gone. They didn't want to include her because she was pretty, you know.

MS: I think that was the main thing, she was young and pretty. And that's the feeling that I got.

SO: Me too, me too.

KL: Did you feel included by other families, or did some of that attitude filter to you?

SO: I think we felt like that with the older kids, because they used to take care of us, "Oh, we remember the Sumi family. We used to babysit you." You know, like the teenagers. So we were, I think they helped our mother, but I don't recall being close to any Isseis. I don't recall.

MS: I tell you one thing, she died when she was forty-nine from stomach cancer. I felt like I lost a best friend, older sister, and our mother. Because she was such a great person. Being the oldest, I felt like that.

SO: She had to help her a lot. She was like, like when we went to Manzanar, too, I mean, she had to help my mother.

MS: I had to stuff those mattresses, because I was the oldest.

SO: Yeah. And then they'd leave the rest of us kids with our little screaming baby sister, and I do remember that. Cold, it was at night when we got to Manzanar. They had to go and take care of the mattresses.

KL: Did your folks learn English?

SO: Like I said, our father went to school here, so if he didn't understand something that... well, we spoke Japanese in the house. And if you asked him something, he'll say, "How do you spell it?" And then you'd spell it, and then he would know the meaning of it, and then he could respond. We always spoke Japanese at home.

KL: What about your mom? Did she always just speak Japanese?

SO: Uh-huh.

MS: If they spoke English, it was a broken English.

SO: Broken. We'd throw some Japanese words in there, and English, and it was like a slang.

MS: But we spoke English, so I think... well, I know they understood more English than they could speak it, being here for so long. But they felt more comfortable speaking Japanese. So that's how they talked with us. So our Japanese became very bad. I mean, it was more... you know, with English mixed in, Japanese, it wasn't the right way of speaking, I'm sure. Because when I was working, this one guy, I thought I'd impress him with my Japanese, a man from Japan. And he looked at me and he said, "You sound like you're speaking Chinese." [Laughs]

KL: That was the end of that, huh?

MS: Yeah. I wasn't good as I thought I was.

SO: Well, I know that ever since I was a little girl with the war and all that, I would never speak Japanese in public, never. Even through high school, junior high, never. You know how the group of girls, we used to get together and they'd be rattling off in Japanese, I would not take part. If they spoke to me, I'd respond in English, because I found that very rude, and also I didn't want to be known as I'm Japanese either. So I never did.

MS: I think you would find that with the people from Terminal Island, speaking more Japanese than English.

SO: Yes.

MS: Even with the Niseis at that time.

SO: They still do, I think. I wouldn't eat Japanese food, nothing Japanese. I wouldn't speak it, I wouldn't eat the food.

<End Segment 10> - Copyright © 2012 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 11>

KL: How did you learn, when you were back in Compton, how did you learn that you would have to leave again to go to Manzanar?

MS: I don't think we learned that, we just, "Well, it's time to go."

SO: Took us to the train station. I think they took us to the train -- didn't we go to Manzanar on the train with the shades pulled down on the train? I don't know. Anyhow, seems like it took forever because the train was going forward and backward all the time.

MS: We just went with the flow of people.

SO: Yeah.

MS: So it was easy.

KL: So one morning you just woke up --

SO: Yeah, "It's time to go. Manzanar's ready."

MS: It wasn't, you know, you had to get ready for anything.

SO: You just picked up your blanket.

MS: Just pick up the kids and go, that's it.

KL: Do you recall gathering at the train station?

SO: I remember when we got off, when we got to Manzanar it's dark, our mother's carrying our baby sister, and then she's got two kids on either side of her, hanging in. That's how we traveled. That was very frightening.

KL: You don't recall seeing anything of where you were going, the trip on the train?

SO: I don't know. I mean, just from the movies I've seen, it seems to me like the shades were drawn in the train. I don't know if we went through that, but I don't recall seeing anything or looking out a window or anything, do you?

MS: It just seems like we got there late at night. I remember getting there, but I don't know how we got there.

KL: Did you take a bus?

MS: I thought it was a train.

SO: I think it was a train. Because it kept going forward and then backwards and then we'd move up a little and go back again. Somehow, I don't know what the train was doing, but...

MS: We got there late at night, real late, like midnight.

KL: Were there people from the army on the train? Military police?

SO: I don't think so, recall. I don't think so.

KL: Did you travel with people from the Japanese language school building on the train?

SO: Yes. Well, my one friend, I remember her being at Compton and then at Manzanar also. I think how we kept busy on the train, I remember singing a lot of hymns, church. But it was a long ride.

KL: Many people came to the depot at Lone Pine, and from there to the bus to Manzanar, to the camp. So do you recall at all getting from the train to the...

SO: No. Just hang on to your sister.

KL: What happened when you got to the camp? Were there other people around?

MS: I just remember going into this building and stuffing the mattresses with hay.

SO: I think... weren't they in line and then you got assigned your...

MS: And then going to our home, barrack, and I remember there were no steps. So it was kind of hard to go from the ground to, like, up here, to climb into the building. That's what I remember. And then there was a stove, what do you call that?

SO: Potbelly stove?

MS: Yeah, something like that. You get up in the morning and you're full of dust, your whole (body), if you're looking up, your face was full of dust.

KL: You and your mom went and stuffed the mattresses?

MS: I remember going myself.

SO: No, I remember our mother going and our mother saying, "Come on, Miho, let's go." Then left us by ourselves.

KL: Were you in the barrack?

SO: Yes.

KL: And that was the night that you arrived?

SO: Yes. I do remember that.

KL: Who else was in your apartment? Was there anyone else in there or just your family?

MS: Just us, the six of us.

KL: And you said there was a stove and no steps. What else do you remember about that?

MS: And it was empty.

SO: Empty. There was nothing else in there.

MS: Well, after we got there, the mattresses...

SO: They must have had cots or something, because the mattresses went on the cots, right?

MS: That's all I...

SO: Metal cots, I think I remember, with the spring.

MS: Great big scorpions all over.

KL: Do you recall them?

MS: Oh, yeah. That was scary. Big ones. [Laughs]

KL: Had you seen anything like that before?

MS: No, never.

KL: Did you know they would be there?

MS: Oh, no. Well, we didn't research on it. [Laughs]

KL: You didn't run a Google search?

SO: Oh, gee, that's an idea. [Laughs]

KL: Where were the scorpions?

MS: They would be under the barracks, and sometimes they'd come up to the rooms. But the worst part of it, when we got to Manzanar, was not having the restrooms and the laundry rooms were not completed. So I remember running, I mean, was it across the firebreaks?

SO: I don't know, to another block.

MS: Block, just to go.

SO: Yeah.

MS: Well, that was terrible.

<End Segment 11> - Copyright © 2012 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 12>

SO: I remember seeing the men still building, the carpenters and construction workers.

KL: Did they talk to you at all, or did you talk to them, those construction workers?

SO: No, but we were happy, we were free. We were among ourselves, and the majority were Japanese Americans. So it just felt safe.

KL: Especially after that school.

SO: Right, yes. And Terminal Island. It just felt like a place to run around, it just felt safe. And then to see people of your kind, Japanese Americans, it was nice.

MS: I'm sorry, I didn't see any workers. Did you?

SO: Yes, I remember them building still, pounding away.

MS: So it was a while.

SO: Yes. Like we were among the first to go to Manzanar. I think the people that lived in L.A., they still had, I don't think they had to leave their homes like we did. I think it was only --

KL: Terminal Island was definitely very different.

SO: Right, yeah. I don't know about the people in L.A. Oh, yeah, they went to Santa Anita, to the racetrack, yes, and lived in the horse stalls, like my husband and his family.

KL: Oh, he did?

SO: Yeah. Pomona and Santa Anita.

AL: Can I ask you another question? I know we're moving forward into Manzanar, but you said you remember the Terminal Island Baptist Church. Some people have recalled when they were moved or moving, that different people came forward and helped them or took them to a place. Do you recall when you were going to Manzanar or were leaving the island, any involvement of people who were not of Japanese ancestry? Did anybody from your church come and help, or anybody else?

SO: Was Miss Smith in Terminal Island? Miss Smith.

MS: Who's Miss Smith?

SO: She was a church lady.

MS: I didn't see anybody.

SO: I don't recall.

AL: Did anybody help you in Compton?

SO: I think who helped Mama, did you hear of Father Lavery or...

MS: Oh, yeah, there was a Catholic priest from L.A. called Father Lavery.

AL: Hugh Lavery.

SO: Oh, really? I think I heard about him after the war. I don't know if our parents were trying to get in contact with him, but that name, I do remember. And how he helped them, I don't know. Do you?

MS: They said that he had helped take some of the people's things.

