Densho Digital Archive - Sumiko Sakai Kozawa Interview

Densho Digital Archive
Manzanar National Historic Site Collection
Title: Sumiko Sakai Kozawa Interview
Narrator: Sumiko Sakai Kozawa
Interviewer: Richard Potashin
Location: Los Angeles, California
Date: May 10, 2011
Densho ID: denshovh-ksumiko-01

[Correct spelling of certain names, words and terms used in this interview have not been verified.]

<Begin Segment 1>

RP: This an oral history for the Manzanar National Historic Site. This afternoon we're talking with Sumi Kozawa, and Sumi lives at 2718 Hyperion Road in Los Angeles, California.

SK: Avenue.

RP: Avenue, sorry. Avenue. And our date of interview is May 10, 2011. Interviewer is Richard Potashin, videographer is Kirk Peterson, and we'll be talking with Sumi about some of her experiences at Manzanar War Relocation Center during World War II and also her experiences in the floral business for many years here in Los Angeles.

SK: Okay.

RP: Our interview will be archived in the Park's library. Also in attendance for that interview, this interview, is Dan and Shari, as well as her sister Miyo. Do we have permission to go ahead and conduct our interview, Sumi?

SK: Alright.

RP: Thank you very much for spending some time reminiscing about your stories. Where were you born and what year?

SK: I was born here, right in Los Angeles, on Tenth and Western Avenue, 1916, January 10th.

RP: And can you give us your name at birth?

SK: Sumiko Sakai, S-A-K-A-I.

RP: And you also had an English name?

SK: Lillian. They gave me -- this is the story that we used to, when we lived in Glendale, and doctor's wife, she had a, she was a big, well, she was a neighbor, really wonderful person, and they had this big orange orchard and her husband was a dentist. She's the one that gave us the American names. She gave me, so I was, being the oldest, she gave me Lillian, and then the other sisters, she gave her Pansy, and the other one, I think Miyo, she gave her Violet. And my brother's name was Daniel. They called him Dan.

RP: Not named after a flower.

SK: Yeah. [Laughs]

RP: And do you know if you were born at home?

SK: In those days it was all the midwife, yes.

<Begin Segment 2>

RP: Let's talk a little bit about your parents. Your father's name?

SK: Was Masao Sakai. They gave him a, Fred, F-R-E-D. Fred. Mrs. Scripps and Mrs. Spalding, they, I think Mrs. Spalding was the one that gave him the name Fred. 'Cause Fred's name was, his name was Masao, so they gave him Fred. They called him Fred.

RP: And can you share with us what you know about his family background in Japan?

SK: Well, the best, I was there after I graduated high school, for a couple years. I mean, I had to come back because the war... anyway, they had a hospital in Japan. My grandpa, which was my father's father, he had a hospital there. He was a well-known doctor in children, was a pediatric. It was in Nagoya, that's where he had a hospital. And matter of fact, I was there after, well, before the war, and it was a nice little hospital there. And then in the back, for the children and people to, when they're waiting, what do you call that, not to regale themselves but to have fun. There were little birds there, little cages of little monkeys, and there were cages of something else I forget. It was about six little cages there. It was little animals in there. And there was always, there was two people attending those cages, watching so everything was clean. He was very, my grandpa was very particular. But the little kids running around, they were the patient's family. But it was nice.

RP: And so your father sort of followed in your, his dad's footsteps.

SK: Yes, but then they wanted him to, the reason he came to America was he didn't want to marry this one girl that they want -- well, Japan, you know how it is. They want, one family wanted him to marry this, her family, doctor's daughter and so and so, but he didn't like the girl, so he came to America. He's the only one that came to America. [Laughs]

RP: Of his family.

SK: Of the family. They're all back in Japan. They're all well to do back there. I know he struggled here. [Laughs] Yeah.

RP: He wasn't the oldest son, was he?

SK: No, he was, no, he was not. He was, he must've been about the third from the bottom, I think. I think there were, there were five, I think. No, I don't know how many, must've been five or six brothers and sisters all together. Yeah, must've been six in the family. I'm not, I'm just guessing.

RP: And what do you remember most about your dad in terms of his personality and demeanor?

SK: My father? Well, he helped everybody. And I don't know what he was really doing. He graduated as a, being a medical doctor, but in those days, America, you have to have a license and all that. But he was helping the Indian village. There was a poor Indian village in San Diego and he used to go there, and I don't know what he did, just helping the people, I guess. He learned his English from the Spaldings, Mr. and Mrs. Albert Spalding in Point Loma. That's how he learned his English.

RP: Is that the Spaldings of sporting goods?

SK: Yes, yes. Matter of fact, I have a tennis racket and something with that, this old fashioned tennis racket somewhere, in a trunk somewhere.

RP: So did he work for them as a houseboy?

SK: Yeah, that's how he learned his English. And then over there -- course I've never been there -- well, as I remember, what do you call that, they were building fences around that, it's not a cave, they're all... I don't know how to say it, but anyway, they were making fences out of these woods, these branches of big woods. They were, well, it's like a cave but it's not a cave, anyway, he, I know he was trying to, well, he did help them, I think, just to, what would you call it... you have a hand in making, helping, holding the woods and this and that. There's a picture of it somewhere.

RP: For the Spaldings?

SK: No, this was at the big... yeah, that was when he was living at the Spaldings. It's over in Point Loma. That place must be still there, though. It looks like a cave, but it's not a cave. I always wanted to go back there to see that place again. One of these days I want to, before I go. [Laughs]

RP: Your mother, mother's name?

SK: My mother came with my grandmother. I don't know what year. It was the year -- but in those days everybody had to come through San Francisco.

RP: She was about sixteen?

SK: She was, yes, she was still young, I think around fifteen, sixteen, around there.

RP: And she came just with her grandmother?

SK: Grandpa was here before that, and then they're waiting for Grandpa to send the money back to Japan, but Grandpa, people borrow money, so Grandpa was a fellow that, "You want money? Okay, here it is. Here, you take it." So towards the end he didn't have any money, so Grandma waited and waited, so finally she came on her own with my mother and her brother, which was my uncle.

RP: And his name?

SK: My grandfather?

RP: The uncle?

SK: My uncle was Kawakami.

RP: His first name?

SK: They were, what's it called, Kiuye, K-I-U-Y-E.

<Begin Segment 3>

RP: And do you know how your mom and dad met?

SK: That, I don't know. You know, in those days there was just very few Japanese, and I guess Sundays they all kind of got together. I don't know.

RP: Did your mom or dad ever talk to you about some of the early, early hardships in adopting to, adjusting to a new country like America?

SK: No, we never did. Yeah, we never did. We just, Sundays, as I recall, when we were kids my father would want us to go to church Sunday. He didn't care what denomination, he just, we all went to church. So as I recall, it was an Episcopal church in San Diego. As I remember, that was the church we used to go to. 'Cause when we were kids it was, in those days it was Sunday school, so there's a special little, that was a clubhouse and that was Sunday school for little kids. So that's the way we started. Then in the other church, in the next block, was this, what they call the Episcopal church, so we went there. Every Sunday, that was our Sunday school.

RP: Where did your parents first settle?

SK: My parents, they were from, they were from Nagoya.

RP: Where, when they came to the United States, where did they first settle, what area?

SK: When they first settled here, that I don't know.

RP: Your father worked at the Grand Estate in Glendale?

SK: That was my uncle.

RP: Your uncle, okay.

SK: My uncle and Grandpa. See, they were wholesale flower growers. In the meantime, my father was going here and there looking for a place for him, I think for us to stay. But he used to come and help them. That's what it was.

KP: The uncle and grandfather, on what side of the family? I'm not quite following.

RP: The uncle and the father, the grandfather on the mother's side.

SK: My uncle was on my mother's side, yeah. Is that...

KP: And the grandfather?

RP: And the grandfather?

SK: Grandpa was my mother's father. See, my father's parents were all in Japan. Yeah, they had this hospital. They had a beautiful home there, big home.

RP: And your dad worked for the Scripps family.

SK: Yeah, that's how he learned his English. Yeah, he worked there as a houseboy. I think that's what they called 'em.

KP: And those might've been the La Jolla caves?

