Densho Digital Archive - Hiroshi Terry Terakawa Interview

<Begin Segment 1>

TI: Terry, the way I start this is I just start with the date and the place. So today is December 2, 2010, and we are at the Japanese American Museum of San Jose. In the room we have Dana Hoshide on the camera, and we have Steve Fugita, who's the co-interviewer, and my name is Tom Ikeda, and I'm with Densho. And this interview is gonna be for both the Densho visual history collection as well as given to the Japanese American Museum of San Jose. So, Terry, I'm just going to start with a basic question. Can you tell me your name that was given to you at birth?

HT: Hiroshi.

TI: And is there any particular significance of the name Hiroshi?

HT: Well, I understand that the Japanese name has a meaning, supposed to be "wide knowledge." I thought that was kind of funny. That's my father, I don't know, I don't know if he had any religious connection at all, but he named me, so I don't know.

TI: Okay, so when I was introduced to you, I was introduced to you as "Terry." Where did the name Terry come from?

HT: The military. And it was given to me by General Van Fleet. He came to our company one day, and we were just kind of casually talking and I got to know him. And somebody came back and said, "Hey, Hiro." And the general looked at me and says, "Is your name Hiro or is it Hero?" I said, "That's my Japanese name." He says, "Well, we can't have two heroes in this war." He says, "I'm the only hero." That's what he told me. So he said, "We'll have to change your name to Terry." So I said, "Fine with me." So since then my name is Terry.

TI: Oh, that's a good story. And at that point, everyone started calling you Terry?

HT: Yeah, so the company, they told, announced that "Hiro is now Terry." And so everybody called me Terry. But they didn't change my paperwork, of course, they can't do that. But all the time everybody calls me Terry, I got used to it. I was getting kind of tired, everybody says, you know, when you in the ship or something, when you get off, they said, "Sound off your last name, sound off first name," and someone would say, "Terakawa Hiroshi." He said, "What?" So now it's easy, so Terry.

TI: And so you decided after the military service, to keep using Terry. Because you could have, at that point, switched back to Hiro.

HT: Well, I didn't ever use "Terry" before that time, so I said, "Hey, that's unique, it's short, so call me 'Terry.'"

TI: So for the purposes of this interview, would you rather that I call you Terry or Hiro?

HT: Oh, yes, use Terry.

TI: Okay, so I'll call you Terry.

<Begin Segment 2>

TI: So, Terry, can you tell me where and when you were born?

HT: Let's see. 1929, January 3, in Kyoto, Japan. I don't know whereabouts that is, I don't know about Japan, but it's near Tokyo, I guess. And I was born in...

TI: Can you spell the place? How do you spell the place?

HT: The name of the place?

TI: Right.

HT: Well, it was near the city of... I can't think of the name. It's fifty years ago. Nagahama. And it's a little village about three miles inland from there, it's called Goshu, G-O-S-H-U, my great grandfather, the temple, Buddhist temple there. So I guess, I think I was born there.

TI: Well, let's talk about that a little bit more. So your great grandfather, so this is on your father's side?

HT: My father's father. He's, of course, a Buddhist minister, with a white beard, and he had a small church out there. What a guy he was. I used to help him, big gong, you know, had a big one in front of the church, he'd use the gong every day and I used to help him, as a little kid, hang on a piece of string. But he was a real good guy. I used to sit on his lap and hide behind his beard, you know, as a kid. And my father would be looking for me, and I'd hide like this. It was funny because my father said, "I wonder where he went." [Laughs] It's so obvious now. That was funny.

TI: And this was your great grandfather?

HT: Yeah.

TI: So he was pretty old when you were...

HT: God, yes, I guess so. He must have been... my father must have been fifty, he must be close to ninety years old, I guess. Yeah, my father... my mother, she was ninety-nine years old. In fact, ninety-nine and eight months. She wanted to be a hundred, but she never made it. My father died in about, I guess, early, about eighties. So my gene is long life.

TI: So you're, like, eighty-one years old now?

HT: Eighty-one now.

TI: So you're still young.

HT: [Laughs] Age-wise, yes, but physically, I don't know. I get pretty tired pretty fast.

TI: So your great-grandfather was a Buddhist minister or priest.

HT: Yes, and his father was, too.

TI: And how about your grandfather? Was he also Buddhist?

HT: My grandfather... yeah, he's the one that was in Goshu, he's... I don't know his father, great-great grandfather I don't know anything about. My grandfather was the one in Japan, with the beard I was talking about. I remember him. God, that was fun. He used to live out in the country. I remember the first time I come from America, there's no buses out there, so we had to walk three miles or four miles in snow, deep snow. And my father used to carry me on his back, and my brother had to walk on the sides because he was mad that my mother used to carry me, and the neighbors, they all carried me because I so short, I'd get lost in the snow out there. But it's funny because I remember this one little town, there's a grade school right off the road, and all the students was looking out the window, and they're laughing because I was wearing American clothes, you know. I had one of those sheepskin coats, one of those furry ones, and god, they used to tease the heck out of us and throw snowballs.

TI: So explain, where did the American clothes come from?

HT: American what?

TI: The American clothes. So is this because you had already been to America and came back?

