<Begin Segment 1>

AL: Today is Tuesday, the 10th of August, 2010. We are at the Cal -- excuse me -- the Main Street Station Hotel with Arthur and Kimi Ogami to continue an oral history that covered Arthur's life that was done by Richard Potashin on September 9th, 2004. So today we're going to talk with you about your experiences after the war and with Kimi about some of her experiences in Japan. And before we get started I just want to make sure that we have your permission to use your oral history interview for education and for historic purposes at Manzanar?

AO: Yes, you have our permission.

AL: Is that alright with you, Kimi?

KO: Sure.

AL: Okay. So first, like I said earlier, we're not going to repeat all the stuff you told us before but I just want to get some just brief details about your lives. So Arthur, if you could tell me your full name and date of birth?

AO: My name is Arthur Kazuya Ogami, my birthdate is April 10, 1922.

AL: So your middle name is Kazuya?

AO: My middle name is Kazuya.

AL: Okay, so is Mitsuru your brother or is that another one of your names?

AO: Mitsuru was originally my middle name. And before we went to Japan, the Spanish embassy had asked my father to change the spelling of our name Okami to Ogami so that the sound of our surname would correspond with the character, the kanji that it's always pronounced Ogami. But when my father first entered the United States, Okami was more easily pronounced by these Caucasian friends that he had done business, with so the spelling was O-K-A-M-I.

AL: But in Japan the proper pronunciation would be Ogami with a G?

AO: Yes.

AL: That's proper, okay. And, Kimi, what is your full name and date of birth?

KO: My birthday is January 4, 1928. I was born in Fukuoka, Japan. Fukuoka is one of the sixth biggest cities in Japan.

AL: And what is your full name? Kimi, what is your maiden name? Before you married Arthur, what was your name?

KO: Kimiko Tawara.

AL: How do you spell that?

KO: T-A-W-A-R-A. So we get married we don't use that name.

AL: So your full name, though, is Kimiko?

KO: Uh-huh.

AL: And what does that translate as?

KO: Well, Chinese character write my name, the ki means "happy," mi is "beautiful," ko is "child." Most of the girls named Kimiko, Emiko, Sachiko like that but nowadays quite a bit different.

AL: Does your, Arthur, your Japanese name what does it translate as?

AO: Actually my Japanese name Kazuya actually means "family."

KO: One.

AO: One family.

AL: Okay.

AO: Ka is --

KO: No, Kazu.

AO: Kazuya.

KO: Yeah, that mean "one family."

AO: One family. See ka is house.

KO: No, your name is... he doesn't know Japanese.

AL: Okay, well, you know what? When we finish we'll do another interview and get it correct. But I wanted to if we could, Kimi, get some background information on your life in Japan because we have Arthur's family history from 2004. So what are the names of your parents, your mother and father?

KO: My father's surname is Tawara, so my mother got married so she changed it. My father's first name is Morio.

AL: How do you spell that?

KO: M-O-R-I-O.

AL: Okay, and your mother's name?

KO: Michiko.

AL: Do you know her maiden name?

KO: Sajikibara.

AL: How do you spell that?

KO: S-A-J-I-K-I-B-A-R-A.

AL: Do you feel like you're on a spelling bee, like a spelling contest? In Japan, what sort of business or how did they make their livelihood in Japan? Were they farmers or merchants?

KO: My father was a, work in a big electric company, so I assume he got to retirement. Those days most average woman never worked unless professional, unless real poor.

AL: And how many children are in your family, brothers and sisters?

KO: Three. Then I think, I know we had one older sister and one younger sister but those days quite a bit children died. You just get high fever, get sick and then you just, you know. But nowadays those things doesn't happen.

AL: So the children, your brothers and sisters, what were their names? Did you have any brothers?

KO: My younger brother is Yukio, he's living, huh?

AO: Your younger brother passed away.

KO: Oh, yeah.

AO: Your older brother --

KO: Moritani, yeah, he's living.

<End Segment 1> - Copyright &copy; 2010 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 2>

AL: And your family in Japan, did you live in the city of Fukuoka?

KO: Yes.

AL: Big city? So what was city life like in Japan in the 19... early 1930s?

KO: 1930, you know, when I get six years old we went to kindergarten, not like over here. Not everybody went to kindergarten parents, first grade you have enter but no tuition. But I went to kindergarten, they had to pay, and sixth grade and after sixth grade, high school, it's not like America, you don't go to local. And then good high school has an entrance exam and then easy one has later one. They even have a Japanese song about it. [Laughs] But I went to aa good private school. And then mean you have to study no computer those days, pushing pencils bleed between the finger.

AL: How many hours a day did you go to school?

KO: Saturday is a half a day. Then weekdays six hours, four hours, and then I think it was two and a half hours in the afternoon.

AL: And how would you say your family's economic status was? Was your family wealthy or poor or in the middle?

KO: No, my family wasn't poor but my father had to work in office, big electric company so they were able to buy a house. And in those days, woman, housewife almost never worked, my generation before so she just stayed home.

AL: Did your family have traditions like was your family Buddhist or Shinto or any religious background?

KO: Yeah, most of them Buddhist but we don't go to church. Only time is a funeral, somebody died and that's the ceremony and then anniversary... and then cemetery is different.

AL: Did you celebrate things like Girl's Day in Japan?

KO: No, don't remember.

AL: No, you didn't have the dolls?

KO: Oh, yeah. I think it was, March was the Girl's Day, then decorate with all the dolls. And Boy's Day I forgot, May.

AL: May 5th.

KO: You know. [Laughs]

AL: I always know the Boy's Day. Actually Manzanar was established on March 3rd, which is Girl's Day in 1992 Girl's Day 1992. So it's kind of interesting 'cause you're born, Arthur, in 1922.

AO: Two, 1922.

AL: Okay, so both of you are children during the Great Depression.

AO: Yes.

AL: Right, the economics, and I'm curious about in Japan, what was the economy like when you were a child as far as the country as a whole?

KO: I don't know. I don't know anything about money, but my father, those days, housewife never worked as far as I see unless professional. And my father worked in a big electric company eight to five and he comes home and they're able to buy a house.

AL: So what kind of things would your mother do during the day?

KO: Just keep the house and cleaning and laundry. Those days they didn't have washing machine. [Laughs] She scrubs.

AL: Did you study any particular things like flower arranging or calligraphy or tea ceremony?

KO: Yes, after I graduate high school, nothing but good family daughter... some people professional went to work. Some people went to work to help the family but my flower arrangement teacher come to the house and teach me. And tea ceremony we went to nearby. I want to learn the piano but I practice the piano at the school.

AL: Were you... well, in the United States, of course a lot of what we see of Japan in the 1930s is the military, the rise of the military in Japan. And I've talked to some people, some of the Kibei who talk about, you know, in the morning that in the 30s when people would you know bow in the morning to the Tennouheika Showa, you know, those kinds of things. Were you aware of that in your school, like does that make sense? Maybe that was more for young boys.

