Densho Digital Archive - Jean Shiraki Gize Interview

<Begin Segment 1>

TI: So, Jean, the way I start this is just the date and where we are. So today's Tuesday, May 24, 2011. We're at the Japanese American Museum in San Jose and helping with the interview is Steve Fugita, on camera is Dana Hoshide and my name is Tom Ikeda. So Jean, I'm just going to start at the beginning. Can you just start by telling me where and when you were born?

JG: Okay, I was born in Alameda, it's kind of funny because the hospital was called Alameda Sanatorium, and it was June 16, 1938. My parents lived in Oakland with my grandmother and her brother and at the time my dad had this car. And I love this story, they were... of course it was... he was in a rush, right? So of course what's going to happen when you're in a rush, you're going to be stopped by the police. So he was stopped by the police and he said, "Well, my wife's having a baby," you know, so that was some of the excitement other than my being born.

TI: And so when you hear the story did the police officer just let him go? Did he give him an escort to the hospital? What happened?

JG: I forget but all I know is that they were stopped. I would hope that they would be nice and help them along but I don't remember.

TI: You always hear about that but you're really the first one who I've heard that they were stopped by the police, that's a good story.

JG: Yeah, I love that story.

TI: And when you were born, what was the name given to you at birth?

JG: Jean Hatsue Shiraki. And that being first branch of the white tree.

TI: And do why they gave that to you, that name?

JG: Well, actually "Hatsue" I know why. It's because my aunt Hatsue who had only lived like less than three days, my mother's sister, I was named for her and I guess taking her place.

TI: And when did you find that out? That's kind of an interesting story.

JG: I found it out through the years by going to Mountain View Cemetery and I guess it must have been very difficult because her grave is it has a small stone and you really have to search for it because it's sort of like a... I mean, it's just not a formal grave. But her name is there and you had to go up in the hill and I always remember going with my mother over the years. So we've done this as I can recall from the '40s and I guess I'm the only one in the family that still goes and places flowers.

[Interruption]

TI: Okay, but it's kind of special because you were named after someone?

JG: Yeah, I guess it's the first time I realized, that's why I take the trouble to find her grave and put flowers on it. Thank you.

TI: That's good.

<Begin Segment 2>

TI: So I want to ask first about your father's side of the family.

JG: Okay.

TI: And I'd thought we'd start with your grandfather Shiraki.

JG: Yes.

TI: So tell me first what his name was and where he was from.

JG: Okay, his name was Shinzo and he was from the Kumamoto area and he was, as I know, he was the first son and he was born... let's see, he was like eighteen or twenty-one when he came and that was in 1891 so that would put him around, what, the math around 1860, late 1860s. So anyway, because of Japan's history of samurai, the original family came from the Kyoto area and so 550 years ago I guess that great war between the daimyo and the other guy with last name begins with a K but I can't remember it. Anyway, Grandfather, because of that he was moved, his family was moved to Kumamoto from the Kyoto area and they collected taxes until 1867, they were in charge of that area. And so when that happened, when the samurai class was disbanded he learned... he was born I think a couple years after that because I think it was around (1873, 1874) around that time, was it? I can't remember exactly but so I understand that he was born later and then so his family, he had to... they had to struggle.

TI: Because all of a sudden they were before collecting taxes so kind of a bureaucrat in some ways?

JG: Yes.

TI: And then all of a sudden that was gone and now they had to make a living somehow.

JG: Yeah, they had to make a living. So somewhere in the collection of information from my dad, my grandfather learned tile making and he learned assorted things but he decided because -- and this was to answer your question -- he wanted the idea of social freedom. I mean, I guess class structure and struggling and being the first son, he just wanted to get out of it. So he must have had some amount of money because he was able to come to the United States in 1891 and we have that through census records and stuff. And so when he arrived in... I think they first came to somewhere in Vancouver and then came down and he settled in San Francisco and later settled in Alameda. And he worked for the railroad part of the time and then he worked as a house person for this family which I told you about, Mr. and Mrs. Landon. They became so important in his life that he became... they became my father's... my father was the first son.

TI: They became like the godparents?

JG: Exactly, they became the godparents of my father in 1911. But I think he started working for them around 1894, '95, so it was a long relationship. In fact I have a chair from them that's in my house that had gone from my grandparents to my dad and now is in my house and of course I have it reupholstered and I have some of the other chairs refinished. But I mean that's... there's a legacy there.

TI: Now when your father worked... so your grandfather worked as a house boy, did he live with the Landons?

JG: No, he didn't. He traveled to Alameda back and forth and the interesting story is... I think I shared this with you earlier is that when the 1906 earthquake and fire happened, he was asleep and he did not feel it but when he heard about it he took the ferry and assisted them. I mean, it was a very close relationship. After he did that he also, later on he wanted to get married and so he... there was an arranged marriage and his wife was quite a bit younger, my grandmother, Miyomo Matsushima, I think. So anyway he went back to Japan and they married in Japan and then she came over later on the ship because I have the manifest China and it was in January of 1911. And in some of the records or some of the oral history they say 1910. But I have the actual ship's manifest or whatever it is that tell the date. Anyway so my dad was born in, very legally November or December 1911.

TI: Okay, you mentioned oral histories. Were these oral histories of your grandparents or of your parents?

JG: These were oral histories given to me by my father. What happened... what was really interesting I thought was the fact that we tried to pin Dad down but he was so busy he really never told us. The way it happened was the grandsons, both grandsons, my son John and my nephew, Matthew, had to do written reports in junior high about their family background so of course they went to Grandpa. I also did a written report in junior high so these written reports in junior high for the three of us me, and my nephew and son started this because they really didn't talk about it.

TI: Oh, that's interesting. So when you did it in junior high, who did you interview? Did you interview your grandparents or your parents?

JG: My parents because I didn't really have a good understanding of Japanese, because World War II you weren't about to learn Japanese or go to Japanese school. At least not in my family.

TI: Okay, so that's kind of in some ways kind of interesting when you have these different oral histories to... taken at different times you can almost compare them too and see how that's person's story has changed over time. Did you see changes between when you did the oral history when you were in junior high school and then your son and nephew?

JG: Exactly, they got more human when my son and nephew did it. And there was different emphasis because of the interests of both boys. So that was... but then my aunt, my mother's sister-in-law, she lived with my grandmother and I think she was very impressed, Mitsu was very impressed with my grandmother. And so... well, that's another story.

TI: Okay, you're talking about your grandmother Miyomo?

JG: No, the other side.

TI: Oh, the other side.

JG: So that's why I'm stopping.

<Begin Segment 3>

TI: Okay, yeah, so before we go there let's finish up. So your grandfather, grandmother, how many children did they have? You mentioned your father in 1911, how many other kids did they have?

JG: They had another boy, Harry and they had two girls, Mary, she was born in 1915 and my aunt who came much later in 1929. So there was a big spread, 1911, 1913, 1915 and then 1929. But I guess what I wanted to tell you a little bit about my grandfather starting a cut flower nursery and my aunt -- oh, there's another oral history. I asked, I wanted to know where more about her father and I said, "What can you tell about Grandpa, your father?" And she said, "Oh, he started this cut flower nursery and he would take a bicycle and have flowers in a basket and take it around to nurseries, I mean, not nurseries but florists in the area. And I know that my father was very friendly with this Tony Rossi because he has a..." there's this cooking thing in our family and there's a lot of Italian cooking because Dad was a good friend of Tony Rossi's son and so they had... he had many meals I guess at the Rossi house.

