<Begin Segment 8>

TI: So let's go back to Brawley during the school year. Tell me about school in Brawley.

IS: I guess, you know, it wasn't that much in, at elementary school, we used to call it grammar school. But in high school, I remember I only went one year to high school, but at lunchtime, sitting on the grass, the Niseis would all gather and be among themselves. And of course the class, depending on what subject you took, you went into the class. And it wasn't that... I'm trying to say that at lunchtime, they gathered together, and then we went to Japanese school on Saturday, and then to the church, Sunday school and church on Sunday. And there was a Buddhist temple there, and I think they had the same setup there, too, where they had their Japanese classes on Saturday and had their worship service on Sunday. And so I think most of the Japanese went to either the Christian church or the Buddhist temple. And because of that and because of the fact that their, the parents were acquainted and friends, I think Japanese, on their own, sort of stuck together.

SF: Peter, was there any formal or informal segregation in the school system itself?

IS: There was in Imperial Valley. It's mentioned in the book, too, that there was a literally a Eastside school across the track, and I remember we lived in the country, so the bus came to pick us up. And it would stop at Barberworth grammar school, that was the elementary school I went to, and all the hakujin and Japanese would get off at that school, and that bus would then go over to this Eastside school where they were mainly Mexicans, and they were dropped off. And then in the evening time, we would all line up to get on the bus, and you knew where your bus would come, so you lined up here. And then the bus went and picked up the Mexican schoolchildren, brought them over, they would all get off the bus, get on the back of the line and they get on the bus. So it was segregated. But the high school was not segregated, but then farmers, I never mentioned this, but cantaloupe crops were usually only about two years, three years at the most, then that field would, you can't grow cantaloupe year after year. And I don't know, maybe, I can't tell you any more than that, but the way I remember it, so every three years, my father had to move. And he worked for Gerard company, so Gerard had their own big ranch, or they would lease the place and tell my father, "Okay, go over here." So we had to change school, too, sometimes, if you are in the same district. And I went to school in Westmorland, then they called it North End School, and then Brawley. I went to those different elementary schools.

SF: Why didn't the Japanese get paired up with the whites? Why wouldn't the system say all the people of color should go --

IS: Yeah. My mother I remember telling us this, said -- my brother was the oldest and he was 1922. And there were older Niseis in Imperial Valley or wherever, Brawley. And I remember my mother saying more than once, said, you know, when so and so's children, like the Okuma's family had older children, and when they, when it was going to be decided, "Where do we send these Japanese kids now coming up," that they had to be very careful because they wanted them to be sent to the hakujin school. So they had to make sure that they behaved well and dressed best they can so that they couldn't say, "Well, we don't want that kind of kids in our school," so they won't be pushed aside because of things like that. Did I answer your question? Yeah, so there was a time -- and by the time we were going, it was already decided that the Japanese would be going to the Barberworth school instead of the, whatever the Eastside school was. But those parents of older Niseis in Brawley had that kind of decision-making time, and we were very careful to make sure you did the proper thing. That's what I like, I mentioned in the book, my mother, used to mention that my mother used to say that we were guests in this country. I think things like that, she didn't experience that school situation, but she knew of that and thought that we have to be careful because we're, we're guests here.

SF: Do you think that that was the common view of most Isseis, that they had to look good in that way --

IS: I think so. I don't think, I don't think we were exceptional, "we" meaning the Sanos were exception. And another thing I mentioned is she wrote on their, in the book as Department of Motor Vehicles because they're the ones that issued the license. But the way I remember, it was a police department that issued the license when we were growing up. And I mentioned that there was this Nisei who was our age, I don't know why, but at that time, I think the drivers license had on there your nationality or something, and it had "Jap" on there. And so this guy, it was rumored that he went back to the police station and said, "Hey, put a period on here or spell it out." [Laughs] And we sort of talked about that. We were sort of impressed with what he was doing.

TI: That was pretty unusual for someone to challenge authority like the police.

IS: Yes. It's... so I think, I think many of us enryo. You know what enryo means? And when I first, when I returned and got married, I came and I lived in my parents', in East Palo Alto they had a place. And then we decided we'd go out and rent the apartment or something. And I still remember in the Palo Alto newspaper, saw an ad, "Apartment for rent" or something, and I remember going there. And then when I rang the doorbell, the landlady came out and she said, "Oh, I wouldn't mind, but you know I have other tenants, and I think they wouldn't like another Japanese moving in here." And I still remember my response to that. It was, "To hell with them. Let them leave. If they don't like it, they can go out, but you have an empty space, I want to go in." That should have been my approach, but no, I was far from that. I sort of gave her an excuse myself. I found out that it was an apartment upstairs, and I said, "Oh, that's okay, we have a piano and it'd be hard taking the piano up there." So I made excuse for her for not renting it to us. So I don't know, that was maybe because I had just come from Japan, and I don't think I could see my kids responding that way.

TI: But you saw that same attitude at Brawley, too.

IS: Yes.

TI: In terms of not confronting the police and things like that.

IS: Yeah. And then, yeah, I never experienced it, but I remember on the boat going to Japan in 1939, other Nisei was talking about the discrimination. Not all the time, but once in a while when that subject came, would come up, I remember somebody saying something like, "Yeah, I've had that experience," they said they go up to buy a movie ticket, and they said the woman there would just shake her head like that and she, I didn't know what was wrong, so I pushed 'em over toward her and she kept she shaking her head. She said, "No, I can't sell to you." And they accepted that and walked back, you know.

TI: And in that case, how did, what did that make you feel like? I mean, how did you feel?

IS: Well, I didn't experience that ticket thing, but you mean at this not having the apartment?

TI: Yeah, saying not the apartment.

IS: Well, I guess I made that excuse for her, so I must have said, "Well, I am Japanese, she doesn't want to rent to me, so that's it."

SF: Do you think overall, Japanese Americans in general, having that kind of way of dealing with the discrimination, that that's kind of paid off? Was it a good strategy, so to speak, or not such a good strategy?

IS: It was rocking the boat. Could you say it that way? You don't want to rock the boat. I don't know how I would do today, and I don't remember doing anything about it, but I remember when my daughter, who's now forty-seven or something, and when she was going to elementary school, there was that Japan and the whale issue. And she said a friend of hers, or a classmate of hers started blaming her. She came home and said, "So and so in my class said I was killing the whale." And I guess she didn't like that, because she didn't think she had anything to do with it. But I didn't bring that up either, I didn't go to the school and say, "My daughter had this kind of experience, so can you do something about that? She's American."

TI: But what did you tell your daughter when she came back and told you that? She's probably upset, do you recall what you told her?

IS: No, I don't recall what I did. I know what I didn't do, but I don't know. Because she went to Norway when she was in, spent one summer in Norway when she was in, just started high school or something. And I think she said, I think Norway does something with whales, too, and she said she had to argue with them about that. And she was taking the United States' position about Norway doing something wrong with whales. But I don't remember how I took.

TI: Okay, good.

<End Segment 8> - Copyright © 2010 Densho. All Rights Reserved.