Densho Digital Archive - Shiuko Sakai Interview

Densho Digital Archive
Manzanar National Historic Site Collection
Title: Shiuko Sakai Interview
Narrator: Shiuko Sakai
Interviewer: Kristen Luetkemeier
Location: Portland, Oregon
Date: July 10, 2012
Densho ID: denshovh-sshiuko-01

<Begin Segment 1>

KL: This is Kristen Luetkemeier speaking, a park ranger at Manzanar National Historic Site. I'm here with Shiuko Sakai, and it's July 10, 2012, and we're here for an oral history interview. And with us, our host of fantastic volunteers, Denver Kessler is operating the camera. Helping out with technical aspects also are Dennis Chapel and Steve Kammeyer, and Tomiko Takeuchi, who's helped with the organization is also here and may come and go during the interview. And Shiuko, do I have your permission to conduct the interview and to keep it at Manzanar and make it available to the public?

SS: Yes.

KL: Okay. Great, well, thank you for doing this. You're the first one of this Portland visit for me, so this is, yeah, I really appreciate your participating in this. And I wanted to ask you to start off, since you know some things about your parents, I wanted to hear a little bit about your parents. We'll start with your dad...

SS: What little I know. My mother told me that she was born in Miyajima, Japan, and her mother died when she was very young, so she was raised by a nurse, and her brother really spoiled her. And at the time she was living in Japan, girls weren't, they didn't want girls to go to school, be educated. However, she did go, and she was really... well, nowadays we call it "bullied," they made fun of her and they taunted her.

KL: Were there other girls in her school?

SS: I think there were, but not too many.

KL: What was her name?

SS: Miyo Korenaga.

KL: Okay.

SS: And my father...

KL: [Clicks pen] I'm just going to write some things, too, so I don't forget 'em if I want to ask you a question.

SS: ...was born in Hiroshima, Japan.

KL: Uh-huh.

SS: And he was studying to be a boat captain, is what I understand, and he was on a ship to America. And the story we were told is that he jumped ship, he decided to stay.

KL: Tomiko and I were talking about that yesterday, how people did that.

SS: And he worked in Seattle, Washington, and somehow he was able to go back and got, married my mother and brought her back to Seattle, Washington.

KL: So he just left the ship in Seattle?

SS: Left the ship is what I understand. How he did it, I don't know.

KL: Do you know anything about his schooling, where he studied?

SS: No, I don't. That's about it.

KL: What was his name, your father?

SS: Yoshio.

KL: What was... you said your mom grew up with her brother and she was raised...

SS: Her brother raised her; she had a nurse.

KL: Were they just two kids? Were there other siblings?

SS: Well, I think her brother was married and they had children, but he took care of her. They were businessmen, her brother and her father. They used to have a kind of business.

KL: Do you know what they did, what the business was?

SS: No, I don't. But they did have a store. Maybe they were... I really don't know. I'm just guessing.

KL: And tell me again where she was from in Japan?

SS: Miyajima.

KL: Okay. Is that near Hiroshima?

SS: It's the island where they have the torii, the red gate in the ocean?

KL: Oh, okay. Yeah, okay, yeah. So she and your father knew each other, or their families knew each other?

SS: That I don't know, but they go through contacts. Maybe somebody knew somebody needed a wife.

KL: Were they married in Japan?

SS: Yes.

KL: So did your father come back for the marriage?

SS: Yes. She was not a "picture bride."

KL: Did he go back to Japan other times?

SS: No.

KL: Did he talk about that trip ever?

SS: You know, we never asked. They never said anything. Well, we were, first of all, we were too young at that time. And after we grew older, we weren't interested, I think.

<Begin Segment 2>

KL: Where did they return when they came back to the U.S.?

SS: Where?

KL: Where did they go back in...

SS: To Seattle, Washington. He had a hotel. He bought a hotel. A lot of the Isseis, the first generation, they started businesses. They bought hotels, they started restaurants, laundry business.

KL: Do you know the hotel's name?

SS: It's called Europe. It was called the Europe Hotel.

KL: Did he, do you know any --

SS: He did everything himself.

KL: Did he hire people to work there, or he and your mom...

SS: Yeah, my mother did the maid service, whatever you call it, making the beds. And he did the plumbing and everything.

KL: How long did they offer it, the hotel?

SS: I can't remember exactly how long. Then my mother's sister was ill in Japan, so the (...) family went back to Japan. And my mother... and I was about seven at that time, stayed almost a year, and then we came back, before the year was up, we came back. (Narr. note: My mother and the children went to Japan -- my father stayed in Seattle.)

KL: Do you have memories of that visit?

SS: Of Japan? Yes.

KL: What struck you about it? What do you remember from your time there?

SS: Well, I remember the big red gate in the ocean, and we used to go out there, or walk out there when the tide was low and go clam, digging for clams.

KL: You would climb the gate?

SS: No, clamming.

KL: Oh, clamming. Who did you stay with?

SS: My aunts. The whole family stayed there. And we went to school there, too. We didn't learn much, but we went to school.

KL: Did you speak Japanese pretty well at seven?

SS: No.

KL: [Laughs] Did you speak it at all?

SS: What little our parents spoke. But when you're a child, you pick it up pretty quick.

KL: Were you able to make friends in school?

SS: I don't remember that. Some of the memory is gone.

<Begin Segment 3>

KL: What year were you born?

SS: 1923.

KL: And were you their first child?

SS: No, I was the... let's see, I had two brothers and a sister and then I came along. And then I had a younger sister, the five of us.

KL: What were their names? What are their names?

SS: The first is Tom, Tom Shigeo. Shigeo is the name, actually, and they all have nicknames. Tadao, he went by Ted. Etsuko, and she went by Jean, and me. I didn't have a nickname. My younger sister's Haruko.

KL: So people just called you your full name, Shiuko?

SS: Except when I was working in New York, when I was working, they looked at the spelling of my name, and they couldn't pronounce it, so they started calling me Sue. So I was going by Sue part of the time.

KL: That was later as an adult?

SS: In New York. And down in Washington, D.C., where I was working. I think they looked at the spelling, maybe because I put the "I" in there.

KL: Yeah, you and Tomiko were --

SS: They can't pronounce it. They think it's difficult; it's not really, but... so they started calling me Sue.

KL: Does Shiuko have a meaning, the characters of the name?

SS: The character means... what was it? I can't remember, it'll come back to me. [Laughs]

KL: Do you know why you didn't have a nickname as a kid?

SS: No.

KL: Were you born in Seattle?

SS: Uh-huh, we were all born in Seattle, Washington.

KL: And did your, did you grow up in Seattle, you remained there?

SS: Yes, until the evacuation. So went to Bailey Gatzert school, it was mainly Japanese there. And then Broadway High School. And there again it was mostly Japanese, because after the evacuation I think... maybe around seventy-percent of the students were gone.

KL: Did the school remain open with that many students?

SS: I think so. I don't know anything about Seattle after that evacuation.

KL: Do you remember the house that you... did you always live in one house when you were growing up?

SS: No, we lived in a hotel. We had rooms in a hotel when we were growing up. And after we came back (from Japan), I think we were in a house, I remember that.

KL: What part of town was the hotel in?

SS: I can't... I don't know what part of town that is. It was close to "Hoover(ville)." There was a Hooverville, I think, in that... do you remember? And there were people living, and there were hotels on the outskirts of this place called Hooverville, where people were camping out.

KL: Did you go there?

SS: No.

KL: Who stayed in your hotel?

SS: Well, mostly workers. They were all bachelors.

KL: What was their work?

SS: I don't know. Maybe some were longshoremen, I don't know.

KL: Were they pretty consistent?

SS: Yeah, some of them were very nice.

KL: Would they come and stay for...

SS: They came, and then they would stay for a period and then they would leave and then they would come back again.

KL: Do you remember any of them?

SS: I remember them, yes. There was one particular man who would throw us dimes out the window.

KL: To people walking by?

SS: To us, the children. That's something we remember.

KL: So it was okay for you to hang out with the people who were there?

SS: Well, we're outside, and we'd go by his window and he would throw out nickels and dimes.

KL: That would be exciting.

SS: So we were all children.

<Begin Segment 4>

KL: Were there other hotels around, or what was the street like?

SS: Oh yes, three hotels lined up.

KL: Who operated those, do you remember the families?

SS: They're friends, I can't remember their names, but they were friends.

KL: Did they have children?

SS: Yeah, they all had children, so we all mingled together. We played in the streets, baseball. It's not like it is now where we have so many cars. In fact, my father was the first one who got a car among his peers, you know.

