<Begin Segment 1>

RP: This is an oral history interview with Shig Kihara for the Manzanar National Historic Site. The date of the interview is April 1, 2011. We are at the multipurpose room of the Japanese United Methodist Church in Sacramento, California. Our videographer is Kirk Peterson, Richard Potashin is the interviewer today, and our interview will be archived in the Park's library. Shig will be discussing his experiences as a resident of the Manzanar War Relocation Center and also his experiences at the Seabrook Farms community after his family left Manzanar. So thank you very much, Shig, for talking a little bit about your stories today.

SK: Oh, you're welcome.

RP: Tell us your birth date.

SK: Oh, January 15, 1935.

RP: Where were you born?

SK: I was born here in Sacramento, California, actually an area called Taishoku.

RP: Can you spell that for us?

SK: I can't, I'm sorry. [Laughs]

RP: Where would Taishoku be in relationship to...

SK: It would be located near Fruitridge, the corner of Fruitridge Road and Hedge, which is probably located from here, it'd only be about maybe, I'm going to say less than six miles. It's pretty close to this location.

RP: What was your given name at birth?

SK: First name was Shigeo, middle name was Laren, and then last name is Kihara.

RP: Do you mind if I refer to you as Shig?

SK: No, I don't. That's what most people call me anyway.

RP: We want to get acquainted with your parents, actually it was your grandparents originally who came from Japan.

SK: Right.

RP: Tell us a little bit about them, their names, and whatever else you can recall about them.

SK: Well, you know, I can't remember my grandfather's name, I really can't, because we always called him Jiichan. My grandmother's name was Hanako. I remember her. And when they immigrated from Japan, I believe the first place that they went to was Anderson, California. And I don't know how long they lived there, but they farmed for a person up there. And then at that time I believe my father and his sister Eleanor were born there. Now, how long they stayed there, I'm not sure. But after Anderson, they moved to Sacramento, California, or Florin. And then they farmed, they had a, I believe, a 90-acre farm. Most of it was in Tokay grapes, and then they had a small plot that was strawberries. We all lived in... let's see. There was one house at the time, and then my dad and my grandfather and them built another home so that they had a separate quarters. And I guess we all helped out, I don't know. I remember helping out on the farm.

RP: Do you know what part of Japan your grandparents came from, Shig?

SK: No, not really. It had to be close to Hiroshima because they belonged to a clan or a group of people called the Hiroshima Kenjinkai. So I'm going to assume they probably came from that area, I'm not sure. You know, we never asked, or my parents never said too much about that.

RP: You're actually a third generation Japanese American, Sansei?

SK: Yes, I'm a Sansei.

RP: Grandparents Issei and your parents Nisei. Tell us about your dad. First, what was his full name?

SK: Rae Yoroku Kihara.

RP: And he was born in Anderson, California?

SK: I believe he was born in Anderson.

RP: And where is Anderson, California?

SK: Near Redding someplace. Redding or... that would be the closest city that I know of. I don't know of any other way to describe Anderson. I believe it's... let's see, probably off of I-5 now, but that's about north of Sacramento, probably a hundred miles.

<End Segment 1> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 2>

RP: What do you remember most about your grandparents?

SK: What do I remember most about my grandparents? Well, they did most of the babysitting for us and cooking, I remember that. While my mom and dad worked on the farm, my grandmother did most of the housekeeping and cooking for the family, my grandfather helped on the farm, and then the rest, like I said, when we got a little bit older, we helped out there. But they always seemed to be the ones that took care of us while our parents worked.

RP: And were there any particular values or lessons that you got from your grandparents or that they tried to instill in you?

SK: Well, they probably tried to instill some Japanese customs on us, I mean, I remember that, yeah. And they were pretty harsh on their punishments at that time. I mean, what they considered punishment at that time would be child abuse right now, okay. I mean, their form of punishment was, I don't know what you'd call it in the English language... let's see. If you did something bad, they usually gave you what they called yaito. That's what they used in therapy -- they give that nowadays, it's a little incense that they put on the skin and burn it. Anyway, we used to get that if we were really bad, I remember that.

RP: What did you have to do to get that kind of punishment?

SK: [Laughs] I can't remember, but pretty bad things. I mean, what they considered bad. Being overly mischievous or something like that, or hitting the younger kids or the sisters or something like that.

RP: And it was your grandparents that administered the discipline?

SK: No, it was my father.

RP: So you mentioned the yaito, was there another, any other forms of discipline that you recall?

SK: No, other than that, and that was very seldom. The only thing that I could remember is maybe being told not to do something. And I remember even, we had dogs on the farm, I remember one incident where I was on a Caterpillar and Dad was gassing the Caterpillar up, and we had dogs at that time anyway. But he told me not to walk on the tracks, but I did, and I fell off, and the dog actually bit my dad in the leg. And, see, we never really played with the dog that much, but I don't know, I guess they were pretty protective of us, of the kids, anyway. Because they were always chained up, they couldn't go anyplace. But I thought that was a pretty funny thing... well, at the time, I thought it was funny.

RP: What were some of the other customs or traditions that your grandparents or even your parents tried to share with you?

SK: As far as Japanese customs? You know, I don't remember them sharing a whole bunch of Japanese customs because my grandparents never talked to us in Japanese, they always tried to talk to us in English, even if it was broken English. My parents never talked to us in Japanese. We never had to use chopsticks when we ate, we could use fork or it was up to us what we wanted to use for utensils. So other than that, as far as the Japanese customs goes, well, they always did have New Year's, that was a big thing. Christmas is, I don't think it's considered Japanese custom, but they did have Christmas celebration. They celebrated all the American customs like Thanksgiving and things. So as far as the Japanese customs go, the only one I can remember is New Year's.

RP: What do you remember about New Year's?

SK: Well, it was always a happy time, and I remember there was a lot of drinking during that time. And all the families from the surrounding areas would get together, and it seemed like a custom where the husbands would go visit the other families, and the wives and the kids stayed home. And the husband made the rounds, or males made the rounds, I'll put it that way, the grownup males. And the females and the younger kids stayed home and entertained the people that came over. But it was a happy time. I mean, there was no bickering or anything else, everybody was happy. I remember Dad getting pretty drunk at times. [Laughs]

RP: Did he or your grandfather make sake or other alcoholic beverages on the farm?

SK: Oh, that's right, they used to make wine.

RP: Grapes?

SK: Yeah, out of grapes. We used to, after they picked the grapes, that they would have those wooden barrels, and we would stomp on him barefooted. I remember that, that's right. As far as sake, I don't believe they made that. But wine, they did.

RP: Were you allowed to drink wine at a young age?

SK: No. We never were allowed to have any alcoholic beverages.

RP: What was it like stomping on grapes?

SK: Cushy. [Laughs] I remember that thing going between your toes, yeah. It was fun, though. At five and six years old, it was our fun.

RP: To get back to your dad, what do you remember most about your father as a person?

SK: Well, he was a stern person but he was a real, you know... I don't know if you would call it, he wasn't happy-go-lucky, I mean, he would help you with whatever you wanted, if you needed help. And then if you went out for sports or anything he would be all for it, and he would encourage you to take part in sports. Most things that I remember about him was that he worked an awful lot. When we lived on a farm, he probably worked maybe twelve to fourteen hours a day when it was a busy time. So actually we didn't see too much of Dad. he would be gone early in the morning and come back late in the evening, and by then we would be, have to get ready to go to bed. But I remember he was a real hard worker, not matter what kind of work he took on, he always tried to do a good job.

<End Segment 2> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 3>

RP: So you were talking about the fact that you didn't grow up with Japanese in the home, and English was primarily the... did you attend a Japanese language school later on?

SK: Yeah. You know, I'm trying to remember exactly how long I lasted in that Japanese school. I don't think I lasted very long. They did have one right there on the corner of Hedge and Fruitridge, at that place I call Taishoku. And I remember going to it, but I don't remember how long I went. I really don't think I attended it very long. So the Japanese language was never stressed to us. They never made a thing where they wanted us to learn Japanese, so we never did learn.

RP: That was very contrary to a number of other families, who the kids remember picking up Japanese at home and going to school, and that's one of the first exposures they had to English.

SK: Yeah, well, then we must be in the minority because I don't...

RP: Well, your parents were Nisei.

SK: Right, yeah. Like I said, they never expressed that. And to this day, if I could speak a hundred words of Japanese, that'd be pretty good. [Laughs]

RP: Well, we won't take you up on that.

SK: Okay, no.

<End Segment 3> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 4>

RP: Can you describe the farm to us, where you grew up?

SK: Yeah, I kind of remember the whole farm. I remember, like I said, there was two homes, there was a big barn, there was an outhouse, there was a detached, I'm going to say farmworker's home away from ours. I don't remember if it was that far away. I don't think it was, it may have been maybe four or five hundred yards away, but where we kept our horses and things for the plowing the fields and things. And then I remember there used to be a water tank over there, and then I remember there used to be a ditch that the kitchen water ran, because there was no pipes, and there was no septic system at that time. So whatever water came out of the kitchen faucet went into a ditch. And I remember the outhouse, too, that was a two-holer. I remember Dad had to dynamite that thing to get, dig it deep enough. Because out in the Florin area it was all hard hat. So it took a long time... that was one thing I do remember. Oh, then it had the Japanese furo, yeah, which was away from the home, too, you had to walk to it to get to the back.

RP: How far?

SK: See, I don't remember exactly how far. I don't think it was too far.

RP: Was it an enclosed bathhouse?

SK: Yes, it was enclosed, it had a big tub, and it had a place where they put the wood and stoke up the fire.

RP: And water had to be brought to the tub, or was there a pipe leading there?

SK: God, I don't remember that. I think the water had to be brought in, but I'm not sure. I remember the water used to be always hot, though. And then one of the -- oh, yes, one of the customs was that before you went into the tub, you washed yourself off. Yeah, that is the Japanese customs, okay, there is one.

RP: And how often would you, would the family bathe? Every night?

SK: Yeah, it was just about every night, I remember that.

RP: And did you bathe with some of your other siblings or by yourself? What was the custom?

SK: No, I think when we went in there, I think it was with my mother or my father. Because we were kind of too small to go in that thing by ourselves. It was a pretty big tub, I remember that. And it had, the water was, like I said, real hot. And then it had a wood, floating wood grill that when you stepped on it, it went down so that you weren't on the hot metal. So yeah, they wouldn't let us in there by ourselves.

RP: How did that feel?

SK: It was hot. [Laughs] I remember that. When you came out of there, you felt like a lobster. So we were pretty used to taking real warm baths.

RP: Where did the water for the farm come from? Was it a spring or a well?

SK: No, I think it came from a spring, because like I said, there was a water tank that was away from the house, and it was made out of wood and the top of it was open, I remember that. It was on a tower, and that's, like I said, was near the farmworkers' home there.

RP: Did you have resident farmworkers who helped year-round?

SK: No, not resident. They only came during the harvest time or during the pruning time, I think. Yeah, because the grapes that had to be pruned during the certain time of the season, I think they came in during that time, and then they came in during the harvesting of the grapes. And I think they also came picking the strawberries, too, because I think there was about four or five acres. And I think, I'm pretty sure it was too much for just the family to do.

