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KL: Yeah, I wanted to hear also about the... I know you were real involved in gathering the Protestant congregation at Manzanar, and you talked some with Richard about the first Christmas Eve service, and you were talking also about how, kind of finding who would be interested in becoming part of the congregation. Were there other people, who else was involved in that effort to start a Protestant congregation?

MJT: Yes, there were a group of us, group that they had known each other before Manzanar, either at the First Methodist Church, or the church activities in the community in L.A. And when we found ourselves all together, well, the first thing that we thought that we needed to consider was to set up some kind of an opportunity for people to come together for worship and fellowship and to be together to find each other so we'd have the support that is necessary for that time. And so we did build a committee that was responsible for generally the Protestant Christian worship for Manzanar.

KL: Who were the other people?

MJT: Well, there was John Katayama, Taeko Yotsukura, and...

MT: There were a couple of others that I can't remember their names.

KL: What other Los Angeles churches did they come from?

MJT: Well, Taeko and John were members of the West L.A. church. We were quite active together.

KL: Were they about your age?

MJT: Yes.

MT: There were, I think, Herbert Nicholson, there were ministers who were active in some of the Japanese churches that came to Manzanar. I mean, they were allowed to come and help us, and so Herbert Nicholson was just one of the...

MJT: Yeah, he spoke, he was a Quaker missionary, spoke fluent Japanese.

KL: And he was kind of the senior pastor, acting senior pastor at West L.A., is that right?

MJT: Yes, he was. Prior to the war and after the war. And he did a lot during the time of transition and the time of the evacuation, Nicholson-sensei did a lot of traveling from L.A. to Manzanar bringing stuff in his truck to people who would write down, write down and ask him if he would bring this each time he came to Manzanar. And there's quite a bit written about Nicholson-sensei, both in the accounts of the evacuation and the accounts of the time when he was a friend, was really a friend.

KL: Did he help in other ways with establishing the church?

MJT: Yes. Well, he's been there... there's also another person, I can't remember his name, but he was a Baptist, the Japanese Baptist Church in downtown L.A.

KL: Was he incarcerated at Manzanar also?

MJT: Yes.

KT: And he was the minister at the time?

MJT: And his superintendent used to come. That is, the... in charge of the, overseeing the churches of which the Japanese Baptist Church was a member, and... Mayberry? Mayberry comes to mind. But he was very helpful, too, during this transition time. So yes, the churches were... although interestingly enough, when we left, the place of evacuation, the Japanese language school was where we were told to congregate, there were very few if any groups of people protesting or even being there. There was one group of women from the Methodist church, from the local Methodist church who was giving out coffee and doughnuts, but other than that, there was nobody there. The reason I ascertained that, the reason for that I gather is because at that time they didn't want to be associated with fear that they would be reported as being, aiding, quote, the "alien enemy," and so they didn't want that association established by coming down there and saying goodbye when things were not, or so tense. And so when the long line of red city buses with the evacuation in there began taking off, there were very few people that were present, other than the evacuees themselves. Whereas today you couldn't have one without a protest going in downtown, in the middle of Portland. Back then, that didn't occur. That's the reason I kind of think, that because they didn't want to have their written down associated with the Japanese movement.

KL: Did you coordinate with Catholic people or Buddhist people or anything in Manzanar to share ideas about...

MJT: Not until after they individually established their own community. And they all did, the Buddhists and the Catholics. They all more offered the ministry of the church and opportunity for worship and gathering in their individual... I would think that later on some of that came together for the common good of the whole camp, but I'm not sure about that.

KL: There's a copy of a sermon that a minister delivered, I think, on the last Sunday before his congregation was forced, the forced evacuation happened. And I wondered how, in Manzanar, how your experiences shaped the messages in church meetings or in your thinking. How do you think your Christianity affected your thinking about Manzanar and about the removal?

MJT: Well, of course the one aspect of that would have been the fact that the injustice and inequality that occurred. And the church recognizing that and at the same time giving hope, hope to the people that they live out their faith. And by living out their faith, that God would bring them through this dark time into the light, or a time of greater hope. Unless the churches at the same time had to call what they felt to be injust, to be injust, I would think that the last sermon would be a recognition of that, but at the same time, giving the people hope that there is a future for us someplace, and that we must stay together and we must live this hope and faith out until a new day comes. And I, for us, I don't know what others would say about us, but in a way, for us, that did happen. And that by the war and evacuation and so on, it did disperse the Japanese people to a larger acquaintance of people other than their own. Unfortunately in a very awkward and undemocratic way, but one of the results has been that more people got to know what a Japanese American was and is, and that they had the same goals and desire for life, and we need to help each other to attain them. So I hope that's one of the message.

KL: Were you involved in the work at Manzanar getting the Protestant congregation together also?

MT: Yes, by getting together with the young people that wanted to continue young people's meetings, gatherings, and choir, we had choir, and we all helped lead the -- those of us who were leaders -- helped with the worship services on Sunday.

KL: Kind of the other side of the question, I guess, that I asked Jack was whether Manzanar and the experience of having to leave your homes shaped your thinking about Christianity or about religion. How did affect your thinking? Go ahead.

MT: It did reinforce our beliefs, and I think Jack was already, had decided to go into ministry.

MJT: Oh yeah, when I went to Manzanar.

MT: So from, as time goes on, you make your goals and you go on to school to get your B.A., and he went on to seminary, and it's history from there. We served Caucasian churches, and we've had opportunities to serve Japanese churches, quote, "Japanese membership," but just our paths went so that we were called by Caucasian congregations to be the minister, so we continued that through his whole ministry.

<End Segment 10> - Copyright © 2012 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.