TI: So do you know what kind of personality your grandfather? It sounds like he was pretty gregarious then?

JG: I think he was and he was also a very handsome man and must have been very athletic because my father was athletic. But he also had a very fiery temper. That I know.

TI: And tell me how you knew that. What story or what did you experience?

JG: My father told me at one time that my grandfather was verbally and physically abusive of Grandmother and maybe I was told this story by my aunt. And he actually stepped in when he was a teenager and said, uh-uh, and he physically thrashed my grandfather which is a very sad story to tell but I think Japanese male... I think it was the period because I hear from my husband's side of the family that men were very, it was very patriarchal and women were very submissive.

TI: But it's... what's the right word? Surprising or... I mean, it wouldn't be normal for a son to stand up to his father like that.

JG: Well, my father had a very good, very good sense of what was... he had his own sense of what was right.

TI: And what was your father's name?

JG: George Kiyonobo Shiraki.

TI: Okay, good. Anything else about either your grandfather or grandmother on that side before we move to the other side?

JG: Oh, yeah, my grandmother was this... she was a very kind woman and such a good cook, you know. I fondly remember, when I was growing up I can remember my grandmother we would go to Monterey in the car, my dad's car, and my grandmother would fix this picnic lunch with the rice balls and the chicken, all that good stuff. And I must have been around seven or eight, this was before my sister was born so I must have been six, just after the war. And I could remember falling asleep on this big woman because she weighed about 150 pounds and she had to be about five three so she was a little round. She was so kind, just so kind, and the house always looked very nice and she would fix these wonderful New Year's meals. I mean, I still can remember those beautiful dishes and they made mochi the whole family made mochi. Can you imagine that?

TI: When you say make mochi, with the pounding?

JG: Yes, they did, that was, I remember that growing up I was under ten and they were doing this. My grandfather really worked hard, he... maybe that's some of the reason for his temperament because he had to start that... he had two nurseries one in Alameda and then in Oakland and then he had to be quite old, huh, in the sixties to forty that's a long time. Oh, my goodness he was very old, huh? Then after that he worked at Mills College as a cook.

TI: And this is after the war?

JG: After the war.

TI: So yeah, he'd be well in his sixties then, actually seventy.

JG: Seventy, yeah, he worked at Mills College as a cook. He was always working. I mean, he really tried to make a good living. And my grandmother, through this whole, time she would be working and supporting but I think she was really kind of the glue that held the family together because she was such a kind woman. She later died of cancer so I'm sure she had this placid sweet... I never heard a bad word out that woman's mouth. She had this sweet smile, this round woman, just very nice. And what's interesting too is I think about the Shiraki side of the family and honestly my aunt and my dad, they said that you had to do things a certain way, it was done a certain way, you behaved in a certain manner, there's only one way to do it and that was the right way. It was... and then so I think it must have come from my grandfather because my grandmother was so sweet.

SF: You mentioned that your granddad was athletic, did he play organized sports for the Japanese community or something?

JG: He must have because I saw... oh, this is so fascinating, Steve. I have some glass cuts of photographs... glass, have you seen those? It's fascinating. I cannot believe it and this was taken in the late 1880s. I don't know what to do with those things of his friends because here he was twenty years in the United States without a family so he did activities. 'Cause he was very fit. He was slender, and my dad played football, he wrestled, he played baseball so did long jumps, boxer. He was a boxing champion my dad so it must have come from his dad.

SF: Alameda had a big Japanese baseball team didn't they?

JG: I think so.

SF: Did your dad play in the league?

JG: Yes, he did and I talked to Mott Yatabe and he said they were on a (football) team and the All-Stars they called them the... what did they call them? The something All-Stars, maybe it was the football, something All-Stars but it was a Caucasian man who ran this league. But there were Japanese Americans in this league and the took all the football players because dad played football, too. And they played these intramural games and I think this must have been in the '20s.

TI: And did your dad talk much about that period, growing up, just his childhood, his memories?

JG: Well, he really didn't. I got it from other people like his friends, like the Yotabes they told us and then other people who knew Dad. And when dad's funeral this one man came up and told him about my dad and my dad was really a nice man. Even though he had a hot temper. [Laughs]

TI: But it sounds like he didn't share much about his life. It didn't sound like you know as many stories.

JG: Yeah, this is a telling story on me. He used to say, "Don't talk." he told me I was yakamashii, I talked too much. He really did. It really hurt my feelings because I was this... I took after the Nakayama, my mother's side of the family, and I guess the Shirakis were more formal.

<Begin Segment 4>

TI: Okay, so let's transition to the other side. Let's talk about your mother's side and why don't we start with your, again, your grandfather Nakayama. So tell me about him a little bit.

JG: Oh, he was a very interesting man.

TI: First, tell me his name?

JG: Boy, now I'm doing... okay, Yeizo Nakayama. Anyway, he was born I think in Gifu and his family, his father was a lawyer, his first... his older brother became a judge in Tokyo. He was born in... my grandfather, Yeizo, was born in I think 1861. And he was trained as a pharmacist and he had, I think, two sisters and another brother and they were well-educated people. The father I think was associated with the council that helped the government. So anyway, what I did find about that family is that being the fourth son he did not... he was more of a dreamer. When he was by Lake Biwa where he settled he met a man called Joe Niijima who is a very popular figure in Japanese Christian history. This man at the time of the Admiral Perry was a youth and he was interested in the Americans so he boarded an American ship, snuck on, and he went to United States and was befriended and supported by an American Christian minister. He lived with that family and was trained at Andover and became, went from Andover to... I'm trying to think of that university that's connected with it but... anyway I'll go on to say he became the first Japanese that was ordained at an American seminary back east. But returned to Japan and helped the prince because he spoke fluent English. And so he also founded Kyoto University.

TI: What an extraordinary man.

JG: So anyway, my grandfather met him and was so impressed by him that they became friends and he gave up his career as a pharmacist. And apparently he was so influenced by him that he went and as a student... had a student visa in the early 1880s, went over and whether he was a student in the Boston area or was he just visiting the university, he was so impressed that he came back to Japan and when he met my grandmother... he must have been a missionary, I mean, selling bibles, I don't know.

TI: But your grandfather went all the way to the East Coast.

JG: That's right.

TI: So it wasn't the West Coast but he went all the way to the East Coast.

JG: Because of Joe Niijima and his Andover connections, you know.

TI: And at this point do you know if your grandfather knew much English?

JG: He must not have but I mean through Joe he must have done something because... so he decided he wants to live there. This was his dream. Anyway, through Joe and he met my grandmother and that was at Nagoya and my grandmother was a student at the Golden High School or something. It was started by two missionaries in 1889 and it later became this university which I cannot remember at this very moment. But anyway, it was founded in 1889 and I looked it up but cannot remember the name right at this moment.

TI: What's your grandmother's name?

JG: Her name, Tsuna, T-S-U-N-A, Asai Nakayama. So anyway they met and married later and introduced by the missionaries and Joe. And they came to the United States. He came earlier but they were married and she came in 1894. And this was an interesting find because it was through research. I emailed the National Archives in San Francisco and this crackerjack researcher helped me and I told her I would like her to look up anything she could on my grandmother and she actually found the ship my grandmother came on. I was thrilled to pieces and that particular ship years later was the "Titanic of the West Coast." The Rio de Janeiro and there is a monument to it in San Francisco by the... well anyway it's over there in San Francisco.