RP: Do you remember what groups would be hired to do that seasonal work?

SK: Yes, it was mostly Filipinos. At that time it was Filipino workers. Where they came from, I don't know.

RP: And was your family responsible for feeding them?

SK: Not feeding 'em. I'm not sure if they had to furnish the food or not, but they did their own cooking and everything. My parents didn't have to cook for 'em, because they had their own, like I said, their own home or cabin or whatever you want to call it. And they had all the facilities there.

RP: Now, you mentioned that your grandparents and your dad owned the 90-acre farm, and maybe you're aware of this, that Isseis were prevented from owning land in California, there were laws that were passed prohibiting them from doing that. How... what was the farm arranged in terms of ownership to get around that?

SK: You know, I don't know if, how they got around it as far as the ownership goes. I don't know if the farm was in my father's name or how they got around that law, because I didn't know anything about a law like that. And I'm pretty sure that they did own the farm, but I don't know what they did to legally own it.

<End Segment 4> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 5>

RP: Do you recall, Shig, what year your dad was born?

SK: Oh, boy, let's see. He was nineteen when I was born, so nineteen years before '35.

RP: Do some math here. '16, 1916.

SK: Someplace in that neighborhood. I can't...

RP: And his name was spelled interesting. It wasn't the usual "Ray," it was R-A-E.

SK: Right, I have no idea how they came about spelling it that way. But even my dad told me at the time that he told us that it's R-A-E, that it's the... from what I understood, it was the female way of spelling Ray. I don't know if my grandfather and grandmother knew that that's what it was, but that's how he ended up being R-A-E. [Laughs]

RP: And did he have other siblings?

SK: He had one sister, Eleanor.

RP: And was she older or younger than Rae?

SK: Eleanor was younger.

RP: And so she was on, growing up, was she helping with the farmwork in Florin at all? Eventually she got married.

SK: Yeah. You know, she wasn't at Florin, she was already married when we were in Florin. So I think she must have only been up in Anderson, but I'm not sure. By the time I remember her visiting us, she was already married and had a son, but they lived down in L.A. and we would only see them very seldomly, maybe once a year.

RP: Let's bring in your mother to this discussion. Her name was Pauline...

SK: Right, correct.

RP: Ogino?

SK: Ogino.

RP: And can you tell us a little bit about her early life?

SK: Well, my mother's maiden name was Ogino, but her parents passed away when she was, I don't know how old. I can't remember, I know she told us, but I can't remember how old the parents were when they passed away. So she was actually brought up by a relative or somebody else. I know that she had a brother named Tommy and Tony, and I don't know if all of them were brought up by, it was one of their relatives, but I can't remember exactly when she lost her parents, but she was pretty young at the time. But after her parents passed away, I believe she lived in Sacramento, in fact, she was born in Sacramento, and she was raised here in Sacramento. I don't know where she went to... I'm pretty sure she went to school in Sacramento and everything, finished school in Sacramento, but that's about all I know about her history. I think she talked more to my sisters about that than she did to me, because I don't remember any of that.

<End Segment 5> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 6>

RP: And do you recall when your parents married?

SK: I'm going to say about 1934.

RP: You were born in '35, so...

SK: Yeah. It was pretty close. I think it was, you know, pretty close after they were married that I was born. I mean...

RP: Did you ever ask them how they met?

SK: Oh, I never did, but I think I found out. They were both pretty athletic during their teenage years. My mother was a very good basketball player and so was my dad. And I think that's how they met, through sports. I know Dad was good at basketball and he was also good at baseball. And I remember Mom telling me that she was very good at basketball with a two-hand shot. Because during those times, they didn't shoot the one hand basketball, it was always a two hand push or something. Anyway...

RP: A set shot.

SK: Right. That's how they met, through sports, right.

RP: And did they keep that up after they had kids?

SK: Well, Mom didn't, but Dad did. Dad played baseball.

RP: Was he on the Florin team?

SK: Yes. He was on the Florin team before the war, with the Florin... I don't know what their names were or anything, but they did have a Florin team that he played with. And then he played baseball when he was in camp, I remember that, too.

RP: At Manzanar?

SK: Right.

RP: There was a Florin team at Manzanar, too.

SK: Well, maybe that's what it was, but I remember he played on the Florin team here, and from what, you know, some of the people that knew him said he was pretty good at baseball.

RP: And do you know what position he played?

SK: I think I remember him playing first base one time in camp, but I do remember that he was a left-handed hitter. But he threw right-handed but he hit left. But as far as the positions go, I just, this one time I seem to remember him playing first base in Manzanar.

RP: Do you remember going to see him play games here in Florin?

SK: No. That was... see, I think that was when I was probably real small. I don't remember any of that. I remember seeing a picture of him with a team, that's it. I don't know where that picture went or anything.

RP: Do you recall or know where games were played in the Florin area?

SK: No, I have no idea.

RP: Yeah, they had a pretty good reputation, good baseball team. I mean, they also went, of course, Kirk was mentioning that the community of Florin got quartered up and went to four different camps, and it also started teams in other camps as well as Manzanar.

SK: Yeah, you know, he used to mention some... I don't know if they played with him, one person named Sloppy, another one named Bubbles... there was, you know, these funny nicknames that he used to play with. Oh, Soapy was another one. So...

RP: Did he ever acquire one?

SK: Not that I know of. If he did, we never knew about it.

RP: Maybe he didn't want you to.

SK: Maybe he didn't want us to know about it, I don't know. He never did mention that. But, you know, it was funny because these, some of these people that he knew after, even after we came back from New Jersey, he was in touch with them. And I'm pretty sure some of those were ex-playmates, baseball players. But that's about all I knew about baseball, I mean, athletic things.

RP: I asked you earlier about what you remember about your father. I want to ask you about what you remember most about your mother, her qualities, personality.

SK: You know, Mom had a real easy-going personality. She was always happy, she never got... I mean, really mad at us unless we really did something out of the ordinary. And she really had a good sense of humor for bring us, I mean, the thing I remember most about her was her, like I said, her sense of humor. I mean, she could really take a whole bunch of guff from us and still be happy-go-lucky. She was a very happy-go-lucky person. That's one of the biggest traits that I remember about her. I still marvel at how she could, you know, take care of seven of us. [Laughs] I don't know how she did it, really, because she was the main caretaker. You know, like I said, when Grandma and Grandpa weren't there, she was the one that went to, we all went to. Dad was kind of more standoffish. That male, I think there was still that male thing, you know, that Japanese custom.

RP: Stoic man, passed down from the Issei.

SK: Yeah, right.

RP: Do did you inherit some of that happy-go-lucky?

SK: I think I did. I think all of us kids did. Really, you know, out of seven of us, I think we all have a pretty good sense of humor. I mean, we have our bad times, too, but I think we're all the same way. We kind of tried to look at the positive side of things. We even look at our experience at Manzanar kind of on a positive thing. I don't know if it didn't happen, I don't know what would have happened to us. But we all seemed to have came out pretty well for what happened to us. If we had stayed at the farm, I don't know what would have happened. If the war didn't break out, I don't know what would have happened, but I think most of us, in fact, all of us, seven of us kids, don't have any regrets of what happened to us.

<End Segment 6> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

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RP: Well, let's meet the rest of the family. You were the oldest, firstborn?

SK: Yes, I'm the oldest. Sally is the next one, she's two years younger. I may be off on the age thing, but Sally next, and then Joanne, I think she's two years younger than Sally. And then Eleanor, I think she's one year but I'm not sure, then Shirley, and then Michael, and then Fay.

RP: And Michael was born at Manzanar?

SK: Yes. He was born... you know, I can't remember exactly when it was, I mean, after we got there, but it couldn't have been too much longer, I mean, if we had only been there three years, I'm going to say at the most a year after or something like that. Wait a minute, he was born in... he would have been, hold on, he would have been sixty-seven right now. He was born on, that I remember, tenth of October, and he would have been sixty-seven. He was exactly, I mean, about ten years younger than I was.

RP: And Fay was born in Seabrook?

SK: Yeah, Seabrook.

RP: And so you ended up, well, you had a younger brother, but at the time that you were growing up, you were the only boy.

SK: Yes, yes.

RP: So how did that work? To your advantage, or not?

SK: You know, I can't remember if it was an advantage or a disadvantage. I just don't remember anything being, you know, where I had to be the male thing or what. I don't think there was anything like that. Most of it probably was a pretty good experience, I'm pretty sure, I can't remember anything being real bad. We probably had our ups and downs, but we all got along pretty well.

<End Segment 7> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 8>

RP: Can you share with us a little bit about the Florin community? It was primarily Japanese American grape growers and strawberry growers. Were you isolated? Did you have other farms nearby?

SK: Yeah. I remember, okay, I remember our farm was on one side of the road, and there was, well, our cousin, Bill Takeda, was across the street, and there was two other Japanese families across the street. There was a, well, I'm pretty sure it was a Caucasian family that was next to us on the farm. Down the street on Fruitridge Road I remember there were some more Japanese families, but I think there was about five or six and the rest were, I think, Caucasian. Because I know that my parents knew their... I mean, at that time, most farmers knew each other.

RP: And did you play with other kids from other farm areas?

SK: You know, that would... there weren't many kids my age, I'll put it that way, at the time that my parents were farming here. I don't remember playing, associating with other kids my age, in fact. And most of the time, I think we just hung out as a family. I did go to a place that was so, maybe, I'm going to say a mile, but it may have not been that far away. But there was a family named Ono that lived in back of us, and I used to visit their son. And he was... god, at that time, I don't know... I think he was a teenager already. And he's about the only one I remember. But I remember spending a lot of time, there used to be a creek that was behind our farm, and I'd spend a lot of time frogging and fishing. I think that's what I did a lot. The only time that I remember associating with anybody else was if I walked quite a long ways, which, you know, I didn't do. So like I said, I think it was mostly with the sisters and family.

RP: Were there particular occasions when the community would come together for a kenjinkai activity or picnics?

SK: You know, I don't remember those things. I don't remember those gatherings. I don't know why, but I may have a mental block on it, but I don't remember that. I do remember that we went to the state fair as a family. I remember going to the World's Fair at Treasure Island in I can't remember what year. I think I was about five years old.

RP: 1939?

SK: Something like that. Someplace in there and I remember getting lost. I remember they... I don't know how I got back with my parents, but I got lost, and I think that security or somebody announced it or something, I think. But I remember that.

RP: Was religion a factor in your life early on?

SK: No. [Laughs] You know, it's funny, when we got out of camp... okay, when we were in camp, I don't think we went to church or anything. When I got out of camp and went to Gardena, I think I went to a Catholic school for a while, church, I don't think I went to a church, I went to a Catholic school. I remember it was Catholic. Then as I grew up later on, I'd say I went to a Presbyterian. Those two I remember, and that was it. So religion really didn't play a big part in our lives. Because my parents never did go to Buddhist church, my grandmother and grandfather never went to a Buddhist church, and I think the reason was that they were kind of busy in the farm. I think the weekends were free, but I don't remember them going to a church.