KL: Do you remember when the car came home?

SS: Well, I don't remember when the car came home, but I remember the car, yes.

KL: What was it?

SS: I guess it was a Ford. It was one of those you can, you know, there's a little step, you stepped on it, and then go into there. So we used to go on picnics. When my father would go (...) mushroom picking, a bunch of the men, and my mother always made sandwiches which he would take, and he always brought (back some), I always looked forward to him bringing his lunch back. [Laughs]

KL: Where did they go mushroom hunting?

SS: I don't know the exact places, but I know people got lost. They would go out looking for them.

KL: Were they part of any organizations, your parents?

SS: No, it's just a group of their friends.

KL: Were they part of any groups of other people who were from Hiroshima? Were your neighbors and other Japanese people in the neighborhood, were they mostly from Hiroshima or were they from all over?

SS: I think they were from all over, but there was a group from Hiroshima, and some people from his, where he came from.

KL: Did they go picnicking together or try to keep in touch --

SS: We all, yes. When they had picnics, you know, like I think they have here, too, we'd get together. That was a fun time.

KL: What else was in the neighborhood besides those three hotels?

SS: There were grocery stores and butcher shops all run by Japanese.

KL: Were there any other ethnic groups there, any other recent immigrants?

SS: I think there was... I remember a Russian girl, a Filipino.

KL: They were friends of yours? There was one girl in my elementary school whose grandmother was German, and I remember she spoke a little German. And I remember her because she was kind of exotic, nobody else had a different language like that.

SS: I remember the Filipino girl, we were friends. We used to walk to school, well, Bailey Gatzert was close by, so we all used to walk to school. And also Broadway High School was quite a ways away, but we walked. And then at times we took the streetcar to school.

<Begin Segment 5>

KL: Your elementary school was "Bailey Gatta?"

SS: Bailey Gatzert.

KL: Do you know how to spell Gatzert?

SS: G-A-T-Z-E-R-T.

KL: Okay.

SS: The principal was a lady, Miss Mahon, she was very, very nice. And I remember when I was working in Japan, people in Seattle paid for her trip to Japan. Because I remember...

KL: The principal?

SS: Uh-huh.

KL: Oh.

SS: That's later years, I think maybe she was retired.

KL: Had you seen her again before seeing her in Japan, or that was...

SS: No. I hadn't seen her since I graduated from Bailey Gatzert and the evacuation. So I didn't see her until Japan when she came for a visit.

KL: Do you remember any other teachers from elementary school that were special to you?

SS: The art teacher.

KL: What do you remember about him or her?

SS: I think she wrote to me in camp, kept in touch for a while.

KL: Was she Caucasian?

SS: Uh-huh. They were all Caucasian.

KL: All the teachers?

SS: [Nods].

KL: But the students were mostly Japanese American?

SS: It was mostly Japanese. Just a few, maybe four or five who were not.

KL: So elementary school, how old were you when you left elementary school? Was it through eighth grade?

SS: Through eighth grade, right. Then I went to high school. A lot of Japanese were there, a lot of us were.

KL: Were there people from other neighborhoods, new people, when you went to high school?

SS: Yes.

KL: What was the high school like?

SS: Excuse me?

KL: What was the high school like?

SS: What was it like? I don't know. What do you mean by what was it like?

KL: Do you remember teachers from there, or classmates?

SS: Oh yes, uh-huh.

KL: What subjects did you like?

SS: Shorthand. I liked history. I liked arithmetic, too. I'm not good at it anymore, but I used to love algebra. Not anymore, though. [Laughs]

KL: You liked both history and algebra, that's a good combination.

SS: Well, history I liked, yes. Because I remember we used to go to the library all the time, every Saturday.

KL: Your family would go?

SS: My sister and I and some other friends. And I would always go to the travel section first. I've been interested in travel from way back, and I would look through the books at different countries and hope that one day I would get around to that.

KL: Did you have a list of places you wanted to see?

SS: No, not a list, but I was just curious.

KL: Tell me about the library building.

SS: It's still there, but I think maybe they modernized it. I think maybe they rebuilt it, I don't know. [Addressing someone off camera] Do you remember? Are you from Seattle? You're not, oh. But it's different now. I don't know if they tore it down or just refurbished it, or what they did.

KL: Do you remember its name?

SS: Huh?

KL: Do you remember the library's name? Was it named for a person?

SS: No, I don't.

KL: I haven't been to Seattle either, before.

SS: Are you from Seattle?

KL: No, I've never been there, so I don't know its geography as well. Did you walk to the library?

SS: Yes. We walked most of the time.

KL: Do you know what street the Europe Hotel was on, the street name?

SS: It's no longer a street, I think it's sort of a highway. Charles Street.

KL: How do you spell it?

SS: C-H-A-R-L-E-S, Charles.

KL: Okay.

SS: And let's see, there was across... I remember Rainier Avenue was close by, do you remember that?

KL: And that was you and your sister's routine on Saturdays, to walk to the library?

SS: Uh-huh.

KL: What else did you do on weekends? Did you have other traditions?

SS: No, we got together with friends. Can't remember what we did, but...

KL: Did you play baseball?

SS: We used to play baseball in the streets. I used to be able to hit pretty well. I don't now, but...

KL: I played softball just one season and we were 0 and 12. It was not good. [Laughs] Were you part of a team or any sports team?

SS: No, no, it's just the games were on the... we played with the boys, too.

KL: Did you go to a Japanese language school or anything?

SS: We didn't.

KL: But you did speak Japanese some with your folks, with your parents?

SS: Well, they spoke Japanese, so we spoke, we understood what they were saying, and we picked up some Japanese from them. And then when we went to Japan, we picked up some Japanese there. That's about it. But I know more Japanese than my sister because right after the war, I went to Japan to work for the occupation forces just, right after the war.

<Begin Segment 6>

KL: So did you graduate from high school in Seattle or were you a senior?

SS: Well, actually, I did... I was a senior. June is graduation, right? In April we were forced to move out. So we got, I guess I got credit for high school, and in camp they sent us the diplomas.

KL: I was gonna ask if there was, if you were awarded a diploma later in life, but your high school sent them to you in camp. Do you remember, do you have memories of hearing the news of the bombing of Pearl Harbor?

SS: We were at home; we heard it on the radio.

KL: What was everyone's reaction?

SS: Shock and fear, because it was Japan, it was my parents' home country. Why in the world would they do a thing like that? It was a shock to us.

KL: They were surprised. And what did -- oh, go ahead.

SS: Then we were afraid, too.

KL: You were afraid for your... what were you afraid for?

SS: Because it's Japan and we're Japanese, you know, my parents are from Japan, and we're Japanese. We're American, but we're Japanese also, you know, to everybody else.

KL: You were worried about your safety?

SS: Just the fear not knowing.

KL: I'm sure it was scary to have family, and family that you knew personally in Japan, too.

SS: Yes.

KL: Did things change for you immediately after the attack?

SS: In what sense?

KL: Was anything different at school or different with...

SS: Not at school, but noticed that the Chinese were starting to wear a sign saying, "I'm Chinese." They didn't want to be mistaken for Japanese in case they might do something to them because they looked Japanese.

KL: Were these Chinese kids in school?

SS: They were friends.

KL: Did you have conversations with them about...

SS: No, I don't remember if we did or not. But they were fearful, too, because they didn't want to be Japanese. If they were Japanese, something might happen to them.

<Begin Segment 7>

KL: Did your principal... sometimes I've heard people say that their principals gave kind of a speech about, either about the U.S. and Japan going to war or saying to the teachers and the principal... they didn't say anything?

SS: No, I don't remember anything. But I think shortly after that, the Executive Order 9066...

KL: How did you hear about that, do you remember?

SS: I don't remember how we heard it, but word gets around very quickly. And then we looked around the house and said anything Japanese, there's an area in front of our house, we'd throw everything out. Japanese records that had nothing to do with the war or anything, we just threw everything out. Getting rid of everything Japanese.

KL: How was that for your family? How was that for your family?

SS: We scurried around, looked for anything that had Japanese on it. We had some old prints, we threw those out.

KL: Was that hard for your folks?

SS: Yes, for my mother. I think it's hard for anybody. Of course, we didn't have that much, but what little we had, we just got rid of it.

KL: And you said people were talking together about the executive order?