SK: La Jolla? That was in La Jolla, that was when he was helping the, he worked for the Scripps. Yeah, there used to be big caves there and we used to go in there. I think it's still there, maybe not, but he used to go in there at midnight. That was when he started living in San Diego. He bought a house on what they call the Pacific Beach in San Diego, so we had a house there. We lived in a house there.

<Begin Segment 4>

RP: What do you remember about growing up in that area?

SK: Pacific Beach? Well, across, on the same block but across the way, which I just found out later, that was a place where they had a bird sanctuary, that's what it was. Here, I didn't know. It used to have little turtles like that, and birds, and all kinds of stuff on that, it was the block next to us. All that, it was kind of a sandy pile there. Course, this is the bay over here, the Mission Bay. And I used to go out there and play, this and that, and one time there was this, just piles of these, they were nuts. I thought, "Gee, that's strange. A pile of nuts around here?" They were, there was no nut trees around here. So I picked one and two, I cracked it -- had to get a rock to crack it -- and it tasted like walnuts, only those little, they, I don't know what you call those little nuts like that. I thought, "Gee, that's nice." But I couldn't figure out where the nuts came from. But then later on, see little turtles about yea big, here and there, just... so I guess they were meant for that. Now, I didn't know that was a bird sanctuary. To me it was a mystery. I was still going through, I don't know, first grade, second grade, just a little kid. We used to have a dog, collie. His name was, and we used, he used to always come with me. And there was a, there's a sand pile, I mean when there's... this place, there's a place where you take the boat down, I guess. What do you call those long strips there? You can walk down and go onto your boat. He was swinging and wiggling, and all of a sudden I kind of fell into the water there, so I didn't know how to swim, so I was paddling along, paddling along. I thought, "Oh my gosh." And the dog, he's the one that pulled me out, though, 'Cause it was very shallow but here you're struggling. [Laughs] I said, and I was afraid to go home 'cause I was all wet, but I was just afraid to go home. Then I snuck in the house. [Laughs] And my mother says, "What happened?" So I had to tell her. She scolded me, alright. Yeah, she says I could've died, she says. 'Cause I didn't know how to swim. But the dog, he's the one that kind of pulled me out.

RP: You were kind of a tomboy growing up.

SK: I was, I was, when I was in San Diego. We also lived in San Diego. It was called the Mission Hills. One day my father bought us a little pony-like. I used to ride the pony just bareback when, all over the hills, just hanging onto the mane there. [Laughs] I had fun when I was small. And you know, the funny thing, up in the hill there, there were these quartz there, and I couldn't remember why these quartz were up there. I still have one somewhere there. I bought three, but I got, so I have one there somewhere. But I couldn't figure out -- you know when you're kids, I said, "Where do these quartz come from?" There's a pile of quartz here and there.

RP: And after, from San Diego, did the family move to Rossville?

SK: From San Diego, yes. From there, he was working for somebody there, I've forgotten who. But in those days I think he worked for one family or one place to another, different places.

RP: Moved around a lot.

SK: Yeah, you did. He did. And then from there, I don't know. And then finally, when we went to San Diego -- well, this was in San Diego. Yeah, he finally... what was it now? See, I'm getting things all kind of mixed up. This is San Diego, so he finally found this place for, this house was for sale, so he bought the house from another Japanese family. In the meantime, this other family bought a house further down. He had a nice little, what they call chicken ranch, and he showed my father how to raise chickens, and yeah, he raised chickens. Matter of fact, in those days we had an incubator, and then eggs, there's trays there, I've forgotten how many trays, but I used to help him. We'd put all the eggs in there and they laid on one side, and then the next day or so we'd put the other... and then when there're so many weeks or, I don't know, there's a little thing that you look to see if the little eggs are alive or not. If it's not, we put new ones in a little container. And that's what he used to hatch little baby chicks for. That was one of the things I learned that he taught me. And in those days it was, there was a company called the Swifton Company, and they used to come and buy those eggs that wasn't hatched. So I used to say, "What are they gonna do with that?" And I said, he said, "They're gonna use it for a bakery." I said, "Oh my goodness.

RP: Bakery?

SK: That's what they, that's what they told him. Yeah. He had the crates there, those eggs are okay. There must've been one, two, three, yeah, three chicken houses, very nice big ones. I used to get the fresh, fresh hay for the, to put into the thing, so it was nice and clean all the time. I think he had two Mexican fellows, boys, and they used to keep the place clean.

<Begin Segment 5>

RP: Your father died at a very young age, in an accident.

SK: Forty-two. In Japan, forty-two means death, that, it's just the way they say it, shijuuni, shini. Four, forty-two. So it's one of those things that people have, forty-two years, but that's the year that they, especially the men, they want to be careful. Forty-two means death. And that's, he died in February. He was going back to Japan in April, first time in ten years, so he had all the gifts all ready to go back. But he passed on in April, in February, right in front of Mrs. Scripps' home.

RP: What happened?

SK: This fellow was a black fellow, and I guess he was half drunk. The car was weaving going up the hill there, and I, my father's standing to cross the street 'cause he parked across the street. So somehow the car caught him and dragged him sixty foot. You know, to this day, for the longest day I should say, I saw that big pool of blood right there in front of... yeah. And then there's a hospital there in La Jolla -- I forgot what the name was -- anyway, I just hear them moaning. You know when you're dying, that, they were moaning. This was all broken. [Points to chin] You could see this, all broken here. His arm was broken when they had him there. I could still see that. I was only ten.

RP: Later on, you took his ashes back to Japan.

SK: After I finished high school. I said, no, I had to take him back there, 'cause he wanted to go back to Japan to see the family, so I did.

RP: What was that like for you, going to Japan?

SK: It was nice. I mean, for me, fun. It was my first trip out of the, into the world, you know? Here, I've been helping my mother all those years, then no time to go anywhere. And I didn't have no boyfriends or friends that you fool around with. No, I just helped out and that was it. So she sent me to Japan, nice second class ticket to Japan on this boat. [Laughs] And then coming home, I had a grand suite, brand new ship on this, called the Yawata Maru. My, one of my father's brothers was a, he was a, not a captain, a what do you call it. He was a... that works on the ships. Engineer, he was an engineer. Anyway, they gave me this grand suite, which I couldn't believe. All by myself, I thought, oh god, what a shame. [Laughs]

RP: You spent roughly two years in Japan?

SK: Yeah, and I was just beginning to learn Japanese and beginning to like Japan; it was easy, getting easier and easier. See, where my father stayed, where I stayed in Japan was with my father's youngest sister, and she taught all the Japanese etiquette to these nice upper class girls. And at first it was hard. You had to hold your head a certain way, hold your feet certain way. To me it was like, not exactly a prison, but you had to be very, very, it was really very formal. But that was the way she taught people. She taught these young girls from nice home in Tokyo and places like that, and they stayed there. They all stayed upstairs. They learned, in those days they had to make their own trousseau for their wedding, so many, their kimonos and all that. They had to learn how to sew, how to cook, and your tea and how to entertain, well, your tea ceremony. Those are all the things that you have to learn, how to serve dinner, where you hold your hands, where you... it was just too much for me, but then I used to watch. Some of the things, I said, oh goodness gracious. "I could never live like this," I said, thought to myself.

RP: How were you accepted in Japan as a Nisei, Japanese American?

SK: Well, my aunt, I mean, she was really nice. Yes. Except, well, I shouldn't say except, but then one of my father's brothers, yeah, he had one daughter and she went to school in England, and of course, she was speaking, she does speak English very well, but she was a little bit on the snobby side. And I asked her questions, but then she kind of, well, she didn't really snub me off, but she did her best. She was the only daughter. And her father looked exactly like my father, almost like twins. When I saw him after all those years, I thought, oh my god. I mean, my heart just went... I thought I could see a ghost. But I didn't tell that to my, I told that to my aunt, so she was surprised. Yeah, he looked exactly like my father. But he was an engineer of the big steamers, big liners, so that's how, I think he's the one that put me on this new, brand new Yawata Maru. That's the brand new steamer that came to, I think it was the first time it came into L.A.

KP: Would you, did your aunt in Japan, did she work at the imperial palace?