HT: I don't know where it came from, I never did ask. [Laughs] But I guess he got it first, then he came to American, I guess, before. I don't know, maybe he got it in the Japanese Salvation Army, I don't know. [Laughs] But it was quite an experience the first time.

TI: But on your father's side, it sounds like there was a, generations of Buddhist priests.

HT: Yeah, that's what it was, generation to generation.

<Begin Segment 3>

TI: And so let's talk about your father.

HT: My father.

TI: So what did your, first, what was your father's name?

HT: Chonen. Chonen, that's Buddhist name. C-H-O-N-E-N, and his middle name was Hoko, H-O-K-O. I think that's all given to him by the church, name.

TI: And is there a meaning to that?

HT: I don't know. I never, I didn't ask too much question when I was small. [Laughs]

TI: And so tell me about your father. What did he do?

HT: My father?

TI: Yeah, so what was his occupation?

HT: He was a Buddhist minister.

TI: And was this all Jodo Shinshu?

HT: I guess it would be, yes. But, of course, you got to remember now, I was only four or five years old, so I don't know too much about it. First time I came to America was 1930... is it '32 or '33? And we went to Walnut Grove, California.

TI: And before we go there, can you, is that the first time your father...

HT: Brought me.

TI: Brought you. Do you know if your father had been to United States before that?

HT: I'm sorry, but I don't know. I never asked him. I guess, I suppose he has, but he never mentioned it.

<Begin Segment 4>

TI: And before we come to Walnut Grove, let's talk a little bit about your mother, because they got married in Japan. So let's talk about that first. So tell me about your mother's family.

HT: That was... my father and my mother never discussed my mother's family, 'cause I think she was an orphan. So they never, we never discussed my mother's mother or anything like that, 'cause since she was kind of, being Japanese, that kind of pride, and she was an orphan, and she hasn't got no mother and father. So we kept it at that. But she was ordained as a minister eventually.

TI: Also a Buddhist minister?

HT: Yes.

TI: And what was her name?

HT: Kiyoko Yoshie Terakawa.

TI: And so your father and mother were married in Japan?

HT: Japan.

TI: And do you know how that was arranged, or what was, how did they get married?

HT: I often wondered about that, but typically in Japan it's all baishakunin, you know, they're previewed. Neighbors say, "Oh, this guy's single, this guy's..." they found a, it's like a marriage counselor in Japan. Most of the people I know in Japan, they were all married baishakunin. Not anymore, but I think he met her at, he was a teacher in some university in Japan. He was teaching, a judo instructor, kendo instructor, and he was a newspaper editor for a big newspaper when he was about twenty, nineteen, twenty. He was a very educated guy, you know. And my mother also was, but she never told me too much about her life, 'cause she was ashamed of the fact that she was an orphan. So I just never asked. So don't ask me about my mother, I don't know.

TI: But in terms of their marriage, do you think it was arranged, or do you think it was more of a love relationship?

HT: I don't know. I really can't tell you yes or no. It might be just love at first sight as far as that's concerned. My father was very secretive about those things.

<Begin Segment 5>

TI: Did your father ever talk about his reasons for coming to the United States?

HT: Well, he had no choice. Being a Buddhist minister, they said, they told him that, "There's an opening in America, I want you to go to America." "Okay," he just said, yes and no. And he came to San Francisco, to main office, then they select what church he goes to, and you don't argue, you go. Nowadays little bit different, but before they said, Bishop said, "You go to this church," you go whether you like it or not. So he went to Walnut Grove, which he disliked, I believe, because we were there a very short time in Walnut Grove. And then he was very unhappy, so I think that's why maybe he went back to Japan to get transferred to some other church.

SF: Why did he, why was he unhappy at Walnut Grove? Why was your dad unhappy at Walnut Grove?

HT: I'm sorry?

SF: Why didn't your dad like Walnut Grove?

HT: I don't know. I guess it's the whole environment. He just... that town is strange town, you know. The Chinese on one, and Japanese on side of the street, and they don't ever talk to each other. And we can't walk through the Chinatown, we had to walk around it, you know. And maybe, maybe he had some kind of problem with his congregation, I don't know.

SF: How did you find Walnut Grove?

HT: Well, I had a good time. As a kid, it doesn't matter where you go, you could have fun. And I lost a couple of my best friend in Walnut Grove by accident. It was really an old western town. There was no sidewalk, actually. [Laughs] It's all wood, you know, and streets was all dirt. But my father is, he just, he just got tired, I don't know. But all I know is he said we're gonna go back.

TI: Now, Terry, you said that you lost a couple of your friends in Walnut Grove? Can you tell me about that?

HT: Yeah, well, one drowned in the river over there, and the other one is, we were playing out in the warehouse area and there's a lot of warehouse with the corrugated steel roof. We used to get up there and slide down that thing, you know. And one time there was about four or five of us and my brother. He was coming down this thing, and nobody noticed that there's a live wire going across, telephone wire or something. And nobody noticed it. But we just go down there and we just subconsciously duck. And this one person, he was talking, he's laughing, he was coming down, and boom. We saw big white smoke, and that was it. Next thing we know, there was a black thing hanging from the wire. It was sad, you know, to lose a friend. What a horrible thing. But I just forgot that, so I never talk about that, recall. I forgot everything.