KO: No, I don't remember. My father was, beginning was regular army officer and then I know during the war with Japan and China he was called in and he went to China about a year or so.

AL: Do you know what his rank was?

KO: He was a lieutenant, reserved officer, but then after that he went to work, after he came back he went to work for the big electric company.

AL: Do you know where he was in China?

KO: I remember Nanking and Beijing, Shanghai. I think I was maybe nine ten years old.

AL: Did you hear from him that year that he was away? Did he write or send telegrams when he was in China?

KO: I don't remember. And then my mother get up early in the morning, five o'clock, and kneel by a little shrine and pray for him to come back safely. But he wasn't regular army, he was called in with China Japan war. But he had a... I think, now I think about it he had a pay from electric company, he also get army pay... now when I think about it. I didn't know then.

<End Segment 2> - Copyright &copy; 2010 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 3>

AL: Did your family celebrate like the Tennouheika birthday? Or have a picture of the Tennouheika?

KO: Something.

AO: Well, in most Japanese family in Japan will have a picture of Tennouheika.

KO: No, I don't remember.

AL: Could you explain what Tennouheika means or who that is?

AO: Tennouheika is the emperor of Japan.

AL: See, in the United States we always just say Hirohito, Hirohito, which is very disrespectful right in Japan you would not say his name? Is that true?

AO: The proper way is to say Tennouheika.

KO: We know the name but Tennouheika.

AL: Right.

KO: But then even Tennouheika right down the line, not so smart. Meiji Tennou was very smart but Taisho Tennou is little cuckoo, everybody knows that. Parents talk about it, everybody but he didn't last long.

AL: So for people who might listen to this interview who don't know Meiji Taisho Showa, so Meiji is well we would know as the grandfather of the emperor Hirohito.

KO: Yes.

AL: And then Taisho is his father.

KO: He was a little cuckoo.

AL: Right.

KO: Everybody know that in Japan. And he was reading, what do you call it?

AO: Kokoko.

KO: Yeah, and he was supposed to read it and all of a sudden he rolled up and he looked for the girls. That's a famous story.

AL: Yes, I've heard that story.

AO: I was born in the year of Taisho and my father always mentioned that I was born Taisho Juuichinen, he eleventh year of emperor Taisho.

KO: Everybody, all the Japanese know he was little retarded. I mean, he was supposed to read a New Year's thing, all of a sudden he's reading, all of a sudden he rolled it up and looked for the girls. That's a famous story.

AL: Yes, I've heard that story.

KO: Meiji Tennou was a very smart. And a Showa... his wife was a commoner, you know that?

AL: Tell us about that. What do you know about the Tennouheika Showa and his wife?

KO: Meiji Tennou was very smart, Taisho Tennou everybody knows, all of a sudden he's reading, he's supposed to... all of a sudden rolled up and looked for the girls, that's a famous story but he didn't last... only last fifteen years.

AL: So you were born in the era of Showa.

KO: Showa.

AL: Which is we know Emperor Hirohito in this country.

KO: His wife was a commoner.

AL: So what did you think of, in your family, like how would a Japanese family think of the emperor in the 1930s, like is he a president or is he like the pope?

KO: Well, Tennouheika is Tennouheika. They respect him but Taisho Tennou is cuckoo, everybody knows that, but they still respect him.

AL: Did you ever see the Tennouheika Showa in Japan?

KO: Showa Tennou...

AL: You ever saw him?

AO: Yes, I did.

AL: You did?

AO: One day while I was there he was in his car, that's the Rolls Royce painted color is maroon. With the kikukamon, which is sixteen pedal of chrysanthemum, and everybody was bowing. But I had my camera and I took my camera quick and took a picture.

AL: Typical American. [Laughs]

AO: Which was a no-no but I did. I don't know if I still have that.

KO: Taisho Tennou was little...

AL: Yes.

KO: He's supposed to read the whatever, reading, all of a sudden roll it up and look for the girls, that's the famous story.

<End Segment 3> - Copyright &copy; 2010 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 4>

AL: So by the time, in your lifetime, though, you were born in Showa. And your dad was in the army, what did you know about, how did you hear about that you were at war with America? Like did you hear about Pearl Harbor?

KO: Yeah.

AL: What did you hear? Or how did you hear?

KO: News on the radio and then I was in high school. High school system is different you don't go to local, the good school has entry exam after sixth grade. Then I went to good school too and everybody parents had to pay the tuition. Private school tuition is a little higher. I went to private school, parents paying tuition they send us to the factory, you know, start worker.

AL: So you worked during the war?

KO: Yeah, then you have to catch up and I would study myself, they still had to pay the tuition.

AL: What kind of factory did you work in?

KO: I forgot, such a long time ago.

AL: Was that common for schoolchildren to work?

KO: My time just during the war 'cause all the worker were called in for the service.

AL: So how young of children, like at what age would you start working in a factory during the war?

KO: They ask, show the workers, so asked the school to send the student. I went to private school like I say private school tuition is higher.

AL: Right, yeah.

KO: And then good school has an entry exam first and then on down they even have a song about it.

AL: Right, so how did your life in Japan change during the war? Was your father still gone?

KO: My father was done with war with China.

AL: So he was not in the war with the United States?

KO: No.

AL: How did your life change as the result of the war?

KO: America?

AL: No, the war with America, right.

KO: Oh, I was in high school. Like I saidm I went to private school.

AL: Right.

KO: The tuition's higher than the public school.

AL: Right, better school.

KO: And then they send us to a factory quite a bit. We don't get paid.

AL: Right.

KO: We just... then we had to study alone.

AL: What did you think of America back then during the war? What did you think? Did you think anything about Americans?

KO: No.

AL: That someday you were going to marry one?

KO: No, I never thought about it. But when Japan lost the war, the rumor goes around American's going to come and take over and then the young girls they going to you know, take... rumor goes on so I was so scared, "Let's go out in country," but my parents said they couldn't do that. My father was still working and they didn't have the extra housing in the country or anything, just average family.

AL: So were you afraid of the Americans?

KO: No, the rumor went on young girls, just a rumor but wasn't so.

AL: Do you remember the first time you saw Americans in Japan? I mean, the occupation forces?

KO: Yeah, but it wasn't... not at all. But they took over rich people's big house. I'm sure they got paid but rich people had another house. Rumor goes on that young girls... I said, let's move to country, but my family was just average, they didn't have extra house or anything but it wasn't so.

AL: Right, but you never know.

<End Segment 4> - Copyright &copy; 2010 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 5>

AL: So in, Arthur, in your interview, you talk about going to Fukuoka, being on the train, going through Hiroshima and I don't think you ever talk about how the two of you met.

AO: No, that was never mentioned.

AL: Could you tell us or would you rather not say?