RP: Did your father have to market his own produce? Would he have to haul it into Sacramento or other markets?

SK: You know, if I remember correctly, I think he used to bring it to the Florin railyard from where they lived. I think he had a market for the grape, and that's about all I know about that.

RP: Now, agriculture always has its cycles and ups and downs. Do you recall any stories about how your family weathered the Depression years?

SK: I remember they talked about it being fairly hard, but I don't know how, you know, they did or what they did to survive it, but they really didn't talk that much about that, either. I believe, if I had my guess or druthers, I would say they probably had a real rough time at that time. But everybody else did, too.

RP: Now there was an area of Florin, kind of a Japantown type of area, with stores and other businesses. Do you recall that area at all?

SK: In Florin? [Laughs] No, I don't remember that. Because as far as I know, Florin is so small, even to this day, that it hasn't grown from their prewar years to right now. The same buildings are still there, and I don't know how it could have had a, say, an Asian or Oriental section. It may have had, I don't remember.

<End Segment 8> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 9>

RP: So you started going to school in Florin, correct?

SK: Yes, yes.

RP: Where did you go?

SK: I went to a school off of Hedge and Fruitridge, now I can't remember the name of that school. I started there.

RP: Can you describe the school for us?

SK: Not really. If I saw the school now, I mean, if I was to describe it, I would say that it was a small school. But aside from that, I don't remember how it looked or who the people were that attended. I do remember walking there every, I mean, school day. There was no bus or anything, so rain or shine, we walked, or I walked. Because my sister, I think, was still too young to go. I probably was the only one.

RP: Was it an integrated school?

SK: Yes. This was not a segregated school, I remember that. It was integrated.

RP: And who else went to the school?

SK: All the kids that lived around that area in the farm area.

RP: And that would be Caucasians, Japanese Americans, were there other ethnicities, too?

SK: You know, I really don't know. I would imagine if there were migrant worker kids, they would have gone, too. But I can't be sure. I'm not sure.

RP: Are there any other stories that you'd like to share with us about growing up on the farm and what that was like for you?

SK: Well, the farm thing to me was just like camp to me. It was a fun time, I mean, I don't remember any really bad things. I was able to go fishing or frogging and doing those things that I guess young kids at that time could do. I mean, we weren't restricted as far as worrying about somebody grabbing us off the street or anything, so we were pretty free to wander.

RP: Independent.

SK: Yes, very independent, to wander around, even at the age of five, six years old.

RP: So tell me about your frogging experience. How did you catch frogs?

SK: Oh, I used to use a long bamboo pole with a little hook and a red cloth on the end. And then, you know, you dangle it in front of their face and they'd bite it. Don't ask me why they'd bite it, because my parents were the ones that told me that you could do that. So anyway, I would catch 'em, and I'd put 'em in a sack and I'd bring 'em home. And then my mom would, you know, prepare 'em. But when she prepared 'em the first time, this she told me, I don't remember it. She told me that the first time she prepared it, she shut the lights off because she didn't like to see the frog. After you cut the legs, they twitch. And then she didn't like it when you put 'em in the frying pan, they also twitched. [Laughs] Anyway, we learned how to eat frogs, which was, frog legs, it's very delicious. And that brings up a funny part of our nieces and nephews. During our times here, my parents would have a dinner every Sunday. And one Sunday, a good friend of ours gave us a whole bunch of frog legs and my mother cooked them. But we didn't tell the kids what they were, we told them it was chicken legs. Anyway, they ate it and they thought it was real good, but when my parents told them, my mother told them it was frog, they all go, blecchh. [Laughs] And this was here in Sacramento when the nephews and nieces were growing up. There were nineteen, I think it was nineteen nieces and nephews. Anyway, that frog thing kind of brought that back.

RP: Great story. How about fishing? What did you catch?

SK: We used to catch nothing but carps and catfish.

RP: Was it also part of your mealtimes?

SK: No, we just caught those, I just caught those for fun, and then never kept them. The catfish my mother... yeah, my mother would cook catfish, but I thought most of the time when we caught the catfish, I think my dad went with me or we caught 'em together. But I remember him putting a nail in the head, you cut around the skin, nail the head to a board and peel it to clean the catfish, you know, to skin it. So I think we did eat the catfish.

<End Segment 9> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 10>

RP: What was your diet like? Were there obviously a lot of vegetables?

SK: Yes, what they call okazu. Yeah, that was like meat and vegetables, very small slices of meat with a lot of vegetables and soy sauce and sugar. I think it's kind of like the teriyaki sauce. Or now what they call it would be pan fry, wok, you know, the Chinese style vegetable cooking. There was a lot of that, because while I don't think they could afford to buy meat, meat was pretty expensive, but vegetable was plentiful, easy to get. We did eat a lot of vegetables.

RP: And rice?

SK: Yes, rice was a staple. There was rice with every meal except breakfast. I mean, they did cook fried rice when there was an abundance of rice leftover.

RP: You mentioned early on, you had a great story about you falling off the Caterpillar, so your father eventually did have equipment, machinery?

SK: Oh, yes. He had, no, no, they always had a Caterpillar, and they had a... I don't know what you call those other ones with the wheels. They had two tractors, and Dad, I remember the one time when their Caterpillar broke down, he tore the whole engine apart and fixed it up and everything. He also had a big, I don't know if it would be considered big now, but he had a flatbed truck, which was all put in a, I mean, the barn was a pretty good size. But yes, he did have equipment.

RP: Also horses, too?

SK: I'm sorry?

RP: Did you say that he had horses, too?

SK: Yes, they had horses. And when they took care of the strawberry portion of it, they didn't use the tractor, they used the horses to cultivate the ends between the rows. That's right, Grandpa was the one that did that. Yeah, he was the one, right, with the horse. The I guess if they had a vegetable garden, he would be the one to plow up the vegetable garden with the horse.

RP: Did you grow Japanese vegetables that you can recall?

SK: God, I don't know, but I imagine so. They probably grew what they called daikon, you know, the big long thing, I don't know what they call it in English. I don't know if they grew any of the Japanese food, but they probably did. Because most of the farmers during that time would grow their own vegetables.

RP: Another one that's been mentioned that was grown on farms was gobo?

SK: Oh, gobo, yes. You got a better perspective than I do, gobo is one of those... I don't know if that was considered a staple or what, but a lot of Japanese people did eat a lot of gobo. They sliced it very thin and cooked it different ways, but most of the time it was cooked with soy sauce. I guess it was one of those vegetables that actually came from, or originated in Asia someplace.

RP: How did the strawberries taste on your farm?

SK: [Laughs] Well, you know, that's the thing. I can't say that they were really great, I don't know, I don't remember, that's all. I remember they grew every year, I mean, it was harvested every year and they actually packaged it up in those boxes and shipped them out. So they had a buyer for 'em.

RP: And somebody had to make the boxes, too?

SK: Yeah. Well, you know what, yeah, that's right.

RP: Did your dad do that?

SK: You know, I believe they did. Because they didn't buy 'em premade at that time, I think they bought the material and put 'em together. I think you're right. All that I think was all stored, the parts were all stored in the barn.

<End Segment 10> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 11>

RP: We're going to move into the war now, talk a little bit about the war and how it originally affected your life and your family's life. Let's start, do you have any recollection at all about December 7, 1941?

SK: No. No, I don't remember anything about it.

RP: Do you recall any changes or... that occurred after that time, before you were removed?

SK: No.

RP: Any sense that there was something unusual that happened?

SK: Well, it could have been, but it seemed like it just all happened at one time. I mean, the time spent between the time that the war started, I mean, 1941 and the time we were told that we were going to camp, it seems like it was just instantaneous as far as I was concerned. I mean, I don't remember any time spent between that. The only thing I remember was like Dad telling... I don't know if he told my grandparents or what, but you can't have any gun, can't have Japanese symbols or anything else, and so I do remember them saying, I mean, Dad burying the guns. I don't think my grandparents had any Japanese flags or anything, or even Japanese swords. But as far as the timespan goes from '41 to '42, it seemed like it all happened instantaneously to me.

RP: Like a flash.

SK: Right, I just don't remember how long it took.

RP: And what arrangements were made for the farm? How did you deal with your farm?

SK: Well, as far as I know about the farm, it was just left there. But some of our personal things like a car was kept by a neighbor of ours, a Caucasian family, and they agreed to keep the car for us, and also keep the guns that Dad had. I said that he buried them, but I think he let them handle that. But as far as the farm itself, I think they just left it there, I'm not sure.

RP: When we talked earlier this week you mentioned that you thought they might have sold the farm maybe later on?

SK: Yes, later on when, or during that time, as far as the timespan goes, I'm not sure. There was a proclamation that says you can't have it anymore, then they probably sold it right then and there. Somebody just said, "Well give you x number of money and we'll buy it from you." And I don't know if that was right away after the proclamation or what.

<End Segment 11> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 12>

RP: ...continuing interview with Shig Kihara, and this is tape two. And Shig, we were just going over some of your recollections of the time between Pearl Harbor and your removal from Florin. You mentioned that you, that your dad left his car and some of his guns with a Caucasian neighbor. Was that the 1935 Buick?

SK: No, 1935, yeah, right. It was a 1935 Buick, right. Uh-huh.

RP: Uh-huh. And I know you were again still pretty young, do you recall a visit to the, to your parents' farm by the FBI at any point in time?

SK: Well, you know, I can't say for sure if people came and visited. But I... it seemed like in the back of my mind that something, some people did come. But I'm not sure. I can't say positively that they did.

RP: Do you have recollections of where did, where did you have to go to meet the train on the day that you left?

SK: You know, that part there, it seems like I'm, I don't know why, but I seem to remember that we just went to the Florin train station there and got on a train. And we were off. And, I remember one of the things that my mother told either, I think it was Shirley, in fact, I spoke to Shirley, and it was Shirley that had whooping cough. I mean, not whooping... yes, whooping cough. She had whooping cough and told her to not cough because if she did they were gonna take her off the train and put her, isolate her and she wouldn't be on the train with us. So she told Shirley, "Don't cough." Yeah. Before I think when I, we spoke about this, I think it was us kids. But it was Shirley. Yeah. But, like I said, I remember, I think it was Florin, the train station that we got on.

RP: Do you have any remembrance of that day that you left? I know it was a long time ago.

SK: No, you know, I don't remember anything about that. I mean, I remember we were on a train, that's it. I don't even know when we arrived at the camp or anything.

<End Segment 12> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 13>

RP: Tell us about if you can recall your impressions or first days at Manzanar? What sticks out in your mind about that?

SK: Yeah. Well, one of the things I remember was it was dusty, it was hot. And when you get, when we went into the barracks the dust would be coming through the floor. It was windy. And then... oh that's right. They had the scorpions hung on each one of the barracks outside. Yeah, they had... that's right, I remember that now. And then, when you went outside, I don't know when it was after that, we saw those scorpions running around. But, you know, now that you mention that, that's... on each one of the barracks they did have a scorpion hanging.

RP: Hanging?

SK: Yes.

RP: Outside the barracks?

SK: Yes. On a string.