TI: When that happened, do you remember what your father told you?

HT: I can't remember. I could imagine he beat the heck out of me for letting that happen, that I should be more responsible for friends. He always said, "Always look after your friends," you know. So I felt bad. I didn't know how to face the parents, of course, but I imagine they were mad at me, I don't know. Maybe just one of the reasons he just wanted to get away from Walnut Grove.

TI: Because in that group, were you one of the older boys?

HT: I was the second oldest. My brother was older than I am. And I got all the punishment, he didn't get too much. My father, I think, he favored him or something, but he can do no wrong. So I guess that's one of the reasons we left Walnut Grove. I didn't think about that. There wasn't much of a future there, for one thing. And it's a small town like that, some parents get mad at you, or get mad at your father, and he had no defense, you know. So maybe that's why he felt uncomfortable, maybe that's why he came back. He went back to Japan to go, reassignment.

TI: That's interesting.

<Begin Segment 6>

TI: When you were at Walnut Grove, did you ever attend school, grammar school there?

HT: Kindergarten, yeah. Yeah, that's where I met my first girlfriend. [Laughs] Yeah, she was really nice.

TI: One of the things I heard when I was in Walnut Grove, I did some interviews there, their schools were segregated.

HT: Yes, everything was segregated, it seemed like, the whole town. We could go this part, they could go this part, we had different schools.

TI: Yeah, because you're right, there's a Japanese section, a Chinese section, and then across the other side is the white?

HT: Let's see. There's river, Japantown, Chinatown, railroad track, and farming area.

TI: And then on the other side of the river is the, is where the whites lived.

HT: I don't know who in the heck lived there.

TI: Yeah, the whites lived on that side.

HT: I assume they did, 'cause we never went over there because we just know where to stay. So we would stay in our town, play in our streets. It was ours. And there's a lot of ghost story going on to that town. It's a real strange town. Speaking of ghosts and all that.

TI: What would, what would be a ghost story? I didn't hear any ghost stories.

HT: Well, there's a couple of old warehouses that supposed, somebody died there or something before, and we used to go over there, and it's kind of spooky, the warehouses, two empty warehouses. I remember farmer throwing the dirt up in there, the dirt would fly through the air, and when he hits the two warehouses, it's starts swirling. It's, something was taking over, and it just disappears. Now I know why that happens, but to us it was a ghost. Obake, obake. Boy, we'd run like heck. [Laughs] My father, he just went along with it. He laughed, you know, and he said, "Yeah, you better stay away from there." I remember that. It's the little things that you really enjoyed, you remember.

TI: Yeah, I remember Walnut Grove, so where the Buddhist church was, behind there there was big fields...

HT: Oh, that's funny, too. My father, the Buddhist church, every time it was soushiki or kekkonshiki, whatever, everybody bring mochi, obutsudan, right? And we don't like to eat those things. So my father used to, after church he would put those in a box outside. And once in a while, my father and I, we'd go out there and get the old boxes, then they're hard as a rock. And we used to stand in back of the church and to the baseball park, I think it's maybe a hundred yards away, and we used to throw, see how far we could throw the manju. Manju, that's what it was. We used to throw these things over the hill. My father was a baseball player, too, and he could throw those things miles. And I used to throw, we used to throw these mochi over the baseball fence. And a couple time he forgot that there's going to be a baseball game next day, and my father and I couldn't, we go to baseball park, and we'd sit down, all of a sudden we'd see lot of white things all over the field. And I said, "Dad, what's those things." Said, "Don't..." I could see all the congregation going, "What the heck is all that?" [Laughs] They had to stop the game, clean all those things up. Oh, it was so funny.

TI: [Laughs] Maybe that's why he had go, too.

HT: Maybe he got kicked out of town. [Laughs]

TI: So your dad was not a traditional, it doesn't sound like he was a traditional Buddhist minister. He had a fun side to him.

HT: Well, yeah, we broke him into it. He had no choice. Me and my brother, we used to joke around with him a lot. In fact, we had twelve police dog as a pet.

TI: Twelve police dogs?

HT: Yeah.

TI: And this is in Walnut Grove?

HT: Yeah, in the backyard, we had a pretty big backyard, fenced. Saw a dog, we had to take care of it. Oh, my god. And he had an old beat up Cadillac four-door convertible, church car. Oh, that was fun. My brother and I, you crank that thing to get it started, putt-putt-putt. [Laughs] And Walnut Grove is kind of below the levee, my god, we had a hard time getting up that thing, putt-putt-putt. It was fun days. I still get in touch with those people, you know, those people that lived there. In fact, one lives in San Jose. Two families lived in San Jose from Walnut Grove. It brings back good memories, though, you know? You don't forget.

TI: Yeah, it's a nice town. I like it.

HT: I'd like to go there again.

TI: If you go there now, the town is still there. The old buildings are still there.

HT: Really?

TI: You would really enjoy going back there.

HT: God, I remember there was one hotel there, it was, I think, two story or three story, hotel right on the levee. But I never... we used to say all the rich people, rich people that lives there. Oh, lot of tragedy happens in a small town, you know, you see people drowning out there and committing suicide, I guess. My father, I guess he just got tired of all that.