SO: Belongings.

MS: And kept it for them. But as I recall, we just left everything, (including our father's fishing) boat.

SO: Yeah, and I don't remember carrying anything either. I just remember just holding on to our sister.

MS: I don't remember anybody else.

AL: Okay, thank you.

MS: We weren't very popular at that time. [Laughs]

KL: You said you weren't?

SO: No, that people didn't come to help you, you know, they just wanted you out.

KL: You mentioned scorpions at Manzanar. Was there anything, what else do you remember being new? Do you remember other animals there that were a surprise, or that you worried about?

MS: I just remember big scorpions.

SO: I just remember the snow. It was the first time we saw snow.

KL: What did you think of that?

SO: Thought it was neat.

MS: I thought it was nice because the older kids, they built a big...

SO: Slide.

MS: Slide.

KL: Out of snow?

MS: Yeah. So that was a lot of fun.

KL: Was that right after you arrived?

SO: No. [Laughs] We had nothing. We used to play a lot of Kick the Can and tag and marbles.

KL: Who were your neighbors in your building or across the way, do you remember?

SO: Uh-uh.

MS: I don't remember.

<End Segment 12> - Copyright © 2012 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 13>

KL: When did you leave, when did you leave Block 9?

SO: Shortly after we got there. It seems like someone got the measles, I don't know if it was her, and then she had to go to the infirmary where they were quarantined. And it seems like... now, I don't remember an adult watching us, but our mother had to go to the infirmary to look after her. And then the next sister got sick, and she ended up in the infirmary also. And I remember, like, "I hope I get the measles so then I get to go with Mama," to be with Mama. But I remember being alone, sleeping alone with whoever was not in the infirmary, but our mother was gone. And I don't recall anyone coming to help us, do you? You got the measles.

MS: I don't remember.

SO: Well, I do remember that.

KL: Was that in the spring of 1942? It was right after you arrived?

SO: It was shortly after we arrived, yes.

MS: I think we were happier in, at Block 8.

SO: Oh, yeah, we were.

MS: And maybe it was because our mother was happier. So I remember that.

KL: Did you go and visit in the infirmary? Do you remember anything --

SO: No, you couldn't go. It was quarantined, yes.

KL: Was it far away?

SO: I don't remember. But I do remember being frightened that there was no one to look after us, and our mother had to be with whoever was sick. I was scared at night when we were sleeping alone. I do remember that.

KL: Do you know your address in Block 9, what building number you were in?

SO: No, but I do have... I thought the printout that the ranger gave me...

KL: Yeah, we can look it up, too.

SO: I thought she told me, "Okay, you lived on such and such barrack number and the unit.

KL: And then you moved that summer?

SO: To Block 8?

MS: We didn't stay at Block 9 too long. Well, moving was no problem because all we had to do...

SO: Pick up the blanket? [Laughs]

MS: Right? No mattress there. [Laughs] And the kids again.

KL: Do you remember the people in Block 8 that you met?

SO: Uh-uh, I don't remember.

MS: But I know that it was better for us.

KL: How was it better?

MS: I think we were happier. I don't know why, because we didn't stay at Block 9 too long.

SO: I think the people were friendlier to my mother.

MS: That's probably it.

SO: Yeah, I think.

KL: And you said she and your father wrote letters to each other while she was in Manzanar?

SO: Well, we don't know, but this picture we have is like, she told me that we sent it to him for Valentine's Day, and that's why it's cut out in the shape of a heart. But I don't recall writing, do you? Did we write to him?

MS: I don't recall that.

SO: But we must have sent that picture to him.

MS: I found a small book like this that's that thick, of my father's, and it's all in Japanese. So I don't know if it was his diary or what, but I would think that it was, had something to do with North Dakota.

KL: He wrote it?

MS: He wrote it, yeah.

SO: Do you have it?

MS: Oh, we can't read Japanese.

SO: Do you have it?

MS: I don't know what it was about.

SO: Do you have it?

MS: Yeah.

SO: Oh, okay.

KL: Yeah, that'd be interesting to find a friend or a translator to see.

MS: Yeah, it would be.

SO: But my father used to write letters for his friends back in Japan. I don't know if it's because they could not write, but he was very educated in English and Japanese, so he was always writing.

MS: He was a good writer, that's why people would come to him and ask him to write letters and things like that.

KL: Did he keep a journal when you were children?

MS: Well, this journal I found, I don't know when it was written, but there's quite a bit in there. So I just don't know what's in there.

AL: We might be able to assist with getting it translated if you ever want to.

SO: Really?

AL: It's difficult to do translations from older Japanese because a lot of modern Japanese speakers can't read the characters, but we do have volunteers who assisted us. So we can't promise, but if it's something that you want to do, we might be able to assist or at least try. Sometimes they can't translate it verbatim but they can give you a gist of what it's talking about it.

MS: That would be good. That would really be good.

<End Segment 13> - Copyright © 2012 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 14>

AL: Can I ask a question about Block 8? Block 8 and Block 9 are very close to each other. What is the difference in the demographic? Why was eight so much better? Was it not Terminal Island?

SO: Right, yes.

AL: And it made that big of a difference being just a few yards away?

SO: Yes.

MS: Yeah, that's what I thought it was, because of the, from one block to the next. Would you say most of the Terminal Islanders were in Block 9?

SO: Yes, that's what my friend says.

KL: Alisa and Jeff know those distributions better, but yeah, Block 9 was...

MS: Okay, that's why we left.

AL: All those yogores, right? To get away from the yogores?

SO: Yogores? Yeah. To get away from the yogores.

MS: [Laughs] That's good.

AL: They call themselves that.

SO: Exactly, yes, uh-huh.

MS: I'll remember you said that.

AL: Just one more question. We were talking about giving your mom a bad time, and I'm just trying to understand. Was it mostly women who were ostracizing her? Were the men also ostracizing her, or were the women ostracizing her because the men liked her too much?

SO: Yeah, probably.

MS: I don't think, I don't think men are like that as much as women, you know? In anything. Like women are cattier and you don't see guys standing around gossiping about people, I don't think, not as much as women. So I would say, yeah, it was the women.

KL: But you felt kind of a closeness between the community members when you were living in Terminal Island, is that right?

MS: Yeah, that's right.

KL: Do you think that changed with the removal?

MS: That's what doesn't make sense.

SO: I would think because our father was gone.

MS: Oh, yeah.

SO: I think that's what did it.

MS: I think that was a big factor.

SO: Yes.

MS: Because when he's there... but it made a difference. I think that's right.

SO: I think so, too.

KL: You said you remembered a friend from Terminal Island who was in Manzanar?

SO: Uh-huh. She was also at Compton, and I'm still friends with her today. I just saw her recently.

KL: Who is she?

SO: Grace Mizumoto. She's in my third grade class, the picture there. And she said to me when I saw her in June, "Do you remember the night of the riot?" And I go, "No." She goes, "Yes, you do. We were at the movies." She lived in Block 9, and she said, "We were at the movies, and your mom came over and said you have to leave right now." And we were saying we don't want to. She said, "Get up, we're leaving now." And that, she said, was the riot, the night of the riot or something. And I don't recall, but that's what she told me.

KL: Do you remember those... you've talked some about tensions between yourselves and people from Terminal Island. Do you remember other tensions or conflicts before the riot?

SO: No. Is that when they wanted the... it has to do with joining the service, right? The armed forces?

KL: Well, a very simple version is that there were kind of two different camps, one of which felt like the other one as too supportive of people going into camps and of the U.S. government, and a man who some people thought was too supportive of that was beaten, another man was arrested and blamed for the beating and was imprisoned in Independence and then brought back to the camp, and people were very angry with the two different positions. But I wanted to ask, there was a man from Terminal Island who was a big speaker in camp named Joseph Kurihara. I shouldn't say from Terminal Island, but I've heard about him from some people who fished from Terminal Island. Did your parents know Joseph Kurihara, or is that name familiar?

SO: Uh-uh.

MS: Never heard of him. There's Tatsumi, what's his first name?

SO: Yukio.

MS: Yuki Tatsumi, he was pretty...

SO: Active in the Terminal Island. In fact, he was the head of the Terminal Islanders club that they had formed after.

KL: Formed in Manzanar, the Terminal Island Club?

SO: No, I think it's after, in Long Beach, after the war, isn't it? That they formed that?

MS: In fact, he was the president of the Terminal Islander 'til recently. He's in his nineties now, so somebody else took over.

KL: And you knew him in Manzanar? When did you start to know him?

SO: I think in Long Beach after the war.

MS: In fact, he was our neighbor when we were in Long Beach. Lived couple of doors away, very nice guy.