SK: One of my aunts, yes. Oh boy, she was, I mean, that's altogether another world. The language is altogether different. And then one of the emperor's, well, you don't call them wives, well anyway, ladies there, she wanted to see me 'cause I was my father's daughter, see, and being my aunt's, what do you call, relative, she wanted to see me. So one of these, before, okay, so before I went there, for me it was torture. My other aunt had to show me how to walk, how to hold your hands and how to, I mean, it's altogether a different world. You're not, you just, I don't know how to say it. Every minute you have to be on alert, like. And the way she, this aunt talked, her language altogether different. It's really that, well, I guess that's the way they talk in the imperial palace. I don't know. It's altogether, I didn't understand what you're saying half the time. All I knew is how to just, this other aunt that I stayed, she just, she said, "Just bow. Just bow, don't say nothing. Just bow." [Laughs] So, which I did.

RP: So you came back just before the war broke out.

SK: I came back, yes.

RP: Did you, did you travel much in Japan?

SK: Yes. They took me here and there, all different places. If my aunt, she couldn't accompany me most of the time, so my cousins, they took me here and there. It was nice. I went, yeah, all different places, as much as I could. In the meantime, I was trying to learn different things too, calligraphy and the koto, and the tea ceremony, that's, tea ceremony, flower arrangements.

RP: Full cultural immersion.

SK: Yes, yes, yes

RP: Were, in your travels and your time in Japan, did you, were you aware of the military situation?

SK: Yes, we had to be very careful. I know when, on the train, as we walked, there were girls from America here and they were speaking English, rattling on in English. And the Japanese there, soldiers sitting there, and all of a sudden he got up and he just slapped her left and right. Yes, 'cause they were talking English and I guess they didn't like that. That, I, and I just froze. I was sitting two seats back of the, this was the train, train there. And oh my goodness, I said, "Oh my, what's going on?" 'Cause I think they were speaking English, and they weren't doing, just speaking English. And this one Japanese, he just, he was a, what would you call these, one of the soldiers, you know these, when they first start, one of the young soldiers. He got up and he just got up there and he just slapped her left and right. That, I know. And from there on, I just kind of froze.

RP: Kept a low profile.

SK: Yeah. That's why my aunt used to dress me in kimono, not in American clothes. Yeah, everywhere I went, she used to always dress me in kimono.

RP: Tell us about how you ended up on the last boat.

SK: The last boat was like a dream. [Laughs] It was wonderful. They gave me the beautiful first class suite and they treated me like a queen. Yeah, it was really wonderful.

RP: Who identified, informed you that you needed to leave Japan?

SK: American, the, what is it, American, who is it, not the consular. The one that takes care of all these...

RP: Embassy?

SK: Embassy, I guess. Yeah, I guess you'd call it an embassy, I don't know.

RP: How did they get in touch with you? Did they...

SK: No, they told me I had to come home. I said, "Why?" I was just getting used to Japan, you know. And I said, "Why?" "No," he said, "you have to come home." He didn't tell me the war was coming on, but I guess, yeah, so I says alright. I had to come home, I have to come home now. That was it. So rush, rush, rush, got to get things ready to come home.

RP: You were on the last boat that came back to the United States.

SK: I came home, I was just lucky. Last ship that, it was the brand new Yawata Maru, and it came into L.A. And after that another ship came in, but it had to go back. They couldn't, it couldn't come into the port. So I was just lucky.

<Begin Segment 6>

RP: And you came back in June of 1941 and then six months later war broke out.

SK: Yeah. It was, before that people, yeah.

RP: How did you hear about the news of the attack on Pearl Harbor?

SK: Well, of course we were all shocked. We never knew war with Japan, and then being young, I thought, "Oh my gosh, war. Now what are we gonna do?" But we all kind of stood, the only thing was stick together. That was it, see. My mother and sisters and brother. In the meantime, my brother, of course, yeah, he was in the racing thing. He, my brother was well-known for that. He's the one that borrowed my friend's motorcycle. He only wanted to ride on the motorcycle. And that was when Forestland Drive just opened up, brand new, that's where he started on the motorcycle. And it must've been the time of -- I think it was around October, I'm not sure now -- that's when the sun was just hitting a certain way, and he hit the big pole there, and that's how he landed into the river there. That's how he died.

RP: Can you share with us the experience you had with the FBI after the war broke out?

SK: Yeah, they used to come all the time. They thought we had hidden, what do you call it, these, what do you call those hidden things here and there? I said, "Go look and see. We don't have nothing like that." Yeah. We had, not a cellar, but we, under the house we used to, in those days we used to make pickles. We had helpers, so my mother used to make Japanese pickles. You know the daikon, those big radishes and all that. And that, which that smells pretty bad too, but he said, "What's that?" And they said, "Dump that thing," and all that. Yeah, they used to do all of that. Nothing, we had nothing to hide.

RP: Miyo was mentioning that they took some Japanese swords that you brought back from Japan. Do you recall that?

SK: I didn't, no, I don't think, no, I didn't bring any swords back.

RP: Did you bring anything back from your trip?

SK: No, not, nothing like that. No, I bought a big bow and arrow for my brother, as a gift. I still have that up there. But swords, no, I didn't bring any swords back.

RP: Now, one of the FBI men that --

SK: He was one of my, our customers that we knew. But they turned altogether different when he's an FBI. [Laughs] I was so surprised. I said, he says, "Where do you live?" I says, "Take a look." I wasn't afraid of him. I didn't care what. And then I thought he might take me to jail or something, but I didn't care. If I had to go, I had to go.

RP: And when the notice came that you were gonna be excluded from the West Coast, from your home, you mentioned that a lot of things were stored at the ranch in...

SK: Yeah, that was our place. So we had to put everything, most of the things, we moved everything there.

RP: And there was a person that was supposed to be the caretaker.

SK: Yeah. He was Mr. Esser. He was, he was the old, what would you call it, the peasant from the country. He used to wear these, what do you call those, leghorns they call it, those leather ones, and always wear boots. And he, it's like he never took a bath. I mean, he had pigs, he had cows, he had sheep. He used to slaughter his own animals and he used to make head cheese and that blood cheese, whatever that thing is, bring it to my grandfather. Oh my goodness gracious. I said, "Grandpa, how can you eat this?" Well, he said, "Mr. Esser made it." So he tried it, but I know he couldn't eat it. You know head cheese, blood cheese? [Laughs] He was the one that was supposed to look after the ranch for, watch it. Well, he did alright, but then he was raising alfalfa. You know, alfalfa, when you raise alfalfa it just ruins the whole ground there. It takes up all the nutrients out, see. But anyway, that's the way he made his living. He thought we weren't coming back. And we had a lot of these beautiful knotty pine wood to build another room for my uncle. Anyway, he's taken all that, put it in his living room for his own place. That, I, when we came back we saw all that. That was all gone, but anyway, what can you do? Our garden, Japanese garden, was all butchered up. It was just slaughtered. They vandalized it. Yeah, that was bad too. Anyway, and then we had weeds growing all over the place. I mean, it was like... I don't know how to describe it, but we never lived like that before and we were just shocked. But after the war, my uncle and my, had another helper that came with us, and I was there, the three of us came first, out first, so we're doing the best we can cleaning that place, chopping down the weeds, cleaning up the place so we can come back to it. And we did that, I think we were around for, maybe a week we were out, cleaning up.

<Begin Segment 7>

RP: Let's talk about the garden that Mr. Kato built for your family there. Do you remember him constructing the garden there?

SK: Yes, he was a very quiet, very humble man. Mr., what's his name?

RP: Kato.

SK: Mr. Kato, yes, right.

RP: Did he have other people working with him on that garden?

SK: No, he did have some, one time, yeah, there was a little, I think, Mexican boy. He was helping him. He was carrying the heavy things. But Mr. Kato would always do everything himself, putting the rocks in place, and he's looking at the rocks and this rock, "Oh, this has to be over here. This has to be..." There's rocks, there's different, the faces of the rocks, he was, "This has to be faced so and so." Oh yes, he's very particular.

RP: You remember how long it took for him to build the garden?

SK: It took a long time. That, I know. In the meantime, I think my mother was, came to Los Feliz, lived in Los Feliz then, started a flower shop there. But it was a nice, beautiful garden.

RP: Right. You had a bridge there and a large pond.

SK: Yes, yes. Waterfall and all that. We had a beautiful pond with regular koi. You know, those carps. That was nice.