AO: Yes, I'll talk about it. My sister worked for the military government in town and she was in what they call a typing pool. And so one day --

AL: Is this your sister Grace?

AO: My sister Grace.

AL: Okay.

AO: And she mentioned that there's a nice girl working in the same office, so evidently Kimi learned to type on her own. She's always told me that right in her neighborhood was a lady that held typing lessons, and so on her spare time she would sit down and learn to type herself.

KO: My neighbor started typing school, and then before that, my family, not only my family, average people's family, good families, daughter doesn't go to work. But like a business one, this is after the war it changed, everybody worked. So anyway, my neighbors asked my parents if I can watch them one hour out of town people, so I went to help them. I don't know I got paid or not and very little but meantime I practice my own typing. I didn't have to pay.

AL: So you were working then for the occupation forces? Is that, were you working for the military with Grace?

AO: Kimi was in the same office at the military government working in the typing pool.

AL: Were you working for the U.S. government or the Japanese government?

AO: That was the U.S. military government office.

AL: Okay.

KO: Of course, those days, average people's family's daughter didn't go to work.

AL: Right, they didn't have to work.

KO: You go practice Japanese music, okoto and then flower arrangement teacher come to the house. I got tea ceremony I got tired and so my neighbor opened a typing school.

AL: So you met through Grace, your sister?

AO: Yes, that's true.

AL: So what did you think of this American with a Japanese face, American heart?

KO: Let me tell you when first time he came to my parents' house. Those days, entry doors always open, it's not locked and he's knocking on the door. [Laughs] Nowadays doors locked, everybody has door, most people have doorbell, but those days he was knocking on it.

AL: Just as an example like that, what are some of the cultural, what, the funny cultural things that happened because you come from different backgrounds like knocking on the door. Were there other examples where she was very different than the American Nisei girls?

AO: Coming back to my first visit, I knock on the door and politely, like we do here in the United States. But in a sense of the Japanese hearing a pounding on the door, and my sense to explain that, oh, there was a terrible, savage, unruly savage there banging on the doors. That was my impression that I had, and so that changed and I finally learned how open the door, and say, "Gomen kudasai," and that's more polite.

AL: What does that translate as?

AO: "Please excuse me."

KO: "I'm here," something like that. But now I think now average people have a doorbell and doors locked more bad people also.

AL: Yeah, that's true. So what did your parents think of this gaijin, foreigner?

KO: My parents?

AL: Yeah, what did they think of you with an American?

KO: No, my parents were just crazy about him.

AO: Well, at first, before we actually get married, and I understand that her father jumped on his bicycle and went to the village where my family grew up, where my father grew up. So he would go to each house and look at the names on each front of each house.

KO: Everybody is Ogami. [Laughs]

AO: Every Ogami. And my father told me as I was growing up that the family, his family was one of the twenty-four families that was started back some 200 years ago. And he always said that Taichibana Danjo, the lord in Kashi area of Fukuoka, so it dates back quite a long time. The eldest son was asked to go to Hibaru and start farming and he started with twenty-four families. They younger son, the second son went to Kuroda castle and was an aide to Lord Kuroda. That's the story that I had remembered.

AL: So what is the name of your village? Are you also Fukuoka or a different village?

AO: It's the outskirts of Fukuoka and they --

KO: Now, it was in the city now.

AO: It was called Hibaru, H-I-B-A-R-U village.

AL: How long did you date before you decided to propose?

AO: Probably about one year. And the day that I was supposed to meet her was at the trolley stop, and so the name of the trolley stop was called Nishi Koen, which is translated to West Park stop. So I waited there and then this young girl comes by and was waiting dressed in green. I remember that, dressed in green.

KO: Green suits and green shoes.

AL: You were dressed in green?

AO: No, Kimi was dressed green.

AL: Oh, okay.

AO: That's how I was able to identify her. And then one thing led to another and we got married. And incidentally, the U.S. military hospital building was only a few blocks from where her family actually owned a house.

AL: And that's where you were working, right?

AO: Yes, the U.S. military hospital. And the U.S. military hospital was originally a postal insurance building.

KO: That building I had to say, ever since I was growing up it was real still modern building, big insurance company.

AL: Yeah, you actually talked about that in your interview in 2006, about the insurance company and then moving out and then moving back in.

AO: Yes.

<End Segment 5> - Copyright &copy; 2010 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 6>

AL: So when you proposed to Kimi, were you thinking then that you were going to spend your life in Japan or had you already decided to come back to the States?

AO: No, I had no knowledge that I would be able to come to the United States. But so I mentioned to Kimi I said if ever I'm able to return to the United States that I can work at any kind of work and have a comfortable living, and that's all I mentioned to her. But my commanding officer, Colonel Duryea, one day told me that... see, I put all my efforts to keep that hospital and all additional buildings and property in good working order. And so he knew that I was more loyal to the United States and so he mentioned that, "Arthur, you don't belong here." And so he introduced me to Thomas Ainsworth who was a consulate in the consulate's office in Fukuoka. So Thomas Ainsworth submitted my application for reinstatement directly through the State Department.

AL: And you had to be reinstated because you had renounced?

AO: Yes, and so it only took a few days.

KO: They had to renounce and be with the family 'cause the family wanted to go back to Japan.

AL: And so, yeah, just to back up a little bit, we had talked when you were up in Lone Pine, we talked about your trip on the General Gordon. And you talk in your interview a little bit about you know waiting at the mouth of the Columbia River for the favorable sailing. But could you talk a little bit more about when you left the United States, your emotions about leaving the United States and going to Japan and seeing... that was the first time you had seen Japan?

AO: Yes.

AL: Right, when you went back? Could you just tell us a little more detail about that trip on the General Gordon and going back to Japan?

AO: I'll go back to when I left Fort Lincoln. When I left Fort Lincoln, I left without United States citizenship knowing that I will never have the opportunity to return to the United States. So I boarded a train and was transported to Portland, Oregon, and there I boarded the USS General Gordon. When I was on the dock, all I saw was the ship gunwale, and as they approached the ship, we just had sort of like a Jacob's ladder that the steps going up and over. And I thought that it was a size of a destroyer, that's my first image of the ship. And they placed me just at the head of the gunwale of the galley and the bunks were canvas bunks and six person, so I was on the bottom. So I had to wait 'til the ones that are above me are out before I could get out because scooting in between, I couldn't get... I couldn't scoot out. But fortunately I happened to meet the only captain military officer on board was a doctor and I don't know how I was able to meet him. But anyways, I met this captain and I told him that I worked as an orderly in the hospital in Manzanar and Tule Lake and so he said, well, you can stay in sick bay and be more comfortable so I spent most of my time up in sick bay.

AL: What was it like when you left the Columbia and you started sailing off the ocean, when you looked back and saw America for what you thought was the last time? Do you remember what you were thinking?