TI: And why was it called the "Titanic of the West Coast"?

JG: Because it sank and many people died.

TI: Okay.

JG: You could look it up on the internet.

TI: Okay, yeah, no I'm curious.

JG: It was a fascinating story.

<Begin Segment 5>

TI: Talking about your grandmother and grandfather on the Nakayama side. But before we talk more, I'm just curious, did you hear any stories, were there any difficulties being a Christian in Japan during this time?

JG: I think so. I didn't hear specifically but I would think so.

TI: So you didn't hear anything specific that they --

JG: I did not hear anything specific at that time and my grandmother -- because I never knew my grandfather because he died in the '30s before my mother and father got married -- and all I know that this woman is intrepid. [Laughs] She was like four foot eleven or maybe four foot seven, she had size one shoes, but this woman, I could you stories about this woman that impresses me. I mean, I am going to write so many stories on my grandmother.

TI: Well, tell me a couple of them. I mean, we're talking about your grandparents on that side so your grandmother, what was her name, oh, Tsuna.

JG: Tsuna, yes.

TI: And so tell me something about her.

JG: Well, Tsuna, she was a very interesting woman. First of all, her father... she moved to Kyoto, I should go back, she moved to Kyoto when she was -- no, Nagoya when she was five. And she went to this Christian high school and she was in the first graduating class, so I mean she was just sort of this unusual young girl. And I'm just thinking about her and that she... when she got here, her son, she encouraged her son to be excellent and he was in the band and he played the tuba, he goes to medical school first generation right? He's in World War I as a medic.

TI: So this is all in the United States?

JG: All in the United States. Her father worked for the Jinrikisha Company which later became Studebaker. Her (father's father) was Dr. Asai, a medical doctor, I know nothing about her mother. But this woman comes here to the United States, I mean, it's tough. She raises her son, they don't have children almost eleven or twelve years later but while her husband is working as a house person on the railroad, she later -- they have boarders in their, wherever they're staying. Every place there are boarders, one of the boarders later became prime minister of Japan during the war. Well, he lived as a boarder at my grandfather's and grandmother's home when he was a student. I have all that information downstairs in my car. I mean, it's just they did things, they had Japanese-Japanese as boarders, they had Germans and Irish people as boarders, men, you know. And they started a farm.

TI: And then where... explain where was this boarding happening?

JG: In Oakland. I have a list of these different places they lived through the census records and photographs of my mother when she was growing up. They had a farm there, they were raising food, this is in Oakland mind you, and chickens, and I don't remember ever eating a chicken growing up because they must have killed and eaten a lot of chickens. And to this day I love chicken. [Laughs] But my mother never served it. And then finally around 1915, in the census records in 1920 they are now merchants. They had a grocery store and she ran that grocery store until the war in Oakland, downtown Oakland area. And the reason I know this is because my grandmother, after my grandfather died, she would go all over the place from downtown Oakland, West Tenth Street area around that area, downtown Oakland area, and she'd take several buses and visit friends as far as Hayward, if you can believe it. I mean, I don't think you really have an idea how difficult that is to take buses and trains to Hayward from downtown Oakland. I rode the buses from east Oakland to Cal and it took way over an hour. And so going to Hayward it would be a two hour trip. And so she was in her sixties and seventies and eighties doing this visiting friends weekly. She would come to my mother's house, our house, and she would sew but it would also give her an opportunity to see the other grandmother who was taking care of my sister, you know, while my mother and father were working and I was going to school. But she was so beloved, I mean, the cat loved her even.

TI: And she was just this tiny woman.

JG: She was this tiny woman. One story was that this little cat, every Thursday would go to the bus stop at the same time to greet Grandmother and walk her back because she always had treats. My grandmother was so nice that when it was a windy day two young women got off the bus stop and because it was so windy and she was so small, grabbed her on both arms and took her to our house. [Laughs]

TI: So she must have had quite a personality.

JG: She was a lovely woman, lovely woman. And this tiny woman. Another friend, Mrs. Endo, who's the granddaughter of this woman that my grandmother befriended, the story goes that in Japan this young woman, Mrs. Ukai, her mother died and so the father went to the United States and he was going to send money back so these children lived with different relatives. So when he remarried and had a nursery, he said, "Please come over. I will help you with your education." But in reality she was there to help with the children. So my grandmother stepped in and sort of became her mother because she was sort of like a Cinderella story and my grandmother arranged their marriage and as the children grew up they would come, Grandmother would visit or they would come and visit. Mrs. Endo told me, she is now ninety-two. She said, "Your grandmother was so nice." She said, "Oh, we would go and visit her about once a year and they had this lovely store and there would be these jars of candy and I could smell the noodles cooking and we would go in the back and your grandmother would have this lovely meal for us and then we'd go home with little packages of candy." And she said that was such a treat. This woman is ninety-two years old remembering this story, sharing how my grandmother would come also when she was a girl, my grandmother would take several buses and trains to come and visit Ms. Ukai who was Mrs. Endo's mother and visit with her and listen to her.

TI: That's a good story. So just the, probably she tells the smells and everything just from prewar, going to the store.

JG: This is got to be in the '20s and '30s because I mean she's ninety now.

SF: Was the store a kind of a general store that served everybody?

JG: Yes, it was a general store but I imagine they served mostly the Japanese community, you know. But I imagine Caucasians went there, too. And the thing about that was they not only did that and had the farm because my grandfather... my Uncle Tyler remembers Grandpa Nakayama at whatever period, was it '20s or '30s, must have been the '20's, driving the cart all the way out to Hayward. If you could imagine driving a cart and a horse all the way to Hayward to sell vegetables and stuff it's just... I couldn't believe it. I mean, hearing these stories from Ms. Ukai... I mean Mrs. Endo, Ms. Ukai's daughter. (Narr. note: Her maiden name was Ukai and her married name is Mrs. Tsuchiya.)

<Begin Segment 6>

TI: I want to back up to something you said earlier, that your mother's brother, older brother, served in World War I?

JG: Yes.

TI: So this is your uncle?

JG: Yes, the one that was a doctor.

TI: Yeah, so he... do you know any stories about that, about your uncle serving during World War I?

JG: Well, he actually did not go to Europe, he was a medic and he was stationed in Washington State as far as I know because I see pictures of him in Washington and he was very young because this was between 1917 around that time, huh. So let's see, he was born in '95.

TI: 1895?

JG: 1895.

TI: So would he be twenty-two then, about twenty-one, twenty-two?

JG: Yeah.

TI: So that's interesting. Yeah I'm just curious when... I'm jumping around a little bit but he's a veteran of World War I. During World War II what happened to him?

JG: He was a practicing physician in Cincinnati and out of that zone of Washington, Oregon, California. (Narr. note: Joe actually graduated from the University of Cincinnati Medical School in 1924.)

TI: How did he end up in Cincinnati?

JG: Well, he went to medical school at the University of Cincinnati. He did pre-med at UC Berkeley and so did, everybody in the family went to UC Berkeley one time or another except my mother who made sure we girls had an education.

TI: But were there any thoughts then during the war -- I'm jumping around a little bit -- of the family going to live in Cincinnati with your uncle?

JG: Actually my grandmother and my aunt did, they did. And the reason being is my uncle was a medic, my other uncle was a medic in Europe. He and my dad volunteered. (They went to Cincinnati after we left Topaz.)