RP: Do you recall some of the plants or flowers that were planted in that garden?

SK: In the garden, gee, they planted all kinds, I know. I know there was, as I recall, there was, they called it saru suberi. Now it's called the salzberry, that's what it was. But you know, when you call saru suberi, it's like the monkey sliding down from the, on a limb. And my grandmother used to say, "Oh, that is saru suberi." And come to think of it, it's called salzberry, salzberry. [Laughs] And I thought, "Oh, that's when the monkey climbed down from the tree there." Yeah, we had that. We had, I know there was different kind of pine trees, Japanese pine they used to always clip down. And we had, oh god, different, which I've forgotten, but different kind of, they're all in the bonsai. They're all cut bonsai style. So my grandfather was out there every day, trimming this and trimming that to keep it down.

RP: So he maintained the...

SK: Yeah, he maintained. He loved to do that. My grandma too, she used to pick up -- you know the plants, you're not supposed to cut with a, you're just supposed to just pick it with your hands. So every day they were at that, and that was their enjoyment.

RP: Do you know how the initial connection was made with Mr. Kato to come do the garden? Was it one of your uncles?

SK: Somehow, I don't know, Mr. Kato and... I don't know. He used to come and, I don't know what this connection was. He used to come and ask for different things, or inquire about different things, and they kind of worked together.

KP: Richard, could you ask about property ownership on the ranch, who owned it, what their status was? I'm just curious.

RP: What was the status of the property ownership?

SK: The ownership, she had, she was in oil wells, Mr., no, that was Mrs... you know, I can't think of her name. I can see her face as well as daylight now. She was one of these women that had properties, but she had oil wells here and there, and then after her husband passed on, I don't know how many years -- and she had one son, he was a playboy, and that's where all her money started going, I think. That was the only son. He was a nice-looking fellow, though, but he's the one that squandered all her money. And finally toward the end, after many years -- we'd been there for many years -- she had to sell the ranch. She said she ran out of money, she had to sell the ranch, so she asked the family if they would buy the ranch. And I think she did give it us very, very reasonable, which I don't know how much.

KP: Whose name?

RP: Whose name was the ranch put in?

SK: In those days I don't know what it was, 'cause we're still young yet, and you had to be an American citizen.

RP: A Nisei.

SK: Yes.

RP: So was it, it might've been your name?

SK: Which I don't know. My grandparents and my mother, they're the one that did all the, and the uncle, the one that passed on, they're the one that did all the transactions, so I don't know. But she did have a wonderful lawyer, and he's the one that more or less took care of everything.

RP: Your mom did?

SK: No, no, this, Mrs. Leonard Haines, that's her name. Mrs. Leonard Haines.

RP: Okay.

SK: She's the one that owned that property.

KP: Haines Canyon.

SK: Haines.

RP: Is that...

KP: Yeah, that's part of the canyons over there, Haines Canyon.

SK: Is that right?

KP: Haines Canyon Boulevard.

SK: Is that so?

RP: Here I thought it was the heir to the underwear fortune. It wasn't Hanes underwear.

SK: Haines Canyon, huh?

KP: Haines Canyon Boulevard is right over there in Sun Valley.

SK: Well, we were, there's a place called Roscoe.

<Begin Segment 8>

RP: Were there other Japanese flower growers in that community?

SK: Over the hill, yes. There were the Endos and the Shishidos. Yeah, they were growing flowers.

RP: Were people specializing in a certain type of flower, or growing...

SK: Yeah, they did, but I don't know what they were, though. I know my uncle, on the fifty acres, they used half, twenty-five acres one year, and then they rotated. The rest, so the one that they used, they put a lot of that chicken manure and let the soil rest, and then they used the other one. I know that they did that. They used to put piles of that chicken manure on there, so they had to cultivate that underneath right away 'cause they did have a terrible smell.

RP: Did they work the land with horses or tractors?

SK: They had, as I recall it, they had four horses at the ranch. Those, they were, they're called mules. I think that's, yeah, they weren't the regular... yeah, they were, I guess they were mules. They're not donkeys. Yeah, because they'd pull the tractors. In those days it was, they did all that cultivating thing. And then later on, I think when the horses more or less went, he got this tractor, which is a new thing. In those, in the '20s, you see, you were '20s and '30s, those were really those horse days.

RP: And how many residences or buildings were on the ranch?

SK: Well, we had one bunkhouse, like, for the workers. I think there were five sections there. They lived there. And then of course, Grandpa, the large house that was on here somewhere, and then we had another house. And then a great big, what we called a barn, it was a packing house. We had that. That was a big one. That's where we did all the flower, nighttime pack.

RP: You picked the flowers, what, towards the late afternoon and then packed 'em at night?

SK: Well, after it was picked, then we had to bunch it up, and then in the morning, around one o'clock or so -- no, it was before that, it was about eleven o'clock in the morning -- they had to get up and put them all in the, wrap it up for the market, you see. And the market opened from, well, from eleven on, maybe earlier. I'm not sure. But my uncle used to go at midnight to the market.

RP: Did you go with him?

SK: In those days, no, but later on we did help deliver the flowers, wholesale, 'cause he had so many flowers. So here, I took my car and I used to help him deliver the flowers.

RP: Where did you deliver 'em to?

SK: The big wholesale flower market down in Los Angeles. It's on Seventh and Wall Street. It's still there, but right now it's mostly all Hispanic people. They're all taking over. Very few Japanese that's taken over the family, see. There's the Endo brothers, and the others -- I forgot their names, but I remember them -- he's still going strong on that.

RP: Endo?

SK: Endo. He specializes in ranunculus and he's got beautiful delphiniums, and he has sweet peas and some other things, but he, yeah, he's still going strong there.

RP: So what would you do on the farm there? Did you, you said you bunched up the flowers?

SK: We were just little kids. When the carnation time, well, had to disbud all those carnations so there's only one bud so they all will have nice flowers. And Grandma would be on one side of us -- they were big lines like that, and then they'd have one, two, about two strings across, and they're all in little squares so they will grow up straight, the flowers will, the plants will grow straight -- so Grandma would be one side of the line and I'll be, so we used to disbud all that so we'd have nice flowers. Yeah, we were just going to regular grammar school, but we all helped when we were kids. Then comes the ranunculi time, that's when you plant all those little ranunculi bulbs. And then the freesia times, and those little tiny bulbs, we used to help plant. And after that, they used to dig 'em all after, so I'll finish, we used to let it dry and then dig up all the bulbs. That was a job. We had a little fork like that, and then they'd dry it and then replant that again. We used to all help. That was all grade school, we all helped.

RP: After school, that's what you did.

SK: Yeah. That was our playtime, I guess. We had no time for playing around, see. But my grandpa, my grandma, she was, she was funny. [Laughs] She knew just how to work us. She used to tell us old Japanese fairytales and I used to love to listen to all that, so we used to, as she was talking, we'd be helping her doing all, digging up the bulbs and just budding the buds, plants, and all that. So work, for me, I'm just used to that. Just used to it.

RP: You showed me a picture earlier of a cloth over the flowers.

SK: Cheesecloth.

RP: The cheesecloth. And how did you make that?

SK: They used to buy bales of cheesecloth, and we had two Singer sewing machines -- I still have one up there [points upstairs], which is nice -- all by foot pedal, it was all foot pedal. So there's two machines going, and those big bales, my sister and I, we sewed those. It's a tent for those, for the flowers. We used to sew bales and bales of that. We used to have a race, so I had one of my sisters on the sewing machine on this side, sewing away, and then my sister'd be on this side and she'd be pulling it, so sometimes there'd be big stitches, like, without being sewed. It'd skip. [Laughs] So we used to have a race, who could finish first. Yeah.

RP: So the cheesecloth was like a shade cloth?

SK: Cheesecloth for the carnations and for the chrysanthemums. There'd be just bales of that, but we did it. That was our, the way we'd regale ourselves, have fun, sewing.

RP: Make a contest out of it.

SK: Yeah, yeah. See who could finish first. [Laughs]

RP: How did, did you propagate your own plants, or did you buy 'em from...

SK: Sometimes, they did most of the propagating those days. They collected the seeds and the bulbs, like the ranunculus and your freesias. We had to help dig up those bulbs. Oh my, those tiny little bulbs, take it up and dry it, then they'd replant them again. Those days, all work.