<Begin Segment 7>

TI: So your father leaves, the family leaves Walnut Grove, and you go back to Japan?

HT: Yeah, he was there for about a year, I guess. And then we went back to Japan in 1934, then we came back to Marysville. And that was a bigger town, and we thought, "Oh, man, big city." They got sidewalks. [Laughs] That was a good town. You know where Marysville is, by Yuba City? There was a big Japanese population over there. There was a lot of farmers.

TI: But although it was bigger, it didn't have a Buddhist church.

HT: No, they did not have a Buddhist church. They used to use the big hall, and the school next to the hall. So my father said, "Let's build a church." So they built a church. My father was helping with the architect, designing, "I want some of this here," so he designed the kind of church over there. So that's his hobby, he designed things. Maybe that's why I took it on. [Laughs] And then we had a living quarter in the back, nice living quarters, two-story building. And that was Marysville. I went there, by the way, about, just about ten, twelve years ago, first time, to look at the place, and all the things that I thought was gigantic was so small, you know. We used to go down this hill in the roller skates or something, and I remember I was so scared, it was so tall. We walked over there, I looked up and said, "Where's the hill?" It's so small. [Laughs] It's amazing, huh? I mean, you go to the old town and you know, when you were small.

TI: 'Cause you were only, what, maybe seven, eight years old?

HT: Yeah, that's right. I was still a young kid. Went to grade school there, I remember that. And I remember there was lots of mean kids on that school. I used to have a lady, girlfriend, she lived in San Jose. I don't know what happened to her, I'll look her up. She was a tough... she would say, "Come on, I'll walk you home."

TI: I mean, so your girlfriend walked you home?

HT: Yeah, she used to walk me home. One time I got in trouble, she got the lunch bucket, she just beat the heck out of everybody and I go, "Oh, my god." [Laughs]

TI: When you said there were "mean people," who were these mean people?

HT: Oh, they're kids. Kids are kids.

TI: Like Japanese kids?

HT: No, it's hakujin. God, that was so funny. I was really chicken I guess. But those kids are mean, you know, I don't want to be beat up. So she goes... [laughs].

<Begin Segment 8>

TI: Now when you were growing up and at this age, by being the son of the Buddhist minister, was there certain expectations?

HT: Yeah, we couldn't do lot of things. We're restricted. Lot of people, maybe... those younger days we didn't do really nothing bad, but, of course, when you're small kids, I remember they used to smoke, but we couldn't do those things. Or we couldn't swear, we couldn't do, we couldn't do lot of things. We were restricted. That's one thing I didn't, I really didn't like about being a minister's son: you can't do anything. You had to be pure, because it reflects on your father. If anybody said, "Oh, the Sensei's kids are bad," that's not too good. So we had to really behave ourselves. That was rough.

TI: So even things like if a bully kind of picks on you, are you able to fight back?

HT: We would, but we try and talk our way out. We could avoid him, say, "I don't want trouble." They might, some people probably call you chicken because of that, but I says, "It's not being chicken." There's no sense in fighting. What you gonna accomplish? You gonna lose friends? But sometimes fighting is good for you because you become the best friends. And you fight with somebody, you win or they win, then all of a sudden, you become very good friends. Then you start helping each other out. And that's human nature, I guess.

SF: Speaking of friends, who were your friends? Were they mostly Nihonjins?

HT: Yeah, most of 'em, all Nihonjin. They all passed away already, though. Yeah, all my friends except one, he lives in San Jose. Yeah, they all passed away. I haven't been in touch with any of 'em except one that lives here right now. He had a girlfriend there, too. [Laughs]

TI: Terry, you've mentioned your brother, can you tell me all your siblings? Can you talk about that?

HT: My siblings?

TI: Your siblings.

HT: All seven of 'em?

TI: All seven of them. So who's the oldest?

HT: Bruce. He's the oldest, he's retired now.

TI: Now these are your children? I wanted, not your children, but your brothers and sisters.

HT: Oh, my brother and sister. My brother, he was older than I was, about four years.

TI: And what was his name?

HT: Shigeru. He was the one that was gonna be a Bonsan at Seattle, Washington. And my sister is Sumiko, she, I think she came to America after the war. And she got married. She didn't do anything special, she still lives here in San Leandro. That's the only connection, my only relative I have, so we keep in very close touch. She's about eighty-nine years old now. She's old. [Laughs] I just saw her the other day for Thanksgiving, and we see each other every year, and she was so small. God, I looked and said, "Are you shrinking or something?" [Laughs] I remember her as... 'cause when we were small, she used to beat me up.

TI: So Sumiko and then Shigeru...

HT: Oldest is Sumiko, and then Shigeru, I think, and me.

TI: Any younger brothers or sisters?

HT: No, I did have an older brother who passed away before I was born. I think he died of smallpox or something.

<Begin Segment 9>

TI: And so going back to Marysville, your father didn't stay there that long either.

HT: About three years, I think. Three or four years.

TI: And then why did he leave Marysville?