RP: And, as Kirk mentioned, why? Do you have any idea?

SK: No. Maybe to warn us about a scorpion. I don't know.

RP: A scorpion warning system?

SK: Yeah. Well, you know, it's funny. It just came back, dawned on me. I, maybe I'm imagining it but I don't think so. I think it was there. You could ask somebody else if I'm right. I don't know.

RP: It was, it was dead I would imagine.

SK: Yes, no, no, it was dead, yes. But, anyway, I remember the dust. I remember it windy, hot. And, like I said, the cracks in the floor of the barracks.

RP: And what block did you get assigned to?

SK: Block 27.

RP: Now there was, let's see, there was six of you at that point?

SK: Yes.

RP: Right. And plus your grandparents went with you.

SK: Yes. They went with us. And so I don't, I know that it was not separated. Oh, they, what they did was put a sheet or a blanket or something to partition off the things. And I think my, we were on one end and I think my grandparents were on the next and I think my cousin was next to us there too in the same one.

RP: In the same room or in the, were the...

SK: The same barrack.

RP: Same barrack, okay.

SK: Right. But it was all open. It was... and then I remember another thing about the barrack was at the beginning when we first got there, the mattresses were filled with straw. Yeah. See, that's another thing that I didn't remember before but they were. It wasn't, it wasn't with cotton or anything. It was, it was with, filled with straw.

RP: Had you ever slept on a straw mattress before?

SK: No.

RP: What was that like?

SK: I don't remember it being uncomfortable or what. But I imagine for the grownup it was an experience. Yeah.

RP: And those mattresses had already been stuffed? You didn't have to put hay in those? Some people had to...

SK: I don't believe so. Maybe they stuffed them. I don't know. Because I remember when we got there, let's see, were they rolled up? I can't remember if they were rolled. You know, it's the old military bed with no... just a spring, steel. And I don't remember if there, if the mattress were folded up or what.

RP: A lot of kids your age remember something very traumatic when they first came to camp, shots.

SK: Oh, yes. Yeah, I remember those. Well, I guess we had, we got inoculated for typhoid, I don't know what else. But I remember there was a series of three. That much I remember. And I remember that I don't know which one it was but after I got the shot I was okay for a while. And my parents were gonna do something so I said, well, I didn't want to be there. I'll go back to the barracks and I don't know how far along I got but it, that thing hit me and I ended up crawling the rest of the way to the house or the barracks. I don't know how far I crawled. I remember crawling. Yeah. But those shots were, ooh, they hurt. Those needles looked like they were like that, and that thick. I think we got three of those and some other shots. I don't know if we had the smallpox. Yeah, I think we got those, too.

<End Segment 13> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 14>

RP: So you came in there late spring and during the summer months, like you said, it got pretty hot in camp. So what did you do to cool off?

SK: Well, one of the things we did was go to the, there, well, after we were able to get off the inside the enclosure, we would go swimming in the water hole, where they, the camp's water supply came.

RP: The reservoir.

SK: Yeah, the reservoir.

RP: You swam in the reservoir?

SK: Yeah, well, I learned how to swim in there. Yeah, by using, well, first we used to dive in and go under water to the other side or a short distance. And then we would, well, I used those milk cartons, those, they were made out of paper or whatever it was, and used those as a float and learned to paddle that way. Yeah, that's how we kept cool in the summertime. But as far as air conditioning or anything else in the barracks, there was nothing. I mean the, I guess you probably put a wet towel or something like that.

RP: So you walked out of camp to the reservoir?

SK: Yes. Yeah, see, it's funny. I didn't remember what direction that was but when we visited the camp in October of last year, I could relate to where the, where the reservoir was which was north of the camp. And so, that, I remember that. And I also remembered that the pig farm was south of the camp. I mean, until just visiting, until we visited it, I didn't realize which direction anything was. And I remember the airport was east of the 395, on the other side of the road. I always used to remember that little sack, air sack. Yeah. And I think that thing was there when we visited in October, but I'm not sure.

RP: Oh.

SK: Yeah.

RP: Interesting. So that's how you got your bearings kind of.

SK: Yes. I mean, I just didn't remember north, south, or east or west. But when we visited in October, then it came to me which direction everything was. Yeah, but anyway, that's... in the spring and summer we kind of kept cool by swimming in the water hole.

RP: Did you have any problems getting out of camp during that time or was that a period when the MPs were no longer in the towers?

SK: Well, at that time the MPs were already gone. See, when the guard towers were manned, I don't know if the incident was true or not, but we, I remember somebody saying that somebody got shot because they reached over the fence with, to get a ball or something which I'm not sure was true or not. Okay. So we never went near there. I mean we would go near the fence during that time when the guards were there, but never ventured out. I don't know how much longer after we were there the guard towers were unmanned. But then we were, we would go off the farm. I mean, out to the water hole. People would got to Mount Whitney. Yeah. They'd go, I guess they went all over.

RP: While you were swimming in the reservoir did you notice any fish in there?

SK: Yes, there used to be trout in there all the time. Well you know it's funny. We never tried to catch 'em with... we didn't, we never tried to catch 'em 'cause we didn't have any fishing equipment. So we, the only thing we would try to do is stomp on 'em. I mean they were, they were too quick to stomp on a fish anyway, but that's about the only thing. I think that the adults or the people that were older used to use a safety pin as a hook. But I'm not sure. We didn't have any fishing hooks. So, anyway.

RP: So you never went out and actually fished in the creeks?

SK: No, no. I remember that reservoir to the north and I remember a creek to the south. And I remember that had trout in it too.

RP: Oh, was that near the camp?

SK: Yes. It was, I think it was south of that pig farm or where the, where those warehouses were, below that. I think there's a stream.

RP: Right. So, you were never chased out of the reservoir or anybody ever gave you any grief about swimming there?

SK: No.

RP: Did you ever see any people up there, adults, who were in charge of maintaining the reservoir or anything of that nature?

SK: No, nobody ever bothered us. We...

RP: Were, were there other people, other kids that, that went in and swam there regularly?

SK: Oh yeah, uh-huh. We all... there, there'd be a whole bunch of us. yeah, I mean, nobody ever said anything to us. And I think, now that I think about it, I think the vegetable garden was that direction too someplace. The camp grew its own vegetable or something. And I think it was that direction.

RP: North and south of the camp.

SK: Right, north. I think there was one north of it but I'm not sure.

<End Segment 14> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 15>

RP: How about sports in camp? Were you involved with activities?

SK: Well, I did horizontal bars. And then I remember one thing that we were required to do was, we were all required to take judo. And there used to be that judo, it was kind of a, not a lean to but an open-air judo place with a mat in there. And I remember having to take judo for a while. So I did judo. I did horizontal bars. I never did play basketball. Maybe we just shot some balls and things like that. But for recreation... oh, and then I did play, I did play marbles and spin tops. But I got pretty good at marbles, I remember that.

RP: Best in the block?

SK: No, not the best in the block but I used to be, do pretty well. Yeah, we used to call it... they had that marble made out of, they used to call it an agate. We used to always try to get the agate from the other person. Yeah, so anyway.

RP: So you had a pretty good collection?

SK: Yes. And then well, one of the things that we used to do was we also used to do, make slingshots. So, we used the marbles as the slingshot ammo.

RP: What would you shoot 'em at?

SK: Hmm, we'd shoot at all kinds of birds out of, out of camp.

RP: You didn't shoot at the guard tower windows did you?

SK: No, no. Because I remember they used to be, I think it was still inside the camp, there used to be cottonwood trees or a bunch of trees on the north side of the other end of our, our barracks. There used to be a bunch and we used to go out there and there used to be night hawks and things like that. And I got pretty good at using a sling shot too.

Off Camera: What did you make your slingshots out of?

SK: You know, I do not remember what we used as the rubber. I...

RP: Guayule.

SK: Yeah, I don't, I don't remember.

RP: Do you remember what, remember the guayule?

SK: Uh-uh.

RP: Oh, those were rubber plants that they were growing in the camp.

SK: Oh, okay.

RP: It was a special project.

SK: Oh.

RP: And they manufactured small sink stoppers and some other things but...

SK: You know, I think we got those, you know we got old, I'm pretty sure it was old tubes, from the military, the trucks. I think we got the tube portion... and you cut 'em in small strips. I'm pretty sure that's what we used as the, as the rubber portion.

RP: So you were able to, you were able to hit birds with those?

SK: Oh, yeah. Yes, we, most of us kids at that time got pretty good at it, yeah.

RP: Those birds haven't forgotten that either. They're still there. Well, your block still has a fair number of cottonwood trees. A new generation but...

SK: Yeah, the last time we went there in October I don't remember as many trees. I thought there were more than that before. So it kind of surprised me how bare it was.

RP: Though you had a little bit of shade out there then.

SK: Yes. Yeah, there were, I mean, there was shade to the north. I remember that. There was shade toward the pig farm. Let's see. Toward Mount Whitney, not as much. And on the other side going toward 395, nothing. But north and south seemed like there was more cottonwood trees or whatever kind of trees it...

<End Segment 15> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 16>

RP: Right across the road from you was a large area. It used to be called a shepherd ranch and there was a lot of cottonwood trees there and still are.

SK: Oh, okay. Yeah.

RP: There was an area called North Park at the time the camp was there. There was a barbeque and people would go and picnic there.

SK: Oh, okay.

RP: Apparently one gentleman also had caged a number of wild animals there and had a zoo.

SK: Yeah, yeah, I don't remember.

RP: Les actually talked about that.

SK: Okay.

RP: Les said he actually captured magpies and other birds and raised them in the camp so.

SK: Oh yeah, that's right. There was a whole bunch of magpies and yeah, and people used to trap rabbits and things like that with snare traps and things. Now it comes... see, those are things that I just didn't remember but it comes back to me when you mention it.

RP: Uh-huh.

SK: Yeah, we used to make those little traps. Even when I was that young.

RP: Really? How did you make those?

SK: We used to use little, like a willow tree or whatever, a green one. And put a, and then I think we used to use a little diamond shaped string with a trigger on it. And when they went into it, boink, it went up and caught 'em. And, oh, that's right, and the older, the older people or the grownups used to capture little, I mean, they used to get birds but not kill 'em, to just put 'em in a cage for people, with those little nets. The birds would fly into 'em, yeah, and they get their, they get caught inside there and then they take 'em out of there and put, made 'em as pets. Yeah. That's right.

RP: Yeah. There was, seems like there was a very strong impulse to have a pet there.

SK: Right, yeah. And then they, they had those colorful like... it weren't, they weren't sparrows. They were something else. I mean, they were colorful. Not the garden variety sparrow, English sparrows. It, they were something else. Anyway, yeah. I remember that too, now.

RP: Interesting.

<End Segment 16> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 17>

RP: You mentioned about having a horizontal bar?

SK: Yes.

RP: In your block?

SK: Yes.

RP: Where was that located, do you...