RP: You said that you had a bunkhouse for some of the workers?

SK: Yeah, it was one bunkhouse. Well, it was one big, yeah, I guess you'd call it a bunkhouse. It was one, well, it was really one big house there, but then they're all sectioned off in rooms. I think there were four, five. One had a kitchen.

RP: Did you have permanent help year round, or was it just seasonal work?

SK: No, we had some permanent. Yeah, some were seasonal, but some of the fellows, they came to work but they just couldn't take it, I guess. They weren't very good workers, so he used to get somebody else to do that. No, it's, some of the things, they were, well, you have to, especially weeding. That's something, another thing, the big, just rows and rows of weeds you got to pick. That's something else too.

RP: Did you use any sprays or chemicals for various --

SK: Yeah, they did, they did. But I don't know what kind. In those days it was, gee, I don't know. Something, I know they had a smell, an odor. I really don't know what it was. Yeah, they used to spray, this great big spray can. That thing was going, I think it was a gasoline tank and it was pumping away. In those days it was all gasoline tanks. Nothing electric in those days. Matter of fact, we, even at the country, in those days it was still little kerosene lamps and all that. Kerosene stoves, that's the way we used to do the cooking. Even in, at the packing house, it was those great big kerosene lamps. Those, there's another, one's sort of a kerosene lamp where you... well, that used to give out lots of bright light. I don't know what it was called. And the other, in the house we had the regular lamps with the kerosene. Every, after school we had to come home, fill up all the, those lamps, clean the chimney, those little things, 'cause they get that black soot. We had to clean, that was our job too.

<Begin Segment 9>

RP: How did you feel about being removed from your homes and shipped to Manzanar? Did you have any strong emotions about --

SK: Well, we didn't know what to do, so we just went along with what they told us to do. Yeah, and I said, well, I don't know, we just, almost like the whole thing, it was like a standstill, for me it was. I said, "Okay, we're gonna be shipped there, so we just have to go over there. We can't say no. We can't go." So we just, like cattle going along, you know? Being pushed. To me, it felt like that. I thought, "Think of those poor cattle being slaughtered and they're all pushed like that. Well, we're not gonna be slaughtered, but then okay, we're gonna go." So that's the way...

RP: Do you remember what you took with you to Manzanar?

SK: All we could take was just a suitcase. We couldn't, or a couple suitcases, whatever we can carry in our hands. And the best we could, we just stuffed everything into where and that was about it. And I said, "Oh god, take the soap. We have to take the soap." So I know I had a lot of soap in my suitcase. [Laughs]

RP: Soap?

SK: Soap. Yeah, I think I had more soap than clothing, I don't know. [Laughs]

RP: What was your first impression of Manzanar when you got there?

SK: My first impression there, I says, "Oh, goodness gracious." I said, "What are we coming into?" You know that, what do you call these places that they put us in? They still had those holes, those -- was it the WRA that, or something like that, they were in charge at first or something like that -- anyway, later on I heard that, well, I forgot what that was. Anyway, there were holes here and there, so when the wind blew and dust coming in, we had sand, or that, sand, so much on the floor. It was just terrible. And the bed, that was, those army beds. And then we got bitten all over. It was all that -- my mother was so angry -- it was all those bed bugs, or some sort of bugs. We just got bitten all over. By that time we were just like that. It was terrible. Straw mattress, god, I thought that was horrible. And all they gave us was one of those kerosene little stoves. Here we didn't know kerosene, so we had that thing filled up, before morning it was all gone. Here we're just freezing cold. Yeah. So my mother'd go back there to the headquarters there, and she was giving them hell. [Laughs] "Bedbugs," she said, "We got bitten all over." Yeah, that was bad. I didn't know what bedbugs were.

RP: You never...

SK: No, no. I know she had to put some sort of alcohol, it starts swelling up. You get... but you itch, itch. Oh god, that was something else.

<Begin Segment 10>

RP: So you first worked at, in a library at Manzanar?

SK: I worked in the library, yeah.

RP: Did you --

SK: Cataloging, that wasn't my type of, cup of tea. And typewriter, I'm not very good at that, but all that. No, I said, "This isn't for me." And finally they asked me, 'cause I would help the, I don't know, somehow, in Burbank there's a Dr. Thompson and Dr. Leggett and Dr., the other doctor there, and I said, "Gee, being a lab, working in a lab should be nice." So I went up there, and they says, and then that's, well, with little experience -- I didn't have much experience; all I knew is what I learned in the school, see -- and then, so anyway, this one fellow, he taught me what to do. He's the one that showed me. I even forgot his name, but he's the one that started me on this, and that I enjoyed.

RP: What did you do?

SK: Well, in the lab, under the microscope, in those days everything was under microscope, see. And then there was, one time there was a bunch of these soldiers, and they had, we had to take their Wassermanns, their, for VD and all that. Then under the microscope we had to test, see if there's any VD and all that, and we did all that. All that, the microscopic things, and I used to get, take care of patients, put the tourniquet on and take the blood out and see if they're, some had tuberculosis. One had this terrible disease... what do you call it? That young fellow died in a couple days, though. He had this most horrible high fever. Meningitis, spinal meningitis, and that's really contagious, you know. Yeah, I felt so sorry. He was banging his head against the headboard there, all bloody back there. And poor thing, had to take his blood. Somehow I was very good. I'm not sick, but in taking the blood, I never gave a hematoma. Some of the blood veins are down so deep you can't, but you put the tourniquet on and feel it, you can tell where the vein is, and I used to, I was pretty, I shouldn't say that, but I was pretty good at that. And in the middle of the night they used to, with the ambulance, rickety old ambulance, they used to pick me up. That was one of these things that I had, it was an emergency, so okay. And then a couple time, three times I think, it was an emergency and just happened I had the blood that, to help this patient, so I gave blood three times over there. After that, they gave me a strong, come to think of it, it was like Johnny Walker whiskey, and a big steak for me to eat after that. [Laughs]

KP: That was in Burbank?

SK: I was up in Manzanar, in the hospital.

RP: Whiskey and steak, huh?

SK: Pardon?

RP: A steak and whiskey.

SK: Yeah, nice steak, gave me a shot of whiskey.

RP: I could get used to that.

SK: Yeah. [Laughs]

[Interruption]

RP: This is tape two of a continuing interview with Sumi Kozawa, and Sumi, we were just talking about your, some of your experiences at the hospital. It sounds like you got some training, but you learned on the job.

SK: Yes. It was very interesting. I had a good teacher there too. You know, I've forgotten his name. Then there was a Japanese fellow, he was also a lab tech and he helped me a lot too.

RP: Now, did you have much contact with some of the doctors at the hospital?

SK: You mean...

RP: Like Dr. Goto or Dr. Little?

SK: No, not especially. No. When you say contact, I don't know. No.

RP: Did you have conversations with them?

SK: Well, not too much. Yeah, I was really busy, busy doing my work, see.

RP: Were there other, how many lab techs do you remember there being?

SK: There was only three.

RP: Three of you.

SK: Three, yeah.

RP: Who were the other two folks? Do you know?

SK: Well, there's a fellow and then another, she did most of the cleaning and all that, and she was learning too. That was the only three of us. Then the big boss, he was awfully nice. He, I forgot his name. And then later on we had two other women technicians that came. One was, she was from the army. Boy, she was a big woman, real stern, but she was a nice person, though, nice person.

RP: Was she the head of the nurses?

SK: No, she was, no, not the nurses. The head of the nurses was Nurse Akita.

RP: Akita.

SK: Yeah, she was one of the head nurses here at St. Lebanon, when it was right here on Sunset Boulevard. Yeah, she was a Japanese nurse, and boy, she was strict, but she was a good nurse, real fine. She's the one that took care of all that autoclaving and all that. And then at first we were doing all the raw, live sputum, tuberculosis and all that, under the microscope, and later on it had to be autoclaved to kill the bugs, then we could do it. But before that we were doing all the live thing under that microscope.

RP: Really? Can you explain the process of autoclaving?