SS: Well, at that time I didn't know about the executive order. All I knew was we had to, we had to pack whatever you can carry, maybe two suitcases, and go to a certain corner. I can't remember which corner it was, but I remember a group was gathered there. And they said a bus will come by to bring you to the assembly center, which for us was the Puyallup Fairgrounds.

KL: Did it catch you off... were you surprised that you were being forced out of your home, out of your hotel?

SS: It was a shock to us, yes. We didn't know where we were going. I didn't know where Puyallup was.

KL: Oh, you hadn't been to the fairgrounds before?

SS: No.

KL: But you said a bus picked you up at a corner?

SS: Huh?

KL: You said a bus came to the corner to pick you up?

SS: They told us to gather at some corner, I don't remember exactly which corner, but with what you can carry with you.

KL: What did you take?

SS: Clothes. I mean, what can you carry except clothes? I don't remember, but I liked to draw, so maybe I took some things with me, I don't recall. Because I have something, the drawings and painting that I did in camp.

KL: Had you heard rumors about Puyallup or about where you would be going?

SS: No.

KL: Did you have a guess about what it would be like?

SS: No idea. Nobody had any idea. We were fortunate that when we got to camp, we were housed in the parking lot area where they built these barracks. Because the other people had to go to the fairgrounds where they kept the animals. They built barracks on the fairground where the animals were kept, so they had a miserable time.

KL: But you were kind of outside of that?

SS: Yes. The fairground is here, and we were out near the parking areas here, so that's where we were.

KL: Were you with neighbors?

SS: Yes. Not neighbors we knew.

KL: They were new to you?

SS: Yeah. But this long barrack about maybe five, five rooms. There were six of us in one room.

KL: What was with you in the room?

SS: My two sisters, my two brothers and I, and my mother, in one room smaller than this room here. And I think there were five families in this one barrack. And the partition didn't go all the way up. The roof was like this, the partition came to about here.

KL: Where was your father?

SS: My father died before. Fortunately, he died. I mean, that's not a good thing to say, but if he had been living, he would have been picked up and sent to Montana or someplace, picked up by the FBI.

KL: Do you think your parents intended to stay in the United States? Were they pretty, did they feel very much a part of Seattle and of the United States?

SS: Yeah. It was pretty hard for my mother.

KL: When did your, how old were you when your father died?

SS: It was sad, but I don't remember.

KL: Were you in high school?

SS: I think I was still in high school, yeah.

KL: So that wasn't that long before you were, had to leave the hotel.

SS: Well, he had another business, too.

KL: What was that?

SS: I want to say dry cleaning, but at that time, the people were wearing hats, they brought hats and maybe dry cleaning too, I can't remember exactly what it was, but it was on Jackson Street, that I remember.

KL: Is that close to the hotel?

SS: No.

KL: But he had the car?

SS: He had a car.

KL: You had to dispose of the car?

SS: At that time we didn't have a car, no. Sorry.

KL: That's okay.

<Begin Segment 8>

KL: So you moved into the barracks in the Puyallup Fairground. Was the building finished when you came?

SS: The barracks? In Puyallup?

KL: Uh-huh.

SS: Well, finished... it depends on what you call finished.

KL: What was it like? So you said the building had six apartments in it?

SS: Six rooms, bare rooms with nothing in there except your cots. It was temporary. And when we got there, do you know what a mattress ticking is?

KL: Uh-huh.

SS: They gave us mattress tickings and then they told us to go there and fill it with the straws they had out there. That was the mattress. They gave us blankets. And then the bathroom facilities were all outside.

KL: That's a shock.

SS: Yes, shock to everybody.

KL: What were the interactions like between, like, you and your family and other people who were forced into Puyallup? Were there guards? Who else was around?

SS: Were there what?

KL: Were there guards or...

SS: By the entrance probably, yeah.

KL: Did you interact any with the administrators?

SS: No. Not in Puyallup, no. What you would call administrators were all inmates, the people in camp who took over. It's different from like Minidoka, they had administrators there. But in Puyallup, I think we were all on our own more or less. Maybe there was somebody that... I don't remember.

KL: Did anybody organize a library or any services in Puyallup?

SS: No, I don't think so. We weren't there very long. April... maybe four months is all, four or five months.

KL: One of the most amazing pictures I've seen since I started this work was of a lady who had planted a vegetable garden in one of those assembly centers.

SS: Oh, really?

KL: And I thought that was amazing that she didn't know how long she would be there or anything. How did you get the news that you would be leaving Puyallup?

SS: I don't remember. There a lot of things I don't remember. I think I tried to forget it, a lot of it. Only recently have I been kind of thinking about it, going through my, whatever I have, trying to recall it. But in the past I tried to forget.

KL: What brought on the change, do you think?

SS: Well, I volunteered at the Legacy Center.

KL: Oh, okay.

SS: But I've always been a collector. I like to collect articles of interest, or anything concerning Japanese. So I have a lot of those things, and I have lot of... a lot of these newsletters that we had in "Camp Harmony," I have those, and I have some of those from Minidoka. And I always have some newspaper articles about the war from Seattle. They're real old, 1942, '41, '42, still have those. Even in, while I was in Washington, D.C., anything concerning, to do with the evacuation I would clip out and save. So I have all those. I've been sending it to the Legacy Center for their files.

KL: Yeah, that would be a good collection to see what, I always think it's interesting to see what newspapers in different parts of the country say and what people were saying in the '50s and the '60s.

SS: Yeah, there are other people who have been saving papers, too, because I go through them at the Legacy Center. Some are real old, but they're interesting.

<Begin Segment 9>

KL: Do you remember the trip from Puyallup to Minidoka?

SS: On the train?

KL: Yes. What was that like?

SS: Not very good. [Laughs] Not very pleasant. And when we got off, we got off the train and you looked all around you, like you're in nowhere. There's nothing to see, I mean, just sagebrush and maybe (tumbleweeds). We thought, "Where the heck are we?" Then they put us on a bus and then got to Hunt, Idaho. They call it a siding, I think railroad siding where we got off. No station, no nothing. It's hot.

KL: Was it August or September?

SS: September, (...) somewhere around there.

KL: Were there military police with you on the train?

SS: Yes, there was. At least there were police when we got on the train. They must have been on the train, too, do you remember? I don't remember.

KL: Did they, you don't remember really interacting with them.

SS: No, I don't think they could. They couldn't fraternize, is that what they call it?

KL: How long was the ride?

SS: I don't remember. Too long.

KL: Was your family all still together?

SS: I don't know if we sat together but we were all there.

KL: And you said there were buses that picked you up and took you to Minidoka?

SS: I think so.

KL: Do you remember your first impression of Minidoka?

SS: Not very pleasant. [Laughs] Because the camp was not finished. They sent us there, but it wasn't finished. The bathroom facilities, the toilets and all, they weren't finished. Well, you know how camp was, just six barracks on each side, and in the center was the mess hall and then the laundry, bathroom facilities. They weren't ready.

KL: What did you do?

SS: What did we...

KL: What did you do?

SS: There was an outhouse with about three or four holes; it was terrible. And the showers, they had those spigots, maybe half a dozen spigots. We're not used to bathing with other people. It was kind of embarrassing; I don't remember bathing there. And at night in the wintertime, it's very cold, and it snows. So at night we're getting ready for bed, put on our nightgown, and my mother would say, "Let's all go to the bathroom, the outhouse." So we'd put our boots on and put our coats on, hats on and everything, and then trudge out to the (outhouse), which was not close by. And then we'd go in one by one because we don't want to sit together. [Laughs] That was terrible. I remember that.

KL: Did you put up anything for privacy in the bathroom?

SS: No. Just, there were just holes, there was nothing, no way of putting up anything. And when they finished the main bathroom area, there were no partitions there either for showers and then for the, you know, when you have to go to the bathroom, there weren't partitions. Later on they put the partitions in. That was hard. Even now I don't want to go to the bathroom with other people. [Laughs] And then we had to go to the mess hall every day at a certain time.

KL: You had a scheduled time?

SS: Uh-huh, they had a scheduled time. And a lot of people like my sister, she used to hate apple butter, because we had apple butter for... but now she loves that. [Laughs]

KL: Really?

SS: So every time we got up for breakfast, she said, "Oh, apple butter."

KL: Apple butter must have been big. People remember that about Manzanar, too, although most of them say they didn't want it anymore after, after being there.

SS: There was something else, I can't remember... what was the other thing people hate to eat because it reminded them of camp? There was something else but I just can't remember because I didn't have any preferences or anything.

KL: What block were you in?

SS: Twenty-six.

KL: Do you know the rest of your address in Minidoka?