SK: And that was located right next to the bathroom. It was, I mean, away from it but it was right there. They had, I remember they had a, a pretty high one and a lower one. They had two. And we, most of us kids all started learning when we were pretty young. Learn how to do the horizontal bars. I got to the point where I was doing quite a bit of things. The only thing I couldn't do was what they call a fly-away or the giant. Right, I couldn't do the giant or I couldn't do the fly-away, but I could do most of the other things. Yeah, the kips and pullovers and...

RP: So did you have sort of a mentor or teacher who was sharing this with you or you just...

SK: No, the only mentors we had were the older kids. I mean, they would go out there and they would be working out on 'em so we'd just watch 'em and learn from that. And when they did the fly-away, they did have somebody spotting them. But I just never learned that. And I never did learn, like I said, the giant.

RP: That must have been really amazing to, to watch somebody doing giants and fly-aways at Manzanar.

SK: Yeah.

RP: You just...

SK: Yeah, yeah.

RP: It's all these barracks around and sort of a...

SK: I guess it was a way of releasing, if you want to call it, tension or what or having a good time. I mean that's, that's how people spent their time having fun. And I think you were saying something about... well, there was a basketball court. I remember that, on the end of the block. I mean, it, not the... yeah, the end of the block toward the firebreak. And I think the older kids used that. And I do remember that they had a baseball diamond in the firebreak. 'Cause that's, that's where I remember Dad playing baseball.

RP: In the firebreak.

SK: Right. They had it on one corner of the firebreak.

RP: So, he was on a, a block team? Would have been a block team?

SK: I'm gonna say yes but... that's what I would gather.

RP: And later on they had a formal baseball diamond between Block 25 and Block 19.

SK: Yeah, I don't know. They may have had.

RP: But your dad played baseball pretty regularly there?

SK: Yes.

RP: So that was a way of him kind of coping with things a little better.

SK: Right. Right.

RP: Did you also, there were groups of kids that got into weightlifting too.

SK: Yeah you know I, there may have been but I don't remember where they had that or who did it. Because I never did get into weightlifting. I didn't do... God, when, when did I... I don't, I didn't get into weightlifting until later on.

RP: Were there any other items that you wandered around camp collecting? Some kids collected arrowheads, some stones. Anything that caught your interest during the time you were...

SK: Hmm.

RP: ...in camp. Well you collected marbles.

SK: Yeah. I don't, I don't remember any other interesting things, I mean collection items. I don't remember.

RP: You said that you were, you became a master slingshot artist.

SK: No, not a master but I was pretty good at it.

RP: What kind of birds did you, did you actually...

SK: No they were like... you brought up the point of magpies and things like that and there used to be this... one of the birds that I remember specifically was the night... wait a minute. Was it called the night owl?

RP: Or was it night hawk?

SK: Night hawk?

RP: Yes, there are...

SK: Gray, kind of a gray thing that... yeah. I don't know why we picked on them. But I remember, I remember one that I hit but I kept him as a pet because I broke its wing so I kept him for a pretty long time.

RP: Was that a night hawk?

SK: Yeah. And they eat worms and things, you know, the earthworms. They're, I guess they were like meat eaters.

RP: So you had to go collect worms?

SK: Yeah.

RP: Where was the best place to get worms in camp?

SK: Well you had to go into those woods area and dig in the soft spots. You couldn't find it in the, near the barracks.

<End Segment 17> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 18>

RP: Shig, do you recall what your father did in camp to pass the time, besides baseball?

SK: Yes, well I don't know how he learned it but he learned to fix refrigeration units and worked at the hospital taking care of the refrigeration units. And that much I knew. I think he was saying something about earning sixteen dollars a month or something like that. I think that's what he told us. And Mom, let's see, I think she, I think Mom worked at the store, the, where they sold the clothing and the other things.

RP: Canteen?

SK: Yes.

RP: There was a dry goods store and there was a canteen.

SK: I'm trying to remember if it was... I thought there was a clothing or canteen.

RP: It might have been dry goods.

SK: It was kind of a variety store. The one that she worked at. And that was across the firebreak from 27 on the south side I think.

RP: Right, 21 was the dry goods store.

SK: I don't know what, what block it was but it was going south I think.

RP: Yeah, that would have been just south.

SK: Okay. She did work in there, that's right, for...

RP: Did you visit the canteen at all to buy soda or ice cream?

SK: No.

RP: No? Never did?

SK: I don't remember going there to buy anything.

RP: How about your grandparents? How did they pass the time at Manzanar?

SK: God, I think they kind of just socialized with the other older people. I don't remember them work... I know that they didn't work. I think they had kind of a meeting hall or something in the, in the block someplace that, where they used to meet and just socialize. Aside from that, I don't remember. They never did say too much about what they did in camp.

RP: Now you, you grew up on a, in sort of an isolated farm environment in Florin. And suddenly you're thrust into this camp, one square mile, ten thousand Japanese Americans, and how did you take to that?

SK: I don't know. I thought, well, like I said, I had fun in camp. It didn't impact me one way or another. It had a lot of people around. And so everything as far as I was concerned was...

RP: Your world was...

SK: Yeah, a new experience and everything.

RP: Were there any adults or older people that you kind of sort of gravitated to or, or aroused your curiosity or...

SK: Hmm, not that I could remember. I really didn't.

RP: Now your parents were Nisei.

SK: Yes.

RP: I mean, they were kind of young adults. And did you ever see any type of expression of anger or bitterness towards, to the country of their birth for having created a situation where they no longer were on their farm? They were in a, in a camp. Their rights had been taken away.

SK: I don't remember anything like that but I remember that Dad tried to volunteer for the army when we got into camp. But they didn't take him because he had five kids already. Yeah. So, he couldn't have been that, yeah, he couldn't have been that old. I mean, he was probably in his late twenties, someplace in that neighborhood. But, like I said, he had, they, they said, "No, you're 4-F because you're married and have a lot of kids." If there were any bitterness of that situation, it didn't come out until later on. I mean, but he was never what you call real bitter about it. He just didn't think it was right. That's the thing. Because he was a United States citizen. So he didn't feel like he should have been put in a camp for something that he had nothing to do with. And I think that's about the extent of his feelings.

RP: How about school at Manzanar? You mentioned to me when we talked last time, you said you didn't learn a whole lot but you made a lot of friends.

SK: Yeah. Well, that's the thing, I don't remember learning a whole bunch at school. But, like that, that picture I brought in, if that was one class, that's about forty kids in a class and at first grade or second grade class, I mean, that poor teacher didn't have too much time to give individual attention and I probably needed a whole bunch of it at that time. So I don't remember learning a whole bunch there, I really don't. I think it was probably a one-room environment but I don't know.

RP: How long did you take judo in camp?

SK: Like I said, I don't think I took it very long. I remember that, I don't know why, but I remember that it was kind of mandatory for each kid to take judo. It wasn't something that we had the option. But whether we kept it up or not I know that I didn't take it for very long.

RP: Do you, do you remember anything about the riot or the incident that occurred towards the end of 1942 in the camp? There was a confrontation at the front gate between military police and internees.

SK: Yeah, no, I don't remember anything about that, only what my parents have told us. But they weren't specific as to what caused the riot or anything else. They all, they just said that there was a riot and let it go at that. So, we didn't know anything about it.

<End Segment 18> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 19>

RP: Now your father left Manzanar for farm work in Oregon.

SK: Yes he did. Yeah, he, he was, he knew how to prune trees or fruit trees and things like that so one time, I don't know when it was, he left and did farmwork up in Oregon. And then I think that was just about the time that we were gonna leave. Then he came back. And then I think he picked up the car from the friends of our family. And then he came back and then that's about the time we left and went to Gardena. And we stayed in Gardena at my, that was my grandmother's cousin. We stayed in Gardena for I think a few years. 'Cause we didn't go to, we didn't go to New Jersey until about '47.

RP: So, according to the camp records, you left Manzanar, your family left Manzanar the day before it closed, November 20, 1945. Do you have any recollections of what the camp was like in the last days or weeks?

SK: Oh yeah, I remember that. I mean, I don't remember specifically in details what it was, but I remember there was hardly anybody there. I mean, when we were leaving the camp in our car, there was nobody around. I mean the front gate there was nobody there. There was nobody in... I don't remember seeing anybody around the camp. I don't, I still remember that. And when you told me that we left the day before the camp or two days before the camp closed, I didn't realize it was that close to being closed.

RP: And you stayed, during the last few months that you were there, were you still in Block 27 or did you have to move to another block?

SK: No, we were, we stayed at Block 27 as far as I know.

RP: Some of the blocks were closed off because there was so few people in them.

SK: Yeah I don't remember moving into another block.

RP: How about the mess hall? Did you, did you eat in your block mess hall or did you have to go to another one?

SK: Oh no, we always ate at our, at our Block 27 mess hall. I remember that. And we always had the shift. They had people on an early shift and people that had a later shift. I think they so many shifts to eat at the mess hall. I remember that. But we always ate at the mess hall. As far as the food goes, I don't remember, it must have been all right. [Laughs.]

RP: Did you eat as a family or...

SK: Yes.

RP: ...amongst your friends?

SK: No, as a family. I remember that. We all went together when we went to the mess hall.

RP: That was, that was insisted upon by your parents?

SK: Probably our parents at that time. That's what I would say.

<End Segment 19> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 20>

RP: How about the latrines?

SK: Oh, those were, those were something. Yeah, it's like military type. You didn't have any privacy. 'Cause it was open bay as far as the shower bays go. So you learned, I mean, you couldn't be bashful, that's for sure, if you were gonna take a shower. I remember the floors were all concrete. But, yeah, they, that latrine was probably, well, it wasn't too, I don't know the distance. It wasn't too far away from the barrack, I mean, the home or whatever.

RP: Did you, do you recall the toilets having partitions at some point, later on in camp?

SK: Yeah, you know that's, that's the thing. I think there were partitions but I don't remember when they came up. Because, in fact, in our building that we lived in, I remember we kids were on the end of the building. There was a partition and then there was another partition... I think we had, I'm trying to remember if there were two partitions. And my parents were on the other side of one of them. I'm trying to think if we had three sections later on.

RP: You mean three separate rooms? Or...

SK: Yes.

RP: Or just one room divided by partitions?

SK: Well one room divided by partitions. That's what I'm thinking because it sure seemed like we, we were, our, all us kids were on one side and our parents were on another side and there was one other section. But I can't be sure.

RP: Do you recall what your room looked like later on in camp? Were there efforts made to improve the appearance of your room? Curtains, furniture, radios... did you see any kind of change in the overall look of that barrack?

SK: Yeah, well, this is the thing. We did get, we had curtains, I remember. We had linoleum on the floor. I think it was a red colored linoleum, kind of red or maroon. But I kind of remember that. And we also had, I thought we had sheetrock, but on the walls?

RP: Plasterboard?

SK: Yeah, plasterboard?

RP: Oh, yeah.

SK: I think we had plasterboard later.

RP: Yeah.

SK: And, radios? Maybe we had radios. I don't remember if we did or not.

RP: Furniture? Do you recall any furniture?

SK: Furniture, if we had it, it was probably handmade furniture that somebody made and gave to us, or Dad or Grandpa made. If they had the material they probably made it their selves, but I'm not sure. But I think we had, yeah, I think we had lanterns too, lamps, pole lamps. I think we did. I don't think we just had the lighting up on the fixtures.