TI: But his sister, or your mother, decided to go to camp and not to Cincinnati.

JG: Exactly, and I don't know why that decision. But I also know that they got out of camp early which was --

TI: Right, yeah, we'll get to that. So just in terms of siblings for your mother, so we talked about your uncle who was in World War I. How many other siblings were there?

JG: Well, two, and both of them died. The younger sister died -- that I was named for -- in almost child, as a baby, she was like three days old. And the other one died of the influenza epidemic.

TI: Okay, so it was just your uncle and your mother and there was a quite a bit of age difference between the two also.

JG: Yes, well, actually there's a big age difference between the brothers. 1895 and 1908, Tyler was born in '08 and Mother was born in '11.

TI: So that's sixteen years, that's quite a bit.

JG: Well, that's kind of normal in our family. I have two sons and they're twenty years apart. [Laughs]

TI: Wow, okay. We'll get to that later so... anything more about your grandfather before we move on to your life? We talked a little bit about your grandmother on the Nakayama side. I guess you didn't know as much 'cause he, first he... you talked about the store, anything else though like in terms of personality or anything that you know?

JG: All I know is that he was a very kind, good-hearted person. He also worked with herbal medicines with the Japanese community, I heard that. And a lot of this information comes from the Endos because they were very close family friends and saying how kind he was and how hard working because he was missing from doing these train trips and then doing whatever he had to do to... I have to think he must have had a very, very difficult life. And that's all, and my mother, she was very closed about, you know. But he was such an older father, you've got to realize that he's 1869, so about. (Narr. note: He actually lied about his age so he could continue to work for the railroads. On his gravestone it says1870 but Grandmother Nakayama told Aunt Mitsu that he was actually ten years older which would place his birth around 1860.)

TI: Right, so and your mother was born 1911?

JG: Yeah.

TI: So he was in his forties I guess when... yeah, so when your mother was a teenager he was in his fifties, sixties.

JG: Yeah.

TI: Okay.

<Begin Segment 7>

TI: Well, let's move to your mother. And let's look because she did some interesting things when she was growing up also. So what was your mother like?

JG: Well, my mother was... it's interesting because I got a different take on her in some ways. She was always encouraging, always, but she was also very determined and she had very definite ideas, too. But she did it in a nice way, at least I thought so. [Laughs]

TI: Oh, so not everyone thought so? [Laughs]

JG: Well, okay, I will give you some examples. My mother while she was growing up was very social. I saw a lot of pictures with her and her friends. She was very involved with the church community and went to conferences, you know how all those church conferences were going on and she did a lot of that. I can remember Mother saying that she was superintendent of the school, the Sunday school at West Tenth Episcopal Church in Oakland. And so anyway, this was pre-World War II and she had made the comment that they would not send relief and help to Japan. We were Americans so I don't know, I guess this was her feeling, you know. And so it was interesting, she would make statements like when we got married we were married by three ministers, different ministers at the church so they were well thought of and wanted to include everybody. Frank Aaron Smith and another minister, and she said, "We had a very simple ceremony," because we were talking about our wedding and she said, "And we cleaned up the church after our wedding." [Laughs] So she was basically telling me that I was going to have a simple wedding too because that's what the family did. When she was growing up she was a good student and I think I told you but I will share it again that when she was in high school she wanted to go to college but there was really no money to do that. So her teacher, Miss Brawthen, who was the secretarial teacher, shorthand and all that, she thought so much of my mother that she spent the summer dictating to her so she could be prepared for the test for civil service. So my mother became the first Asian woman or minority to pass that civil service exam. It was in 1929. So I was... she was very proud of that you know. Miss Brawthen was a lifelong friend because when she had her, ten years later when my mother was going to get married, or nine years later, she had a wedding shower for her. So, I mean, my mother was always regarded well. And a few years after her hiring at the Board of Education she became secretary to the superintendent of adult education and held that position for thirty-seven years. She worked at Merritt Business School before that.

TI: But back in 1929, what kind of work did she do after she passed the civil service exam?

JG: She worked at Merritt Business School as a secretary and then she went over to the board.

TI: Okay, and so when the war broke out, what position was she in?

JG: Oh, she was the secretary to the superintendent of adult education and that I think is really interesting too because when Mom ended up in the camp, she taught ESL or English as a Second Language to the Issei and all the materials came from the Oakland Board of Education. And another interesting aside is the fact that all the ladies, all the secretaries, all her friends, they would write to her but one time, and she kept this, they sent this big long letter that must have been three or four feet long because each wrote something and they pasted it together, made it like a folded paper letter and it was huge and she kept it. I still have that letter. It was very gossipy, so and so got married, so and so has a new boyfriend, so and so has a new baby, things like that. They were very supportive of my mom and kept her in their heart. And I have two books or three books, some of my favorites like Make Way for the Ducklings and Babar and a couple of other books that I love to this day that were from Mom's friends. One of them was the superintendent of elementary education, Gretchen Wulfing, who held that position for years, from Fanny Bulger, different people. I mean I have these books still from that time.

TI: That they sent to your mother for you?

JG: For me in Topaz.

SF: You mentioned that your family wasn't very supportive of Japan before the war.

JG: That's right.

SF: So you never got involved in like making those, what do you call those, gift packages or for the soldiers? So were there other things like that sort of... your mom sort of showed her political views in a sense?

JG: Yeah, she did. But later what I found out was strange because I found the voting records. My mother was a Republican, registered Republican and my uncle was a registered Democrat. And they voted regularly and I remember growing up having pictures of Ronald Reagan, you know, they gave money. And here we are staunch Democrats or Independents. [Laughs]

[Interruption]

TI: But the question I haven't asked is your mother and father, how did they meet?

JG: Oh, that's interesting, they met through church. They met at West Tenth and I think my father... I remember giving this speech at their fiftieth anniversary and they met at church and my father pursued my mother and of course I think my mother thought he was very nice. And my father would be at the house all the time, visiting at the house, and my grandmother would walk through the house winding the clocks... hint, hint, time to get out of here. [Laughs]

TI: Now did your mother have a lot of suitors back then?

JG: I have no idea but I think some people... my mother was a very with it lady, she was very fashionable, she was very smart, you know.

SF: Were most of her girlfriends Nihonjins?

JG: She had hakujin girlfriends and Nihonjin girlfriends exactly because she was kind of different because she went out of the box. And I think after World War II when we came back because of the Duvenecks, and because of the suggestion by the government that, "We want you to disperse," that we moved to east Oakland. Oh, no that's not true because we moved to east Oakland before the war started. So she was... she and dad were different.

TI: I think a lot of it I mean just she worked ten years in this... she passed this civil service exam, I mean it's very different occupation than many people had back then, many Niseis. So that's probably why also just being exposed to different things.

JG: Yeah, because they bought their house in the early '40s and had that house and it was landscaped and everything, the brand new house before the war started. So I mean, I have pictures of my dad watering the lawn and the little plants and stuff. I mean it was really nice.

<Begin Segment 8>

TI: Start the second part and we're going to start talking about your life, your childhood memories. And you mentioned right before the war your mother and father bought a house. And do you remember that house?

JG: Oh, I do because I can even remember going to the hallway during the drills, how we were doing those, well, you wouldn't remember.

TI: So this was right after the bombing of Pearl Harbor there were drills or something?

JG: Yes.

TI: And so describe that. What kind of drills?