AO: Not really, I was coming down the Columbia River, we sailed on, we left Portland early and it took us all day to reach Astoria and they anchored. And so they had to wait for the tide because of the sand bars at the mouth of the Columbia River. And when it set sail and sailed out of the mouth of the Columbia River, there was at one time the ship seemed to dip, and I don't know what would cause that dip, but I do remember that time. And then the ship just slowly sailed out of the Columbia River, mouth of the Columbia River, and they headed north to travel on the great northern circle but it seemed that they were traveling between two storms, so they redirected their heading and then I was informed that they were sailing approximately 500 miles north of the Hawaiian island chain and that's why it took longer to cross, probably fifteen days crossing.

<End Segment 6> - Copyright &copy; 2010 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 7>

AL: And you talked in your interview with Richard about when you first got back to Japan and guarding your possessions and taking the train and some of those things about the... how you got around in Japan and what you did. I'm curious about your emotions like when you first saw Japan.

AO: When I first saw Japan?

AL: What went through your mind?

AO: I looked around and what I saw of people, they were on their little three-wheeled carts and I was told if anyone wants to help you to carry your luggage, refuse. And there was one man and he had in back of his three-wheeled cart bags of night soil, you know what night soil is?

AL: Yes.

AO: And knowing that it was night soil, I didn't want my suitcases on top of night soil.

AL: Can you explain what night soil is though for someone listening to the interview?

AO: Night soil is... what can I say, it is sewage, it's the... how can I explain that? Night soil is jinpun. We call it jinpun.

AL: We got the idea.

AO: But anyways, it's a sewage product, it's used on the farms, and so at that time even my father used it on his little farm on the vegetables. I don't think it's used too much on a rice paddy.

KO: But now I remember they put it in a big pot, they don't use a fresh one.

AL: Right.

KO: They let it age.

AL: Dry, yeah.

AO: So that at the edge of your rice paddy they'll have an area where they keep it and it's covered with straw. And there's quite a few times when the GIs in their jeep would go around and they'll never see, and they'll step out and step into those pots. [Laughs] So those stories we've heard about, and sometimes military vehicles would take a wrong turn because it's a pretty tight turn around, and their whole vehicle would go into those human waste --

AL: So how big were these containers?

AO: Oh, probably about five or six feet in diameter.

KO: But they had to age it. They don't use the fresh --

AL: Yes. It's probably the first time I've ever done an oral history on that. [Laughs]

<End Segment 7> - Copyright &copy; 2010 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 8>

AL: So we were also talking a little bit earlier about when you proposed and you told Kimi that if you ever had a chance to come back to the United States that you could make a living.

AO: Yes.

AL: So when did you actually decide to come back to the States and what did your parents have to say about that?

AO: When I was reinstated I think I mentioned before that Thomas Ainsworth, the U.S. vice consulate, submitted my request for reinstatement.

AL: And you did talk about that in your 2004 interview about the guy working with Wayne Collins and getting your citizenship back.

AO: Yes, there were some talks going around and he wanted 400 dollars retainer so I didn't have any 400 dollars and I thought well, his case will take a long long time and what they said is you pay your 400 dollars and with that he will be able to have you permitted to come to the United States for the trial. And I thought well that probably wouldn't be possible anyways in my case.

AL: Why wouldn't it be possible? Because of the money or because of --

AO: The time.

AL: The time.

AO: See, why would they send hundreds of applicants just to come to the United States to stand trial? And I thought the government wouldn't do that. There are some that did come to the United States and so I just withdrew myself. But 1952, fall of 1952, Colonel Duryea gave me the opportunity to meet Thomas Ainsworth and so I said there was nothing to lose. And so through Thomas Ainsworth I was almost immediately reinstated. But I had no correspondence to that but it was a telephone call from Thomas Ainsworth to Colonel Duryea.

AL: And who was Thomas Ainsworth?

AO: Thomas Ainsworth was the Vice Consular in Fukuoka.

AL: Okay.

AO: And later I went to visit him on one of my vacations to Japan and so I called U.S. embassy and asked if they knew if Thomas Ainsworth had been reassigned somewhere in Japan. And the gentleman that answered the phone said that well, he's here. I said I'd like to visit him, but Thomas Ainsworth was on vacation. So on my return to the United States I called and Thomas Ainsworth was there in his office and so I went to visit him. And at the time he was the first secretary to the ambassador.

AL: You were very fortunate to have someone take up your case like that.

AO: Yes. So he took it on his own accord because requested through Colonel Duryea.

AL: How do you spell the colonel's name?

AO: Colonel Duryea is D-U-R-Y-E-A, Duryea. And he kept with us until he passed away. And one year I think about 1956 or '57 we drove to Roswell, New Mexico, where he was retired and was living in Roswell, New Mexico. And at that time he was a public health officer and so we spent I think about three days visiting. That's how much we were... how tight our friendship was.

AL: That's amazing. So before we talk about your coming back to the States, did you marry in Japan?

AO: Yes. And since I was pretty close to the... working at the military hospital we were married in the hospital chapel. And Chaplain Wyatt was the one that officiated our marriage and so he prepared a military marriage certificate for us.

AL: So did you have a... if it was a military chaplain was it a Buddhist ceremony or a Christian ceremony?

AO: No, it was Christian, Protestant.

AL: Protestant.

AO: And he was real happy to do that and the witness was Colonel Duryea and also former Count Taichibana. And the reason why we used the former Count Taichibana, is that Colonel Duryea wanted me to go to Count Taichibana's residence to ask his permission for the hospital personnel to go visit his residence. And so I didn't know how to approach a noble person like former Count Taichibana so I asked a well-educated lady working in the hospital library, Miss Tokunaga, and she and I went and so she did all the arrangements to ask Mr. Taichibana for his permission to bring the hospital personnel, and he was very happy to grant the permission.

AL: That's great. When did you get married? What is your --

AO: We got married November 18, 1950. It was during the quiet period of the Korean War, there was a slight slack and that's why we married at that time.

AL: Did you serve in the Korean War?

AO: No.

AL: 'Cause you were not reinstated by that time.

AO: No.

AL: Yeah, okay.

AO: See, the Korean War, the major forces was the 24th Division and General Dean was the commanding general of the 24th Division. Incidentally he was killed during that time, yes, I think his jeep overturned and that caused his death.

<End Segment 8> - Copyright &copy; 2010 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 9>

AL: So, Kimi, when you first got married, where did you all live? Did you live with your family or did you have your own place?

KO: No, in Japan those days I don't know about now but, still young girl, they don't leave the house 'til you get married. And average people's daughter, they don't go to work.

AL: Right, so where did you live when you first got married? Did you have your own place?

AO: I lived at my father's residence.

AL: And you both lived there?

AO: Yes.

AL: So when did you make the decision to come back to the United States and was that a difficult decision to make for you two?

AO: Coming back to the United States was not a difficult decision to make. At the time we were married I was still unstated.

