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TI: So it sounded like the whole issue of reparations and then later on calling redress, really evolved over time.

JT: Yeah, it did.

TI: I mean, you first talked about it been more about just getting the story out to make sure that happened, and then pretty soon money started, was talked about. And then '74 is when it really was put on the table a dollar amount. The other thing that was evolving was the scope of this. Edison's first thoughts was very broad, beyond what happened to Japanese Americans, but with African Americans and others. And so it's... I just love to capture this because it's... people sometimes don't get or understand how these things progress over time, and in some cases, how an individual can really influence what shows up at the very end. I mean, it goes through all these, sort of, turns in the bends and things like that. So you started the JACL in 1975 as a staff person?

JT: No, no.

TI: This was just joining?

JT: I just joined as a member.

TI: As a member. So why weren't you a member before 1975?

JT: Oh, 'cause I hated the JACL.

TI: Talk about that.

JT: Well, my father, my father was a Kibei. We were at Manzanar. I grew up in Los Angeles, we were in L.A. before the so-called "evacuation" took place. There were meetings being held after Pearl Harbor was attacked, in communities. We lived in west Los Angeles. My father -- you know, Kibeis were very different from the Nisei, they were very outspoken. They didn't take crap from anybody. They're kind of like Hawaiians in that sense, Japanese Hawaiians. But anyway, there were these meetings that were taking place, and as I understood it, my father was always very critical of the government, of these restrictions that were being imposed one after another. And then there was that big meeting where the JACL made that decision to cooperate. And then the word got out in the community, and there was this big meeting in Los Angeles. And my father -- I heard the story from a few different sources, and then confirmed it when I was running the redress campaign. I did a lot of research at the National Archives and came across this document about Tateishi doing this and saying this. But my father got up and said that the JACL was selling us out, that we cannot cooperate, this is wrong, we're Americans. And I don't know if it was Mike Masaoka or George Inagaki, one of them said something about, "If we don't cooperate, there'll be violence." And my father's view was, "Let there be violence. Let them shoot and kill some of us. And in fact, if they want people up against a wall, I'll stand there," and challenged whoever was leading the meeting, that, "You stand there with me. The men need to do this, and let them kill us. Because then this country will know what's happening." But, of course, that didn't happen, and we ended up at Manzanar. My father hated the JACL, I mean, despised the JACL because of that one moment. And then in camp, the Kibei were sort of disenfranchised by the JACL. You know, the JACL being what it is or what it was, became sort of the quasi-government of each of the camps. And they set up the structure, they assigned the jobs. And the Kibei got the crap jobs, you know, the garbage collectors, the guys who worked on the sewers, and the people who worked in the mess halls.

Well, my father was in one of the mess halls on our block, and there was a man with him in the next block, a Harry Ueno. And together they discovered that the government, or the administrators at the camp, at Manzanar, were stealing some of the supplies that were meant for the internees. And so they decided they would confront the chief administrator, which they did, and they both ended up getting thrown in the jail. And that occurred right, simultaneously almost, as the "Manzanar riot" broke out. And it was a bloody riot at Manzanar, and people got taken away, some of the Kibei. I mean, these were mainly Kibei who were rioting against the JACL. Not against the administrators or the guards, they were rioting against the JACL and the bad treatment by JACL of the Kibeis. And, you know, the inu and selling us out, all of that. And my father and Mr. Ueno were in the... I guess some kind of a jail at the camp. They weren't in the jail, they were being held. Then when the riot was over, they took twelve people away, among them, those two. Didn't hear from my father for about four months. And after a year, he returned to Manzanar right before the war ended, right before we got out. And my father never forgave the JACL for any of that. You know, before the war, during the war, the treatment of the Kibei. And he was a really principled man. I mean, he was a man who really believed that -- and he used to say this to me all the time, my brothers -- "You have to live by your principles, and if you have to, die for them." And he just felt that you don't sell each other out in the community, ever.

TI: And yet, so with that background, with that context, you joined the JACL.

JT: I grew up hating the JACL. You could not mention that word in our household. My father would go in a rage.

TI: And so in 1975, was your father alive?

JT: Yeah, he was alive.

TI: And so what was his reaction when he heard that you were joining the JACL?

JT: We lived in Marin County, which was really a homogenously white area. Very outdoorsy, I mean, you know, it's a place that you live if you like the outdoors. And we did, so we chose Marin County, and there was a meeting of local Japanese Americans who wanted to start a group. And I said to my wife -- it was in the local paper -- I said, "That smells like JACL. I want nothing to do with it." But she wanted to find where the Japanese lived in Marin County. So she was gonna go to the meeting, and I said, "Fine, but I want nothing to do with this." And the day of the meeting, my son got sick. He was two years old at the time. So I went to the meeting -- I guess he was about five, I don't know. Anyway, I went to the meeting, and indeed, it was the JACL organizing a chapter in Marin County. I was really critical and said that there really wasn't a coherent need for it that I understood, and if they knew of a reason why, to tell me. Or is this just to get more members and more money? And so -- and all the big wheels of the JACL were there. David Ushiro, who was the national director at the time, and Don Hayashi, who was associate director. The governor of the district, and, I mean, all these people. They explained why it was so important. And I kept asking, "Well, what it is your after? Is it the money from membership or what?" And no one could really understand or explain to me why there was a need for a chapter. So at the end of the meeting they said, this guy who was running it, he's a Sansei guy, said, "All right, let's meet again to discuss it." And I said, "See? That's the problem with JACL. All you guys do is talk, and you don't do anything. No action." So he asked me what I thought they should do and I said, "Why don't you form a steering committee and form a chapter? If you're going to do it, do it. Otherwise, stop talking." And so he asked me to be on the steering committee. And when we met, I said, "I think we ought to just write a check. Let's form a chapter right now," which we did.

I went home, I told my wife, and she said, "You better tell your dad." And it just hit me like a truck. I thought, "Oh, God, I can't call my dad and tell him this." I think it took me about two weeks to get up the nerve to call him. And I said, "You know, I joined the JACL. I need to tell you that, and you need to know." And there was this long pause, and I said, "The reason I did it is because JACL is talking about reparations, and I think that's where it's going to happen." And then he said, after this long silence, he said, "That's good. What you need to do is make sure they do more than just talk about that, that something happens." And in a way, it was his way to forgive me for doing something he thought was unconscionable. For decades, he'd felt that.

<End Segment 3> - Copyright © 2008 Densho. All Rights Reserved.