<End Segment 14> - Copyright © 2012 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 15>

KL: The riot is very interesting because if you talk to any person who remembers it, their memory will be unique about what caused it and where they were and what happened, even, that night. It's very, there are many different versions of it. So you have no, do you have a memory of...

SO: Of the riot?

MS: Well, I heard that there was something that happened by the gate, right?

SO: Where were you? At the movies?

MS: No. And that's all I heard, that somebody was shot. That was kind of scary. Well, the guards always scared me anyway. I think any kid would see the guards and the guard towers and all that kind of thing, because, remember, we never talked about those things, so it's just observing.

KL: All of a sudden there's a man with a gun, or several?

SO: I didn't know that there were eight towers in Manzanar.

KL: Do you recall the towers?

SO: Oh, yeah, I remember. And then I think I read quite recently that the guns were pointing into the camp.

MS: Well, yeah, who's going to be outside? [Laughs]

SO: Well, I thought, gee, maybe they're trying to protect us, you know, from the outsiders. That's what I always thought.

MS: We're supposed to be the "enemies."

SO: Well, I guess.

MS: Right?

KL: It depends on who was telling the story.

SO: Well, I always thought it was pointed out, but I have read recently it was pointed in.

KL: You thought as a child that it was pointed out to protect you?

SO: Uh-huh.

MS: No, because we're the enemies. They have to make sure we don't get out.

SO: Well, according to Papa, just be glad you're an American, okay.

KL: Did you try to keep your distance from those guards, from those military police, or did you ever try to talk to them?

SO: No, we didn't go talk to them, right?

MS: No, you don't go and chit-chat with them. [Laughs] It was scary. Really scary.

KL: How many towers did you think there were?

SO: One at the gate.

MS: I thought so, too.

SO: Was it at your center that I saw the eight, or was it the Japanese L.A. museum?

KL: I'm not sure. It could have been at both.

SO: I'm like, oh my god, there's eight. So that must have been when I went to your center that I saw that.

AL: Do you remember the searchlights?

KL: At night, lights on the towers?

MS: I think I do.

SO: I remember the blackouts. I mean, it went pitch black.

KL: In Compton?

SO: No.

KL: In Manzanar?

SO: In Manzanar also. "The Japs are coming!" that's what we were yelling as a kid.

KL: In Manzanar?

SO: Yeah, when the lights went out. That's what we were yelling as kids.

KL: Was it a blackout like in Compton where you have to just shut off all your lights?

SO: No, the whole camp went black. I do remember that, do you? Or is it my, something I made up?

MS: Blackout was in Terminal Island.

SO: It was at Manzanar. It was at Manzanar. That's in my mind.

MS: I don't remember any blackouts in Manzanar.

AL: Sometimes the fuses blew.

SO: Oh, okay.

AL: Fuses would blow and everybody would be plunged into darkness. So it may have happened, but it may not have been formally a blackout, it might have been just everything went black.

SO: Okay.

<End Segment 15> - Copyright © 2012 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 16>

KL: Tell me about your recollection of school in Manzanar. You brought some pictures of taking classes. Where did you go to school?

MS: Where? In Manzanar?

KL: What do you remember about the classroom or the building?

MS: I remember our teacher slapped me, so I wrote on one of my papers I was doing for my grandson when he was in high school, and they were teaching him about Manzanar, this kind of thing. The teacher wanted him to have us write a story, which I did. And I wrote in there that she had slapped me, so I figured that I must have mouthed off or something.

KL: You don't remember what happened before that?

MS: No, I don't remember. But at that time, you know, like she said, she had a Japanese teacher. Mine was a Caucasian, and she was very mean to (us).

SO: Well, I remember going first, second, third grade in camp. But the first and second graders, they were Caucasian teachers, and they were nice, which surprised me. And then in third grade we get this Japanese teacher. She was so mean that I couldn't understand that. Why is she treating us so badly? But the teachers were nice, mine, anyhow.

KL: The first two, anyway.

SO: Yes, well, except for the one that slapped you.

MS: Well, I figured I did something.

SO: You deserved it.

KL: You had three different teachers also, for the different grades? What do you remember about them?

MS: They were all very good teachers, very kind. And I read an article in the newspaper about the teachers that went to Manzanar. Can't remember, many years ago. They sacrificed a lot to go to teach us.

KL: Were your teachers all Caucasian?

MS: Yes. In fact, I never saw any Japanese American teachers.

SO: Except for ours. Boy, she was mean.

KL: Was school harder in Manzanar than in Compton, do you remember? How would you compare them?

MS: I think it was the same, wasn't it?

SO: I don't know. I don't ever remember doing homework or learning, I don't remember anything.

MS: Yeah, I remember homework.

SO: Homework?

MS: In fact, I have that on my, in the notes I wrote.

SO: And our brother, he just decided he'd play hooky all the time. He didn't go to school. And so he was put back in Manzanar a grade.

KL: Did he have a new teacher when he re-took the grade?

SO: I don't know. I don't remember. All I know is he was put back because he didn't go to school.

KL: What did he do instead?

SO: Go down to the creek or whatever, and he was playing all the time.

MS: Might as well go to school if there's nothing to do.

SO: Might as well. Well, I don't know what he was doing, but I think he was going swimming.

AL: Do you recall the names of any of your teachers?

SO: I know my third grade teacher, Ms. Ishida, because she had to advertise or put an article in the Rafu Bussa, I mean, Rafu Shimpo that she wanted all of her third grade class to attend this Manzanar reunion. She wanted a class reunion also, and I did go to that one. I believe it was in Los Angeles. And we got to see our teacher, and there was a big crowd there with all their exhibits and they were selling books and all that. But the thing is, I didn't recognize anyone then.

AL: Was she still a mean teacher then?

SO: She was mean.

KL: Even at the reunion?

AL: Did you tell her?

SO: No, I didn't. I didn't.

KL: It sounds like she did like you, even if she didn't act like it.

SO: I know. I don't know, but there were three of us in her class that I still stay in touch with, and I just recently saw the other two, and Mildred is her name, Mildred Kobata is her name. And she says, "Do you remember Ms. Ishida? She was so mean, I didn't like her." But the three of us did attend the reunion.

AL: What did she do that made her mean?

SO: She used to yell at us all the time. I guess she's trying to teach us, and probably because we're being disrespectful. All I remember is her always yelling, "Do you want to be a bakatare?" Do you know what that -- now I remember -- yeah, bakatare, all I remember is her screaming at us. Probably she was trying to teach us.

MS: I have a picture of my fourth grade class at Manzanar, and the teacher's name was Miss Harrison. And in the fifth grade in Manzanar, it says Miss Mary Lou Fulton. And sixth grade I don't have a name.

KL: And we were talking a little bit about some of the other pictures. Do you remember who took those class pictures or anything about that?

SO: We don't know how we came to have all these pictures. Now, I'm sure we didn't have a camera.

KL: Well, they're great to have. I'd say that's lucky to have pictures of the kids.

<End Segment 16> - Copyright © 2012 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 17>

KL: Did you guys go to, you went to church in camp.

SO: Uh-huh.

KL: Were there any other groups that you were a part of?

SO: Did you take dancing or anything?

MS: No.

SO: All I went to was church.

KL: No dancing in camp?

MS: No dance.

KL: Did you play music or sing or anything in school?

SO: No, our mother was a singer, and she sang that, she sang shigin, I don't know if you're familiar with that type of music, but it's... so she would take part in whatever, they must have had get-togethers in the mess hall afterwards or once a month, I don't know what. But I do recall her singing.

KL: Was that in the Block 8 rec hall?

SO: Eight, yes, Block 8.

KL: There's a shigin group coming to Manzanar to perform and make a donation this fall.

SO: Really?

KL: And they, do you remember, is it 32 where they would rehearse?

AL: I don't have my laptop. We can tell you, when you come tonight, we'll get you more information. We did an exhibit on shigin several years ago, and I still have all the text from the panels, so I can get that to you later.

SO: Oh, gosh. I didn't care for that type of music.

KL: Oh, really?

SO: No, it's kind of boring.

MS: Real old-fashioned, isn't it?

SO: Isn't it? I mean, to sit through that thing. And she would practice at home.

KL: What kind of music did you like?

SO: Oh, we liked the '40s music, whatever. You know, we could jitterbug.

KL: Saxophones and trumpets.

SO: Yeah.

KL: Did you go to dances ever at Manzanar?

SO: You were still young.

MS: I was in the sixth grade. I started seventh grade when I came out. But I do remember working in the mess hall.

KL: Yeah, I want to hear about that. What do you remember?

MS: Before I went to school? Like KP, peeling potatoes. I remember peeling potatoes, and after the mess hall opened, I'd stand at the end (of the line) and pour coffee or whatever. And then they had these long tables, wiped the tables as they were finished, so I did that.