AL: So you had no citizenship to either country?

AO: Yes. So when Gene was, our son Gene was born I still was not... I didn't have my U.S. reinstated, U.S. citizenship. And so before I was married I had my own room in the hospital and I had all my meals there. But when we became married then I went home and stayed in my father's home. And Gene was born, Gene had the privilege to be born in the U.S. military hospital, and when he was ready to come home then we went home to my father's home.

AL: So was he a citizen when he was born?

AO: No.

AL: How did he get his citizenship?

AO: After I was reinstated, then Colonel Duryea advised me to go to the U.S. consulate office and register him as being born as a U.S. citizen with my birthright.

AL: So, Kimi when you were thinking about coming to the United States to live, what did you think it was going to be like?

KO: I had no idea but I'd like to be with my husband. But we didn't have money to come, for two people passage was a lot of money then.

AL: So how long did you have to wait before you could come over?

KO: Six months?

AO: No, it was pretty close to nine months. Soon as I was reinstated I had to get together at least 400 dollars for ship fare and that was with the OSK Line.

AL: It's a shipping company?

AO: A shipping company and the name of the ship was Hawaii-maru.

AL: Hawaii like the street -- I mean the state, excuse me.

AO: The state of Hawaii.

KO: Now you know those days only rich people traveled airplane, but nowadays ship is very luxurious.

AL: I know, at that time it was what you could do if you couldn't afford anything else. So did you come across on the ship with Gene by yourself? Or did you go back to get her?

AO: No, after I was able to earn enough money for Kimi's and Gene's fare. And then on the same ship line they came over on Mexico-maru. They were the two newest ships and I think they were about four years old, very fast and from Yokohama to San Francisco, ten days.

AL: That's better than the General Gordon.

AO: Oh, the General Gordon.

AL: Was that fifteen? So where did you, when you came back to the States, where did you live and work?

AO: My sister Grace was already here in Los Angeles so she came after me. So I arrived on Sunday and so Monday I borrowed her car, I passed my driving test, and then the same morning I went to department of employment. See, at that time it's called the department of employment, and so they called two different companies and one company said that they had already hired someone. The second company said they hired someone but they were willing to interview me and this is called Western Car Loading and they're the rail trucking company. So on the East Coast they fill all the full cars with cargo type of freight and then they by rail to Los Angeles, and then they were put on Western Car Loading trucks and delivered.

KO: Western Car Loading had a dock.

AL: Oh, okay, so it went from a dock.

KO: And then unloaded off which is connected to so that's why he start working 'cause he knew how to type.

AL: So when you came back to the U.S., this is what, 1950 --

AO: '53.

AL: '53. And you had been out of... you left L.A. in 1942?

AO: Yes.

AL: Right, so you'd been gone eleven years?

AO: That's true, yes.

<End Segment 9> - Copyright &copy; 2010 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 10>

AL: This is Alisa Lynch with Art and Kimi Ogami on the 10th of August. This is tape two of an oral history interview which is part two of an oral history interview that started in 2004. So you were just talking about Count Taichibana in Japan being ill and a request to get him medication.

AO: Yes, his doctor approached me said that the medication needed for Count Tachibana is not available, that if I would be able to get the prescription for him. I says I'll try so I went to doctor... Colonel Duryea and explained the situation and immediately told me to go see a doctor, I can't remember his name at the time.

AL: But you were able to get him the medicine?

AO: Yes, so he wrote out the prescription, the pharmacy department knew me and unquestioningly they filled the prescription. And I took the special express to Yanagawa where Mr. Tachibana lived and delivered the medication for him.

AL: That's great that you were able to help him. Just going back to the question that I was asking you when we changed tapes about being away from Los Angeles for eleven years, what were some of the big differences that you noticed from when you had left in 1942 to when you came back in 1953 in coming back to the States?

AO: Everything seemed to be not changed that much even though it was eleven years. I wasn't used to driving but I passed my driving test with no problem because my sister's car was automatic and I was used to a stick shift. And so my left feet was wandering around for the clutch and so the driving examiner knew that I knew how to drive.

AL: Right.

AO: So it was a very simple test.

<End Segment 10> - Copyright &copy; 2010 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 11>

AL: So, Kimi, for when you came over, what was it like for you when you first saw Los Angeles, right, when you... what were some of the big differences that you had to adjust to coming to the U.S. to live?

KO: Who, me?

AL: You.

KO: No, well, it was different from Japan.

AL: In what ways?

KO: I was so glad to be with, you know, after all, we were newlyweds, and we had a baby already. East L.A. we rented apartment, his parent's friend, but they never had children so they check every morning... six units. Six units? Then they live in upstairs, six units, three and three and they live upstairs. Everybody coming, she watches. And then one time vacuum cleaner salesman came, we didn't have anything starting, so we bought the Electrolux. She already told the salesman, "They don't have money, so you don't go there." [Laughs] But he comes anyway but we didn't have any -- she loaned us so we... I was working and we bought it and she said, "You don't have money, you shouldn't bought it."

AL: So where were you working?

KO: I was start working trucking company, freight forwarding company.

AL: So is that how you got into the Teamsters Union?

KO: Yeah, automatically. So automatically he was working to get whole family was covered with insurance. We don't have to pay, we don't have to pay for insurance.

AL: Right, so were you still also working in trucking?

AO: No. I met my friend, Ken Yamaguchi had already had sales and repair of appliance and televisions so I used to, on the weekends, I used to go to his house to visit him. And finally he asked me, he says, "You have the ability to learn," and so I went to work for him. See my first job was 300 a month and he said well, he'll pay me 335 dollars a month.

KO: But most the places, even office is 300 starting. And then first house those days, 10,000.

AL: Wow, when did you buy your first house?

AO: It was 1955.

AL: So that's pretty soon? Just two years after coming?

AO: But the reason why I was able to do that is that Ken Yamaguchi gave me money enough for the down payment, it was 3,000 dollars. So he loaned that to me with no interest.

AL: Was he a friend of yours from camp?

AO: Yes, he was in Manzanar.

AL: Okay.

AO: And he had already known how to make radios so he had a --

AL: Oh, yeah, I think you, yeah, you talked about him in here. I forgot about that.

KO: Then I came six months later?

AO: Yes, later on.

KO: We didn't have money for whole, you know, we had the baby already.

AL: Right so it gave you a little time.

KO: We had to pay for the baby too.

AL: So when he was talking about Ken being in Manzanar, do you remember what Arthur told you about camps? Did he ever tell you he'd been in a camp? What did he tell you about camp life?

KO: In Japan you told me I guess. Yeah, so I knew that.

AL: What did you think about that?

KO: Well, you know, I didn't think about anything. He says Japan was... you know I thought about it after war he's American citizen, that wasn't right.

AL: Did you feel comfortable coming to America considering the war and like how people would accept you or treat you or how you felt about Americans?