RP: One light bulb.

SK: Yeah, I don't think we had just one light bulb. I'm not... yeah.

RP: Do you recall if you had a hotplate or something to cook on inside your room?

SK: You know, I'm not sure about that. We may have had.

RP: Any cellars underneath your barracks?

SK: Oh, well, you know that, we didn't have a cellar on ours I don't think. But I remember they, they put the board under there and some of them did make like cellars. But I don't remember if we had one.

<End Segment 20> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 21>

RP: So your father shows up in his 1935 Buick and takes you all back to Gardena.

SK: Right.

RP: And you left camp.

SK: Right.

RP: And, so you spent a little time in Gardena and then...

SK: Then we drove back to... I went to school one or two years in Gardena, and then we all piled in the car and went to New Jersey.

RP: Tell us, tell us about that, that journey. It was cross country all the way and...

SK: I don't remember the traveling and going across to New Jersey. I don't know why. I don't remember that. But I remember coming back. But, the journey across from west to east, I don't remember too much about it.

Off Camera: Do you know, does he know what his father did?

RP: Did your dad, was your dad with you in Gardena very much? I think you said he went back to Oregon, didn't he?

SK: Yes, yeah. When, when he, when we went to Gardena he went up to Oregon and worked again. And I think he was gone for close to a year. But I'm not sure how long it was. I mean he spent a, quite a long time up there working on the farm. And then he came back. Because it, after he came back it wasn't much longer and then we went to New Jersey.

<End Segment 21> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 22>

RP: Just a few more questions about Manzanar. You went in roughly when you were six or seven years old.

SK: Yes.

RP: And you left about ten, eleven.

SK: Yeah, if it's three years it's gotta be about ten years old, right.

RP: So did Manzanar ever feel like home to you?

SK: Feel like home. I guess so. I mean it was a place that we were living at the time so I would, I imagine I would consider it home, yes.

RP: And what, how were you when you left? I mean, did you feel like a different person after you left than when you went in? Was there something, whether it was felt independent or something else. I mean, I know you were only ten or eleven years old, but...

SK: No, I can't say that I felt any different. I don't think I even realized that anything really went on. I mean, being that young, I don't think I still understood what happened.

RP: What happened and that you were...

SK: Right, I mean and as far as I was concerned, my time there was pretty nice. So, I can't, yeah, I would say it was considered home.

RP: Do you know how your, how you made connections with Seabrook originally?

SK: Oh, yes.

RP: How did you end up going there?

SK: Well, my Uncle Bill and my Auntie Eleanor who is my dad's sister, and my grandfather and grandmother had already gone to Seabrook. They left the camp and went directly to Seabrook. I don't think my dad and mom really knew what they wanted to do at the time. So, anyway, after they were there a few years they, or maybe a year or some, they must have communicated with each other and told my mom and dad to come over to Seabrook. And I think that's when they kind of mulled it over and decided okay, we'll leave Gardena and go to Seabrook Farm. Because my dad really didn't have any kind of a job opportunity here in California. If anything, I would imagine we would have had to gone up to Oregon and work on the farm up there and I don't know if my mom would have wanted to go to Oregon. So, I think that was, after communicating like I said with my aunt and uncle and grandmother and grandfather, the decided to go to New Jersey.

RP: And your dad found work as a mechanic, originally there?

SK: Yes, uh-huh. Well, Seabrook Farm was one of these frozen food company that was doing, frozen food, I mean, making frozen food for Birdseye and they were also doing it for the military at that time and they wanted a whole bunch of hire-ees. And I don't know, I guess they got the impression, or they were impressed by the Japanese people that came over there and was working for them. So they hired a whole bunch of people and Dad had a little bit mechanical experience because of that, what he gained in camp. So he became a mechanic, fixing the conveyor belts and things like that. Yeah, he got hired doing that.

RP: Did he move up at all?

SK: Yes, he, I don't know how many years it took, but he eventually became a supervisor of the conveyor lines, all the maintenance work. He was the, I think, I don't know if he, I don't think it was swing shift. I think it was during the day shift that he worked. Yeah. And Mom, well she worked at the, at the snack bar for I don't know how many years. But she learned how to make those, what they call submarine sandwiches. Which was, I don't think it was known in the West Coast at the time, but it was called submarine sandwiches. Anyway, she did that. Then she became a housekeeper for the single people or single men that lived in dormitories. And eventually she also became a supervisor. Both of 'em were working. And it was comfortable there.

RP: Seabrook, from what I've read and heard from other people, it sounded like a, like an agricultural company town. Like... can you kind of give us a picture of what, what it was like out there? How it was set up? The landscape. There was a huge area devoted to, to actually growing crops.

SK: Yes, you know, well, Seabrook Farms actually was a community like, I'm gonna say, in a way setup like a military barracks. The same way as the buildings were made in camp, at Manzanar. But they weren't made out of lumber. They were cinderblocks. And each building had five, yeah, they had five families in each one of those. And they were kind of made in a circle. All the way, with the community center in the middle. They had a, a shoe shop in one area and then on the other side of the circle they had a school. And then on the other side of that there were some individual homes. But in essence, all the farming that was done for Seabrook was not within the area itself. They did farming all the way down to Maryland. It was, they, they farmed all different areas. And they grew rhubarb, lima beans, beans, and some other vegetable, maybe spinach, I'm not sure. But they canned all those. The person named Seabrook, I guess he was a pretty big farmer at the time or whatever or frozen food company person at that time.

RP: You were making a comparison between what you left at Manzanar a few years earlier and what, how things were set up at Seabrook. Can you, can you describe what, what kind of accommodations did you have within those rooms? How were the rooms set up?

SK: Oh the rooms were, let's see, yeah, in, in each one of those rooms it had three bedrooms. It had three bedrooms, three separate bedrooms. It had a kitchen and it also had a living room or family room, whatever you want to call it. So it was set up nicely. The only thing is it didn't have air-conditioning. Which, you needed in New Jersey in the summertime. It's terrible. The humidity in the East Coast is terrible. Yeah. Without air-conditioning, it's pretty tough. But otherwise it was set up pretty nicely.

RP: So it was quite a step up from, from where you were?

SK: Oh, yes. A lot of difference. Yeah. I, that much I can attest to. I mean, there is no comparison.

<End Segment 22> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 23>

RP: Now, were Japanese, Japanese Americans, the many folks that worked at Seabrook, were they housed in a separate area from other ethnic groups that worked in Seabrook?

SK: Well, you know, it was funny, because you bring that up... when we first moved there it was typically all Japanese people. But then later on, well, the Japanese Peruvians came, okay. And they lived in a separate area because what they had to do was expand the living area and I think that's what they did. They built more buildings. And then later on they had Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanian... all the small satellite countries of Russia immigrated over there too and worked in Seabrook. So it was kind of a mixed race type of development or community.

RP: Some folks refer to it as a global village.

SK: Yeah, okay. Well that's a good term.

RP: Well, I just stole that from somebody else.

SK: Oh yeah, yeah. It had, it had a lot of different ethnic groups.

Off Camera: I'm sorry, Japanese Peruvians?

RP: Yeah, Japanese Peruvians, we don't know exactly if they came out of a camp or a lot of them lived or were brought into the country and were incarcerated at Crystal City which was an internment camp run by the Justice Department. So, but anyway, they were, they were recruited into Seabrook. And you actually had a good friend...

SK: Right, well, and this friend named, that one Jim Mukuyama, if I'm not mistaken, he had indicated that they were in a camp during the war. And he was a Japanese Peruvian. So I don't know where he was interned or what.

Off Camera: What was your language? What language did you share with him?

SK: No, they spoke perfect English. Yeah, it wasn't Spanish or it wasn't you know whatever. So I don't know.

RP: I want to get his name down for sure. As M-U-K-U-Y-A-M...

SK: Y-A-M-A.

RP: Jim.

SK: Uh-huh. Now, if I'm not mistaken, he moved to L.A. but I lost with him.

RP: Were you, did the family rent the housing at Seabrook or was that provided? Do you recall?

SK: I don't recall that. But I think it was provided for them, but I'm not sure. The only that probably wasn't provided, I mean if, I know that they just bought their groceries and everything else because there was a grocery store right there in Seabrook. It was a big grocery store. Like I said, whether they paid I'm not sure.

<End Segment 23> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 24>

RP: This is a continuing interview with Shig Kihara. We're on tape three. And Shig, according to a memoir that was written about life, dormitory life in Seabrook, this gentleman referred to an area of Seabrook known as Hoover Village or Hoover Annex. Is that where you lived?

SK: No, no. We lived in the old part, or the main part of the village. Now, I remember hearing that term Hoover Village referred to, but I'm trying to think if that was where the Peruvians lived, okay, which was, like I said, it was an additional area, living area that they added as they hired more and more people. I think that's what it was.

RP: Did you have, did your section where you lived, was there a number or a dormitory number that went along with that?

SK: There was a number on each one of the homes, yes. I don't remember what number ours was now. I don't know why, but I don't remember.

RP: They didn't call them blocks?

SK: No, they weren't called blocks.

RP: Did you have any issues or problems that were associated with making a transition from Manzanar, or I should say, from Gardena where you lived, to Seabrook?

SK: No, I don't remember having any kind of a problem. You know, the transition was, seemed like it was real easy. I don't know, if there was any bias or anything to Asian people, I'll put it that way. In the East Coast, it didn't show up. See, there was not that kind of feeling over there. It was because we, when we went to school and everything, none of that showed up.

RP: Did you feel a sense of being welcomed by...

SK: Yes, I think... yes.

RP: From the company as well as...

SK: Right, I think my parents even felt that way.

RP: Some Japanese Americans who were there at Seabrook consider it, or they term their experience there as a "fresh start."

SK: That's a good way of putting it, because like I said, I don't think that they, or I'll put it, we felt the animosity or whatever you want to call it during that time, because on the West Coast, Dad couldn't find a job. And when he went to, we'll say downtown Sacramento and went into a Woolworth's, they wouldn't even serve him. and this was after the war. They wouldn't serve him, they wouldn't do anything. And like I said, you didn't run into that kind of situation in the East Coast.

RP: So that kind of treatment made Seabrook look even more appealing.

SK: Yes, it did.

RP: From an ethnic point of view as well as an economic point of view like you said, he had no real prospects other than seasonal farmwork.

SK: Right.

RP: So maybe for your family as well as others, it was a new beginning.

SK: Yes, it was. I believe that. I mean, I think it was a real good beginning for a lot of people that were... well, you could look at it in a sense that they lost everything during the war, they didn't have anything to come back to here in California, or they didn't have anything to look forward to in California. And so when they went to New Jersey, they had a new beginning. This person or the company was willing to hire them and give 'em fair wages, a decent living area, and everything. So yes, you could call it a new beginning.

<End Segment 24> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 25>

RP: What type of social life did you have in Seabrook?