SO: I remember our mother telling us that she had to go to work because most families had older brothers or husbands that worked in the mess hall or were block managers or something, and we needed money, we were so poor, so she had to go work. And I'm pretty sure she said she used to earn nine dollars a month.

MS: I think that's what everybody (got).

SO: Well, anyhow, she had to go to work.

KL: Were there other kids your age who were working?

MS: I don't recall, no. I was, what, nine or ten at that time. (And) that was just before school.

KL: Those mess halls sound like busy places, with meetings and people coming and going for food and the crews kind of being powerful people.

MS: Yeah. If you didn't eat there, you didn't eat. We didn't have stoves in the...

SO: Yeah, they would clang the bell.

MS: Yeah, and then you'd line up.

KL: Do you remember any gardens or anything around the mess hall? Any rock gardens or water gardens?

MS: I don't recall those things.

SO: I remember a pig farm for some reason.

KL: Did you go out there?

SO: Yeah. Just to go look at the pigs, you know, to go see some animals. And then during special holidays or something, they'd have a display of a pig in the mess hall.

KL: On a platter?

SO: Yes. And I could remember the mess hall always smelling like curry, and to this day I cannot eat curry. I won't eat it.

KL: Yeah, what did you think of the food? You said you didn't like Japanese food.

SO: I don't know. I didn't like curry, and I haven't tried it since.

MS: See, I love curry. That's probably where I got it. And I remember eating wieners and sauerkraut a lot.

KL: Was that a treat, or did you think it was gross?

SO: [Aside] It's my phone.

MS: Oh, I thought it was okay, you know. To this day I don't have too much problems with food. I got used to all that, what was served in Manzanar. What I didn't like were the, what do you call it, serving dish that, you know, they put the food on. It was metal, you know, it was like oval shaped, had a handle like that. I didn't like eating on metal. So that's what I objected to. They fed us, so I shouldn't complain.

KL: Do you think you went to the hog farm with your class?

MS: No, as kids we used to sneak out there just to, I don't know... we used to go down to the creek, and they'd say, "Watch out, don't go in the water." Just to have something to do, we'd go and investigate.

KL: Was that the creek inside the camp, the Bairs Creek on the south side?

SO: I think so. Is that where it was, by the hog farm?

KL: There is one that goes inside the camp.

SO: Okay, it must have been there. We used to go swim out there.

<End Segment 17> - Copyright © 2012 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 18>

KL: Do you have any memory of, there was this questionnaire that was distributed a couple months after the Manzanar riot, asking two questions especially about joining the military or renouncing loyalty to the Japanese emperor?

SO: No. I believe that's what they used to interrogate our father. I remember him saying that... well he was pretty old to be trying to join the military while he was at the prison there. And I remember him talking about that and then trying to send him back to Japan. He would say, "No, sir, my children are American citizens," so he was not about to go back to Japan. And maybe that's why he stayed longer, I'm not sure. But I do recall him talking about that.

KL: What else did he tell you about his experiences in Bismarck?

SO: He said they would interrogate them from morning 'til night every day, and then I think he had a cousin or something that he wouldn't join the military, he was an American citizen, but he was a Kibei, I believe. So that's why he was in the prison, too. If he agreed to go back to Japan or join the military, then he would have been okay.

KL: But he stayed in the prison? He didn't do either?

SO: He didn't want to go into the military.

KL: Did he go back to Japan?

SO: I'm trying to think of his name. No, he did not.

KL: Did your father stay with those other people from Terminal Island? Did he have friends or acquaintances in Bismarck with him?

SO: He never talked about that, I don't know. Do you know if he had friends in Bismarck?

MS: Oh, Bismarck? I'm sure he did. Because I think all the Terminal Island men went to the same place.

SO: Yeah, but they also ended up in Block 9.

MS: And after they were gone, there were all women and children at Terminal Island.

SO: Oh, yeah, we read an article, that's what it said.

KL: You remember your dad saying that he was questioned all day.

SO: Yes, every day. And then it seems, I think, I remember him saying that he did end up in New Mexico, and then he got to come home to us in Manzanar.

KL: Did he say anything else that you remember about being in Bismarck? Do you know what his accommodations were there?

MS: No. He really didn't complain. I think a lot of the men and he did, too, made beautiful vases and things from wood, you know, like maybe tree bark or things like that. But I don't recall him complaining.

SO: No, but you had a picture, there was a picture of him that he sent us, he's wearing a big old peacoat, and it's a blizzard, and he's walking. But there was, seems to me, barracks, a picture of a barrack, so I would think they lived in the barracks, too, like us.

KL: What's your impression of how those interactions went with the interrogators? Were they polite, were they disrespectful, were they threatening? Did you have any sense for that?

MS: I don't think... all I know is when they were searching a room, I mean, they were really throwing things around.

KL: On Terminal Island?

SO: Yeah. But as far as in Bismarck, I think they just said the same, asked the same thing every day over and over, hoping maybe you'd change your mind and go back to Japan or join the military.

KL: So he felt like they wanted him to make a decision between those two?

SO: Uh-huh.

KL: What did he say about Santa, about being in New Mexico?

SO: Well, I think he had to go there before he could come back, come to Manzanar. I don't think you could come from Bismarck to Manzanar, I think he got sent to another camp.

[Interruption]

KL: We're back at tape three of a continuing interview here. And we were talking before we cut off tape number two about your father's experiences in Bismarck and in Santa Fe, and you said you thought maybe Santa Fe was kind of a pass over place before you came back to Manzanar. How long was he in Santa Fe?

SO: Oh, I don't know about Santa Fe, but he was gone for, what, two and half years before he joined us in Manzanar.

KL: And when was that that he joined you in Manzanar?

MS: Where?

KL: Someone wrote down January 1944, does that sound about...

SO: '44, yeah, that sounds right. '44? Did Papa come back to Manzanar in...

MS: What did the license say?

KL: License says '45.

SO: Well, that, the license is right, yeah, that's right before we left.

KL: Did you know that he was coming back? Did you anticipate his return?

SO: Uh-uh.

MS: I think he just appeared.

SO: I think so, too. We didn't prepare for him to come. I don't recall being excited about him coming. I think one day he just showed up.

KL: Where were you, do you recall?

SO: No, I don't know.

KL: Did you walk into the mess hall or were you at home in your barracks?

SO: It was like, "Oh, my god."

MS: I don't even recall that. It just seemed like he was...

SO: He was there.

MS: Next thing he was there.

SO: He was there, yes.

KL: What did he say to you then in Manzanar about where he had been and what had happened the last two years?

SO: No, he didn't want, he didn't talk about it.

MS: Yeah, it's the same story. You know, we're not, or they weren't, so we at that time weren't that emotional type, you know. We didn't do a lot of hugging and all the kissing and all this kind of thing, right?

SO: Right.

MS: We didn't grow up like that. I mean, you more or less felt their love, but, you know, not like how it is with us (and with) each other and (the) grandchildren, things like that.

SO: I think they showed more love after the war, after what he, our father had been through, and you would see them sitting on the sofa holding hands, which I never saw that before, right? He was really nice to our mother.

KL: Your father was nice to your mother?

SO: Really nice after the war, yeah. Probably for what she went through.

KL: What else was different about him?

SO: Well, as a fisherman, they used to drink a lot, too, when they came ashore. I remember many of his friends, men friends, sitting in our house and drinking. And then he quit drinking, I mean, didn't drink, right?

KL: Was he different with you guys? Did it change him as a father?

SO: He was pretty strict. And our mother was just, she never got mad at us, and I think because of her childhood and all that, she never spanked us or anything, she just said, "Please don't..."

MS: But he didn't either.

SO: He didn't either, no, but he'd just yell maybe. [Laughs] I remember singing at the dinner table and he'd call my name, "Sachi." "Yeah?" "Sachi." And I'd go, "Yeah?" And he'd keep saying it until I said, "Hai," you know, like, "Hai." [Laughs] I do remember that. I mean, he was just...

MS: Stand at attention.

SO: Yeah. And they adapted to our American ways, didn't they?

KL: Yeah, as your kids get older, you kind of, it works both ways, right?

SO: Uh-huh.

KL: What was it like for you to have him back at Manzanar?

MS: It was great. Oh, yeah, that was the first time in a long time that all of us were together again since Terminal Island.

SO: But we don't know what he did as far as... I don't know if he went to work. Did he work after he came back? I don't recall what he did.

KL: Did your mother work at Manzanar? Did she have a job?

SO: She did. She sent her. [Referring to MS]

KL: You were probably very different to your father, I mean, as you were seven or eight when he left and five when was taken?

SO: He was like a stranger, uh-huh.