JG: Well, the sirens would ring, would blow, I mean, it's more horn like, I don't know how I can remember this but I do. And I remember you had to go to a place where there were no windows. So there was only one place in our house that had no windows and that was our tiny hallway and we had to make sure all the... no lights were on and we had to sit there until the air raid sirens would go off... or go on again.

TI: And do you remember what kind of feeling you had during these times?

JG: Well, it wasn't good. I mean, why are we in this hallway, you know.

TI: I mean like were you frightened or could you just pick up --

JG: All I know is that right now the way I remember it is that it was not "why are we here," you know, it was like, "I don't understand."

TI: It's amazing how much... 'cause you're only three and half years old at this point, you were born in 1938, yeah so it would be three and half years old.

JG: Yeah.

TI: So it's just how much you can pick up when these... I'm guessing your parents had a lot of anxiety perhaps or feelings during this time.

JG: I do remember, it's so funny, this is really weird. I can remember someone coming to the door and saying, I said, "Who are you?" And the person said, "I'm a G-man," and I said, "Are you the garbage man?" [Laughs]

TI: Wow. And why were you visited by a G-man... meaning FBI?

JG: Or government person. I don't know why I remember that story. I mean, I do not remember why I remember that but apparently they were visiting the neighborhood and visiting our neighbors too. But that's the only thing I remember because my mother remembers my saying, "Are you a garbage man? "[Laughs] But how would I know that because I was only really young. It might be postwar or it must have been postwar because how could a four or five year old know G-man? Although I think my mother would say I was pretty precocious because I had gone to... while my mother and father were working I went to this nursery school, preschool. And these were church friends, Mrs. Smith and her son later became a minister and we met in Chicago while he was going to Loyola, no DePaul and that was during time when I went to Chicago and I also went to school there later. But anyway this particular friends, it was an interesting time because he was doing the Selma marches that year too but that was in the '60s. That's another aside.

<Begin Segment 9>

TI: Okay, so let's... when your family went to camp, do you remember that?

JG: Actually I do because I was appalled by the house, I mean, our quarters because could you imagine going from a brand new house, I mean a brand new house with brand new lawn with a nice dog and then being in a little small space. And I can actually see the tarpaper and the studs and the pot belly stove. I mean, I can still remember that, I don't know why. And the other thing I can remember was the bathroom. I mean, here we had this lovely bathroom and here we had no privacy and I think that must have bothered all the Japanese Americans, huh? Because at that time the toilets were totally open. There was no privacy. You just sat down in front of everybody and the showers too. And that was so, I mean, we hadn't gone through junior high where you had to take showers in front of girls but can you imagine taking showers in front of everybody? And later then they put up the curtains and stuff but all I could remember was the open showers and the toilets. I had a real problem with that because I can remember too having to go the bathroom and we had no place to go the bathroom on the train so my mother said, "Come over here," and between the two trains she laid down newspaper and I went... I defecated. I remember that to this day and here I was under five, three or four, can you imagine that kind of memory? It was so embarrassing, so shameful, but it was a memory I have. So when you ask me do I remember camp and memories of camp, yeah I have some very unpleasant memories. Now I know the junior high kids and the probably school age kids... see, I did not like their kindergarten.

TI: In camp you mean?

JG: In camp and I was also pre-kindergarten too and I didn't like kindergarten. I had this nice nursery school with... I don't know why I didn't like... you know what? What's really strange and I have to admit this because it's kind of saying that I'm a little racist too, I had never seen so many Japanese people in my whole life because I was in this community with all Caucasian people. Isn't that strange? Maybe we'll edit that out too. [Laughs]

TI: No, I think that's interesting, we've heard that quite a bit.

JG: Really?

TI: Yeah, depending... I mean, there's some Japanese Americans who grew up in a Japanese American community and things didn't change that much. But if you came from a different environment where there weren't that many Japanese, it was shocking to come to an environment where there were thousands and thousands of Japanese.

JG: Well, thank you for saying that because I was thinking that's terrible to admit. And there were a few... there was some family members, okay, and there were maybe one close family friend that my mother stayed in contact from the Japanese community but other than that I had no other contact. And then I had a very unpleasant situation too where, I think which prompted my leaving is that there was a young man who was curious so he invited me and another person there and he was a twelve year old, and he exposed himself and I went home and told my mother about that. And shortly thereafter we ended up going to the Duvenecks'. Maybe that prompted our leaving because when she wrote the letter... no, when Mrs. Duveneck wrote to the Topaz Times and offered the opportunity for a person from Topaz to go back to California and she offered a place to do a transition, a job so they could transition back to life in California, my mother took it and maybe that prompted her to get me out of camp. Because one, I was unhappy because of that situation, two, I didn't like the food, well no one liked the food. But I was used to... everybody was used to better food.

TI: I'm curious, when that twelve year old boy exposed himself, what were the repercussions? Did you see anything happen to the boy or anything?

JG: I don't remember. All I know is I got out of there and told my mother and my mother took care of it.

TI: And when you say took care of it, what did she do?

JG: Well, what she did was she got us away from camp and me out of this situation where I had memories of... I really don't have many good memories. I do remember my Aunt Ruth, who is nine years older than I actually went for a walk and I can remember getting a lot of mosquito bites but we must have walked, it seems to me that we walked outside the gates. Because how could we walk far if we hadn't walked outside the gates? I don't know where we walked to but I got a lot of mosquito bites.

TI: And so this was again Topaz?

JG: Topaz. And then the other thing I do remember is that man getting shot at the wire so there was a lot of unpleasant memories for me as a young child. I did not have like school or things like that to get my thoughts off of it. Whereas I understand that people in the school age had better memories. My aunt said that she had a very good teacher, a very caring Caucasian teacher that she liked very much and then I've heard that there are other people who had good experiences. I remember that Japanese man whose actually became later a television star, I'm trying to think of his --

SF: Jack Soo?

JG: Yeah, Jack Soo, he was a neighbor of my mother in Oakland and he tried to organize things for the young people so they could forget. And then I went to a production of something at the Park Street Church in Oakland where they did a celebration of the relocation and they talked about the song, playing that record "Don't Fence Me In," that kind of thing. So some people had very good memories of their life there whereas I could remember things like my mother getting asthma and being hospitalized, the tension in the camp because my dad volunteered and my uncle volunteered, that kind of thing. So they may not have said anything but I felt it. Because I think as a child you feel things, you may not be able to put them into words but as an adult and talking about it you realize what might have contributed and that's my guess.

<Begin Segment 10>

SF: What are your recollections of when your dad volunteered for the 442 or what the feeling was and how people would react?

JG: I cannot say that I know what the feeling was. All I know is that afterwards it was articulated to me what the feelings were. We talked about it and there was a lot of feelings one way or another. Some people were supportive and other people were angry. And today having read some of their feelings and why they came to them, I truly can understand how they felt that way because I mean if you're young and impressionable and someone, and you're a citizen of that country, like the United States, citizens of the United States and they put you in a relocation camp, you could be pretty angry. But then my parents took it more stoically and said, "This is the way it is, this is what's happening, we're going to take it and work our way through it," even though it is was awful.

SF: How did your dad come to the decision to volunteer for the 442?

JG: He said, "I'm an American," you know, that's what it is. "I am not Japanese, I'm not a Japanese national, I am an American. This is what's happening; I will serve my country." That's the way he was.