SK: Well, you know, the social life in Seabrook was really, it's funny. In Seabrook, okay, I was working fifteen... at that time, my social life was with my buddies, most of the guys, and I hung out with certain guys all the time. We did, we went fishing, we went swimming, we did everything together. It was a real good social life. But my dating was a funny thing because I never dated Asian girls over there. I dated nothing but Caucasian girls, and that's another thing. I don't think here in the West Coast that would ever happen, not during that time.

RP: And that was acceptable to your parents?

SK: Yes, and it was acceptable to the girls' parents. So that was another thing. When I was going to high school, I dated a Caucasian girl and took her to the prom. And her parents didn't say anything, I mean, they accepted me. So like I said, I don't believe during that time they would have been acceptable.

RP: On the West Coast.

SK: Yes, on the West Coast. So my social life was, it was good. I mean, it was nothing serious as far as the dating things go, but hanging out with my buddies, it was great.

RP: So as far as recreational opportunities, what was provided at Seabrook for that? Were there baseball diamonds, basketball courts?

SK: Oh, yeah. The baseball diamonds were available, the basketball courts were available. In fact, in basketball, we played in the... let's see, Police Athletic League, PAL, they have, they had this on the West Coast, I believe, too, but we played against teams that were from Philadelphia and Delaware, they came from quite a bit of different places. Bridgeton, New Jersey, which is right near us at that time. But we played a lot of Caucasian teams. We were kind of a pickup team, I mean, we practiced but we didn't really practice hard. So they would beat the heck out of us anyway. [Laughs]

RP: Where did you attend school?

SK: I went to the grammar school at the Seabrook Farms. The school was, I'm going to call it a big brick multi-level school. I mean, I don't know how long it was there, but when we got there, it was there. And so I attended grammar school there, and then I went to Bridgeton High School. I don't remember going to junior high school, I don't think there were.

RP: And as opposed to your educational experience in Manzanar, how did this rate, going to grammar school at Seabrook?

SK: I remember being, I can remember some of the things in grammar school. I believe it was a lot better in everything.

RP: More motivated?

SK: Right, yes.

RP: How about the teachers? Where were the teachers from?

SK: They had to have been from all over that New Jersey. I mean, I don't think it was just from the Bridgeton or Vineland, there was, just from the surrounding areas, I think they were from all over. I don't remember seeing any Asian teachers.

RP: Was there a particular teacher that really motivated you or inspired you?

SK: No, I don't remember any.

RP: How about in high school?

SK: No, I really don't remember any specific one. I don't think I paid that much attention to it.

<End Segment 25> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 26>

RP: Now, Bridgeton, was Bridgeton located south of Seabrook, or north?

SK: Let's see, wait a minute now. I believe it was south, because you had to go Camden the other way, and Camden would have been north, going north. I'm going to guess at it being south.

RP: What type of community was Bridgeton?

SK: You know, it was a small city, it wasn't what you'd call a big city. I would say it was smaller than the town of Rockland. I mean... well, you don't know Rockland. Let's see, I'm going to say someplace in the neighborhood of fifteen, twenty thousand, maybe more. It wasn't a very big city.

RP: Was it an agricultural community or a working class?

SK: It was working class, but I don't know what type of industry drove the city. That I'm not sure.

RP: And was it predominately Caucasian or were there other minorities?

SK: No, I think it was primarily Caucasian. Because when I played football on the... I played in my, that's right, I played in my ninth grade, tenth grade, I played three years at Bridgeton High School. And I remember most of the people were all Caucasians except one black. I remember him because he was something like about 6'7" or 6'8", but they recruited him from another high school to play football. But otherwise, it was primarily Caucasian. And one of my best buddies was a Caucasian person that lived in Seabrook, and his name was Harry Hoffman. So there weren't, I don't think there was any other nationalities that I remember then.

RP: Talking with Lester about his experience in that area, he said that that area was below the Mason-Dixon Line and that he saw outward evidences of separation between blacks and whites in the community. In other words, the blacks sat in the balcony in theaters, they were not allowed... well, on the buses they had to take back seats and that type of thing.

SK: See, I don't remember that. You know, Lester's about four years older than I am. I don't remember running into those kind of situations, because like I said, when we lived in Seabrook, I worked right along with the Jamaicans who were black and the Puerto Ricans who were, I think they were considered blacks, too, at that time. And we all worked together, and I don't remember them having to ride on the back of the bus. But he probably has a better memory than I do. [Laughs]

RP: Did you have access to medical service at Seabrook at all? Was there a hospital or some type of...

SK: Well, I don't remember there being a hospital per se in Seabrook. I think we had to go to Bridgeton. There may have been a clinic, but I sure don't remember it or I never had to use it.

RP: And were there organizations that developed at Seabrook specifically embracing Japanese Americans? I was thinking of Buddhist church or JACL chapter, do you recall?

SK: You know, this is the thing. I never paid attention to, like I said, to religion that much, and the JACL was never even part of my... yeah.

RP: How about Boy Scouts? Were you involved in...

SK: Yeah, well, they did have Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts and Girl Scouts, but I never, I was not one of those kind of people, that's all.

RP: Did you have an opportunity to, during the time you were in Seabrook, did you have an opportunity to travel around on the East Coast, visit Washington, D.C. or New York or get around and see the sights?

SK: Yes. You know, that was one of the things about going to school, and grammar school especially, okay. They always had field trips, and we were able to go Washington, D.C. and see the capitol, see all the buildings, went there. I don't... we never went to, I mean, they never went as far as New York, I don't remember that, but I do remember Washington. They always had those field trips every year.

RP: And that was in grammar school?

SK: Yes, that was grammar school, and I'm pretty sure that was up to sixth grade that they had that, because it wasn't in high school. I don't know, see, this is the thing. The space between, we'll say, sixth and ninth grade, is blank. I can't remember if that grammar school went all the way up to eighth grade, it may have gone all the way up to eighth grade, but I can't remember that. It must have gone to eighth grade because, like I said, I played football for the freshmen in Bridgeton High School.

RP: So your world opened up a bit while you were there.

SK: Yeah.

<End Segment 26> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 27>

RP: Let's talk a little bit about your work experience at Seabrook. How did you get into that, first of all, picking crops?

SK: Well, you know, it was funny, Seabrook had that... every summer, they hired schoolkids. And I remember being thirteen when I first started going out to the fields and picking beans, and we did that every summer. I mean, we picked beans every summer. And the money that I made, I gave to my parents, and I never kept any of it, and if I needed some money, they would give me some money. But we did that every summer, and it was kind of a social thing really. I think we worked maybe half a day or even less, and the rest of the day we goofed off. [Laughs] But it was fun. It was a good experience.

RP: How did you get out to the fields?

SK: On buses. They transported us every morning. I know it was early in the morning, and we didn't get back until dinnertime. And we carried our own lunches. But now when we did that, I can't remember if we went as far as Maryland. I don't think we went that far, but we traveled pretty far on some of those trips.

RP: Can you describe the work for us?

SK: Well, it was, the beans was grown in bush in rows, and what you did, you had to handpick 'em. And the goal was to pick as many baskets as you can because that's how you were paid, you were paid by the basketfull. So the more baskets you got, the more punchcards you... and each one of those punches on a card related to x-number of cents or whatever it was. But it was, when you're younger it didn't hurt you. It was kind of a backbreaking chore type because you're on your hands and knees picking those, unless you stood on your legs and bent all the way down doing it. But I didn't see too many people doing that. And it's... people that did it, they had whole families of, say, Jamaicans that came from Jamaica or Puerto Rico doing that, and that's how they made their living, I guess, to bring back to Jamaica or Puerto Rico. When they went back, they had the money just like the Mexican migrants we have here.

RP: Contract laborers.

SK: Right, right. But for us, it was going out there and having fun. [Laughs]

RP: So how many baskets... you remember?

SK: I don't remember. It had to be someplace about ten. You could pick quite a bit, because those bushes were full of beans. I mean, they were just loaded. And it was easy to pick.

RP: Did you have a quota that you had to reach?

SK: No, no. It was all piecework. And the more you picked or the more baskets you had, the more money you made, that's all.

RP: You mentioned the Jamaicans and the Puerto Ricans, do you ever remember hearing them sing out in the fields?

SK: Oh, yeah, they sang and they talked, but their language, I mean, the way that, like, a Jamaican speaks, it's really, I mean, it sounds like they're singing all the time. I don't know, I guess it's their accent or whatever, but they seem like they're always happy. Jamaicans more than Puerto Ricans, they always seem to be kidding around.

RP: Now were you expected to strip all the beans off of the plants or was there a second picking that came --

SK: Well, you know, you were supposed to pick 'em all, but the little guys, they didn't pick it. A lot of people missed 'em. So in most cases, these fields, they always had a second picking. But, you know, on the second picking, most of the regular migratory workers didn't want to do it because they couldn't make any money picking a second picking. I mean, there was hardly anything left. But you were expected to kind of strip the vines, or the bushes, not the vine, bush.

<End Segment 27> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 28>

RP: So later on you became one of the people who punched the...

SK: Yes. See, then I didn't work on, I worked on an hourly basis, so I didn't have to worry about piecework anymore. I don't know how much I made an hour, but it was a nominal fee. It was enough to make during the summertime.

RP: And that was your first job, true job?

SK: Yes, uh-huh. Yeah, that's what I did. Well, I started, like I said, about thirteen years old.

RP: And how long did you pick, how many years?

SK: Well, probably until I was about fifteen or sixteen, and then I became a puncher for a few years 'til we moved back. Because we were too young to work in the factory. I think you had to be eighteen, but I'm not sure. We never, I never was able to work there, I know that.

RP: Did you visit the factory?

SK: Oh, yes.

RP: Can you share with us what it was like to be in that building?

SK: Well, it was kind of a hustle bustle, I mean, everything, and noisy because of the conveyor belts. But they would process the vegetables, and they would go into a cleaning thing and they would cook it. After they cooked it, then they would put it in a container, and then it would go into a conveyor, and then they loaded it off of a conveyor belt onto these racks where each container was stacked up, and then they put it into a freezer. It was kind of hectic. There was a lot of, most of the women did, like, the sorting and things like that, and then the men, well, they would be pushing around carts and doing things. And anytime any of the machinery broke down, there would be a mad, you know, dash to get it fixed.

RP: Your dad would be there trying to...

SK: Yeah, yeah. They didn't, those machines, we didn't stay down very long, I know that. I remember that.

RP: Did your grandparents work at Seabrook, too?

SK: You know, I don't remember my grandfather or my grandmother working. My grandfather may have, but I know my grandmother never did. She was a stay-at-home person. And you know, I'm trying to remember, they didn't live with us, and they didn't live with Uncle Bill and Auntie, so they stayed by their self someplace. And I can't remember where it was now.

RP: You had a new addition to the family while you were at Seabrook?

SK: Yes. Yeah, that was the youngest sister, Fay. She was the last one. I don't know, I don't know if it was an accident or what. [Laughs] I'm not sure. After six of us already.

RP: Share with us some of your impressions and memories of some of the other groups that were in, ended up at Seabrook, the Estonians, the Latvians.