SK: That's the, autoclaving was sterilizing, to kill the bugs. I mean, see, they had to do all that, I think, what was it, not the material but when they used surgery and all that, they had to... what'd they call that? Sanitize all that, the gowns and all, before the doctors could do it. They call it autoclave. That's... so after they were finished doing all their cleaning and all that, they'll... there's a word for that. Anyway, and it was okay to do all the sputums and all that. Yeah, kill the bugs. Before we were doing the, under the microscope we were playing with the real live ones. The live ones, they're all wiggling around, you know?

<Begin Segment 11>

RP: Were you called to the hospital on the night that the...

SK: They used to come in the ambulance, 'cause there was no telephone or anything. Middle of the night many times, they'd knock at the door, emergency so they had to, so, "Alright." So right away, had to go.

RP: Do you remember the night that the riot broke out?

SK: Oh yes, yes, yes. At that time, yeah, I was at the hospital then. We just kept very quiet, I know. I know there were several that they brought into the hospital. The doctor was there, but we didn't do any lab work. We just sat there.

RP: Do you remember a gentleman that was stuck under a bed in the hospital, was hid under a bed? His name was Fred Tayama and he was --

SK: I heard.

RP: -- he was beaten up and then he was brought to the hospital, and then a group came in to try to find him and finish him off.

SK: Yeah, his name was Tayama, I think. Yeah, I heard about that. All those incidents that happened, they called him... not the Red. There's a name for people like that, which I forgot now.

RP: Inu?

SK: Well yeah, inu, it means dog. Yeah, he was one of these informers, I think. That's what they called inu, informers. All that comes to me now. I'd forgotten all that. I wanted to just forget everything in Manzanar. [Laughs] I didn't like Manzanar. I hated Manzanar. That's why I just want to get everything out of my head. I just want to forget the whole thing.

<Begin Segment 12>

RP: Were, working at the hospital, were you short on certain things, supplies?

SK: I think we were. I think we were, but I don't know what. Yeah, many things, I know we, many things, we were. And many things disappeared too.

RP: Like what do you recall?

SK: I don't know, there was, one time there was something that this, he was one of the, our boss, he said, "Oh goodness, that's gone again." He was saying, "That's gone again." So I don't know what it was, but, and he used to, of course he had to lock everything up there, but somehow things did disappear, though, from the lab. I know one time we had, we had a bunch of soldiers. We had to get their Wassermanns, so we did all that. That was interesting, though.

RP: Soldiers, were those the military police?

SK: Yeah, military -- no, they were regular soldiers, army soldiers. I didn't know why they came to Manzanar to get all their shots or their blood taken, but we did. That must've been, goodness, quite a few then.

RP: We talked earlier about Dr. Togasaki.

SK: Yeah, Dr. Togasaki.

RP: What do you recall about her?

SK: She was, she's, must've been a good doctor, but she didn't stay very long. But people were all a little bit afraid of her, I think. Somehow they were. Yeah, it's the way she... she was a real army doctor, I tell you. [Laughs] Yeah, she was, with boots on. I think her heart could be very... but she used to frighten people.

<Begin Segment 13>

RP: Now, you were involved with the glee club for a while at Manzanar.

SK: Mr. Frizzell. I wanted to attend more of that, but I just couldn't. I loved that. It was really nice. But I loved that singing. Matter of fact, he's told me I had one of the high pitched voice, way up there. He said, "Oh, you're up so many..." I don't know what it was, but he told me. But I was too busy with this and that, so I didn't keep it up. Yeah, I used to love singing. It was nice. That was the only enjoyment I think I really had up there.

RP: Is the singing.

SK: It was nice. And then there were movies and all that, but I had no time for all that, movies. I know my sister did. She used to love to go.

RP: Dances?

SK: She did. I don't know how to dance, and to this day, I never did dance. No time for that. I had my mother, my grandpa, and I had a sister who was handicapped, see, so I was just kept busy.

RP: Between the hospital and taking care of the family.

SK: Yeah. My grandpa, he was something else, but yeah, he was a nice grandpa. He took care of my grandmother. They, Dr. Thompson in Burbank, he was awfully nice to us and he put them in his, in the basement, for them to stay. And somehow the army came in, you see, told the doctor that there was enemy aliens here, so he comes, the army sends a doctor, so they come with how many army, with the guns and everything, into the basement, and then they took them away. They took 'em to this one place somewhere in, Pasadena somewhere. I don't know where they took 'em, but then I heard that that's where they landed up in, one of these rest homes or whatever. And my grandpa used to go, he was there too, but he says they put Grandma -- 'cause Grandma was dying -- and he said they had Grandma out in the hallway with no water, so he used to go get, gave her water. And nurses said, "No, you can't go there 'cause this is a women's territory. You have to go back." Grandpa didn't care. He just went, ran and gave her some water and all that. Yeah, Grandma, she was being a diabetic and all that. When they brought her, on the last day when they brought her to camp -- Father Lavery was the one that brought her into camp.

RP: Father Lavery did? He went down and picked her up?

SK: Yeah, he, in some way he, yeah, and he brought my grandmother out to where she died, to Manzanar.

RP: And did she die in the room or at the hospital?

SK: Yes, she died in the room in Manzanar. They just brought her in and during the night, that's when she passed on. In the meantime, Nurse Akita was, rolled her over, and great big bedsores like this, all over her back and her hind end. The nurse says, "Oh my god, look at this. Look at this." So they made this great big, like a big donut thing, yeah, so she'd be comfortable. And she opened her eyes once and then that was it. Then she just, just petered out.

RP: Did you have a funeral for her in the camp?

SK: Yes, yes, we did. We did.

RP: Was she cremated?

SK: She was cremated, and her ashes, I have her, we have her buried over here in Evergreen Cemetery. That's where my grandpa and grandma and my uncle... it's one of these old cemeteries. That's been there for years, I think.

RP: Did you ever, you said that you really hated to be in Manzanar. Did you consider leaving the camp, relocating or...

SK: During that time?

RP: During that time.

SK: No, during that time I says, "Where will I go?" Well, we had a place to go back at the ranch, yeah, and that was it.

RP: Just waited.

SK: I just waited, that's all. So we were there for three years. I was happy to get out, I tell you. Yeah, I was happy to get out. Before that, my uncle and one of the helpers, the three of us came out first to look at the place. And as I told you, there were weeds up yea high [lifts arm over head], so we were trying to clean up the place so we can come home and get the place kind of straightened out, which we did. I think we were out for maybe three days or so.

RP: That was you and your uncle and Mr. --

SK: And we had a helper.

RP: Mr. Nagami?

SK: Yeah, that's right, Mr. Nagami. How did you, did I say that before? It's written down?

RP: You spilled the beans.

SK: [Laughs] Mr. Nagami, yeah.

<Begin Segment 14>

RP: Just going back to Manzanar, do you recall the "loyalty questionnaire" that you would've had to answer?

SK: The "loyalty questions"? There were all kind of --

RP: There were two, there were two questions there, twenty-seven and twenty-eight.

SK: What was it?

RP: Forswearing allegiance to the emperor of Japan, swearing allegiance to...

SK: Yeah, that was "no-no" for me, see. Yeah, being an American citizen, no. Yeah. I mean, I had nothing to do with Japan. Of course, some of my relatives, uncles and, they were back there, but no. I had no, well, if you can call going back to Japan, I couldn't live the way in Japan. I was there in, before the war, but that, to me that's hard living. And not only that, the way my aunt, they're all in the uppity up class, I could never live like that. I had to be free. They way you hold your hands, the way you walk, everything was criticized at first. "No, you got to learn all the etiquette." No, that was just too much for me. I had to be, I had to be free. [Laughs] I'm a tomboy. Yeah, I couldn't be tied down like that. Not only that, Japan, the ladies carry all the heavy things, the man's walking in front. That's not for me either. [Laughs]

RP: Right, so just the gender roles too.

SK: Yeah, I see my cousin that comes from Japan, here the poor wife, she carries all the heavy things, here he's walking up front like this. Oh jeez. [Laughs]

RP: So did you ever go back to Japan and visit again?

SK: No, I wanted to, but I just couldn't, with my mother and then... I just couldn't. They called me from Japan many times, all used to call to see how things were, but they wanted me to come back again just to see, but I never did. I never had the chance. I had to work, support the family here.

RP: Okay.

<Begin Segment 15>

RP: Can you grab that picture right there? You want to hold it up for the camera? [SK holds up photo] Just like that, yeah. Now tell us who's in that picture.