KL: I mean, if you looked different after a month-long fishing trip, two and a half years, to come back and have the baby be just a toddler.

MS: But it doesn't take long, you know. It just seemed like he'd always been there after a while. So it wasn't like seeing a stranger coming into our home. It was great.

<End Segment 18> - Copyright © 2012 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 19>

KL: How did you change the inside of -- this is jumping topics -- but I wanted to ask about how your barracks apartment changed from when you moved into it until when he came back. What was in your apartment when he came back? What do you remember about... still just the mattresses and blanket?

SO: All I remember are beds. I think that's the only furniture.

MS: The metal cots? SO: The metal cots, yeah, the beds for all of us. And we each had a bed, right? A cot.

MS: Which was good, because of the bugs and all these scorpions and things like that, yeah.

KL: Did anybody make furniture for you?

MS: No.

SO: No. One nice thing about camp was every day at two o'clock, the women made, it was snack time, so at two o'clock you just went to this... I don't remember where we went, but they had sembei or they had something for us kids to snack on.

KL: You said you don't know where that was?

SO: No. I know it wasn't in the mess hall. It must have been at some lady's house.

KL: Was it in your block?

SO: I'm sure it was. The women would make snacks for the kids, so every day at two o'clock you'd just, that's where you went.

KL: How many people would go, do you think?

SO: A lot, most of the kids. Did you go, too?

MS: I don't... I'm not sure.

SO: Well, that was something to look forward to every day.

MS: Seemed like you were younger, you [inaudible].

SO: Well, no. No, I was starving, so, yeah. [Laughs]

KL: Did you leave school to go to snack time or were you home?

SO: I don't recall. Maybe it was the summertime. I'm not sure.

KL: Do you remember celebrating holidays in Manzanar? Did you do anything different for Christmas or birthdays or New Year's?

SO: Just the pig's head there, it was on the platter. That's about all I remember for special occasions. But no one celebrated Christmas or birthdays or anything, nothing. Your birthday just came and went, that was it.

KL: Well, do you, are there other things that you wanted to ask about Manzanar?

AL: I had a couple of things, but I'm going to ask you through Kristen's mouth. One was how had your father, if your father had changed at all in physical appearance, like when you first saw him. Had he aged, did he look the same? Any changes? And also, his reunion with your mother and her life changed because he was back. So what he looked like and how they reunited and how her life changed.

MS: I remember him to look the same, and maybe that's because he was still young, maybe. And with Mama, I don't recall any of that. I'm sure she was happy, but we all were.

AL: Did her life improve socially after he came back? Were people, you said people had ostracized her because he was not there, did your family's social life change at all, or did you pretty much keep to yourself?

MS: Yeah, it was pretty much to herself.

SO: No. Well, it was after we --

MS: You know, with the family.

SO: Well, after we moved to Block 8, she was part of the, you know, Block 8.

KS: So she had a social life even without --

SO: Yes, yes, she was accepted. But I don't know how it was after he came home.

MS: I think it was just the same.

KL: You think they both had a social life?

MS: I don't know if you'd call it a social life. You know, just living amongst the other people.

SO: But she was singing. She was singing.

MS: Oh, she was singing?

SO: Singing, yeah, she was performing.

<End Segment 19> - Copyright © 2012 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 20>

AL: Another question is that obviously you're from Terminal Island, but after the "loyalty questionnaire," a large percentage of Terminal Island's population, I don't know exactly how many, but it seems like a majority decided to go to Tule Lake. And how did life change for you guys as Terminal Islanders when so many Terminal Islanders left?

MS: Oh, that reminds me. When the war broke out, when the FBI came, we were getting ready to go to Japan, it seems like, we were packing. And that's why I remember that one particular room where everything was in, I just thought of it. They said that we were packing to go to Japan.

KL: To move to Japan?

SO: We were being sent back, I believe.

KL: What do you mean?

SO: I think it's... I don't know if it's because our mother came in illegally. I remember there was a paper after my father passed away, seems to me like we were scheduled to go on this ship called something-something maru, and the war started, and so we didn't go. We went to... and they took our father away, so it seems like I guess if it wasn't for the war, we'd probably have gone back to Japan.

KL: But you don't think it was by your parents' choice?

SO: Oh, no, no. We were being sent back.

MS: So I guess it's a wonder we got to Manzanar instead of Tule Lake, is that right?

KL: Many people from Terminal Island did go to Tule Lake. And some people, I mean, by choice, some people went to Japan before the war started. Everyone's lives just changed.

SO: No, our father wouldn't have allowed that. He wouldn't have agreed to send us back, for all of us to go back, because he was just too much American, right?

KL: Do you think the World War II experience of Bismarck and Santa Fe and Manzanar, how did they change his thinking about being a member of society and the United States, and being American?

SO: No, he thought that this was the greatest country, and he just always said, like I said, he always said, "Just be glad you're an American." That was his famous word, and he was so proud that his children were American citizens. For what they, our parents went through, they had no hatred or resentment for the government, not at all. He just always said, "Just be glad you're an American."

KL: Did he become a U.S. citizen?

SO: Yes, he did.

KL: What do you recall about that?

SO: Well, like I said, he married for the third time, and he had to become a citizen for this woman to come from Tokyo, and that's when he got his citizenship.

KL: I want to hear more about that, but I want to try to keep us in order, too. So if I forget to ask about how he met her, please remind me. But I'll try to keep in order. Did you have anything else about Manzanar?

JB: Do you remember your address in Block 8?

KL: Your address in Block 8? Do you know which building and which...

MS: Yeah, it's on there.

KL: On the driver's license? Oh, 8-12-1, Manzanar. Do you, so we have this driver's license that I'm going to take a picture of, temporary chauffeur's license from the State of California, issued in Independence, October 10, 1945. Do you know why or how he got his driver's license?

MS: No, we were saying, what was he... he didn't have anything to drive.

SO: She says, "Guess what? I found Papa's driver's license." I said, "So what did he drive? What was the purpose of this?" We don't know.

KL: And you had no car before the war.

SO: No.

KL: So this was his first.

SO: Yeah, it was kind of...

KL: Do you remember him studying for an exam or anything?

SO: No.

<End Segment 20> - Copyright © 2012 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 21>

JB: Do you remember how you left Manzanar? Was it on the bus or a car?

SO: It was a bus. We got to Long Beach by bus.

KS: You were, you said you were in Manzanar, I mean, you were there, some of the longest people there. What do you remember about people leaving? How did that feel?

SO: Oh, it was sad. All of our friends left, and the barracks were vacant, and we're just about the only ones, just a few of us are left. I think I remember our parents talking about, what shall we do? Where shall we go? They don't know. So therefore we just stayed until we had to leave, until they were ready to close it down, right? By bus, right? We went to Long Beach by bus.

KL: As you watched other people leave, what were your impressions of their feelings about leaving?

SO: They were glad.

MS: Because we'd be leaving, too.

SO: If we had somewhere to go.

MS: It was joy.

AL: How did you hear about the war ending and how did your parents react to that?

SO: How did we hear about the war ending?

MS: Oh, ending?

KL: Did you get news of Victory in Europe Day or the atomic bombs being dropped, or the Japanese surrender?

MS: I don't recall us talking about things like that.

SO: I don't remember hearing anyone else talking about it. I don't know how we found out.

MS: And they didn't react, our parents.

KL: They didn't react then or later?

MS: I don't think. It was just settled. We probably would get to get out of Manzanar.

KL: So they were, it sounds like they were eager to get out, but they didn't know where to go.

SO: Know where, right, right. And then you couldn't go back to Terminal Island, so I think they used to do a lot of shopping and things in Long Beach, that's why we went back there.

MS: We had no place to go.

KL: And you didn't have much to pack, so did you, again, just...

MS: Got on the bus.

KL: Did you go with others from Manzanar?

SO: Yes.

KL: Who else was with you?

SO: There was a group that we all went to Long Beach. There's a picture of us, they took us to this federal housing that there was trailers.

MS: Awful trailers.

SO: They were small, and since our family is seven, so we had to have two trailers. And we lived among, it was all black, African Americans, and we invaded their little trailer park, and they were not too happy.

MS: It was in the ghetto. First time we saw other people, and first time we saw murders, shots being fired.

<End Segment 21> - Copyright © 2012 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 22>

KL: What was its name as a development? What was it called?

MS: Oh, at this trailer park? I don't think it had a name.

SO: Well, our other friends lived in another trailer court. It was called Webster, but we lived in... I don't know. I don't think ours had a name. Well, it must have, but we don't know.

KL: Did the neighborhood have a name, or the section in Long Beach?

SO: It was on the...

MS: West side?

SO: West side. It was off of the Pacific Coast Highway.