HT: I don't know. Everybody liked him, they built a church for them and everything else. I think... the church is funny. They move people around, you know? And maybe he just wanted a bigger congregation maybe, I don't know. I never did pry into his problems. But all I know is he said, "We're gonna go back to Japan for a while. Then we took off, said goodbye everybody, had a big farewell party and went to Japan. And I don't remember all those things happened. And that's funny 'cause when I was three years old I remember all the stuff in Japan, coming over. But the last two time, I don't remember anything except we stopped in Hawaii. We had fun. [Laughs] But other than that... we stayed at my auntie's place in Kyoto. I don't remember too much of my childhood from there until I went to Salt Lake.

TI: Okay, so let's talk about Salt Lake. So about 1938 he comes back to...

HT: Yeah, that's late '38, I think.

TI: So he comes to, you're almost ten years old, I think.

HT: Yeah, I was going to the fourth grade or third grade, something.

TI: So he's then assigned to Salt Lake City.

HT: Yeah. That was good.

TI: So tell me about Salt Lake City. What was it like for you?

HT: Oh, man, that was... I grew up, let's see, I grew up here from fourth grade to graduated high school, then went to two or three school over there. And went to study commercial photography, then I got a license for that, then I went into commercial art.

TI: So you were in Salt Lake City for a lot of years.

HT: Yes, fifteen years.

TI: So let's go back, though, as a kid, you're about ten years old. Tell me what Salt Lake City was like back then.

HT: Well, I was surprised there were so many Japanese in the town. We had their own Japantown over there, we had Japan Center, Japanese town section, one block long, and noodle house and all that, all my friends' parents owned the stores, so you get along great. In high school, the worst time was I guess when the war broke out, 1941. We were getting along with everybody in school, then all of a sudden, everything turned around. And all your buddies used to be buddies, they would start calling you "Jap." But not the adults, it was the kids who are bad. Then there were some kids, they'd feel sorry for us and they used to take care of us American kids. Their parents would come down and help us out and take us, drive us home and all that to avoid trouble. I found later on that they were all Mormons. I guess that's their teaching. So they... it's a beautiful city.

<Begin Segment 10>

TI: So, Terry, I want to go back to that. So you're about thirteen years old when the war started. And first, how many other Japanese and Japanese Americans were at your school?

HT: It must have been at least two dozen.

TI: So about two dozen, and was it hard for all the Japanese students?

HT: I would say so. We had to protect each other, so we used to always stay together, group, going to school together, going back from school. And of course, it wasn't, I guess it was not as bad as it really could be. It's just that your friends, kids, you know how kids are. They're mean, you know. But they got over it. About four or five years, after a while, they were back to the norm. Everybody, we got along great.

TI: But during those, those early days, it was difficult, so one thing you did was walk together as a group back and forth to school?

HT: Yeah, we had to walk together as a group, going back to school, and when we come out of school we all meet in front of the school, then you go together to protect the girls, mostly. Then the police are always there, and there used to be policemen stationed, I guess, each corner, watching, making sure nothing happens to us. And for some reason, Japanese people, we never gave police any trouble, so they were real protective of us. They used to come by, 'cause they were always, if we were together someplace from the Japantown, sitting around there, and sometimes on a Saturday night, around a dozen of us sit up there and this guy played ukulele, we sing song out there in the street. Police come by, honk the horn, wave and all that. But we didn't have any trouble. I didn't have any trouble with adult except there's maybe a couple places you couldn't go. But that went for anybody that's not a Mormon, you cannot go. [Laughs] It's pretty strict control.

TI: When this was going on, what did your father say about all this in terms of the, maybe people giving you a hard time?

HT: My father, those things never bothered him. It never did. He just, he just said he felt sorry for them for being the way they are. He was very religious, you know. [Laughs] I would have said, "Gee, we had a fight today." "Don't do that again." That was it. [Laughs] "Okay, Dad, whatever you say." But yeah, he was... of course, he came back from camp, so he wasn't... I don't know. He just kind of forgot about it. He had bitterness inside, but if he did, he didn't tell us about it. 'Cause it's too... lot of people still came by.

TI: Okay, yeah, I want to talk about your father and what happened to him, but before we do that, you also talked about how the Mormons seemed... you said maybe later on you found out about this, but how sometimes they would even drive you home from school?

HT: Yeah, and I don't know what to... see, a friend of mine, we used to take judo, we were these young kids, but so we used to go to police academy to teach 'em judo, exhibition. So police all got to know the Japanese kids. So I guess after they seen the Japanese people walking to school or something, they would pick you up and give you a ride to school. They were very protective of us. Captain Hale, I think his name was, and every time they would honk their horn, they would always wave to us. And I guess that's the way the Mormons are, I guess. They're friendly.

SF: Do you know whether the police department or the Mormons, there was any kind of formal request that they help out the Japanese or protect the Japanese? Or was it just simply that they were...

HT: Simply just, yeah, that's what they do. That's in the religion, I guess. There's no club or anything, no. It's not an organization, just a police, I guess most of the police was a Mormon, I guess. They were rather nice to us. Before, that first time is bad, back in 1941, when it first started, the war, it was, some people throw rocks at their house and breaking windows, and we had this swastika-looking manji for Buddhists, they don't use that anymore, but people, I guess, they thought it was German or something. They used to bang on the door nighttime and honk the horn out there and throw rocks. They did that for a while, but it stopped like that. Police jumped on that. That's the city's, one thing, nobody locks the door. I guess you didn't know that, but in Salt Lake that time, we never locked doors except when we leave town. [Laughs]

TI: And so it's a very kind of friendly place in many ways in terms of keeping things safe.