TI: What was the reaction of your mother? That your dad would volunteer while --

JG: She was supportive, she was very, very... I read some wonderful letters between the two of them on my father's side back, my mother's letters, I don't know if he kept them but I have little photocopies, you know how they send you photocopies, I have those photocopies today of my father's letters to my mother.

TI: And when you say they're really wonderful, I mean do you recall anything in particular?

JG: Oh, yeah, he would say that things are really rough now, not going into to detail because they would be scratched out anyway. When he was in Italy he was part of that group that went up that side of the hill to get out the German nest, you know. I can't even remember the name of that.

TI: Maybe the breaking of the Gothic Line towards the end of the war?

JG: Yes.

TI: Okay.

JG: So anyway they were very loving letters. She was very supportive of him and so to say that when Mrs. Duveneck, the woman who supported the rights of Japanese Americans to have... that she said that this is wrong and she supported them and tried to make their life more comfortable. And by the invitation to go to her home, our life was a lot better. She did so in that when I started school as a six year old, 'cause I just turned six.

TI: Yeah, before I'm going to ask you more about that. But before we go there, going back to your father, do you recall any conversation between your father and you before he left for training?

JG: No, not at all, I don't. All I know is that he made that decision. I have this wonderful picture of him and all the men at that time.

SF: Who left camp?

JG: Who left camp and who volunteered at the same period of time and my uncle is in there and there's just maybe no more than twenty men.

TI: You also mentioned earlier your mother got sick with asthma and had to go to the hospital. When that happened, who took care of you?

JG: Probably my grandmother because they lived next door. See, there was my mother and me in this one little place and then there was my grandmother, grandfather and my Aunt Ruth and my Aunt Mary. My uncle was working somewhere, I don't know why he wasn't in camp but he left early and he was working on the railroad.

SF: Do you remember any feelings about the "loyalty questionnaire"?

JG: No, I don't, all I know I got the residual of it which means that my father said "yes-yes," I'm supportive. Because I don't think a five year old or a four year old -- I understood it later and I could understand both sides.

<Begin Segment 11>

TI: Okay so you talked earlier about there was an ad in the Topaz Times asking if anyone was interested in... and that placed by the Duvenecks. And your mother applied and she was accepted for you and her to go to the Duvenecks'. So let's pick up the story there, I mean, about what time did this happen?

JG: It must have been... the request was signed in March of 1944 and we actually left in May of 1944. What's interesting is that it says June of '44 but on my mind, my mother kept on saying May of '44 so I go with what my mom said.

TI: Although the paper you said, says June?

JG: No, the paper said March.

TI: March.

JG: March was the approval letter.

SF: Did the Duvenecks send request to other camps?

JG: I don't know. All I know is that Mrs. Duveneck said we were the first ones you know. And then thereafter many people came including my two aunts.

TI: And before we go there tell me your first impressions. How did you get from Topaz to the Duvenecks'?

JG: Well, we went by train and we went late and we left late because my grandmother, or the family that was there other than my mother had warned her that she might be shot because of the bigotry on the coast. And so my mother, not to perturb them, decided to leave without fanfare later and we left and we took the ferry and the train I guess... the train and the ferry and then another train and the Duvenecks met us. And all I can remember... what I do remember is that I really liked the place. I got to ride horses, there were two dogs there, this one Scottie and this Saint Bernard and the Saint Bernard was so big, Hans, his name was Hans. And he was so loving he would jump on you and then of course how their jowls drip all this saliva. [Laughs] And I remember the food there was wonderful because you had eggs that you actually took out of the nest and Mrs. Duveneck would take me up to the chicken house and we would gather eggs. And then we'd have oatmeal and real milk and real cream and remember camp had powdered milk or did you hear that it had powdered milk and powdered eggs. My mother would get real eggs every once and a while and give me a real egg but we had our real eggs and real milk which we gathered. And vegetables that were from the garden, the ranch garden. And there were kids on the ranch and we played.

TI: So tell me now who else was on the ranch? So it's you and your mom when you first show up and who else? You had Mrs. Duveneck.

JG: And Mr. Duveneck. Her family they're all grown and away in college or elsewhere and Julius Wahl, he immigrated from Nazi Germany, he was a Jew and he found refuge there, he and his wife. His wife had died by that time, he was there and he was sort of an artist in residence because he hand-carved harpsichords and he was a musician also and he was there. And the ranch foreman and his wife, the Steinmann, they had a niece there, Laura, she was about eight, Carl was seven and then there was the ranch worker there, Elmer Anderson and his wife but they had separate houses. The Steinmann and the Andersons had separate houses. Miriam and Elmer were the mother and father and they had three boys, Gene the boy because I was Jean the girl, and there was Bob and Roger. Roger was the eldest. We were nine, eight, seven, six and five.

TI: So there were lots of kids just your age?

JG: Yes, right, and we all... I have fond memories of climbing this great magnolia tree and I was proud to say that I was second best climber even though I was the second youngest. [Laughs]

TI: So it's such a contrast from being at Topaz.

JG: It was. It was such a contrast. Topaz was sadness and dust and dirt and poor food and lack of privacy. And here we go to the Duvenecks' where there's space and clean bathrooms, well, not that they weren't clean but privacy, your own room, fresh milk, eggs, and fresh vegetables. Kind people, artistic people not that there weren't artistic people in Topaz because there were. And kind people, too.

TI: But just very different circumstances, different conditions.

JG: Yes, and children who had a different kind of life. I don't know if I'm wrong but when you get into a community where there's a lot of fear, people behave differently and when you're in a community where there's a lot of natural things going on like a normal farming... there was more than farming going on at the Duvenecks' because there was also a lot of social justice issues. the Duvenecks were amazing people. They founded the Loma Prieta Chapter of the Sierra Club. She founded a progressive school in Menlo Park, Palo Alto area. She founded the Americans for Democratic Action. She started the first interracial camp in 1945. She was tossed out of the campuses because she dared do that. Imagine putting an African American as the director, Mills College grad, and a Japanese American camp counselor and maybe a Hispanic person with a Caucasian person and having children of all color come together and camp. Her idea was if you get kids together young, they don't see color, they see kids. Anyway she did... and she also started the first youth hostel, I mean there were a lot... she aided the Indians, she visited every single reservation and tried to make their life better. She helped the Japanese Americans, she had when Oakland was having its difficulty with Black Power she had the children come to camp, their children, I mean, Richard Aoki started that movement he was one of the people who started the Black Panthers and they were not that fearful organization, they were trying to do things like "bread basket," it was really misread. Well, Mrs. Duveneck saw that so she... I know you know, Tom, that at her place Cesar Chavez planned the great boycotts. I mean she... this is the woman whose home we went to who saw how wrong it was for the Japanese Americans to be treated and really provided a place of peace, healing for all of us who came there.

TI: Did you stay in touch or keep watching what she was doing later on, I mean after you left?

JG: My parents did and when I moved after... I went to her camp for two years and my parents always went there and I went there with them and then when I moved to Chicago I lost track but my parents kept on going and visited. And then when I came back from Chicago we went to her place and visited and that's when she was writing the book, Life on Two Levels. And she offered my husband and me a position, me to be the hostel manager and John to take care as ranch foreman but I had just signed a contract for teaching and we just bought a house and John just got accepted to San Jose State so he was going back for a degree. And so we had to turn it down but our life would have been so different if we had not done that.

TI: Oh, interesting, yeah.

JG: If we had gone maybe one month earlier before I got my contract.