MS: It would be the west side.

SO: It was the west side.

KL: Do you know the names of any streets?

MS: I'm thinking of Fifteenth, or was that the other housing project?

SO: That seems like it was close to Pacific Coast Highway, I'm not sure.

KL: Then you had two small trailers?

MS: Two small trailers.

KL: Were there other Japanese American people?

SO: Yes. This whole, I think the busload of people went to this trailer park.

MS: But there were other people already living there. They just made, provided us the trailers.

KL: Maybe thirty Japanese American people or so?

SO: Maybe more, more or less. Maybe two white families that lived there.

KL: Were your African American neighbors new to Los Angeles or had they been there... did they move there after the war or during the war, or had they been there?

SO: They had been there, and they weren't too happy with us being there. I used to get beaten up every day.

KL: By other kids?

SO: By the African American children, yeah. I had long hair, they would grab my hair and whip me around and all that, and I tried grabbing their hair, and it's, you know, oily, so I couldn't grab their hair. So I grew my nails, my fingernails, I used to scratch them. That's how I used to defend myself. But just going from our trailer to, we had to go through the trailer park to get to the recreation center, I had to fight my way going there, plus take care of my little sister, and they're chasing us. I mean, every day this went on to the recreation, to school. We went to Edison, I went to Edison elementary school in Long Beach and had, and walking there, get beaten up every day, come back, get beaten up.

KL: Did they say why they didn't like you?

SO: You were a "dirty Jap," yes.

MS: Manzanar was really mild compared to this place.

SO: It was safe in Manzanar, it was safe.

MS: Yeah, it was safe, that's right. We never saw this kind of... well, we never saw other people other than the people we grew up with at Terminal Island and Manzanar. And I'd be walking with a friend to her trailer, and one time, once the door opens as we're passing this trailer, and a dead body falls out. I mean, things like that. You'd be sitting in the trailer, or sitting at my friend's trailer, and a gunshot would come hitting the trailer, you know. There was all kinds of...

SO: Violence.

MS: Crimes. It was a really bad place to live. It's a wonder we got out of there.

KL: This is a question that people have written thousands and thousands of pages on, but do you have a feeling for why it was such a violent place?

MS: Well, that was the first time I saw African Americans, and most of the -- I hate to say this -- but most of the people there were doing the violent things.

SO: I think they drank a lot, too. And we lived across from the community store or something, so they would always be walking close to our trailers to get to the store to buy their wine and beer and whatever. Yeah, there was a lot of drunks sitting around. The only thing we did in the trailer was to eat, our mother would cook, and then we slept, but the rest of the time we were outside, outdoors.

KL: You slept outdoors?

SO: No. That's the only time we were in the trailer was when we slept, to sleep and to eat. And then the rest of the times we were outside, because the trailer was so small. And after a while we got to have some nice African American friends.

KL: How long did that take?

SO: Well, we, after about two years in the trailer courts, we moved to a different housing project which was --

KL: It was also a federal housing project?

SO: -- yes, full of African Americans, and it was a building, buildings, lots of buildings with --

MS: By that time we were used to it.

SO: -- eight units. So we're just tough now.

KL: How did you defend yourself?

MS: How did I? Well, by that time I started junior high school, so I was older.

KL: What was your junior high school?

MS: I went to Franklin junior high school.

SO: You didn't go to Washington?

MS: Oh, and Washington junior high school. When I came out, I went to Franklin.

SO: You did?

MS: And so I was better able to take care of myself than when you were little.

SO: Oh, I was ten, or fourth grade when I came out, so at that age I was just really, beating you up. Gotta do what you gotta...

KL: So it was a little calmer as you got older?

SO: Oh, yes.

MS: Then we did have a lot of black friends living there. And then when we went to... well, it was a step up.

<End Segment 22> - Copyright © 2012 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 23>

KL: What was the second place?

MS: Federal housing project.

SO: It was called Cabrillo 3. There was Cabrillo homes 1, 2 and 3, and we lived in the worst one. And then our other friends lived among the white people, I think that was Cabrillo 1. One and two, there were a lot of whites there. But the three was the worst.

KL: Was there any mixing between whites and blacks, like in number 2? Or was it very, it was strictly segregated white and black and then you guys kind of fit in?

MS: Our friends were mostly by then black kids, because there were so many of them and us. Who else were you gonna play with?

KL: Were there white people and black people in any of the developments together?

SO: No.

MS: Yeah, at the trailer court and Cabrillo 3.

SO: Cabrillo 3.

KL: And I guess you said there were, like, two white people in your first one, too.

SO: Yeah, there weren't too many white... there weren't too many. But there weren't, I don't recall seeing too many black families in Cabrillo 1 and 2, because I had friends there, and, in fact, you lived there, too.

MS: Yeah. I had to, when we got married, we looked for an apartment, and they wouldn't rent to us, they were just so prejudiced. We were living apart, he at his home, and I'm at home. And then we finally had to move in to the same project, which was terrible.

KL: Did you make friends at the first place that you were, ever, off the Pacific Coast Highway?

SO: At the trailer court? Well, we had our Japanese friends, but I don't recall having any of my other friends.

KL: In the first place?

SO: Yeah.

MS: In the trailer court, and also Cabrillo.

KL: So you were in the trailer court for about two years?

SO: Yes, and then maybe a year in the other housing. And in the meantime, when we first went to Manzanar, our parents went and picked green beans in Palos Verdes, and strawberries in Orange County. Because truck used to come...

MS: This was at Palos Verdes.

SO: Palos Verdes. Then they did that for a while, and then our father got a job on a fishing boat. He was one of the crew members. And then we bought a house, like next year or two years.

KL: Your parents bought a house?

MS: Well, see, you have to remember, at that time, they couldn't, they weren't able to own homes.

SO: Property.

MS: But we, and I was not old enough to buy a house. And so when they were ready, we had to ask a friend, I think he was a teenager, and use his name to, and that's how they were able to buy their house.

KL: How did you know him?

SO: He was an old family friend, I believe, from Terminal Island.

MS: And the father was a community leader, and so it was nice that they were able to do that for our family.

SO: I think 'till she was, I think you had to be eighteen to own property in the United States, and so I think when she turned eighteen, then they turned the house over in her name. But then we moved to an all-white neighborhood, the house that we lived in, which was nice. It was very nice. The people were very nice, very, very nice.

MS: We went to school with all different kinds of people. It was just kind of hard at first because we didn't know anybody else except for Japanese people until we came out of camp.

<End Segment 23> - Copyright © 2012 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 24>

KL: How did you and your husband eventually find a place to rent?

MS: We finally had to, after several months, have to go to a motel, and took up housekeeping there, because neither one of us wanted to go with the other one to his house or my house. Every day after work we'd go searching for an apartment, and they'd tell us things like, "Well, it's okay with me, but we have veterans here, and, you know, they wouldn't like it." As if we had anything to do with it. And actually, my husband went to Korea when he was in the army. In fact, they were the first unit (to go), when the Korean War started, because he was (stationed in Japan).

KL: What is his name?

MS: Robert. That was... you know, we have, there was a lot of prejudice after the war. One of the things when I was in camp at Manzanar is that we used to go out into the firebreaks and watch movies. They put a great big screen. And so I kept thinking all the time I was in camp that I would like to sit in the soft, comfortable movie theater, so that's what I did when I... the first time I had a chance, I got on the bus and went to downtown Long Beach and ran into the first theater. Well, it turned out to be an all-news theater, but it was still nice sitting. Coming back (on the bus), people would... you know, you're standing because there are no seats, people would, you could feel the pressure on you, like when the bus is jerking, to get you down on the floor, you could feel the little push with their elbows or whatever. You know, things like that. Although I was just twelve or thirteen, it just went on like that for a long, long time, even after I had my first child.

KL: When was that?

MS: I got married in '53, and (Gary) was born '54. We went to, near Pier Point Landing, Pacific Landing, and I couldn't believe this, because a lot of Japanese fishermen were going out of that landing by that time. And yet, when we went to, they were having some kind of a carnival there in the parking lot, so we took my son, who's like (two years) old, and there was a clown giving balloons out to kids, so everybody was lined up. When it came to, my husband was carrying the baby, and we were, the three of us were in front of the clown, he had the nerve to go around us (and give a balloon) to the child (behind us), until he went down the line. There were people standing on both sides (watching). And one of the ladies, (a mother) with a child (...), the girl had two balloons, so she told the girl to give my son a balloon, and that's how we got (one). Now, something like that, it (wasn't against us), but my kid, that really hurt (...). Because I was used to it, you know, I was used to that kind of treatment, so it was hard (when directed at my child). Anyway, I just cried and cried (later) to think that something... sorry. [Cries] But I did call the Landing and told them, I said, "It's okay with all these Japanese fishermen going on your all-day boat? (...) But why do you have a clown that's there for the children to give..." I thought that was terrible. But I just never forgot that. That was my first (hate) experience with (my child and it was more than I could bear).