SS: Twenty-six, I think it's Barrack 6, and Room B. There's A, B, C, D, E, F. The A was the smallest, which had two people in it, and B was the biggest, five of us, six of us in there. And the middle two, C, D, were for smaller families. So we had the biggest room. With one potbellied stove, and one light fixture, one window. And when a dust storm came by, we just had lots of dust in our room. It was cold in the wintertime.

KL: Do you remember your, any of your neighbors from the building? Who else was in, who were your neighbors?

SS: The one... we had the same entrance, a couple, (Mr. &) Mrs. Kubota of the Kubota Gardens in Seattle.

KL: She was next door to you?

SS: Yes, he and she were next door to us. We used the same entrance. I can't remember... I know who they are, but I can't remember the names of the other people.

KL: What was their response to being in Minidoka? How did they...

SS: I don't know. We never talked about it, at least I didn't. I think we just, well, this is the way it is, and we just said, they said, "Shikata ga nai," nothing you can do about it. We're there, they put us there, what can you do? Even if you question them, what good is it gonna do?

<Begin Segment 10>

KL: Do you remember, do you have memories of the so-called "loyalty questionnaire" that was distributed in '43?

SS: No. The only thing that I know is we all say, "Well, let's do what they want us to do." I mean, some of the questions was kind of silly, but...

KL: So you did, people did discuss that with each other, you remember conversations?

SS: Yeah. I think there were a few, there were a couple of boys who said "no-no," but the majority went along with it.

KL: Was it tense between people?

SS: Not among people that I knew. My brother volunteered.

KL: Tell me about that. Were there conversations about that, or was it a decision he made independently?

SS: I think there were people who were against the people who said "no-no," they said they have said "no-no." But maybe they were right to say "no," I don't know. But they knew that there were going to be penalties to saying that.

KL: Yeah, you would think...

SS: Yeah.

KL: But you think many of the people who enlisted thought that was not a good decision?

SS: To say no? Yeah.

KL: Which brother was it who volunteered?

SS: The older brother.

KL: Shigeo?

SS: He had bad eyesight, they said, and they didn't want to take him but he said, "Just let me, just let me go, pass." And he got in even though his eyesight was so bad.

KL: Did he get tested, his eyesight was tested in Minidoka?

SS: Huh?

KL: Was his eyesight tested, did he have a physical?

SS: Yeah, they didn't want to take him, but they took, he begged them to take him, so he got in.

KL: He must have been pretty persuasive.

SS: He must have been. [Laughs] When he went overseas, he can't see to shoot. So he was in the area where they prepare the food for the troops. But when the battle was so bad, all the guys were being killed, they even put him up front.

KL: Put your brother...

SS: Yes. It's too bad he's not around, 'cause he could tell a lot about that. He said he was on the truck with fellow soldiers on each side, and when they got bombed, he said, "I have two lives." All the people beside him got killed, but he didn't get killed. So he survived.

KL: Why do you think it was so important to him to be able to volunteer?

SS: You know, I really don't know. But I think some of the guys who volunteered, it was a way of getting out of camp, I think. Maybe some of them thought they would prove something, their loyalty. But I think a lot of them, this was a way of getting out. It's boring staying in camp. That's why when they wanted people to go out to the farms, to pick potatoes or beets, whatever, I went out, too.

KL: You did?

SS: Yes.

<Begin Segment 11>

KL: Where did you go?

SS: To one of the farms, picked potatoes and onions, and I'm not a farm girl. And the other girls were raised on the farm, you know, they'd go out picking. My sister and I would go down one block, they'll go down the block and back, we're halfway down the block, so they had to come help us.

KL: Was it your younger sister who went, too? Who went with you, which sister?

SS: My sister?

KL: Uh-huh.

SS: Haruko.

KL: She went to the farm with you?

SS: Yeah.

KL: Did someone teach you?

SS: Huh?

KL: Did someone teach you how to...

SS: They had to teach us how to pick the potatoes. But we weren't very fast. The others were so fast.

KL: They had grown up on farms?

SS: Right.

KL: Who did, did you go with friends?

SS: Yes. It was fun, you know, to get out of camp.

KL: How did you get to the farm?

SS: I think they picked us up in a truck.

KL: Do you remember the owners or the...

SS: No.

KL: What was your housing? What was your housing on the farm?

SS: Oh, we just went out and came back for the day.

KL: Oh, okay.

SS: We didn't stay.

KL: Were these farms that were operated by Minidoka?

SS: No.

KL: They were private?

SS: Private, yeah. Because I think they needed the workers.

KL: Yeah, they did.

SS: Because of the war. You know, right now they have illegal immigrants coming in? Well, we were the immigrants then, I guess.

KL: How long did you do that, just one season?

SS: Not too long, just one season.

KL: And you were picking potatoes, you said?

SS: Digging potatoes and onions.

KL: Did you do other things to try to fight the boredom?

SS: In camp?

KL: Uh-huh.

SS: Yeah, there were a lot of things to do. In the wintertime the canal would freeze over, we'd go skating, ice skating. Well, I worked.

KL: What was your work?

SS: Secretarial work, I worked in the engineers office first, and then I went to the school system and worked for the counselor at high school, superintendent.

KL: Did you interact with the students in the high school?

SS: Pardon?

KL: Did you interact with the students in the high school?

SS: No, no, I was in the office.

KL: Who was in the office? Were there other teachers who were incarcerated, Japanese American teachers or Caucasian?

SS: In the office, no. There were a couple of other friends, couple friends of mine who were there working in the office. I had another friend working in the principal's office.

KL: Well, did your friends say anything about the principal? What were their impressions of the principal? Didn't really see him?

SS: Right.

KL: I just was curious to know about the administrators...

SS: I thought you had read something about the principal.

KL: No, I know very little about Minidoka. I know much more about some of the other camps, but I know very little about Minidoka.

SS: He was a very nice person, I liked him.

KL: And I am curious about who, what motivated people to come and be a principal or a teacher in the camps, it's kind of an interesting collection of people.

<Begin Segment 12>

KL: This is tape two of a continuing interview here with Shiuko Sakai. And I should have said that we are in Portland, Oregon, in the Doubletree Hotel in the first one. And we were talking during our change of tapes and break a little bit about your painting in Minidoka, and I wondered if you would tell us about the paintings that you did in Minidoka.

SS: Well, they're not great paintings. I liked to paint, so I just looked out the window, maybe look out and see the canal, go out there and paint a little canal scene. Or I'd look out the, towards the other areas, I see the barbed wire fence, I'd see a guard tower in the distance and then I'd... part of the barrack next to me, next to our barracks. So I have a corner of that. Then it was, I think, close to sundown, and the sky was a bright orange, it was pretty. So I painted that. And other times I'd look out where the canal was and I'd see beautiful skies. I didn't paint that, but I just liked to look around and see different things that I could paint.

KL: Did you have a teacher in camp, or you just did it on your own?

SS: No. I always liked to paint when I was, from grade school. It's just one of those things. I didn't have a teacher, no. I mean, I took art in school, that was it.

KL: I wanted, you reminded me, too, of the Kubotas who were your neighbors, and I wondered if they were involved in gardening at Minidoka, or what your memories of gardens at Minidoka were.

SS: Gardening?

KL: Uh-huh.

SS: Well, Minidoka, no, we didn't have areas we can garden that I recall. But in "Camp Harmony," in Puyallup, people planted flowers right outside their entrance. I don't know where they got the seeds.

KL: There's, in some of the pictures that you have of your brother, it looks like there's some landscaped area in front of your mess hall.

SS: See, as I said, Mr. Kubota, who's a, Kubota Gardens in Seattle, he may have had something to do with it.

KL: But there was a garden or a landscaped area around your...

SS: Around the mess hall, yes. Beautifully done. So he may have... maybe he had something... but you told me that somebody was in charge of landscaping?

Off camera: No, Anna Tamura, National Parks.

SS: Oh, the National Parks?

KL: So now she works with restoration and gardens.

Off camera: She's doing a study on it.

KL: How did people react to that garden coming? What did you think of their being a garden and a landscaped area by the mess hall?

SS: I thought it was nice.

<Begin Segment 13>

KL: So how long, when did you leave Minidoka?

SS: I think 1945, went out with four other girls, they were girls at the time. What happened was I was in the in the counselor's office, and some representative from the WRA office in New York came, and he talked to us. He sort of convinced me to go off to New York. He told them to line up a job for me as a secretary. So when I got out there I had a job. Went out there with the four other girls, took a train, it was the longest train (ride). Besides the train from Puyallup to the camp, that was the longest commercial train, I think.