HT: They wouldn't let kuro-chan in, but they let us in. And then we could ride on the bus or go to the movie house. They didn't stop us. They didn't call you "Jap" or anything. In fact, some people from Topaz, I guess, they come up to the city to work or something, and Mormon people would be the sponsors.

TI: Did your father ever talk about the Mormons and what he thought about them?

HT: Oh, he liked them. At that time, the head of the Mormon temple, that's headquarters there, he used to come over to the house and have chazuke with us. So he was, he would check up on my dad once in a while, call up say, "How's everything going? Any trouble?" And let him know. And my father liked those people. He used to come, we used to have tea, and then we introduced him to chazuke and all that. [Laughs] They never had chazuke. "What the hell is that?" Oh, gee, it's funny days.

<Begin Segment 11>

TI: And right before the war, how large was the Buddhist congregation? How many people...

HT: Oh, god, there was quite a bit. I was surprised. Because, let's see. Otera was always full. In high school, graduation, there were thirty, forty Japanese graduated at one time in a grade. So you can imagine how big the population of Japanese was over there.

TI: So you're talking about hundreds of people.

HT: Oh, yeah, for sure. I got my yearbook, look at the high school book, every page there's about five or six Japanese.

SF: You mentioned that some folks from Topaz came from camp.

HT: Yeah, yeah. Topaz people, they just come to town to work. They were sponsored by the Mormons. They go down there to get them away from the bad environment. "Why don't you help us out, I need help." Or gardening or housekeeper or something, just to get away from the camp. And they used to get those people out there. So think the Japanese people that I know, they were very grateful. So that's why you still see Japanese people living there, I guess. [Laughs]

SF: How did you feel about people in the camps when you were there? Like you were in the city and you'd been there.

HT: Well, people that I met, I didn't meet too much parents, but I met a lot of kids. But they were pretty, some of 'em was pretty bad. I guess camp life really made them belligerent, so we had trouble with the kids that came out of camp. But by the same token, those kids from camp, they're real bad, but they were protective of the Japanese kids that were going to school. Hakujins come trying to pick on us, and those Japanese guys, I guess that's a good training or something in camp, they all know judo for some reason or another. God, we have a big fight, and they would always protect us. We were pansies, I guess. [Laughs] We were peaceful kind of kids. But I guess camp life made 'em tough kids, but they were from Los Angeles, too. Then after war went on for a while, by 1946, '45, we had lot of Japanese people from all over the country come to Salt Lake City, we sponsored a basketball league and bowling league and all that. And then, of course, we had some bad people come from out of town, like Exclusive 20s, they called them, the mean guys from Los Angeles, Japanese gang, they used to come to town and terrorize the whole Japanese territory in Japantown, took over the whole Japantown, people just didn't want to deal with these people. Mean. They called themselves Exclusive 20s. They were like Japanese mobsters.

TI: And how would they take control? What would they use to, to take... how would they do it? I mean, what would they do that people were afraid of?

HT: Well, they take over, they just, everyplace they go, everybody sees them, they come in the store, then they just walk out of the store. They walk down the street abreast, anybody going that way, get off the, go around. Except my brother-in-law. My brother-in-law, before the war, I guess he knew the leader of this gang, I guess. But when they saw him, when they saw my brother-in-law, [indicates moving out of the way] that felt good, you know. Big shot. He was a funny guy. He's from Simi Valley or someplace down there. His name is Pancho. Japanese guy named Pancho, can you imagine? [Laughs]

TI: So in terms of just the population of Japanese, so before the war, you said there were quite a few, hundreds of Japanese.

HT: There was a lot of 'em, yeah.

TI: And then during the war, did it increase or stay about the same?

HT: Well, I guess it was about the same. I really didn't keep track, of course, but it seemed like we gained some after, because they come out of camp and live in Salt Lake for a while before, 'cause they have no place to go. What are they going to do? They lost everything in California, their homes are gone, so they stayed in Salt Lake and recuperate, and you go to school and learned their trade, then they go to California. So there's coming, some going.

SF: During the war, did you feel thankful that you were not in camp?

HT: I wish... I wish I went to camp. I think lot of us did, 'cause we, we had, like we lost our father, lot of us, you know? They went to camp, and we had to take care of our own self. Government didn't help us. So I don't know where Mom got money to buy food, but she worked and did laundry and I helped laundry and my brother helped the laundry, make few extra bucks so we had something to eat at least. But the place to say we didn't have any problem because we lived at the Buddhist church, upstairs, the residence, so we didn't have to pay no rent or something. Not that I know of.

<Begin Segment 12>

SF: Tell us what happened to your dad.