KO: Never thought about anything about... all I wanted to be with the whole family together.

AL: Wanted to be with Arthur?

KO: I was in love. [Laughs]

AL: I think you still are.

<End Segment 11> - Copyright &copy; 2010 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 12>

KO: How many children do you have besides Gene?

KO: We adopted a little one. We didn't have baby, we tried to have baby. When you try and have baby you don't get pregnant, when you don't want to you get pregnant. [Laughs]

AO: So we adopted Charlene and we found out that there was a Dr. Diferego.

KO: Difiguredo.

AO: He's Portuguese, fluent in Japanese 'cause he must have been born and raised... Japanese education.

KO: Bring the baby --

AL: So your... the daughter, right, that you adopted --

AO: Charlene.

AL: Is she Nihonjin?

AO: She's Japanese.

AL: Oh, she is Japanese, from Peru?

AO: No, from Japan.

AL: From Japan. Oh, okay.

AO: He happened to locate her in Fukuoka and at that time she was about six or eight months old so he sent a picture after we agreed to sign the contract to adopt her. But it took quite a long time and the immigration would come to our house and actually go to the neighbors and ask questions about us.

KO: Make sure we have enough money to raise the children.

AL: So do you know why she was available for adoption?

AO: That wasn't mentioned to us. She was found as an orphan... not an orphan but in probably a children's home, whatever. And as soon as we signed a contract to adopt her, then she was transferred to Elizabeth Sanders, a nursery in Yokohama.

AL: So how did she come over? Who brought her on the ship?

AO: Dr. Difiguredo with his --

KO: Difiguredo, I think he's Portuguese.

AL: Did you have another child after that?

KO: Yes, shortly after I got pregnant. When you're trying so hard you don't get pregnant and when people don't want a baby they get pregnant. So anyway we try so hard and to doctor and nothing wrong with me. So we adopted and shortly after I got pregnant.

AL And so who is your third child? Is it a boy or a girl?

KO: Patty.

AL: So you have Gene, Charlene and Patty.

KO: And then Gene did real well in the school so we tried to ask her lawyer how is her background intelligence but he was nasty so I just didn't say anything about it. She's very smart, she was graduated from Berkeley.

AL: This is Charlene?

KO: Yeah.

AL: Oh, that's great.

KO: And most importantly, three get along fine and they don't feel any different. Sometime you hear somebody else say children, grown up children, they fighting they don't talk to each other but there's no such thing.

AL: So your family was close.

<End Segment 12> - Copyright &copy; 2010 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 13>

AL: Did you talk to your children at all about your life in camp or that you were in camp or your renunciation or anything?

KO: They're quite interested in the camp life.

AL: But like in the 1950s, 1960s, did you talk to them at that time?

KO: No, after grown up huh?

AO: No, Patty in the first or second grade asked me says, "Our teacher would like to have you come to the school and talk to the class," and I said I'd be glad to.

AL: About what year was that?

KO: Patty was in first grade?

AO: Yeah, first grade.

AL: And when was she born?

KO: 1950?

AO: '62

AL: '62, okay. So it would be late 1960s that you went to speak about it? What was it like talking about it? Was that the first time you talked about it publicly?

AO: Yes, it was. And it surprisingly, even at that age, that they were concerned about the condition of the camp, what we ate and so... and then later on after Charlene moved to Centerville, Ohio, our grandchildren had a project on talking about the internment. So I give them information about internment and so they got A-plus in their project.

AL: Wow, when was the first time that you went back to Manzanar? That you visited Manzanar for the first time again?

AO: It was quite late. And my mother used to go.

AL: Did your parents come back from Japan or did they remain over there?

AO: My father remained. My mother came back about 1956 or '7, she wanted to come back.

AL: And your father didn't?

AO: No, so he had his own home so he had a place to live. But I felt that after I came back that I had a more comfortable time readjusting in the United States than most of the ones when the camp was closed and they returned to different parts of the United States and into the Los Angeles area had a very difficult time. They had a lot of racial problems, I never had that. And even with the Western Car Loading, there was no racial problem at all.

KO: We had a good company. I worked at Western Car Loading. They have a teamster's union, of course we had to pay the dues but all the insurance they covered.

AL: Yeah, you said that was good insurance, it sounds like.

KO: And then retirement.

AO: A lot of ones that was on the Gordon returned to the United States. And some areas it was extremely difficult to, even to buy food. But in Fukuoka I don't think Kimi's family ever had any difficulty buying food.

KO: No, during the war, store opened just a little bit in the morning but they don't have much to sell. But when my father was young he was a regular army officer so every officer has a private soldier look after, you know, polish the shoes or something like that. And then he used to come to Sunday he used to come to the house and spend the day and so anyway he was a family, so ration was not enough. And so he go to his house, he lived by not too far, forty-five minutes or so. So he can buy stuff but other people, stores closing, so no rice, so they put a lot of water in like a what you call okayu, that runny rice.

AO: Watery rice.

AL: That's interesting.

KO: So we never was, didn't have to have those kind of rice. We had enough rice.

<End Segment 13> - Copyright &copy; 2010 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 14>

AL: When you went to Manzanar the first time you said it was late. What was the circumstance the first time you went back to Manzanar? Did you go specifically to see Manzanar or were you just passing by it?

AO: No. Well, one day we were on a trip going up to Reno. And then I said, well, I want to drive in. At that time where the gate was, and you went straight. See, there's no indication of whether to go to the right or to the left. And as I went forward, the sand under was so loose I says, I'd better not go in too far because I knew I might get stuck, so I backed out and left. I wanted to go back towards where the cemetery was but there was an area to the north where you could go back. I didn't know that road was cleared enough to go in the back section.

AL: What was it like emotionally to see it again?

AO: It was a place where I was, that's all, the way I felt. Being in camp I didn't feel that it affected my feelings. The only thing I had in my mind was the attitude of General DeWitt. And I think even in military they didn't really appreciate the way he enforced the internment of the Japanese.

AL: You originally were "no-yes" and then your mother changed your answer, is that right?

AO: That's true.

AL: Okay, so if you had been... if it hadn't been for your parents, do you think you would've wanted to stay in the United States?

AO: If I was inducted I probably would have remained in the United States.

AL: When was the first time that you went back to Tule Lake?

AO: Tule Lake pilgrimage I thought it was great to go back to the camp where all my emotions to go to Japan and each step going to Tule Lake, doing the Hokoku Seinendan, was one step to going to Japan. And then being transferred to Fort Lincoln, Bismarck, North Dakota, was another step closer to being, going to Japan. And then the day to leave was the last week of December 1945.

AL: So the war was already over?

AO: Yes, war was over. And I felt that I'm leaving never to return to the United States. But most of the ones, the young boys my age never did go to Japan, they changed their mind.

AL: Did you have an opportunity to change your mind?

AO: Probably yes.

AL: But you didn't want to?