KL: But a different sort of ride, I would guess.

SS: I think I was eighteen at that time, I mean, that's kind of a scary trek for somebody.

KL: You were eighteen when you left the camp?

SS: I think I was. But when I think about it, I think I have a lot of nerve, looking back. I didn't know anybody out there, but there were four other girls with me. And they lined up room and board for me. And I didn't know at the time who this person was. Do you know a Reinhold Niebuhr?

KL: Yeah.

SS: He's a very well-known theologian, and he had an apartment... do you know New York City?

KL: Much better than Seattle. I've visited several times.

SS: Do you know where Riverside Church is?

KL: Yeah.

SS: Well, Riverside Church is on Riverside Drive. And the Union Theological Seminary, the apartments for the professors at the seminary is right behind the Riverside Church. And right across the street from the apartments is the seminary, Union Theological Seminary. My little room was between the Riverside Church and the apartments of the professors. So every morning I got up to the church bells ringing. I had a very small room, but I took care of the little girl and the little boy.

KL: It was in Reinhold Niebuhr's house?

SS: Their apartment.

KL: The room?

SS: No, no. The room was between the two, the apartments and the church. There was an area there for, small rooms for maids, I guess. It's a small room, just a bed, toilets. That's where I stayed for a while. I took care of the little girl, gave her a bath, got her ready for school. In the meantime, I worked downtown, I worked as a secretary at national headquarters of the Union... not Union, Lutheran Council, National Lutheran Council. And that was situated (at) Thirty-Fourth and Madison Avenue. I think it was Madison Avenue. And the offices were located in the former JP Morgan home, but on the corner of...

KL: Wow.

SS: And by that time, I think I called my mother and my sister to New York, and then I got an apartment on Broadway and 100th... 140th Street near NYU, and not too far from Columbia University. So I took the Fifth Avenue bus and got off at Thirty-third or someplace, then going to Chock Full O'Nuts for my coffee.

KL: Ooh. Yeah, my friend's thesis production from Columbia theater school was in Riverside Church.

SS: Oh, really?

KL: Yeah, so I know that building. I went to see her show. Did you like New York?

SS: It was interesting, yeah. I liked it at first, it was nice at that time. Not like it is now. I wouldn't live there now, but at the time it was very nice.

<Begin Segment 14>

KL: And you said you brought your mother and Haruko?

SS: Brought my mother and my sister. I didn't bring them, I told them to come out.

KL: Did you set, were they able to come because you had housing, or what arrangements did you have to...

SS: No. When they first came, there was a hotel, they called it a hostel, where people from camp could come out and stay until they found permanent housing.

KL: Who ran that?

SS: I don't know. I think the WRA probably. I don't know. Maybe the church, I don't know. I didn't ask. But the church was very active in helping the evacuees. In fact, there's something about Reinhold Niebuhr in here, and about a group of people, the Christians, you know, they supported the war, but they were against evacuation, I thought that might be interesting to you.

KL: Yeah. I would love to take pictures of the things that you brought before you leave. And if you care to copy or scan any of these and send them to us, that would be great, too, to have at Manzanar. It was Niebuhr's daughter that you were caring for, right, when you were working there?

SS: The little girl, and there was a little boy, too.

KL: Do you remember interacting with their parents? Did their parents speak with you about your experiences?

SS: Oh, yes, they'd tell me what to do.

KL: What did they give you as their reasons for being opposed to evacuation?

SS: I don't know. I mean, I didn't talk to them about it. At that time we weren't... but she was very nice. She was asking me, she gave me, I think she gave me... because I have a little note, I can't find it now, but she said, "Is this enough?" She gave me some money, too, I think, in addition to room and board.

KL: Was your mother and your sister the last of your family to leave Minidoka?

SS: Uh-huh.

KL: How did your older sister and your other brother leave?

SS: Oh, my older sister would, got out of camp. (She) married, and she lived in Denver.

KL: Oh, did she go straight to Denver from Seattle?

SS: No. (...)

KL: Oh.

SS: She (went to Iowa from camp).

KL: Oh, what took her to Iowa?

SS: Because we had friends there. And the man she married was going to school there.

KL: Was he Japanese American also?

SS: Yes, he was from Hawaii. So they went down to Denver after he graduated, and then the war came along. They had a little baby. So she came up, she came (back) into camp for a few months with the baby, and I don't know where he was, he came up later, I think. But during the war... this was during the war, and they got shipped back to Hawaii.

KL: She and her family?

SS: Yes. But my sister and (baby) were in the camp for about four months.

KL: Before they went to Hawaii?

SS: Uh-huh.

KL: And then from the camp they went to Hawaii?

SS: Uh-huh.

KL: I see. And you said her husband was in the camp with you for a short time, too?

SS: I don't remember him being in the camp, though, I don't know. Maybe he was still in Denver and he made the arrangements so they can go back to Hawaii. I'm not sure. That's kind of different.

KL: Yeah. Well, there weren't very many Japanese American people in Iowa in the 1930s either, or '40. Were they attached to a university in Iowa?

SS: Who, my sister?

KL: Your sister and your brother-in-law.

SS: No, they weren't married at the time, but he was a student there.

KL: Do you remember the school he went to?

SS: Iowa, University of Iowa. See, my girlfriend was there going to... what's the other school? Des Moines, Iowa?

KL: Drake?

SS: Drake. So my sister knew them, so she went out there.

KL: And then to Denver and then to Minidoka and back to Hawaii?

SS: Uh-huh.

KL: And then how did your brother leave Minidoka, your second brother?

SS: I think the was drafted, so he went to Europe.

KL: Did he, did the two brothers, were they close to each other in Europe? Did they see each other?

SS: I think my brother was, the older brother was in Italy, and the other one was in France. I don't know if they ever got together.

KL: Did your family write letters to each other, were you able to stay in touch?

SS: I don't remember writing to them, but they wrote back. They were all censored. I still have 'em. [Laughs] You can't say much, they didn't say much.

KL: We have my grandfather's from that time, and he would sometimes write things like, "Hello, Censor." [Laughs] What did your mother and your sister think of New York when they got there?

SS: Oh, my mother loved it.

KL: What did she love about it?

SS: I don't know, she loved, she liked living in New York. Not that we did many things. We'd take her downtown or we'd go to beaches, take trips down to Washington, D.C., and all of that. But I didn't live in New York that long.

KL: When did you leave?

SS: It was 1947? My girlfriend from (Iowa) was going to, she was coming, she graduated, so she was coming to, going to Washington, D.C., to get a job. So I said, "Oh, I'll go with you," to get a job with the occupation forces in Japan. So I worked for the Department of the Army. And this was December of '47, it was right after the war. So I worked for the intelligence. I didn't do any of the intelligence work, but I was a secretary in the Department of the Army. And so we got to travel around, so I was able to visit relatives in Hiroshima. This is right after the war, the bomb. It was really a terrible sight to see. And I had a friend --

KL: Do you remember getting the news of the atomic bombs being deployed?

SS: I just don't remember that. Maybe I don't want to think that, I just don't remember. But I had my friends, a mother with three girls and a boy, a teenager, I think he was going to high school. They were living right outside of Hiroshima, and I think because of the war, the young students had to go into town, Hiroshima, to work in some, I don't know if it's a factory or what they had. And when the bomb hit, he was killed. And the mother, I don't think trains were running, and she told me that she got her wagon and went into Hiroshima where all the students were, and she picked up her, the boy's body and brought it home. Yeah, that's sad to hear. But eventually their family came back to, went back to Seattle, Washington.

KL: Your friends' family?

SS: My friends' family.

KL: Whose son was killed.

SS: But they were all U.S. citizens. I don't know why they were all stuck over there.

KL: Yeah, sometimes people chose to go back before the war, sometimes they went during...

SS: And then they're stuck there and they can't get back.

<Begin Segment 15>

KL: So your friend had told you about an opportunity to work for the occupying forces, or how did you...

SS: Uh-huh. So we went down to Washington, D.C., and they gave us tests for federal government, and we passed, got a job.

KL: What were your thoughts on... I assume you went by boat to go over there?

SS: Yes, terrible. It was a small boat. [Laughs] Not a luxury liner.

KL: Were you sick?

SS: And there were troops on the... and they were stacked up about three high, people getting sick.

KL: What were your expectations for what it would be like in Japan?