HT: He went to, well, when the war started, he had some kind of problems with breathing, so I think he was in the hospital, this is what I heard. That he was in the hospital in an iron lung, put in an iron lung. And when the war broke out, the first thing the FBI went up there and they didn't ask anybody, they just walked up to the iron lung and opened it up and dragged him out. And they tried to stop 'em and said, "What the hell you doing?" "He's a 'Jap.'" And the FBI just grabbed him, you know, pajama-looking, then I think Frank, the administrator saw that, hakujin, and he put a stop to that. He said, "You put him back. He's a sick man." And they said, "Well, a 'Jap's' a 'Jap,' we're gonna take him away, put him in jail." So they called up FBI headquarters, I guess it was, and talked to the head of the FBI to ask what the heck is going on. And that man on the other end said, "Let me speak to the agents over there," and they told the agents, "Put him back right now. Don't touch him. Put him back, he's a sick man." So they put him back in the iron lung. And they said, "We'll come after you later." So said, "Okay, we'll let you know when he feels better." So when he came out of the house, came out of the hospital, then next day they came and took him away, and to jail they went. And we didn't know what's going on, we couldn't do anything. We were kids. They went to, he was in jail for, I guess, for three days for interrogation, then they decided to take him to some, I guess, prison camp, up in Montana, Missoula?

TI: Yeah, Missoula, Montana.

HT: Yeah, Missoula. So they decided to take him up there, so they called up and told us to, "Say goodbye to your parents, father," so we went to the police station and we said goodbye to Dad. And my mother says, "Hiroshi, this shashin, go and give to your dad." So I got the picture and I went to Dad and said, "Dad, dad," I went up there, and bam, they beat me up almost. They pushed me on the ground, said, "Don't come close." So I couldn't give him the picture at that time.

TI: This was just a photograph of the family?

HT: Yeah, just the family. Yeah, I guess they thought I was carrying a machine gun or something, I don't know. They're paranoid people, my god. They really didn't treat us right at all in that case. And I was only a kid, what the hell am I going to do? Fight the police department? So they just pushed me back and I fell down, I think, and then they just told us to, "Stay away." So he, they took him off, they didn't tell us where they're going or nothing. All we knew was he was in some kind of camp. I don't know if Mom even got a letter from him, I don't know. I don't remember those things. But he came, he was one of the first people to come out of the camp, I later found out.

<Begin Segment 13>

TI: Yeah, before we talk about coming back, so when he was taken away and sent to Missoula, let's talk about how your family survived during this time. So what did your mother do?

HT: Well, I guess we had a little bit savings. So my mother, there's a Eagle Laundry across the street, was owned by the church. So she worked at the laundry folding sheets and all that, to make some money. And I helped her with the church, too. But then every little bit of money, everything went to the food, 'cause we didn't have an income.

TI: And what happened to the church? Were there any services, religious services?

HT: Yes, we still had church, 'cause my mother's a minister. That was fortunate. The kekkonshiki she could perform, funeral, she did it, anything. She just took over Dad's job, but she didn't drive, of course.

TI: And how about the members of the church? Did they...

HT: They were supportive, very supportive.

TI: And how did they support the family?

MT: Well, they'd bring some food for us, and I guess they gave Mom some kind of allowance from the Buddhist church, the officers. Because some money, they made sure that we didn't starve. Well, there were other people in the same situation, but lot of people had their own businesses, so some people owned a grocery store, so they didn't have to worry about foods, you know. [Laughs] So they gave us food. That congregation was very nice to us. They treated us very nice. 'Cause we didn't have any, much luxury like buying our own clothes and all that, but food, we didn't have to worry about. Or lodging we didn't have to worry, 'cause... but the clothing...

TI: Do you recall any -- I'm sorry, you were going to say something?

MT: Yeah, I remember when I was going to school, my mother, she could sew. So she got all her clothes and converted it into shirts for me and pants to wear, you know, make me pants with that. And can you imagine how embarrassing it is to wear pants that you knew used to be a coat? Oh, god, I go to school and I was so embarrassed. Other kids go, "Look at that guy." She had one of the old overcoats, you know? Oh, geez. But I couldn't say nothing, you know. 'Cause she'd get upset if I said something. That thing we'd do if get them, hurt their own parents, my god. She's was going through, she was, I felt so bad.

TI: During this time, did you ever have a conversation with her about what she was thinking or feeling during this time?

MT: No. She didn't want to talk about anything. But one was, the meal was, the best meal I used to have is, used to open, my mother used to open up cans of Campbell's soup, vegetable soup, and she doesn't mix it with water, so it was real pasty, and she'd make some rice and put it... that's our dinner. Almost every day, same dinner. Oh, gee, we was kind of starving, you know. It was really hard. That's the time I wished I was in camp. At least you got fed, got a place to stay. But over here, we never knew what's gonna eat the next day. It was hard. But we survived.

<Begin Segment 14>

TI: So you said your father was one of the first ones to come out of Missoula, so this is a Department of Justice camp.

MT: Yeah.

TI: And I think in my notes it was about, like, nine months that he was in camp. About nine months?

MT: Yeah, about nine or something. It must have been about nine months, but he was the first one to come out, it looked like.

TI: So describe, what did he look like when he came out of camp?

MT: Well, to tell you the truth, I don't know. I didn't, no, I can't recall how that, you know... but to me, he was still same. We studied together, and he used to take me trips and go to Yellowstone and all that, but he never showed the inner self, what he thought about the whole thing. He's that way. He didn't like to think bad about anybody. He figured, they did what they were supposed to do, he can't blame anybody in particular.

TI: Did you notice any changes in him?

MT: No.

TI: How about his personality? Was it different?