KL: When did you notice a change? Did it just kind of gradually become better treatment?

SO: As far as with people?

KL: How people, how Caucasians or African Americans or non-Japanese American people treated you.

SO: It was after the Fair Housing Act passed.

MS: Well, maybe the Civil Liberties. When was that?

SO: I believe...

MS: Wasn't that in the '50s?

SO: No.

KL: The Civil Rights Act was in the '60s.

MS: '60s? I'm sure that helped.

SO: But as far as they could not refuse to sell you a place, that's, I believe it was in the '60s also.

KL: I used to know, but I don't remember the date.

SO: We bought a house in Los Alamitos, California, in 1961. And at that time, they didn't have that law passed. And so the only way you could buy a house in an all-white, or, not in the ghetto, the only way you could buy a house was if the owner sold it to you. And that's how we bought our house. It seems like it was a couple of years after that that this Fair Housing Act passed, which made it nice for, they couldn't refuse you.

<End Segment 24> - Copyright © 2012 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 25>

KL: Were you married in 1961?

SO: I was married in 1957, and we had the same problems about trying to rent a place. You'd see an ad in the paper and it's a vacancy, and when you show up, it's, "Oh, it's already been..."

KL: An hour ago, right?

SO: Yeah. But the thing I disliked the most was Pearl Harbor Day, especially in junior high. I'd just... I wouldn't go to school on that day because the teachers would always say, "Do you know what day today is?" And they'd all turn around and look at me. And that was just too humiliating, so I started to cut classes; I just wouldn't go.

KL: Did you go to Washington junior high, too?

SO: Uh-huh, and Poly High School in Long Beach. After a while I told them... the question that the kids would ask you most, "What country are you from?" I'd say, "United States." "No, what country? What country?" I'd go, "United States. I'm an American." "No, what..." you know, they keep saying, "What country?"

MS: They cannot comprehend. I used to get asked how long I've been here, you know.

SO: "You speak rather good English."

MS: "Where? Here, at this store?" or what.

SO: Yeah, that was kind of funny.

MS: "What do you mean how long have I been here?" They're assuming I'm from Japan or wherever. It doesn't occur to them.

SO: Even adults, huh?

MS: So it's the same kind of the thing with executive order, to put all these Americans in camps, just because we look like the enemy doesn't mean that I have to be... I've never been to Japan. Not even for a visit. But you try to explain that I was born here, but they just don't get it, because your face doesn't match...

KL: Theirs.

MS: Yeah.

SO: Right, right.

KL: It sounds like frustrating conversations.

SO: Oh, yeah. I said, "Whatever, I'm an Indian." That's what I used to say in high school.

KL: Did you really?

SO: Yes, "I'm an Indian."

KL: How did people respond to that?

SO: "Oh, really? What tribe?" "I don't know, some Indian tribe. Whatever. Whatever I look like." Or, "I'm an Eskimo." Anything but a Japanese.

MS: I went out to dinner with co-workers and somebody brought (up), brought up this going to camp (thing). I never bring up a subject like that because I didn't want to talk about it. This was a long time ago. And then one of the girls said, "Well, they had to do it." Well, that caught me cold. I said, "Why? Why did they have to put me behind bars when I don't even know Japan? I've never even been there." But I noticed that -- and this was a good friend that said that -- and I noticed that some people are just ignorant. And she (did) not, no matter how much I explained to her, she could not get it.

KL: So her thinking didn't change.

SO: Right.

MS: Yeah. She just could not understand that. She just, you know, "They had to do it. They had to put you there."

KL: Was she a Californian, too?

MS: Yeah. And I said, "Well, it's like putting you behind bars." I said, "I didn't do anything, I was born here." But they cannot understand that. And I could not understand, I just sat there and bawled because I was so frustrated, that after explaining, that she could not understand that. So a lot of people still thinks like that. So whatever you guys are doing is such a great thing, it is, to educate the public. So it's very good.

KL: We can try.

MS: Yeah, that's good.

KL: Who is your husband? I wanted to ask about your families and if you guys had careers or other things that were important in your adult life. What is your husband's name?

SO: Robert. And he, I believe they lived in L.A. and so they were sent to the Santa Anita racetrack, and he ended up at Heart Mountain. But the whole family, his dad and everyone went to Heart Mountain, and they were only in camp for two years because his mother had a brother in Detroit. So they were able to leave camp and go to Detroit.

MS: To their home.

SO: To his uncle's place. And so I think a lot of people who were able to leave Manzanar, too, also, if they had like a sponsor, I would say, right? Or somewhere to go to, other. I think some of my friends that were in California during the war like in Long Beach, they were farmers, so they were able to pack up their truck and move to Utah, which was fine. If you had, I think it was just the fishermen mostly, or the people on the... fishermen especially, because of their shortwave radios.

<End Segment 25> - Copyright © 2012 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 26>

KL: And it was you who had a grandchild who did a school project, or was that your grand... you had a granddaughter who did a school project?

MS: Oh, grandson.

KL: Yeah, what was his project?

MS: Well, it was about, they were learning... what do you call this about us going to camp? And I think he said, "Oh, my grandma and grandpa went to (camps)," and the teacher wanted us to, for him to ask us to write a short story, which I have brought with me.

SO: Yeah, you should read her story, it's kind of interesting.

KL: Yeah, it would be great to have a copy of it.

SO: Yes, it is. It really is.

KL: How old was he? What grade was he in?

MS: He was in high school.

SO: I would say sixteen.

KL: Was he surprised by things you told him? What was his reaction?

MS: Yeah, I think he was surprised. And he wrote a nice -- I didn't bring it -- but a report on Manzanar and our experiences. So I like that, the fact that the schools are doing that.

KL: Well, we were talking about how different generations are and how people's and generations thinking is a little bit different. Was he, what do you think he thought? I'd love to have a copy of his report, too, if he's willing.

MS: Yeah. I don't know. He really didn't comment too much. I have this book, Executive Order 9066, I don't know if you saw it, it's like a picture book. And I have that laying around the house, and I think they all saw that. And so they kind of realized that they have an idea of what we went through, but I don't think he asked me about camp life or anything. My other grandson graduated from San Diego State, and before he graduated, the last year, the class went to Manzanar, you know, the whole class. And at that time, he said, "Well, I don't want to go with my class." He said, "Would you go with me?" and I said, "Oh, yeah." So the class stayed overnight near Manzanar, and then so Ryan and I went a couple of years ago, and he really enjoyed it.

KL: What did you do while you were at Manzanar?

MS: Oh, of course, went to the interpretive center, and then we visited the other museum also.

KL: In Independence?

MS: Yes. And saw a picture of my brother on a little tricycle, and that was kind of neat.

KL: In the Independence museum?

MS: Yeah, with this two friends.

KL: Did you know it was there?

MS: No, oh, no. And so that was special. And, gosh, my grandson really enjoyed it, going through the interpretive center, that's great. But the first time I went in 2004 for the dedication, and that was only because my son said, "Why don't you go, Mom?" I said, "I don't want to go back there." And for the first time in fifty-four years -- and like I said, I always lived in California -- went to Manzanar in 2004 for the first time. And standing in the bookstore, I think we were waiting to go in. And I got a glimpse of the Block 8 picture that's there, and saw us, like she's sitting next to me. Oh my gosh, I just started crying, I couldn't believe. I cried through the whole interpretive center, and it was very emotional to see the family's name on the back wall. Oh, my gosh. I mean, that really made it seem like it was, we were really there, to see your name up there, and that of your family, and in the book. I mean, you know, sometimes you get to feeling like it's a bad dream or something that happened in another life. But you see something like that, your name's on the wall, and that was really something, and I just enjoyed the whole tour of the interpretive center. They did a great job there. So, I mean, to see your picture, too.

SO: Well, that was a surprise. I mean, that was a shock. She goes, "Can you believe that you walk in there and there's our picture?"

KL: Because you weren't there.

SO: Not with her, no. I just went in June for my first time. I just never cared to... and my friend had been asking all that time, "Come on, I'll take you there when you come to California." I said, "Okay, okay." And this time, I think because my granddaughter did this project for...

KL: History Day?

SO: Yes. And then I had talked to Ms. Lynch, and then after I went there and says, "You know what? I want to do something about it. I want to do an interview, I want to." But I had to have her because I know I don't remember as much as she does.

KL: Well, it's great to have somebody else who was there and who was in your family. Because you'll say things that I don't know.