SS: I wasn't expecting anything. I just thought, well, Tokyo was bombed. It was. And people were poor. They give you things, too, because they want money or they want something from you, goods, you know, which we... you know, we would give them things.

KL: Were you working outside of Hiroshima? Or were you in Tokyo?

SS: I was in Tokyo.

KL: But you went to Hiroshima and visited family or friends?

SS: We could take vacation time to go places.

KL: So Tokyo, was it hard living for you?

SS: It wasn't hard for us, no, because we were billeted in the, you know, buildings. Buildings that were changed into accommodations for workers. They had a (dining room), it was very nice for us.

KL: Were you still with your friend that you had decided to go with?

SS: We all got different jobs, different places, but we saw each other frequently.

KL: Were there memorable people that you worked with, that you met who were part of the occupation?

SS: You mean...

KL: Does anybody stand out, either a coworker or a supervisor?

SS: Oh, yeah. I had one... he was a major at the time that I was working for, he used to, his father was a missionary in Japan, so he grew up in Japan, (spoke) very good Japanese. He was very fluent. He was there as a young man, too. So he used to hang around, he was a newspaper person, too. He used to hang around with this so-called spy during the war, German spy Sorge. They used to go drink, and he knew him, which I thought was interesting.

KL: Where were they during the war, in the U.S.?

SS: (Yes). (Narr. note: The major and his family were back in the U.S. prior to World War II. I was in Japan after the war.)

KL: In Tokyo. You were doing secretarial work?

SS: Uh-huh. And then eventually they started a school for army officers who went to school in the state's, in California, the Defense Language School, I think it's called. Maybe it was called something (else), then they took lessons there. They studied Japanese there, and after a few years, they were sent to Japan, Tokyo, for further language and area studies. And the school (eventually) went under the embassy, but first it was for, under the army, and I went along with them to work in their office as their office manager or whatever.

KL: Were the linguists Japanese Americans, were they Nisei people?

SS: No, they're all army officers, Caucasian. And all the teachers were Japanese. And they would go on trips in addition to studying at school, they would go on trips for the field study.

KL: What was your work with that group?

SS: I sort of managed the office, did everything that needs to be done administratively and secretarily. And kind of... I didn't really supervise, but we had some Japanese workers, kind of more or less supervised them.

KL: What was their, what was their reaction to you as a U.S. citizen, as a Japanese American?

SS: They were very nice. It was a job for them. They didn't resent me because I was s Nisei from the U.S.

<Begin Segment 16>

KL: What were your encounters like with other Japanese, with Japanese people that you met, say, when you would go on, out for the weekend or take trips?

SS: They were all very nice. We didn't encounter any hostility, because I was from the States. This is right after the war. And, you know, the U.S. was the occupying force, a bit different than now.

KL: How was it different?

SS: Well, now they have anti-U.S. people in Japan, they don't like what we're doing here. But right after the war, they have no choice. I enjoyed my stay in Japan.

KL: How long were you there?

SS: About six years. I got to travel all over.

KL: Did you work arranging those field studies?

SS: No.

KL: Did you go on them?

SS: No. But there was one time when they were invited to the palace grounds for duck hunting, we were included in that. So there were some perks there.

KL: What were the palace grounds, what was your impression of that place?

SS: Well, actually, it was just one section where the ducks were. [Laughs]

KL: So kind of watery.

SS: But I didn't participate in the duck hunting, but we were there, you know. And I went to several weddings. One was the daughter of the Japanese principal of the school, (Mr. Wade) Naganuma... did you take Japanese? Naganuma readers.

KL: Tell us about them.

SS: Huh?

KL: Tell me about them.

SS: I mean, Mr. Naganuma was the head of the school, and he had these books that he wrote for the, Japanese books for the students. For not Japanese students, but for foreign students.

KL: Were they what you used or what anybody studying used?

SS: Well, I think they used, but I was able to get some of those, and I was able to learn some Japanese characters. I don't remember them now, but I did know a thousand at one time. [Laughs]

KL: Did you teach yourself using the books?

SS: Uh-huh, and also from the teachers who helped me, yes.

KL: And was one of the weddings you went to of the Naganuma family?

SS: His daughter.

KL: That's exciting, to get to meet that family, I would think.

SS: Uh-huh, something different. And also I got, I became friends with one of the ladies who used to come to the hotel where we were staying. She was a dressmaker, but really she was a... I don't know if she actually did the dressmaking or not, but she came and took the orders and measured everybody. But here she was the daughter of a former ambassador, he was the ambassador to Turkey, and she was his daughter. But here she had to go find something to do to make her own money, I guess. She wasn't a seamstress, but she was taking orders and measuring people.

KL: So you were there until about... did you leave in 1951?

SS: '53.

KL: Okay.

SS: (...) Somewhere around there.

KL: Did you see big changes in Japan over those six years?

SS: I did see it after I went back, after coming home.

KL: Or while you were there even.

SS: No. Yeah, in Tokyo, it was cleaned up during the time that I was there. Was it six or seven years that I was there? But Hiroshima, saw it right after the war, and I went back, was it 1985, had a big difference in Hiroshima. It's a completely new town, new city. But I was lucky to be able to go around Japan.

KL: Yeah, I don't think there's very good understanding in this country of just how... I don't think there's good understanding in any case about what a war is like, and what it's like to be in a place right after or during a war.

SS: People are desperate, you know.

KL: And I've heard that in the cities it was particularly, it was particularly hard to get food, to get...

SS: I had a friend who was in Japan during the war, and they couldn't get rice, they had to go out to the country to get rice and other things to eat.

KL: You've said people were kind or polite to you as a U.S., as a person from the U.S. What do you think their mood was in Tokyo, say? Were people kind because they were scared, or because they were glad that there were finally goods coming in and rebuilding happening? How would you classify people's thinking?

SS: I don't think they were scared, yeah. I don't know. To me they were just good. They didn't look upon me as an enemy. Maybe a savior, who knows? At least the war ended and the misery's slowly abating, you know. I never thought about those things until you asked me.

<Begin Segment 17>

KL: How did you decide to leave Japan?

SS: I felt that I was there long enough.

KL: Did you come back to Washington, D.C.?

SS: Yes, uh-huh. I was still under the embassy, so I went back to the Pentagon. And then I went home to New York, I was still under the payroll. Then when the time ended, they told me that I would no longer be on the payroll, so I went back to Washington, D.C. and got a job.

KL: Was that all pretty quick still in 1953?

SS: Yeah, uh-huh. I got a job in the Pentagon with the army. Again I was under army intelligence, G-2. And I decided, I got a job as a clerk in a section (...). And I decided I'm going to work in one job for five years, and then I'm going to move on. And I was pretty lucky doing that. From the section, I went up to division, and division I went up to the foreign liaison office. That office, oh, got a job as administrative (assistant in the) office of the general, G-2.

KL: I should probably know those terms, because my dad had a career in the air force.

SS: G-2 is Intelligence.

KL: What kind of projects were the different offices working on? Like you said it was a division and then a section? What was the division office doing?

SS: What can I say? I don't know. But anyway, you get, you do more research work, I think, in the section. Because I wanted to get a job as a research assistant somewhere, but I didn't have college education, so I didn't get the job. Although I was in Japan, I knew more about Japan than anybody else, but I couldn't get that job. So then I decided I'm going to night school and get myself a degree. But in the meantime, I figured five years at a job is long enough. From section I went to division, and division I went to an office, foreign liaison office, which dealt with the attache offices of different countries. And from there I got a job in the office of the assistant general, Assistant Chief of Staff for Intelligence, which is G-2.

KL: Were these offices interested in intelligence related to all countries, or did you have, did your office have a specialty in Japan?

SS: No, just... when I was working in the... the last office I was working there was during the Vietnam War, and then do you remember the Mi Lai Incident? One of the generals there sent over to Vietnam to investigate the Mi Lai Incident.

KL: And you were still, you were still working in that office when that happened?

SS: I was working as an administrative assistant there.

KL: What kind of tasks did you do in that work?

SS: Any letters for... any letters that come up to our office to be signed by the general or whoever, I would have to scan it, we'd make sure it's correct, typing and everything. I had to make sure it was correct before you went in for a signature.

KL: So you knew everything that was going on. [Laughs]

SS: Not everything.

KL: But you had a good, you had a window, sort of, on what was happening with military intelligence from the 1950s to the 1970s.

SS: When I was working there, yes. I wasn't working there all the time. I had to work myself up. In fact, our office was located... you remember when the Pentagon was bombed? I wasn't working there all the time, but at the time I was working G-2, our window looked out where the helipad, helicopter pad was, and that was the area that was (hit). So I know exactly where it was bombed. We used to look out the window and watch the Kennedy children getting off the helicopters when, either going or coming back from someplace. So it was kind of interesting.