TI: So yeah I'm curious, I'm jumping around a little bit but earlier you mentioned how you found out your mother a staunch Republican. And Ms. Duveneck was a very progressive liberal. Did politics ever come up between... your mother ever mention about Mrs. Duveneck's politics or anything?

JG: No, she was very respectful and in awe and maybe that's why I am. But I think, of course my mother's politics and my politics are quite a bit different.

TI: Yeah, so I was just curious about that.

JG: I think Mrs. Duveneck had a big influence on me and my politics.

<Begin Segment 12>

TI: Let's talk about the relationship between you and Mrs. Duveneck because in the book she talks very fondly about you, "Jeanie," is, she used in the book and how impressed she was with you as this very cute little girl. What was the relationship like between you and her?

JG: It was very good, when my... she took me out to gather eggs, she in the morning when I was reluctant to eat oatmeal she would say things like, "Oh, there's a great picture at the bottom of the bowl, you should eat more and see what the picture is." [Laughs] She took me to, and my mother... maybe I've told you this I don't know if I have but... to Los Altos School to the PTA meeting before school started and she said, "This is June, my mother whose husband is in Italy now fighting for the Americans, who's fighting just like your husband. And her daughter, Jean, Jeanie, is going to be coming to Los Altos School." There was only elementary school in Las Altos at that time. "And we want her transition to be a good one." So that's how our relationship was. She was always looking out for me. And the other thing is when my mother went back to the house, to open the house in Oakland and to start working for the Board of Education again, there was a period of three months where my aunt took care of me but Mrs. D was the one who read to me in the evening and put me to bed. And she read stories like "Jack the Giant Killer" and the tailor who got, you know, what was it seven and one? [Laughs] Yeah, she was really nice to me. I felt so comfortable with her when she asked me to sweep the front porch for a nickel I told her no. I don't think if I were afraid of her I would have said no.

TI: Did she ever talk about social justice issues with you?

JG: No, she just did it.

TI: So really by example, not by just talking about it?

JG: She never talked about it, she just did it. I mean, there were people visiting, there were conversations... could you imagine being privy to the conversations at mealtime?

TI: How would she react when she saw injustice? I mean, if maybe something on the street or just if someone maybe said a racist comment or anything, how would she react to something like that?

JG: I don't know. I don't know. I would figure out that she would... what she did was she tried to... what I saw that she did was she would do things like the camps, she would try to... it's like healthcare, like the idea that you will take care of it before it develops. She would try to work at it on the level of not saying you're wrong but trying to get in there... it's just like with the Japanese there. She's get in there and help the people who were suffering and then try to get the mindset started early with young children rather than going in from the other side. She'd start as a pre-learning nurturing kind of tact.

TI: So she was very thoughtful in that way because even when you think about going to the PTA meeting before school started, thinking if she did these steps beforehand it would prevent things later on down the road that... so she had a lot of foresight in that way.

JG: Exactly. And she would see things that were wrong and she would help the people who were going through that. And like the planning for the boycotts, she provided that place so it could be planned.

TI: So it wouldn't be done in a really haphazard way but to actually give them the time and the space to do that. That's interesting.

JG I don't think it was haphazard.

TI: No, to prevent that she would give them the planning time.

JG: Because could you imagine like she saw, let's say here's a problem, the American Indians are having this problem. She goes and visits, sees the conditions, then tries to say okay what can we do to help them? So we can empower them by maybe the Indian council, she was nurturing that Indian council early -- did you read that in the book?

SF: No.

JG: You'll just have to read it again. [Laughs]

SF: I will.

JG: But I mean that's the way she did it.

TI: And how was she personality-wise? How would you describe her in terms of personality?

JG: Well, I talked to David Duveneck and he said, "She's not that way with me." [Laughs] She was normal. She was a doer and Frank Duveneck, her husband, was a very kind, supportive person who encouraged and really helped the wife.

<Begin Segment 13>

TI: Earlier you talked about after you and your mom were there and pretty soon other Japanese Americans start coming to the ranch. And I think you mentioned some relatives?

JG: Yeah, my Aunt Mary came and then my Aunt Ruth came she told me. I didn't even know my aunt Ruth came, I later learned that two families who were friends of my parents came after, the Yatabes and the Fujitas. And I didn't know that.

TI: So it was almost like through your mother's connection that others were able to come to the ranch, the Duveneck ranch?

JG: Well, I don't know but I know they were friends of my mothers and I learned that later. And I don't know how I learned that because she didn't tell me.

TI: And what did your mother do at the ranch and the other Japanese Americans? Was there like jobs that they did?

JG: My mother worked helping clean the house, cook, and my mother was -- excuse me -- not a good cook. I mean, she cooked but it wasn't like my grandmother.

TI: And how about the others? When they started coming, your aunts, do what they did?

JG: I think my aunt probably helped with the cooking and the cleaning. I really don't know 'cause I was out playing or at school.

SF: So it seemed like it was kind of community of people kind of took up jobs that had to be done and pitched in.

JG: That's right. She just let them, "We need to do this, would you do this?" Like she said, "Would you sweep the porch?" and I said no. [Laughs]

TI: You swept it but you didn't take the nickel, right? Or you just didn't sweep it?

JG: I didn't sweep it.

TI: Oh, I thought you swept it but didn't take the money, but you didn't do it.

JG: No, I was somewhat of a brat.

TI: I see, okay.

JG: Well, at least looking back on it I think I was a brat not doing it, you know. I mean, if I were really a nice little girl I would've swept the porch and not taken the nickel. But I just said no.

TI: So when you didn't sweep the porch, did she say anything to you?

JG: No, she didn't.

TI: Did she discipline you or anything?

JG: No, she just accepted the fact that I said no. This is so vivid in my mind. I'm really embarrassed to say this.

TI: So that's why her... when you talked with her son, he said, "You have a very different perspective or impression of my mom"?

JG: Grandmother.

TI: Or grandmother.

JG: Yeah, because he lived there at sixteen.

TI: Okay, 'cause she was probably harder on him.

JG: Well, he tells this story about the family. I love this story. They left their things downstairs, their shoes and scarves and whatever... and they were missing. And they said, "Mom, where are they?" She said, "Well, I guess I donated them. I didn't think you needed them." [Laughs] You had to pick up or else they'd be donated.

TI: But those kind of things didn't happen with you though. It was more just the family or were there rules on the ranch?

JG: I am not aware of any rules that were ... it was a smooth thing. I played, I can remember playing and going to school and I hope I was dutiful. I hope, I don't know. [Laughs]

TI: That's good.

<Begin Segment 14>

TI: You mentioned the school. I just wanted to find out so how was it when in September when school started? What was that like for you?

JG: It must have been fine because I really learned how to read well. I have no recollection of the school at all other than that first encounter. All I can remember is that when I got to second grade and went to school in Oakland I was way ahead and so the teacher just left me alone and I had no instruction at all because I had passed that book already.

TI: So that one year in that school you were just able to learn a lot it sounds like?

JG: Yeah, I was and then when I got to Oakland schools they left me alone because I was advanced and I had no extra stimulation or they didn't do any adjustment for the fact that I had... that I was reading well.

TI: During this time when you were at the Duvenecks' did your mother and you ever visit the house? Because you still had this house in Oakland.