AO: No, because I wanted to keep the family intact.

AL: Did the rest of your family... you said your father didn't come back but your brother, your sisters, did they all come back to the States?

AO: Yes, after they were... the Collins case was overturned, reunciants, and so my brother came back.

AL: So he was a renunciant also?

AO: Yes.

AL: Was everybody in your family, did everybody renounce?

AO: Yes, my sister I don't know if she was considered renouncee or not. But she married GI and came back.

AL: So you... I don't know how when you and Richard connected in 2004, do you remember how you met Richard or how you came to do that interview in 2004? Did you meet him at Manzanar?

AO: Evidently we met at Manzanar and he said that he wanted to make an interview and so he called and came to our house and he came twice.

AL: Were you at the grand opening of the interpretive center in 2004?

AO: I really don't recall.

AL: Okay, what did you, though, I mean, coming back and seeing how the story is being told now or the fact that you know Manzanar is now part of the National Park Service? Tule Lake just recently became a part of the National Park Service. What is your feeling about it? I mean we are... the National Park Service is the federal government?

AO: Yes.

AL: We are an agency of the U.S. Department of Interior just like the War Relocation Authority was. What was your feeling about having the federal government take over Manzanar, Tule Lake, Minidoka?

AO: I think it's a great idea.

AL: How come?

AO: I felt that the United States government wanted to preserve the memory of these camps. And then as the camp authorities would ask me to be a docent, I'm more than happy to do that. And I feel that myself I've experience a one of a kind experience, and because I was loyal to the United States government, especially getting medication for Count Tachibana. I read quite a bit of books and one of the person that frequents Manzanar loaned me a book called, A Bridge to the Sun. Have you heard of it?

AL: I've heard of it but I haven't read it.

AO: It's about Gwen Harold who married a Japanese diplomat 1931 and they had a child in Shanghai, and the time of Pearl Harbor the child was nine years old and all the diplomats were ordered to go into internment camp. Gwen Harold to keep the family intact never separated from the family and she was on the Gripsholm as a diplomatic exchange and spent the war years in Japan. And then after the war was over, her daughter needed appendix surgery so she knew the secretary of the state so she went to the embassy to ask the secretary of state to have the U.S. military hospital permission to have her child being to have surgery at the military hospital. She had to ask for it. In my case when Gene was born Colonel Duryea said to Kimi, "When you're ready to deliver, you have your baby in my hospital." I didn't have to ask for permission it was granted to me automatically. And our medical care was automatically granted to us.

AL: Because you worked for the U.S.?

AO: Yes.

<End Segment 14> - Copyright &copy; 2010 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 15>

AL: When you think about your involvement with Manzanar and oral history and the docent programs and all of these things, what is it that you want most for people to know about that part of your life, that part of history? Why do you want it preserved and what is it you want people to know?

AO: I want people to know that whatever I went through, whether it's in Manzanar, at Tule Lake, also in Fort Lincoln, North Dakota, and leaving the United States, and also working for the U.S. military hospital in Fukuoka, that things went well for me and everything that I needed was in my favor even though I didn't deserve it so to speak. And that I had less suffering after the war than most of the people who didn't renounce or the ones that did renounce and went through remained in the United States, not going to Japan after they changed their minds. Is that my life has been good and I feel that someone told me that someone's looking after me.

KO: We worked hard because he's the oldest son so he had to support his parents. He had to send money to Japan.

AL: Did your mother remain in the United States the rest of her life?

AO: Yeah, she died here.

AL: She did.

AO: Yes.

AL: And your father died in Japan?

AO: Yes, he died in Japan. My mother lived short of three months of being ninety-seven.

AL: So Kimi a similar question for you. But about the war and of course most of the interviews that we have are Japanese Americans, you know, before the war. I know that you're Japanese American now, you're what Shin Issei, right? A new Issei. But during... you have a different perspective because you were in Japan during the war. What is it you want people to know about your unique experience or about Japan and the war or anything that you would like people to know in the future to learn from your experience?

KO: Well, I don't know. If they ask me I don't mind talk about it because high school is different as I mentioned.

AL: Yeah, you got to go to good high school.

KO: Yeah, entry exam.

AL: So if you were talking to high school students today, here in the United States, if we were all high school students what would your tell us?

KO: I think so easy 'cause you don't have to do... you know we had to study, no computer, then bleed between the finger, pushing pencil.

AL: You had to work hard.

KO: Yeah, and then but during the war they send us to factory we don't get paid but yet my parents had to pay tuition and then study or own, but we worked hard. Nobody complained; no parents complained.

AO: This is one thing about schools in Japan is that the students are responsible to give indentured service to the school.

KO: What?

AO: Janitorial service, like scrubbing the floors, cleaning. Which is a no-no here in the United States.

<End Segment 15> - Copyright &copy; 2010 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 16>

AL: So I wanted to ask you about one more story and that was you were talking about your return to Fort Lincoln and the presentation of the blanket. Could you tell us that story of when you went back to Fort Lincoln, why you were there, and what you experienced there recently?

AO: I thought that was a great experience to be included on the planning of the memorial.

AL: This is a memorial at Fort Lincoln?

AO: Yes.

AL: What is it a memorial to?

AO: It's a memorial to us as being imprisoned there and then when... I didn't know about the Native American, but I was so happy that the United Tribal Technical College was [inaudible] education. And being --

AL: So it's a school now is that right?

AL: Yes, it's a full established college, and since it was surplus property that they were able to acquire the use of the property and Fort Lincoln being a national monument is that they're subsidized by the U.S. Government. This made me feel very good. And then the other story about Chief Sitting Bull refusing to set the treaty with the United States government, so that put him in the same position as us that renounced citizenship and so they feel good about it too.

AL: So what was the ceremony with the blanket recently?

AO: That was done, performed by the medicine man of the tribe.

AL: So could you explain to us what the event was and what the meaning of it was?

AO: I didn't understand exactly what the ceremony was all about until afterwards. So they called in five names and mainly it was the ones that were eighty years old or older. So we all... they call our names out so we stood in front of everyone and then they, each one of us, they put the quilt over our shoulders and I just thought that was part of the ceremony even though it was a ceremony. And then the medicine man would cleanse us. There was a special type of ashes that they burned and they do this spiritual cleansing the spirit. And then after it was all completed, and then they disbanded sort of and we were just left there with the quilt over our shoulders and then we left. That's when the memorial committee started taking picture of us that... did you get a copy of the Rafu Shimpo that showed the picture?

AL: Probably, I don't get to read them as quickly as I'd like to but I'm sure that we have it. So what does it feel like now all these years later that people are preserving these sites and the stories?

AO: I'm very happy about it and I'm happy that the government did apologize to us. So I do the reciprocal; I apologize to the... accept the apology from the government is that when I renounced my citizenship that I... they gave it back to me, no questions asked. And I feel very good about it.