SK: Me and, Frank and me, Frank and I.

RP: Tell us about Frank.

SK: Actually, he was, after the war, I mean before the war, he joined the, he, what was it called, in the navy. You know that... it's like the Coast Guard, I think. And they don't take Japanese during the war, but being a Hawaiian born, I guess that's how they, he got in there. And he became, of course you start from the bottom, and he, right away he became a chief butcher there, so they gave him this two stripes thing or one stripe thing, whatever you call it.

KP: You can put that down now.

RP: So he...

SK: And he was good, the head, the purser and the captain, and he had, the three of them used to all go around together. Yeah, and they all thought he was, well, he was born in Hawaii, so they thought he was a Hawaiian. But then during the war he had a lot of these Japanese prisoners taken, so he spoke to them. "You work or you don't get fed." And these Japanese high, these big shots, at first they refused to do that, so Frank says, "Okay, no, if you're not gonna work, no food." And finally they realized, then he was really nice to them. He talked to them. He was nice talking to them anyway, but after they start working, man, he'd bring them apples and oranges, and they never had things like that before in Japan. So toward the end, they gave him cards. "After the war, you come to my house." And, "You come to my house." Frank says, "These poor fellows, there is no more home 'cause they're all bombed." They had, but I guess they didn't realize that. But he was nice to them later on. Later on they did everything, they did all the work, what they had to do.

KP: So Frank served in the regular navy in World War II? Am I hearing this right?

SK: What was that?

RP: He served in the regular navy during World War II?

SK: Yeah. I think he was one of them, what they call the Coast Guard, transporting soldiers here and taking soldiers or something like that.

RP: And so --

SK: Not in a battle thing. Course there were... but they used to go to different islands, different places, so he traveled here and there, so he said, "I don't want to travel anymore," when he came home.

RP: So he came to, did he come to visit you at Manzanar, when that picture was taken?

SK: We were in Manzanar.

RP: Did he come there, he must've come during the war.

SK: Yeah, he came with us. Yeah, he helped us. He helped Grandpa. He was really good to old people like Grandpa and all that. Yeah, he really took good care of Grandpa.

RP: So are you saying that he went in with you, to Manzanar?

SK: Yes, yes.

RP: So was he discharged from the navy before that time?

SK: No, after, this is after Manzanar, then he went into the navy.

RP: After Manzanar.

SK: After that, yeah, after that, after we came home he joined the navy.

RP: So you knew him, did you know him before you went to Manzanar?

SK: Oh yes.

RP: And was he, was he your boyfriend in camp?

SK: No, he was just nobody. But he used to, he was nobody. [Laughs] I mean, but he did help Grandpa. Once he was in, he did help him a lot. Yeah, so that was one thing that was nice. He used to help the other people, older people. In those things he was very good, helping people.

<Begin Segment 16>

RP: So you eventually established, reestablished the floral shop here.

SK: Yeah, we came back to floral... in Los Feliz.

RP: Right. And then you moved over here.

SK: Then we moved here 'cause they were building a big apartments, two high rise apartments, so we had to move. They only gave us a couple, yeah, only, not even two months, I think, we had to get out of there. That was something. So we did the best we could. In the meantime, we went and looked for a place to, so we went looking around here and this, Hyperion was, very few cars were going here. It's just like still, like a country around here. And I said, well, we had to find a place to live, and then I said, so I came in and asked Mrs. Brigham, 'cause she lost her husband, and everything was just, it was just empty in here. She had two, no, she had three Japanese businessmen living here, and they were living upstairs while they were here in Los Angeles, and then this room was empty, then there was a table here and then some chairs. And she says they used to play Japanese game, whatever that card game was, here. That, she used to tell me that. So I think they used to work daytime, and nighttime they stayed here, and they were here for not too long, I know. It's a whole house. It was empty by then. She wasn't a very good housekeeper, I know that. [Laughs] But she was the nicest person. And later on she went to the Running Springs. It's, Running Springs is in Big Bear. Yeah, she moved up there.

RP: So how long did you operate the florist shop here?

SK: My mother started in 1929 on Los Feliz, and those are Depression years. I know one time there's only one or two customers that came, and that kept on for some, I don't know how many weeks. And the first big sales was Thanksgiving Day, and that's when people start coming, after that. Yeah, that was the first time I, Grandma said, "Okay, now we're gonna be okay," she says. From there on we just, we'll get, I was still going to junior high school, see, but yeah, we helped change the water. I mean, it was a job. We did it. And then later on my mother had to have a designer to design flowers, make things, 'cause my mother was not a good designer. So she found somebody, a nice man. He was a good designer.

<Begin Segment 17>

RP: Sumi, tell us about your clientele at the flower shop during the '30s.

SK: We had some beautiful clients, customers, I tell you. In the old days, that was in '29, '30s, you know Greta Garbo? She used to come in a big, her beautiful car. Where she sat was closed and where the chauffeur sat is opened, so I don't know what kind of car it was. She used to buy armfuls of sweet peas. We used to grow sweet peas there in Los Feliz, and she loved sweet peas, so every week, weekend, she used to buy whole armful of sweet peas. She used to come in herself. In those days she wore slacks and just a sweater over her [touches shoulders], and she used to carry the whole, come in by herself and carry the whole sweet pea out to the car by herself. Yeah, she was a wonderful person, a beautiful person, beautiful voice.

RP: How about Mae?

SK: Mae West is another. She was, she lived not too far, and she always sat in, up front with her chauffeur with a little tiny monkey on her shoulder here. And her sister sat in the back; she used to come in and buy the flowers. Mae West in the seat, she used to, always waved at us. She was really nice. We had a lot of nice customers. And also the director, Cecil DeMille, 'cause he lived right there in Los Feliz, and then he used to --

RP: What kind of flowers did he like?

SK: What I like?

RP: No, what, what kind of flowers did Cecil B. DeMille like?

SK: He like simple flowers, very simple flowers, not exotic flowers. But he used to come in, see how we were, just to chat. Yeah, he was nice. I don't know what kind of flower he used to buy, just a simple bunch of flowers. That made him happy. Maybe just came to see how we were. He had a Japanese fellow, he used to work as a, like a houseboy for him for the longest time, and I know his wife used to teach Japanese language school. Yeah, that was out in San Fernando Valley. So we used to go to Japanese language, Japanese school every Saturday. That was our... but you know, I learned, I've forgotten most of my, I just forgot. I even forgot how to speak Japanese, more or less. In Japan, of course we had to speak it in a very elite way. I've forgotten all of that. It's altogether different. And up in the imperial palace it's worse yet. I mean, I shouldn't say that, but it's very difficult. It's altogether a different type of language. You do a lot of bowing. That's what I did. [Laughs]

RP: Who else, Jim Carrey was a client of yours.

SK: Yes, he lived up in the high rise, and his wife Alba, she was, she's a beautiful girl, young, she must've been about twenty years younger, but real cute, real vivacious person. She's an artist. Yeah, he used to come. He used to come almost every week, getting flowers for the apartment there. I haven't seen him lately, but maybe he's still, I hope he's alright. I've known him since Los Feliz. He was a young, handsome fellow then. Yeah. And then there's that... what's his name?

RP: Bud Cort?

SK: Bud Cort, yeah. He used to live up here with the, one of the Marx brothers, right up, several blocks up here. I met him at, across the street in a grocery, in this store, and he said he bought a home up here on, near Astro's Restaurant, "So I want you to come up and see me sometime," he says. I said, "Alright. Thank you." [Laughs]

RP: The other one you mentioned earlier was Mickey Rooney.

SK: Oh yeah. He was just a little boy then. And then Mrs. Marshall, they had a liquor shop and she had a bar there, right on Vermont, and then also, gosh, they were the nicest people, though. Every Sunday, Mickey Rooney used to bring us gallons of ice cream or a big cake or something, Mrs. Marshall, Mae Marshall used to tell him to bring it to us. He was just a little kid. He says, "Hi, hi." Mickey Rooney, it's the same Mickey Rooney. He was such a nice guy, though, real, lot of fun. Yeah, yeah. [Laughs]

RP: Joan Fontaine?

