<Begin Segment 5>

RP: You mentioned your uncle. What was his name?

MN: Kawakami.

RP: First name?

MN: Saichi.

RP: And he was the uncle that --

MN: S-A-I-C-H-I Kawakami, K-A-W-A-K-A-M-I. He was in camp.

RP: And he was the one that ran the flower farm?

MN: The farm? He had, he had part of the farm. And then I had another uncle who was my mother's brother also, younger brother, he had, he ran the other part of the farm. So the two of 'em were running, two different types of flowers and they were running it.

RP: So what did you grow at the farm? What, was there any primary flowers that you grew?

MN: The primary flowers were, like, my uncle's, Saichi, the one who was in Manzanar, his -- I should've got his picture for you -- he has grown delphinium. Those are the big blue ones. I mean, he took pride in those, and he was the only one that'd go through the fields and cut those for the market. And he would have ranunculus, and what else did they have? Like they would have, let's see, stocks, those big white ones, they would have.

RP: They have a great odor to them.

MN: And they would have, and then he and another man would have snapdragons. In fact, they got, they grew them and they were nice big fat ones. I should've brought the picture of, I have this picture. He won an award. They used to have flower shows at the Hollywood Park Racetrack, and then we would go down there and my sister would be, help too. She would be the main decorator there. And that was like a show, but then they were awarded different awards for the flowers, specialty flowers.

RP: Your sister showed me a photograph of a, let's see, of a garden that was built at the ranch.

MN: Uh-huh, Japanese garden.

RP: Mr. Kato. And do you remember, recall that taking place?

MN: Yes. It was beautiful. It was really -- and I understand that they got their, the volcanic rock up in the valley there, Owens Valley. Apparently there was a lot of volcanic rock up there, and it was okay to just pick it up. [Laughs]

RP: Did, can you describe, maybe briefly describe the garden as you recall it?

MN: It was a Japanese garden with a big, big waterfall. This was all volcanic rock. And he had, it was quite a large place because it had, being a property out there, it must've taken all of, I would say it was no little thing, maybe the yard itself, the garden itself must've taken up a good half, hundred feet, maybe, no, hundred fifty feet of a city. And the width too was wide. But it was beautiful. He had the bridge, Japanese bridge, and then he had these little Japanese stone lanterns. Those were, well, they were popular, but there's, the people that were making those were, there were a lot of people like that around. Now you can't find those things. But it was a beautiful... and they had regular koi in there, Japanese koi. But he had this waterfall coming down, very nice.

RP: And the water was from, was from a pipe?

MN: From a pipe, regular pipe. And apparently when they had a big ranch like that, you get a special rate, ranch rate or something, and they had this big meter at the end of the property there, but they would get a special rate. And I don't know what, either the water was recycled or what, but it was always kept very, very nice. The pond itself was quite big. I remember it was no ten, fifteen foot pond. It was quite large.

RP: And did you actually watch Mr. Kato building the garden?

MN: I didn't actually stay, well, 'cause it was out in the valley. But I know my uncle, and then he had several helpers, Japanese and Hispanic helpers, help. That's way back in, oh gosh, I must've been in elementary school, I think. And then what he did was, when they decided that he was getting to, up in years, he, his son took over the flower ranch. But it was huge. I mean, it was hard to get help too. He took, he bought a home in Northridge, and this, Northridge had a big, flat backyard, so he took, had them dismantle all that volcanic rock and rebuild it. That home, apparently, that garden must be still there.

RP: Really?

MN: Uh-huh. My aunt passed away a couple years ago, so they did sell the home, but while they were living there he had this big Japanese garden. The whole backyard was Japanese garden, and one small area was for goldfish only, but the other was partly for the koi. But it was very, very similar as far as structure and design. I don't know if Mr. Kato, maybe he did help him with that too.

RP: Your sister described the garden as being in terrible disrepair when you returned from camp.

MN: Up at the ranch, yes.

RP: At the ranch. The bridge was broken.

MN: Yes, because we had a caretaker, but, you know. He didn't, he didn't do any farming or anything. He was that, he wasn't, he just took, kind of watched the place. And 'cause the pine trees, the pretty pine trees and things that they had shaped and everything, that was all kind of let go. It was there, but not, it wasn't taken care of.

RP: And the, you had mentioned that the garden had been transplanted to your uncle's place?

MN: In Northridge?

RP: Yeah, that would've been, would that have been Seichi?

MN: Saichi.

RP: Saichi.

MN: Saichi, uh-huh. My uncle, Kyu, Kyu... his name was Kyui or Kyusan. He passed away before, right before the, '42, the war.

<End Segment 5> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.