AL: What would you like to see at Manzanar say in ten years, twenty years? I mean, what is your vision, I mean you've been there a lot more than a lot of people as far as working with visitors. What would you like that site to be in years to come when all of us are gone?

AO: I would like to see the interpretive center increasing and get more information and keep it complete. And I think there are visions that they want to make the Block 14 and have the complete block assembled. I would like to see that. I have visions that... they're doing a good job now they've got I think two barracks that are being reconstructed. The mess hall is there and eventually I'd like to see a whole block.

AL: Why would you like to see that?

AO: Because this will give the impression of what it was like to live in this one particular block, the way it was that we were there. 'Cause I visualize with my friends going from one place to another and we'd come down through there and we had to use the restroom and so we say, "Well, we got to go here," and you start heading, says, "Don't go in there, that's the women's latrine." [Laughs] So a lot of times they all look alike anyways when you're talking to someone to go in. And get the impression of how it is and I think Manzanar is coming closer to that image to me.

AL: So you feel like it will make difference to have more buildings?

AO: Yes, it would. Eventually it'll give people knowledge of what it actually was what you experienced.

<End Segment 16> - Copyright &copy; 2010 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 17>

AL: Is there anything else that... first of all, do you guys have any questions that you wanted to add?

Off camera: I have one. Arthur you said that you've been really lucky. You said you've been really lucky that things have worked out for you really well?

AO: Yes.

Off camera: But I also I think maybe it's not all just lucky. I think you have certain kinds of attitudes about why you renounced your citizenship, why when you went to Japan you worked so hard at the hospital, and why somebody was happy to help you regain your citizenship. So I kind of wonder what is your thoughts about being an American citizen that made you work so hard to... so that things worked out so well for you? What were your thoughts about being a citizen that made that happen?

AO: To me, I didn't have to go through a lot of struggles of others who had renounced citizenship. I didn't come back into a world of hatred that still remains in some people. I didn't have this and that's one thing I think that everything worked out in my favor right from the very beginning. And so even when I first stepped into the office of utilities, I went up Lieutenant Kitchen and introduced myself, the first sergeant, the utility sergeant, he got up quickly and shuffled desk around and there was already an interpreter there, an elderly gentleman. And his name was Dr. Shuin and he had a very difficult time speaking American English, and so he just stood aside and finally he asked what he should do, so they sent him back to the utilities office... I mean, the labor office, so he was reassigned and since then I hadn't seen him.

AL: You got his job? He must not have belonged to the Teamsters. So when you were just talking about hatred in response to John's question, what advice would you have or what would you say to somebody who feels full of hatred and bitterness about you know life or because of their life because of camp?

AO: I would say to myself, the people who hate, they don't realize that their hatred is something that has been manufactured. I like people, I like to talk to people, and if they have any negative feelings towards me I would let them have that privilege, but I don't need their association. But I'm a person that will forgive, and so everyone that I have met, whether they hated me or not hated me. While I was working at the U.S. military hospital I used to help in the enlisted men's club and there was one, I don't know what class he was, a buck private or private first class, and so I served him his drinks and he would just sit there and drink and he says to me, he says, "Next time you come through the chow line you're going to get just a little bit." So the next morning I go to the chow line and this guy is serving me. [Laughs] And so actually someone that hates someone don't really hate someone because it's manufactured hate. That's the way I feel.

AL: How do we stop manufacturing it?

AO: Well, it's something in press, and the media has a lot of influence when they make hate. And so I read the paper about people hating this, people hating that.

AL: Is there anything else that you want to add that I haven't asked you about? Of course we can always do a part three interview next time but I just wanted to get, like we talked about, some of the more recent stuff. So is there any particular encounter that you've had with visitors at Manzanar that sticks out in your mind? What it's been like being with visitors, talking to visitors?

AO: Well, one morning I was sitting down at the counter at that one end and a visitor came in and one of the rangers said that, "You're very fortunate to be here today because here's a former resident of Manzanar here sitting there." So he comes over and he looks at me, he says, "I'm sorry." I says, "There's no reason for you to be sorry." You're the one didn't involve to put me here. See, the visitors are very sentimental and they come there, they see a guard tower, and then they come in they said that this one time of prison for the Japanese not knowing what was there. And I'm very pleased that a lot of visitors, they listen to my stories.

AL: We're pleased that you share them.

AO: Even though I have tears in my eyes, they also have tears in their eyes. [Crying]

KO: But you know, some people, I would say most people, after all, it's not happy memories, they don't want to talk about it, but he doesn't mind talking about it. And often I think if it wasn't for the war, we never met. That's the best thing happen. Like I don't know if I mentioned my best girlfriend in school, her father went to the war, he never came back. And then just before war ended big air raid, Fukuoka is big city. And then incendiary bomb just like a tar, black tar with a flame on it, once you got on it you can't just do that. And she died she couldn't even go in the hospital 'cause it too full, you know, people dying. She suffered, I think she suffered about four or five days she passed away. And her father went to the war, he never came back. And sometime I think I was lucky.

AL: Well, I'm happy you met each other too because every time I see you two I think, "That's love." You're such a couple of little newlyweds even though it's been fifty years, sixty years. But I just want to say on behalf not just of us but our whole staff and the visitors and everything that we from the bottom of our hearts appreciate all you have done for us over the last six and half years. Just, you know, since we've been there recently but all the people you have touched because it is true. It makes a huge difference for people to talk to you.

KO: I think most people like, you know, his position they don't want to talk about it. After all it's not happy memory.

AL: Yeah, well, we are so grateful that you share your heart.

AO: I've been asked about May 30th when I first got off the plane and was on this commuter bus entering Fort Lincoln, they asked what my feeling was knowing that I departed from Fort Lincoln December of 1945, that I left without a U.S. citizenship knowing that I will never be able to come back home. But during that time I was reinstated so I reentered Fort Lincoln May 30th, 2010, I completed a cycle. [Crying] I came home.

KO: 'Cause he lived in Japan he can't work 'cause after occupation if he doesn't know any Japanese. Doesn't know any Japanese at all period, he can say one word to Japanese people, he's not Japanese. 'Cause he couldn't, his family can't afford to send him to a Japanese school even they go to Japanese school they don't know much.

AL: Well, you know what, we are so glad you came home.

AO: Yes.

AL: And that you brought Kimi home with you. I hope even though during the war you didn't chose Manzanar to be your home, I hope that you will always feel now like you have a home there with... it's also full circle that you come back and like I said we are deeply grateful to you both.

KO: But when Japan lost the war, rumor goes round and we young girls, they come and take you away and I was so scared and let's move to country, but my family just didn't have any extra house.

AL: So you end up marrying one and moving to a whole new country anyway. Thank you both so much.

AO: Thank you.

<End Segment 17> - Copyright &copy; 2010 Manzanar National Historic Site and Densho. All Rights Reserved.