SK: Yes, Dillon Fontaine, Olivia de Havilland was very, very nice. Joan Fontaine was a little bit, I didn't see too much of her, but Olivia de Havilland -- that's the sisters, you know -- they lived right up here in Los Feliz and she was a really, what would you call her, real friendly person. She used to get little flowers, and many times... when she bought her first car, it was one of these Ford, with the wood panel like a little station wagon, the old cars, that was her first car. It was a used car she bought. She was so proud of that car. She showed me the car. She says, "That's my car, my first car." And then when she, that Gone With the Wind, when she made that, then she came one day with her first mink coat. She wore that and she showed me her mink coat. [Laughs] She was the cutest person, though. She used to show me all that, and we were, we became really good, real close friends like. She used to tell me a lot of funny things, like what was going on in the studio. She was really a, really a, I don't know what it was, but she's, I just loved her. She was so nice. She'd always see how we were and if everything was okay. And then when Gone With the Wind, we sent her this, I think three dozen long stem roses, and she says that was the happiest moment of her life. She said she was so happy. Then she sent us a great big box, that must've been a good four pounds of chocolate -- we don't see those big chocolates anymore -- for, from I. Magnin Store. That was a big surprise. That was a big... yeah. As a thank you, she gave us, she sent that to us. Well, she was really a sweet person.

Yeah, we used to have a lot of people. The other one was... oh god, there were so many people. Remember that person that wrote the music, "I Love You Truly"? She wrote that story, or she did something. 'Cause she's over in Forestland now, but she used to come in a big black limousine, and she used to sit in the back, always with a young fellow always sitting by her, and with a chauffeur. And the chauffeur used to come and buy the flowers for her. She never got out, though. She always wore white, as I remember. I can't think of her name now, but she wrote that beautiful song, "I Love You Truly." But she wasn't a very, she was a cold person, though. Wasn't a friendly person. She was just a, I don't know. Like, well, I guess she was prejudiced. She didn't like the Japanese, that's what, probably what it was. Kind of snubbed us. But the chauffeur was okay. He was nice. I guess he just bought what he, what she wanted him to get. That was okay. But yeah, we had a lot, we had a lot of people.

RP: You had a lot of, yeah, lot of good relationships.

SK: We did. Yeah.

RP: Did your mom ever become a citizen of the United States?

SK: No, she was just happy the way she was. Yeah, she did the best she could, I know. I asked her about that and she never answered me. She was just happy the way she was, I think.

<Begin Segment 18>

RP: And did you have children?

SK: I have one daughter. She's up in Seattle. Her name is Suzy. Everybody knows her, Suzy. She's in this, she works with the lab and this and that at the, and she graduated from that Jesuit university there, Seattle U. Now she's in this, what they call sound, so she's, it's a popular thing. I didn't know sound was that popular.

RP: So did you ever share your Manzanar story with her?

SK: Yes, yes. Yeah, she asks me every time she comes down. But she comes down, she's always, she's always on the internet, or there's, she had to keep up with what they're doing over there, and then there's a lot of messages for her, so she's always out... what's those things that you're... I don't know, those... see, I get a mental block.

RP: You been back to Manzanar?

SK: No. I don't want to go back. [Laughs] To me that was like, I don't want to go back there again. I mean, they've been back several times, but Manzanar as I remember, I just remember all the ugly things. I don't like Manzanar.

RP: Was there a particularly --

SK: It was, to me it was the most, dirtiest, most unhealthy place, with all the wind and everything. It wasn't clean at all. You couldn't get clean, no matter how many showers or baths, you still felt dirty. At least I did. And wintertime, you wash your sheets, you hang it up and it gets stiff dry, it just freezes it gets so cold. That surprised me. Yeah, Manzanar...

RP: Did you have to do the laundry there too?

SK: Yeah, we had to do everything by hand, the laundry. Yeah, hand laundry. I don't know how we did, but we did it. 'Course, in those young days you could do just about everything. You make up your mind to do it, okay, you do it. All those sheets, all the clothing.

RP: [To KP] You have any questions?

KP: Could she talk about that photo next to her?

RP: Sumi, you want to hold up the large photo, the big photo? [SK holds up photo of a house] Can you tell us where that is?

KP: Tip it down toward the floor a little bit more. There you go. Fine, thank you.

RP: Where is that?

SK: Who do you see down there?

RP: What, is that a place you used to live?

SK: No. I wasn't even born, I don't think. This is --

KP: Is that on Western Avenue?

SK: This is Western, somewhere Western, Tenth and Western maybe. This is where my father, grandpa, they're, they were all living here, I think. And I think they had a nursery here, big nursery. Yeah, Grandpa, as I recall, he was a good nurseryman, big nursery. And I know my father, in the meantime, he used to help at the nursery, and in the meantime he was looking for a place for him to stay or settle down. Took him a long time, though, I think. I don't know.

KP: You can put that down. [SK puts photo back] Thank you.

RP: I have just a couple more questions. Sumi, you were involved in the floral business for many years. What are some of the most significant changes that you've seen, from the time that you started working with your mom, 1929, to...

SK: Well, 1929 to now, now everything is very modern. See, I'm the old-fashioned way, and the new modern things, it's okay, but everybody has their own styling, though, even in the floral designer and all that. And so we did have a designer; he was very good, though. And after the war, of course we did the best we could, but we did, it depends on your customers, the way they like things, see. And anyway, I did the best I could. In Japan we used to learn, the way we learned in Japan it was heaven, man and earth sign in the, that was the year, what they call ikebana. But then the floral things, they, some people like it real bushy and full and all that, some people like it very simple, just a, maybe a bamboo -- not a bamboo... see? I lost myself now. One of these twigs, okay, the twigs and then maybe a few flowers, like a heaven, man and earth sign, things like that. All my customers are all different, but they're all, they were all good, most of my customers are artists, though, in different ways. They were good. They understood everything.

<Begin Segment 19>

RP: Do you have any other stories or memories that you'd like to share with us that we haven't mentioned?

SK: Well, I don't know. I'm just a happy go lucky, I mean, every day to me is heaven. I'm glad I'm alive. Yes, I'm glad I'm in good health and I thank God every day. At my age, I can still get around, I can still cook the way I want to with the food I like, and I can drive, yeah. 'Course, my expiration's gonna, I think I have another two years yet. [Laughs] Last time I passed my driver's, I was happy.

RP: Okay.

KP: One more thing, did you get the redress?

RP: Sorry. Do you recall the effort to obtain redress, an apology where the government admitted that what they did to you and a hundred and twenty thousand other people was wrong, should never have happened?

SK: What was that now?

RP: It was called --

SK: To me, those things, I didn't care. I said, okay, let it go. I didn't care.

RP: You didn't want to be reminded of it?

SK: No, I didn't want to be reminded. I'm glad I'm here today. Yeah, I'm glad our family's fine.

RP: You remember getting a check for twenty thousand dollars?

SK: Yeah, that I remember. Yes, that I remember. That, I remember. I said, "Twenty thousand, gee. What are we gonna do for twenty thousand?" But that was it. So we, I put that in saving for some time, though, but savings in those days, well, even now it's worse yet 'cause you're, things are really down there. But it was in there for some time. That's about it.

RP: So you had no, you didn't have any opinion about the government apologizing for that wrong?

SK: Well, to me, war is war. It's one of those things that does happen, see. It's not our fault, so I just let it go at that. I says, okay, we're just thankful we're here, everything's okay for us. That's the way I felt.

RP: If a young person came up to you today and asked you to share any insights or wisdom based on your experiences at Manzanar, what would you tell them?

SK: Well, I'll tell 'em it's a nice group of people, but not for me, I'd tell, I would tell 'em that. Yeah, I didn't care for it. I mean, to me, I hated that place. I just couldn't stand it. But then, did it, we stood by. The only thing that kept me going was help the people in the hospital, and I enjoyed in the lab. To me, that was wonderful. "Oh," I said, "This is happening, and that is happening to that person." To me that's, some of the persons, that really surprised me. But that was it. Manzanar. [Laughs] To me that was the most, I wouldn't know how to say it, but the wind would blow one side, one way, next day it would blow the other way.

RP: Well, thank you very much, Sumi, for your stories.

SK: No, I'm not much of a... [Laughs]

RP: No, that's how you felt about it.

SK: That's the way I felt.

RP: So you shared that, and I appreciate that.