KL: Yeah, yeah.

SS: And from there I went up to the chief of staff's office, the military historian's office for a short time. Then from there, I went to work for a general who started the all-volunteer army.

KL: Huh. Yeah, I want to hear a little more about all of those things. You mentioned the Mi Lai Incident. What do you recall about that investigation?

SS: Well, I don't recall anything. I don't remember reading anything about that. All I know is that the general... you know, it's classified. If it's highly classified it's done someplace else.

KL: It's different treatment, yeah. And you remember the Kennedy children.

SS: Yeah.

KL: What was it like working for the historian's office?

SS: Nothing. I mean, it was just a small office, just a general, his name was Collins. I don't remember anything.

KL: I would think that would be neat to get to do with your interest in history.

SS: Yeah. But military history. They had a general, his name was G.I. Forsythe, the (volunteer) army. From there I went to the chief of staff's office.

KL: When did that change happen? I'm sure it was affected dramatically by Vietnam

SS: I don't remember. You're talking about the draft?

KL: The change to the all-volunteer army.

SS: I don't remember the exact dates.

KL: I didn't mean to cut you off. You said from there you went...

SS: I went to... well, we were actually on the Chief of Staff's office. Actually, I went to the office of the Secretary of the Army, a cabinet officer. I went there as a secretary, but I did appointments, appointment secretary. So that was interesting.

KL: I'm sure it was.

<Begin Segment 18>

SS: I worked for about five Secretaries of the Army. One of them was, there were a couple former Congressmen, one was Callaway, (Howard A. 'Bo') Callaway, do you remember?

KL: I know the name, but...

SS: And I also...

KL: What do you recall about --

SS: Huh?

KL: What do you recall about that appointment or about (Rep.) Callaway? Or why does he stick out?

SS: Well, I remember all of them, but people won't know who the others are. Bo Callaway some people would know, right? And also Clifford Alexander, you don't know? He was the first Black Secretary of the Army (and Cabinet officer).

KL: And you worked for him?

SS: Huh?

KL: You were in that office when he became the Secretary of the Army?

SS: Uh-huh. And John Marsh, he was also a representative from, Congressman from West Virginia, I think.

KL: Did the office change a lot with different leadership?

SS: Not too much. So when Mr. Alexander was Secretary of the Army, he used to have, Dan Rather would come by, Barbara Walters would come by, athletes would come by. It was interesting meeting all those people.

KL: If, for people who won't have a chance to meet those men individually, can you just kind of describe them for us, give us a couple sentences about each one?

SS: Well, no. All I remember is they'd come by, were introduced and say hi and that's it. They'd go into the secretary's office and we don't see them again.

KL: But the secretaries themselves, did they, did some of them laugh a lot, or were very serious?

SS: Oh, no, they were nice. They were nice people. In fact, when Mr. Alexander was Secretary of the Army, his special assistant was Janet Hill. And Janet Hill was the mother of...

KL: Anita?

SS: No, no, basketball player.

KL: Oh.

SS: Grant Hill. I knew him as a little kid. [Laughs]

KL: Basketball players are little at some point in their life? [Laughs]

SS: And then there were some football players that used to come by, too, because he knew them and they would come by. In fact, Grant Hill's father was a football player, Calvin Hill, I think.

KL: Was it, what was it like to be a woman working in the Pentagon in the '50s and in the '60s. Did that change?

SS: I don't think so. A lot of women there.

KL: So you were just kind of one of the...

SS: Just one of them. It's not as easy to get into the Pentagon these days. At that time, you could get in.

KL: I used to visit there, that was my dad's last station in the air force, so I visited there in the late '80s, early '90s.

SS: It's hard to get in now. But I don't know anybody there, so I wouldn't go there anymore. All my peers are gone.

KL: Was it a, it was an easy place to be a woman?

SS: Yeah. Didn't have any problem.

KL: Where did you go to night school?

SS: Well, at first, they used to have classes in the building at night, and I started that way. And after I decided what I was going to do, I had to go out to the campus, George Washington University in town, so right after work I would go out to town. And I started out with just taking one course, and then two courses. Sometimes after working all day, I'd be so sleepy. [Laughs] It's hard to concentrate. But I managed. And during the winter when we'd work all day and go down to town, to classes, it was kind of dark, I had to take a bus to go home. It was getting kind of scary at one time. And then I started taking two courses, which meant that I was going home later. But one class I was taking was anthropology, I think, the professor was going the same way, so he gave me a ride. But after a while I just stopped taking two classes, just one. Too dangerous.

KL: Where did you live when you were working at the Pentagon?

SS: In Arlington, Virginia. And those, when I first started, we'd just go down a highway, and drivers would come by and pick us up if they knew you were going, if you tell them you wanted a ride. We used to do that. It wasn't scary, but now, you can't do that.

KL: When did you start taking classes, taking night classes? Was it in the 1960s or how old were you?

SS: I don't remember exactly. I think I started shortly after I started working there, '53, '54. And I finally got my AA degree after how many years, but I still kept going and I completed three years of college going to night school. And it got to the point where the higher up in the offices I got, through the Secretary of the Army, I had to work late, and it got too much for me. Work 'til about seven and then study, I can't go to classes, so I didn't finish.

KL: I need to sleep, too. Not everyone does.

SS: Yeah. So I didn't get my bachelor's degree. I had about three and a half years of regular college.

KL: Were you in just a general studies program or were you special --

SS: Initially I was, yeah, the first two years was general studies. And then I majored in history after that. Too ambitious for someone who's working full time.

KL: So when did you retire? Or did you have other jobs after the Pentagon?

SS: Well, it depends... I retired from the government. When did I retire? 1985 or so. '85. And I got credit for being in camp.

KL: Were you involved in those... you were in D.C., did you go to any of those Congressional hearings or watch them?

SS: Uh-uh, no.

<Begin Segment 19>

KL: How did you, were you aware that there was a redress movement happening?

SS: Oh, yes. Because my girlfriend worked for Mike Masaoka. And Mike's wife's brother was Norman Mineta, he was in congress. But after I retired from the government, I went, I was going to get a part-time job. I had a friend who was working for a trade association for distilled spirits, she was going to quit. She was working part time, and she was going to quit, so she said, "Why don't you come in for an interview?" So I went for an interview for a lawyer. And this lawyer happened to be a naval retiree. So I went for an interview and they said, "You're hired." So I said okay. So I was hired. Well, he knew where I was working, before, in the Secretary of the Army's office. So I got, they told me I'm on full time, I said, "Well, I just wanted a part-time job." So I said, "Okay, I can do that." [Laughs] So I worked full time. And I worked there for ten years for the lawyers.

KL: Wow.

SS: Then I retired.

KL: Did you go, you said you went back to Japan in the '80s also.

SS: I went there a couple of times, yes, '80s and '90s.

KL: What did your friend say who was in Masaoka's office about the hearings and about the redress movement?

SS: Who?

KL: You said you had a friend who worked for Mike Masaoka during the redress movement and the hearings. What did she tell you about them, or did she talk about...

SS: No, she didn't say anything. We just got whatever news through the papers.

KL: What was your thinking about...

SS: Reparations?

KL: About reparations.

SS: Initially I thought we shouldn't be asking for money. You know, they finally convinced us that this is one way in the States of acknowledging something that was wrong, monetary, isn't that the right word? So I said okay, if that's the case, I'll go with it.

KL: What did you think when you received yours, what was your feeling when you received your letter?

SS: It was a letter of apology. I was glad, and I gave half of it to JACL because they were, they were instrumental in getting that. Maybe I should have given them the whole thing.

KL: When did your mother pass on? When did she... she wasn't still alive then?

SS: Huh?

KL: She was not still living then, to get the letter or...

SS: No, she didn't get her reparation then. (...)

KL: That's okay. Do you have a sense of what she would have thought about the letter of apology, what her reaction --

SS: She would have been happy.

KL: Did she ever speak with you about Minidoka or being forced to leave your home afterwards?

SS: No.

KL: Did she work again when she was in...

SS: No. She took care of her grandchildren.

KL: Did she stay in New York?

SS: Uh-huh. After camp she went to New York and she stayed there and she died there.

KL: And did your sister stay, too, are those the children that your mother cared for?

SS: They what?

KL: Did your sister remain in New York also?

SS: Uh-huh.