SK: Yeah. You know, when they brought those people over, it was during that, when the Cold War was going. And they were being persecuted so they brought 'em over, but most of the people that came over during that time were professional people. They were schoolteachers, lawyers, doctors, nurses or whatever. But the only sad part about that was that when they came over here into the United States, they couldn't practice their profession. So it was really tough on them, I remember that. It was tough on a lot of 'em. And they stayed -- so what happened was they stayed in Seabrook for I don't know how long, I can't say the timetable. But a lot of them, after being there for a while, moved out. They didn't stay around very long, which was, you know, I guess it's only right. And another thing, I think the language barrier had something to do with that, too. Even if they tried to get into the profession, it would have been pretty tough without the command of the English language.

RP: Do you recall any African Americans working other than the Jamaicans?

SK: No, I don't remember that.

RP: Germans, Polish?

SK: Well, wait a minute. There had to be some different nationalities there because in Seabrook there were Caucasian families there. But what nationalities, I don't know. Because I remember going out with one... I used to go around with a Caucasian girl, and her last name was Mills. Mills, is that a... I don't know what nationality...

RP: She was from Seabrook?

SK: Yes, she lived right in one of the homes that they had there. They may have been different nationalities.

<End Segment 28> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 29>

RP: So when did you, what year you left, the family left Seabrook?

SK: I think we left in 1953.

RP: And did you leave as a whole unit, or did somebody leave first and kind of set things up?

SK: You know, two of my sisters, I think, flew back. And the only reason we moved back, really, my parents didn't want to leave Seabrook. They were just happy being, staying there. But my grandfather and grandmother and my Uncle Bill and Auntie Eleanor had already moved back to Sacramento, and they wanted them to come back. So anyway, when the decision came to move back, I think two of the kids flew back, and then there was, well, there was five... seven of us in the car, and we drove back. Well, we kind of took a roundabout way to get back to California. We went up to Buffalo, New York, first, and took in Niagara Falls. And then we went across to, we went across the border to Canada, dropped back at Michigan or whatever it was, the Great Lakes area, then went to Mt. Rushmore and took in Mt. Rushmore. And then we stopped at Yellowstone, and then we came down through Utah and came across.

RP: How long did that take?

SK: I don't remember, but it was a long time. But at that time I could drive.

RP: Oh, you did?

SK: Yeah, I was eighteen.

RP: Had you graduated from Bishop High School?

SK: No, I had one year left because I got behind of that school thing.

RP: And how did you feel about leaving Seabrook? It sounded like you got very well-adjusted.

SK: Yeah, I didn't really look forward to coming back either. I think all of us kids were happy over there. We were adjusted, we had our friends, we had everything we needed, so we didn't know what we were coming back to over here.

RP: What did you come back to over here?

SK: Well, at the beginning we didn't have anything. My father and mother didn't have a job. We did move into a two-story home, I think it was Eleventh and F Street. Anyway, and then my parents or my uncle... not my uncle, my grandmother and grandfather said, "Buy a store," so they bought a grocery store which happened to be for sale. And they got into the grocery business. But that's when Mom's experience of making submarines came in handy, because I think they were one of the first grocery stores in Sacramento -- I'm just about willing to bet -- that started selling sandwiches in grocery stores, and she used to make those submarines. She used to make about nine dozen a day.

RP: You were sharing with me about some of the people that kind of got addicted to those sandwiches.

SK: Yeah, well, the people where my sisters used to work was the Department of Motor Vehicles, and Suburban Ford, which was down the street from their store, the Almond Association, Almond Growers Association right there, and then all the city garbage workers used to stop there every afternoon. Their trucks would line up during their lunch period. And Mom would have everything ready for them, they have the meat cut, they have all their mayonnaise and mustard and relish or whatever they wanted, all put away for them. They were, they were pretty busy just selling sandwiches. I think their grocery business was a side business. Because it was a Pop and Mom store, and the only people that would shop there, it would be something that they just needed on the spur of the moment. But the area that they had the store at was all Italian. And Mom and Dad made real good friends; I mean, they were lifelong friends after they got to know each other. They were really great.

RP: That really helped the, them settle...

SK: The transition back, yes.

RP: The transition back to the West Coast.

SK: It really helped them, yes.

<End Segment 29> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 30>

RP: Like you were sharing earlier, some of those animosities and historic prejudices. Did you experience any of that personally when you came back?

SK: No. By then, we didn't experience... well, if it was there, it wasn't on the surface, I mean, it didn't come out at us. It might have been subtle type. It wasn't the type that they would be calling you "Japs" or something like that, no. We didn't experience that. Maybe the grownups did, but we sure didn't.

RP: Did Uncle Sam eventually catch up with you?

SK: Well, Uncle Sam never did catch up with me. What I did was after I was working at McClelland's in an apprenticeship thing, I just volunteered for three years of military service. But that was a real good experience, too. They put me through electronics school, then I got to go to Germany or Europe and came back and finished my apprenticeship at McClelland Air Force base and worked there for thirty-six and a half years counting military time.

RP: What was your primary position?

SK: Well, the primary when I first started was in electronic repair, but we did all the repair work for all, what they call the landing approach systems for the aircraft, the ILS, the TCA, the Taquan, well, like the Taquan was the equipment that aircraft uses to fly from point A to Point B and they keep going, and they can get across the United States. They may have something a little bit different, but that's what they primarily used. And then the GCA was a radar pinpoint landing system, and the ILS is something they still use. But anyway, I worked twenty years on the bench, and then after that I came in the quality section and finished out my career there, in the quality section. It was a good career. I was able to retire with a good pension and didn't have to wait until I was sixty-five. [Laughs] I got to retire when I was pretty young.

RP: What was resettlement like for the rest of your sisters?

SK: You know, I think they didn't... I was kind of an outside type of person, but my sisters are real open and easygoing. They make friends right away, so when we came back, they went into the Buddhist Church area, and the basketball athletic type of thing. So they made friends right away.

RP: Sports was a way to...

SK: Right, they didn't have any problems with boys or anything else, all the sisters. It was easy for them. [Laughs]

<End Segment 30> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 31>

RP: Did your grandparents ever become naturalized citizens when they had the ability to do that?

SK: Yes, I think my grandmother did. She was... boy, I'm just going to say pretty old by then, when she became naturalized. But I remember it was after we came back, so I'm going to say she was probably in her seventies or maybe a little earlier, but she seemed like it was about the seventies. And she never had a real command of the English language, but if you spoke to her, she could understand most of the things you said. And she would answer you in English, so it was great. Like I said, they never forced any Japanese on us, and my grandparents never spoke Japanese to us because we wouldn't understand.

RP: Were they also around to receive an apology and redress payment in the '80s?

SK: I believe they were. No, my grandmother was, okay? I don't believe my grandfather was. I think he had already passed away.

RP: What were... do you recall, did she have any feelings about that? What about the rest of the family as well? When that came about, it sort of rekindled that experience for many Japanese American families.

SK: I'm not sure. If it did, Dad... Mom never, if she thought about it, she kept it to herself pretty well, she didn't show her emotions that much. Dad... I'm not sure. I think it bothered him more than it bothered Mom, but he never would come out or say it. He never did say anything negative about it. If he did, he said it to my sisters, he didn't say it to me, and I don't think he would have even said it to them. I think he was a little bit bitter, but he never showed it to us kids. He may have spoken to other people his age, his friends or something, but not to his kids.

RP: And how did you feel about that, that whole movement and the apology payment?

SK: Well, you know...

RP: For you, it was, you were a young kid...

SK: Yeah, I, like I said, my camp experience was not a negative experience. I mean, it was, to me I was a kid, it was a fun time. When that came, well, it really, it was $20,000. I mean, my wife and I both got it and we just put it away and put it to good use. As far as the apology letter and everything goes, it's put away someplace. For my mom and dad, well, Dad had it framed and put on the wall. He had it framed on the wall at our house... well, his house, or my parents' house. For us, that letter is someplace, I don't know where. Maybe in the strongbox. [Laughs]

<End Segment 31> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 32>

RP: Have you attended any reunions in Seabrook?

SK: Well, yes. We attended that Seabrook Farms reunion last October, and that's the first time that, well, my sister Joanne, Shirley, and Fay and I and their spouses went to Las Vegas, but on the way to Las Vegas we stopped at Manzanar. And that was the first time for myself and my wife and my sister Shirley. And that stop at Manzanar was really, I mean, it was really nice. It kind of amazed me how well that the museum or the dedication or whatever is set up. And it was very impressive. But like I said, we did attend that Seabrook Farm reunion last year.

RP: What was that like for you?

SK: Well, it was nice, but in sixty years or fifty years, I mean, everybody's changed so much I couldn't recognize anybody. If they didn't have a nametag on, I wouldn't have known them from anybody. It was fun, though, it was fun. It was a nice gathering. I mean, they had a nice show, they had some skits and things like that, and they introduced different people, they had a nice dinner, a dance. And after talking with people that I knew by name, I kind of looked at their faces but I still had a hard time. But we reminisced about old times, so it was real nice. And I figure, well, they probably have one in two more years, so we'll plan to go to that one, and probably before we go down again we'll stop at the museum again. And what I'd like to do probably one time is on the way to Disneyland or something, I'd like to take the grandkids down there and show 'em.

RP: So you've never been to Seabrook itself?

SK: No, never have. We always, with the sisters and everything, we always talked about it, but we never did go back. From what I understand, Seabrook Farms itself is pretty well... I don't know who lives there now, but the people that lived there at the time we were there, most of 'em are all scattered out through that area or most of 'em are gone, too. So I don't know. It would be nice to just go see it.

RP: I guess there's still three to five hundred Japanese American residents in the area, Bridgeton,

SK: Yeah, Bridgeton and Vineland are that... Deerfield, that's right. Deerfield, Bridgeton, Deerfield is the one that I was trying to think of earlier, which is just, I'm going to say, I think it's north of it. But anyway, that was a small town right outside of Seabrook Farm, probably about not even ten miles. I don't even think Bridgeton was about ten miles, I'm not sure. I remember that person that had the reunion, Seabrook Farm reunion, I believe she was from Deerfield or that area, that lady.

RP: I guess they went ahead and developed a cultural center out there, education center, sharing some of the stories of Japanese Americans during that time, and other groups as well. But I think you summed it up pretty good earlier talking about how that gave so many families sort of a new beginning.

SK: Yeah. I don't know, like I said, camp experience wasn't bad, and my time at Seabrook was really great, too. I have no bad memories of either places really. One because I was too young, and the other one, well, we were growing up teenage time, so it was nice.

RP: So did you get into any real trouble at Seabrook?

SK: No, no. We had the same type of, mischievous type of things that we did, you know, as most teenagers did, but we never got into serious problems. Never had to worry about anything like that, serious. Most of the time it was just spent having a good time.

RP: That's a noble pursuit. Any other stories or memories you'd like to share about anything we've talked about this morning that we haven't touched on?

SK: No, I think we covered just about everything.

RP: Well, Shig, it's been great hearing about your life and your experiences, and thank you so much for sharing it with us. On behalf of us and the Park Service --

SK: Well, I thank you for having me. I mean, I really appreciate it, and I felt more comfortable than I thought I would be.

<End Segment 32> - Copyright &copy; 2011 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.