JG: I have no recollection of it. I have none whatsoever. I think I told you that we were very lucky in that when the wartime came and you had such a short period of time, mother's friend Eleanor Clark, her (father-in-law)... she worked with my mother and was my mother's friend, her (father-in-law) was involved at the Federal Reserve and I think he was the head of the Federal Reserve at the time. And within that short period of time he arranged to have the mortgage collected and a rental put in place so my parents kept their home.

TI: And so he arranged for renters and with the rent money the mortgage was paid so everything was taken care of.

JG: And I did some research and I found that there were laws in place, there were procedures in place that Japanese Americans could do that but whether they were able to avail themselves to the service or were aware of the services I do not know. It's because my mother was in a place of education that she was fortunate and she had friends who had connections I guess. But we were most fortunate.

TI: I'm looking at the date that you were at the Duvenecks'. And so it was, in terms of returning to the west coast for Japanese Americans very early, I mean you were... you mentioned earlier the first because at this May 1944, the area was still a military exclusion zone and technically Japanese Americans or people of Japanese ancestry were not supposed to be able to come to this area until towards, well actually the beginning of 1945. Do you recall any restrictions like travel restrictions or anything that were placed on you and your mother during this period?

JG: I was not aware any but there may have been that because my mother was not able to back to Oakland remember until September of '45 -- or May of '45 or June of '45.

TI: Yeah, so maybe that's so maybe she was allowed around the ranch and things like that but not beyond that.

JG: Into Los Altos.

TI: Yeah, so I was just curious, yeah if you had known anything.

JG: Well, that could probably explain why she didn't go back to Oakland until the summer of '45.

TI: Yeah, so that would make sense and somehow the Duvenecks arranged for this special situation, for you and your mom to be there.

JG: Well, I understood from what I had read that she was... Mrs. Duveneck was instrumental in helping people transition. So in other words, when she heard that they were trying to do this, she said, "Okay," I imagine, "we can do this. So I'll do this and we'll invite people," and the paperwork was... and my mother was very good with paperwork. She was the great letter writer.

TI: Your mother was.

JG: My mother.

TI: And so she would help other to do this transition? Is that what the letters --

JG: I'm gathering that's what she did because she wrote a lot of letters. She would also write when she saw that someone was doing a good job, she would say: thank you so much I really appreciate your effort, I am really glad that you've done blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and sign her name. So to this day if I see something that goes on like that I do the same thing and it's brought a lot of interesting letters back to me.

TI: Well, it's becoming such a lost art, the writing of letters, you know, like you say it's done so rarely.

JG: Well, now it's emails. [Laughs]

TI: Did your mother ever talk about this... maybe this idea since you were the first that you need to be perhaps on your best behavior? That in some ways if 'cause you weren't good it would make it harder for people to follow?

JG: She never said that. She never said that. Now my aunt might have said that. [Laughs] The Shiraki side have said that.

SF: Did your mom ever mention talking to the camp director or someone like that to get clearance to go back to California?

JG: We have paperwork, it's a form which was approved. So she must have but she never said anything about it. My mother was a doer.

TI: I'm just wondering, I'm almost guessing that the Duvenecks probably even before you and your mom were there probably talked to all the authorities and everything just to make sure that all this was --

JG: Oh, yes I imagine they would have done that because she worked the system. She didn't work against the system, she worked in the system. And I think that is a good thing rather than... it's difficult to work outside the system. I have done that in my life but I found it was easier working to make changes in the system.

TI: It seems that, following this thread, that you learned a lot in this time with the Duvenecks. I mean, there's a lot of influence in terms of maybe even your politics or how you do your life. Are there some other things that come to mind in terms of Mrs. Duveneck or the time at the ranch that you think back to that you now do something a certain way because of that?

JG: Since I've been doing all this work with the Duveneck museum project, I think so. Looking at her life and knowing her, I try to work positively with people, I try to make their lives better, like I have young students and I took an interest in them. The Vietnamese wave and their transition, I think they had a horrific time with the boats and escaping Vietnam and family separation where one part of the family would escape and then... so I really try to make their life at school good. And I try to work on... work with people who were more positive rather that people who... the people who could be assisted I guess rather than people... people who could welcome assistance rather than people who fought it. I used to be politically active in the sense of supporting causes by being in it. So I think that... and sometimes it was contrary to what was mainstream and I'm sure that had that Mrs. Duveneck and Mr. Duveneck really set that example but I think my parents did too. I really, I had differences of politics, but ethics, my mother and father I really think they were ethical and they did what they believed in and I think that I followed that.

TI: That's good.

<Begin Segment 15>

TI: Steve, we just have few more minutes left before we end this interview. Is there anything else you want to cover?

SF: Well, one thing is when did your dad come back from the war and his service with the 442?

JG: It was around Thanksgiving of 1945.

SF: So this was when you were back in Oakland?

JG: Yeah.

SF: He never had any contact with the Duvenecks at the ranch and so forth?

JG: He went back and he had a marvelous friendship with Mr. Duveneck because they were both interested in plants and animals.

SF: What was Frank like as a person?

JG: He was a gentle soul and he had a good sense of humor. I can remember when he would say, "Josephine wrote Life on Two Levels I could write a book on life in the underbelly or life on the lower level." [Laughs] He had a good wit. He was a really kind man. I'll share this one last story with you. Christmas of 1944, he made a dollhouse for me. He made it and I had that dollhouse until just three years ago. And I wish I had saved it because then I could've given it to the museum for the exhibit because... and he gathered... Mr. and Mrs. Duveneck gathered all the furniture and the people. I remember a grandpa an elderly man and a grandma, kitchen furniture, dining room furniture, bedroom furniture, a rug, curtains, could you imagine having that? I wrote to my dad and I said, "Dad, Mr. D made me a dollhouse." He was a kind man.

SF: I don't think you mentioned, but your family went to Tanforan?

JG: Yes.

SF: Do you remember anything about Tanforan? You were really young then.

JG: I don't know if it's memory or hearsay but I remember a lot of confusion. My aunt tells a wonderful story -- and this is hearsay -- she had said that they lived in Oakland around 55th Avenue and she also is a very strong woman, my aunt. And she said that there was this lady, Jessie, and I can't remember her last name and she says, "Ruth, I'm going to drive you and your family to Tanforan. You don't have to take the bus." And my family, my grandparents and, well actually my aunt said, "You could be in trouble." She said, "Ha, I'm taking you over." They were really supportive neighbors, very kind people. They thought it was wrong so what can I say but with the bad we had the good. And a lot of good people we've encountered on our journey.

TI: Good.

SF: One more question?

TI: Okay.

JG: Yes.

SF: Were you involved with the UFW Chavez and all of that when it was really an active social movement?

JG: No, I wasn't. I was more active in the Vietnam kind of thing. The social justice issues, later I supported them in thought, but I did most of my political thing with, like that Vietnam and then for the African Americans during the '60s, that was my bit. I could remember telling my son, older son, remember when we went to Cal we had to sign the loyalty oath? No, you're too young, you're younger. But when I went to Cal you had to sign this loyalty oath. And later on, when my older son went to Cal which was in I think it was '81, he had to sign up for the draft and he says, "I don't believe in it." I said, "You will because you need that scholarship," so I sort of capitulated. I made him, you know, bucking the system.

[Interruption]

TI: Okay, I want to be respectful of your time, it's 12:30.

JG: Wow.

TI: And this has been a wonderful conversation, interview. So thank you so much.

JG: Oh, you're welcome and thank you for giving me the opportunity.

TI: Oh, not at all, thank you. Good.