[Interruption]

KL: You told us that you were hired by this lawyer who worked for the liquor (...) business, is that right?

SS: It's a trade association, liquor... it's a trade association, Distilled Spirits Council.

KL: Did you remain full time for that whole ten years?

SS: I did, I did.

KL: Until 1995?

SS: Until I quit. And I was still in touch with (...) the lawyer, the assistant, what do you call it, she's now the (head) lawyer. Because the lawyer who interviewed me died of cancer a couple years after. So his assistant became the lawyer, head lawyer. I'm still in touch with her.

KL: Was there any highlight of that work?

SS: No, not particularly. People ask me, "Did you get liquor?" No, we don't. [Laughs] It was just a trade association, the way the liquor companies are, members, they sent it to the office, but we don't get any.

<Begin Segment 20>

KL: So you were still in the D.C. area when the September 11th attacks happened in 2001.

SS: (Yes).

KL: Oh, you had left already? When did you leave?

SS: 2002.

KL: Okay. But you were still in D.C., though, then when the planes hit the Pentagon?

SS: When did it hit?

KL: 2001, am I right?

SS: Was it 2001?

KL: Yeah.

SS: Oh, I was still there then. Oh, my memory is fading. [Laughs]

KL: But everybody, I don't know, if you weren't out, you were home watching it.

SS: Oh, yeah. But --

KL: Go ahead.

SS: I was retired. But I was retired. Okay.

KL: Sometimes people who lived through both that and the Pearl Harbor attack say that there were some similarities. Did you feel similarly at all?

SS: Oh, yes. Because that's... I knew exactly were the Pentagon got hit, and I would have been killed if I was in there. But that was a long time ago that I was there. But after I retired, I did volunteer work. We used to go to the Arboretum.

KL: Oh, okay.

SS: Do you know where that is?

KL: Yeah, uh-huh.

SS: It's a nice place.

KL: It is, yeah.

SS: I did, worked pruning, planting, and working (in) a hothouse, transplanting. That was fun.

KL: Yeah, yeah.

SS: And I also volunteered at the National Japanese American Memorial Foundation when they were still trying to get money to pay for the, to build the... so I worked there at least once a week.

KL: Did you do fundraising?

SS: I helped with the office. The fundraising, it's just a letter that goes out. In a way, yeah. I kept the office files and tried to keep things in order.

KL: Uh-huh.

<Begin Segment 21>

KL: And then you came back to Oregon, or the Pacific Northwest, to Oregon, in 2002?

SS: 2002.

KL: What drew you to Oregon?

SS: Huh?

KL: What drew you to Oregon?

SS: My sister. Well, see, what happened was, they lived in New York, New York City. New York City was getting not as nice as it used to be, it was getting bad slowly. My brother-in-law was born in Portland, went to school in Portland, and he liked, he loved New York. I thought he was going to stay in New York forever, but he finally decided, no, he wants to come back. But his friend was going to a place called... I don't think it's important, but down in California where there's a retirement place, right outside a valley, I don't know what the name of that place is. He wanted to go there. And his daughter said, "You don't want to go there, it's hot there." There was a Hunt High School reunion in Seattle, so my sister and I came to that.

KL: For Minidoka? Was it a Minidoka high school reunion?

SS: Yes, in Seattle, Washington. Hunt High School reunion. So we went to that, and then we drove down to Portland. And my brother-in-law, (Kozo), wants to golf, so he (went) golfing. He said, "You two look around for a place." So my sister and I, his brother took us around to different places to look at. We decided we liked the one where we're (now) staying, in Vancouver, Fairway Village. We told him we liked the place there, so he went along with us and told me to sign up for it. They were still in the process of building, so we had to select a lot, and select what kind of house we wanted, which we did. That's how we got back here. So as soon as the house was ready, they drove all the way (across). And I was in Virginia, and they said, "Well, you're getting older, you'd better start coming back where family (is)," that's (why) I came back, too.

KL: You've seen a lot of the country and a lot of the world.

SS: Oh, I was able to travel a lot. That's another thing that was... can't say that's a good thing because of evacuation, but, you know, it got me out to the East Coast, and from there, I had opportunities to travel, and went to many, many countries.

KL: That was actually one of the questions I wanted to ask you was whether you thought that you had gained anything from being forced away from Seattle.

SS: I have to say yes. Because if I went back to Seattle, I might just still be stuck in Seattle and not be doing the things I have been doing. Maybe I was liberated in a way.

KL: What do you feel like you lost?

SS: Pardon?

KL: Because of being forced out of Seattle?

SS: Not much. Is that the wrong thing to say? [Laughs] I didn't have much to start with, and then I didn't have anything to go back to. At least when I went to New York, I had a job and I had a place to stay. That's important.

KL: Yeah. Have you... have there been other times in your life when political events or big world news, anything has reminded you of the time in 1942 of Japanese Americans being forced to leave their homes and put into camps? Do you see any... have you seen similar times in your life?

SS: No. But I've seen times when being Japanese was not a good thing, prejudice. In New York, right after the war in Europe, you know, guys came back, and there were two of us girls and I think my brother was there and his other friend was there in uniform. We were going down to Times Square on the train, a couple of sailors got on, and they were ready to start a fight with our, (...) the guys that were with us. Fortunately, some black men were there, and they kind of held them back and said, "Get out." So they helped us.

KL: And your brother was in his military uniform?

SS: My brother (was, and) the other person, yeah.

KL: The other guy (was).

SS: He was wounded badly over there, too, in fact. He's 100 percent disability. That really hurt, you know. We were scared.

KL: Do you remember what the other men said, the black men who were involved? Did they just...

SS: No, I don't, I don't remember. All I know is we just hurried out.

KL: Yeah, that would be very hurtful.

SS: There were other times when I would come across some kind of prejudice. At a train station, because we were not white, they would kind of shove us around.

KL: Also in New York?

SS: This was in New York, yeah.

KL: Do you think that the experience at Minidoka and with the assembly center, do you think it changed the way that you thought about other groups?

SS: Maybe. Like for example, the Arabs, what happened, actually it didn't happen, but they're talking about putting them in camps.

KL: What did you think about that?

SS: Shouldn't happen. It goes in the same thing we did, which is not right. Shouldn't happen to anybody.

KL: Did it change your thinking about other Japanese American people?

SS: [Shakes head].

KL: Did your experience make you think any differently about your heritage or other Japanese American people?

SS: No.

<Begin Segment 22>

KL: Are you involved in Japanese American cultural events or activities here in Portland, in Oregon?

SS: I volunteer at the Legacy Center, that's it.

KL: What is your work there?

SS: I... what do you call it? I work on the file, the research file. Now that everybody's older and dying, they're getting rid of all the things they've accumulated during the years, like various clippings, or anything to do with the Japanese or Japanese culture, they send them to the center. I have to go through those and decide --

KL: Is it fun?

SS: Sometimes, yes, it's very interesting. I have to go read the... decide whether something should go in the file or should be thrown out. That's what I do. It's interesting. I go once a week. I learn a lot.

KL: I think -- I always say this and I'm wrong -- but I think I just have one more question just as kind of a wrap up. This is going to go in the archives, and you're kind of speaking to the future with this recording, too, and I wonder if there's any advice or anything from your experience that you would want to share with people who might watch this in the future?

SS: Don't send anything that doesn't pertain to the Japanese or the evacuation. Sometimes we get too much, too many things, end up throwing some of them out.

KL: I've already thought of one other one, this always happens. We were talking a little bit during one of the breaks while you were out of the room about what you gain and what you lose by speaking about experiences like the evacuation, and by keeping quiet about things like the evacuation. Do you think it's important to speak about this time?

SS: Yes, I think so. I think it's interesting when I listen to other people talk about their experiences. And for me to talk about it, keep thinking about, start remembering that way back in my mind.

KL: So it helps you put part of your memory together.

SS: It helps me also, yes. I think so.

KL: Is there anything I left out that you wanted, that you came, you were thinking you wanted to talk about that I haven't asked?

SS: No, I don't think so. Maybe I talked too much.

KL: No. [Laughs] No, not at all.

SS: Some of it was kind of not interesting at all.

KL: This is gonna be number 361, I think, maybe, of Manzanar's oral histories that Manzanar has conducted, and they're just, I have only gotten to watch a small number of them since I started working here, and you're probably the tenth person maybe that I've gotten to interview. But people's experiences and their story, I mean, there's much in common, but there's also so much that is individual, and so I think it's, I really appreciate that you would share your stories and your memories.