SO: And I think it's my granddaughter's report that got me kind of interested. I mean, if she's taking such an interest in Manzanar, and I think it's her teachers that... oh, it was, the theme was "the revolution," and her world geography teacher said, "Do you know anything about World War II?" She goes, "Well, my grandma was in Manzanar," so the teacher told her to do the report, then she got really into it. And the teacher even bought her this big old poster, like a six-foot poster, and told her to do it. And then I got to thinking, "You know, it was just meant to be." She did that and then I happened to go there, and...

KL: How old is your granddaughter?

SO: Sixteen when she did it.

KL: I'm just so curious about this generational thing. Was she angry?

SO: No. I just... well, you know, the Isseis and the Niseis did not talk about it. And it's the Sanseis, the third generation up that brought this out, because we just didn't talk about it. They're the ones that wanted to bring it out and why and all this. And my granddaughter is taking Japanese at the Las Vegas Academy and she has two periods of it. One to learn Japanese history... well, she's, I think she called it an international studies student, so that's why she's taking Japanese. And she got into it, and then she started asking me more and more about Manzanar, I'd just say, "Oh, yeah, that's somewhere we were," and really started her project and started looking into it.

<End Segment 26> - Copyright © 2012 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 27>

KL: Well, this is my last question, and then I want you guys to add anything that I've left out. I'm so glad that you wanted to do this interview and that you did think it was important, and I'm curious about why you think it is important to tell your story, your parents' story, and to do interviews like this. What do you think the importance of talking about Manzanar is?

MS: Oh, I think, still, a lot of people don't know. And just looking in the papers and comments to the editors, I mean, you know that they have it all wrong, after all these years, what happened to, and how we ended up at Manzanar or the other nine camps. So with education, I think it was good that they'll know what really happened.

SO: Well, I just wanted it to be known that, for what the Isseis went through, well, like our parents... I mean, maybe some other people that have gone through something like that, they would be so full of hatred and, "Why me?" that I just wanted to do it because of our parents and what they instilled in us, that they were so proud to be Americans, that's why I wanted to do it.

MS: Yeah, even in camp they were constantly telling us, you know, about being good citizens.

SO: Good Americans. "Because this is your country. This is your country."

MS: Even if they said nothing else about our experiences, that they instilled in us. Still a great country, and be good American citizens.

[Interruption]

KL: Have I left -- I said we could talk for five more hours, but have I left anything out that you really wanted to include in this recording?

MS: I think you got everything. I have, what, six grandchildren, and you have...

SO: Six.

MS: Six, and they're all, they call themselves "half and half." [Laughs]

SO: Hapas, really.

MS: And even that, too, in itself, I mean, before I knew friends that were half and half, and they were very ashamed, because people made them feel ashamed. But now these people are very proud of it, which is good.

SO: And what I want you also to know, there's a lot of people that are bitter about what happened to them, and we're not like them. There are so many that were bitter, and we weren't brought up that way.

<End Segment 27> - Copyright © 2012 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 28>

KL: You kindly agreed to stay for another little while, because we were kind of curious to hear more about what became of your parents. And I was curious about their... okay. So tell us about what became of your parents after you left Manzanar.

MS: They went back to working hard again.

SO: And it's when he, our dad got a job as a fisherman that they started, he started making good money where he was able to buy us a house in an all-white neighborhood. And he just continued to fish. And when our mother got sick and the doctor, she started getting sick, so they were going to do this simple surgery on her, because she couldn't keep food down, and so the doctor said, "Well, this is very simple. We're just going to go in, and there's a plug in the esophagus," and they're going to just unplug that and she'll be good as new. When they opened her up, the cancer had spread all over. And my father, our father was on a fishing trip in the...

MS: Mexico.

SO: The tip of Mexico, and so it took him forever to come home. They got him to come home, it was a couple of days after he got home, and then the doctors said that she had six months to live because the cancer had spread and it's just... so anyhow. Back in those days, they couldn't do too much to cancer patients. And so I used to take her to the UCLA Medical Center because they agreed to accept her, and then the only other place was the City of Hope. And so anyhow, she was doing this experimental drug, and I believe it's chemotherapy. But anyhow, she kept getting sicker and sicker, and she died within five and a half months since the doctor told her. And she was forty-nine years of age, and just when her life was just getting where she could start going out and having fun. So she, but one good thing about that is she did get to go back to Japan a couple of years before she passed away, right?

KL: What were the circumstances of that trip?

SO: Why did Mama go?

MS: For a visit, for the first time.

SO: Oh, to visit this... did she go to visit her real mother, or her birth mother or the woman that raised her?

MS: Well, they're all right there.

SO: Oh, I believe she wanted to see her mother, but I don't know which mother, right? Well, maybe she saw both.

MS: Well, the sister wasn't all that nice to her, that raised her. So I would think that it was her real mother.

SO: Her birth mother. So she did go in 1959. I think 1959 she went for a month.

MS: Then our father, he died when he was, like, seventy-eight?

SO: Seventy-six.

MS: But he was, what happened to him was... well, he had a part-time gardening job. So every evening he would, he and his, the new wife, would prepare their lunch for the following days and then go to bed. And his room was at one end of the hall, and hers was at the other end of the hall. And this one night, shortly... well, he went to bed, and he'd read for a little bit, it was the same ritual, and he'd turn off the light and go to bed. Well, this night, when he read and turned off the light, there must have been someone in his closet, because they, with the...

SO: Butt.

MS: ...butt of the gun, just hit him on the -- he was laying like this on the side, and hit him so hard that his whole thing was crushed in.

SO: Skull.

MS: Like about the size of an apple. And he survived all that, but he had just come back from Japan for the first time, and he was, wanted to take some money back to the bank in Gardena, so he went to the bank. And when he was coming back, I think he went kind of blank. It was recommended at that time that they were deciding whether to put a plaque in his head to protect it, but they thought that just a simple operation like that might kill him, so they decided not to. But he blanked out and hit a semi head on. He was in Harbor General Hospital for a while where we constantly was there like twenty-four hours. And finally the doctor said, you know, he felt that we were keeping him alive, and he felt that we should let him go. And when they told us all to go home, then that's when he died. But he died tragically, you know, with so much pain, and all the, it was sad. So they never caught the people, but Grandma is what we called her, and she said --

KL: His wife?

SO: Yes.

MS: She had been here not too long, and so she didn't understand English. And she said she heard our father yelling and saying, "Don't do that," in Japanese, "it hurts." But she couldn't hear what the other person was saying. But there was blood splattered all over the bedroom, and (the person) ran out the front door. And she ran to a neighbor's across the street. Nothing seemed to have been taken, so it was very bizarre.

SO: He survived that; that has nothing to do with that car accident, this was another accident.

MS: Yeah, it was shortly after that, but he was taking phenobarbital, and that's what they thought caused the accident.

SO: That's just... we had a lot of violence. And I think when our mother died and then it was just the five of us kids with our family, it kind of... we got closer because our father is gone, and here we're just all huddled like what shall we do? It brought us closer together. And we took care of our father, and he remarried seven years after. I think... I don't think he knew this third wife, they just... it was my uncle's friend, and they sent her to the United States to marry him.

KL: Did they, was the marriage okay? Were they happy with each other?

SO: Well, I don't know. [Laughs]

KL: That's a hard arrival, for her to have that attack.

MS: She looked a lot like our mother.

SO: She did? She didn't. [Laughs]

KL: Did your father reconnect with that first child that he had with his first wife?

SO: Yes, he brought her over in 1957.

MS: With two children, she had two children.

SO: And her husband.

KL: Is she still in the States? Is she still living?

MS: No, she had severe rheumatoid arthritis where her hands were crippled, you know. And she said the sister, his sister that raised her always used to say, "Gosh, for someone, your mother dying giving birth to you, why..." you know, kind of wondering why they would leave a child so deformed like her. Because she said she got this arthritis when she was sixteen. And so she was like that all her life, she suffered like that with her feet, too, and all that kind of thing. So she passed away several years ago. But she was the nicest, nicest person, real nice.

SO: And she and our mother were just like nine years apart, and so they were like sisters, being raised by the same sister.

MS: And our mother always talked about her, so it felt like we knew her, even if it was the first time we saw her. Just seems like we knew her all our lives. Anyway, everything's fine now.

KL: Wow, I don't know what to say.

MS: We have a bunch of little kids, and now they're all grown.

SO: Yeah, we're all healthy.

MS: Big kids.

SO: All of us siblings, we're all healthy.

KL: It sounds like family has been a real strength for you.

SO: Oh, yeah. So that's it.

KL: Thank you for...

SO: Oh, thank you for hearing our story.

KL: I'm honored to hear your story.

<End Segment 28> - Copyright © 2012 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.