MT: Not to my knowledge, no. If he was bitter, he sure had it hidden. He always wanted to make sure that you feel comfortable. He doesn't want to give you any problems, you know. So he was good.

TI: So when he came back, what was the reaction of the community when he came back? Did they have a welcome party for him?

MT: Oh, no, they don't do that. There's no party or something like that. He came back, everybody called up. There's lot of people that called up also, their father was still in camp. And then, in fact, some of these people were in camp for four years, as far as I heard. They went from there to different camps, you know, the whole family, I guess, eventually, or something. We never saw them. I think they went to Crystal City, maybe. It's a prison camp, war prisoners camp.

TI: So do you know why your father was released after nine months, and some of these other Buddhist ministers had to stay there for four years?

MT: Well, I think they probably figured he's a man of cloth. He's not a, he never argued back, he wasn't a, not a "no-no" person, and he probably served as a minister in the camp. So there was, I guess they treated him okay. But he looked like he lost weight, but that's about all.

TI: And so how about your family life? How did that change now that your father's back?

MT: Well, we slowly went back to normal. Same, same old. I started going to school, and we had dance parties. Everything went back to normal around 1946, '45. Everything was...

SF: When your dad came back from the Missoula, Montana, camp, what did he start doing in the community?

MT: Well, he tried to help the people in camp, but there wasn't much power. I think he went down there a few times and talked to them, and I guess he wrote, might have wrote a letter to the ministers over there in the camps, if anybody come up, they should look him up. But he helped as much as he can when they came out, to find a place to stay.

SF: So did he start going around and doing funerals and...

MT: Well, he always did that. That didn't stop. People die and people get married all the time. There's nothing seasonal about it. So he went back to the same old routine, we used to travel to Utah, Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming. That was his territory. And he was the only minister, so every year we used to, I used to drive around every year. And everyplace you go, everybody going to get married, they wait 'til he comes. Or, I don't know how they avoid dying before you can have soushiki, but it was funny how everything, every place he goes, it was either marriage or memorial service or funeral. [Laughs] Every town we go to. And every town, they got maybe five or six family of Japanese living in there, like Wyoming. My god. Why they go to Wyoming, I don't know. Like Montana, my god, you travel hundred miles to one family, and hundred miles to another family. That's his job.

TI: And was he able to do that during the war? So when the war was still going on...

MT: Yeah, he still went around.

TI: He went around. Did he visit any of the camps when he was on these trips?

MT: I really, truth to speak, I don't know.

TI: So it was more like Heart Mountain, Wyoming, or Minidoka, Idaho.

MT: I don't know. All I know is his brother was in the Minidoka, he was a minister, too. But I don't know. I never asked.

TI: Okay.

<Begin Segment 15>

TI: So earlier you talked about these long car rides, and you would help, you would drive.

MT: I would drive, a seventeen year old, I was driving. Salt Lake, we'd get a license at sixteen. And he was getting pretty old, and he doesn't know the American law that you cannot, you cannot make a right turn at a stop sign. I mean, he didn't care. He did whatever he wants. [Laughs] He was going down the street. I said, "Dad, stop." He wants to, wonders why. I said, "Dad, red means you can't go." Said, "Oh, okay." So he'd stop. And when you make a right turn, he'd never look, he'd just stick his hand out. You'd hear the cars screeching, brakes screeching, honking horns and everything. [Laughs] It was scary. God, it was scary. So I thought I'm gonna drive. So every summer, said, "Okay, Dad, here we go," and take off, run up to Idaho and all through Idaho, and went to Yellowstone, and came down Wyoming, to Kemmerer and all that, then went to, we went as far as the border on Colorado, Rock Springs. We drove four or five thousand miles.

TI: In all those drivings, you'd go through small towns and you'd go to towns and you'd eat, did you ever have problems being Japanese?

MT: No. No, we did not. No, I don't think we ever had problems. We went to gas stations and stuff, drugstores or restaurants, but we did have a lot of fun, you know. Because my father didn't know anything about reading a menu or leaving a tip, especially. He didn't know anything about tips. We'd go to a restaurant, we eat, and I'd give some money, I'd put some on the table, and we start walking out, my father, "Chotto matte," then he goes back and he'd go, take the money. He says, "You forgot this." I said, "That's a tip." See, in Japan they don't tip, I understand. So he thought it was a waste of money putting, leaving money on the table. "What's table gonna do with the money?" [Laughs] And he always thought it was the dumbest thing. He can't read, "This," the waitress comes, "This." And he ordered buttermilk one time instead of milk. It was so funny, he ordered and he goes, "Aaaah." Got sugar and goes... he put three or four tablespoons of sugar and mixed it and he goes, "Oh, it's still sour." [Laughs] I waited 'til he did that and I said, "Dad, that's buttermilk." I told him how it was made. It was supposed to taste that way. But he said, "Oishikunai." Oh, he did a lot of stuff. He was funny. He had a good sense of humor, you know. See, used to crack up. All the dumb things we do. Then that's when he used to teach me about Buddhism.

TI: Oh, on these long car rides?

MT: Yeah. He told me how to, how to live your life. What not to do, what to do, what's good, what's bad. And he used to tell me quite a bit. He would tell me about some of the ghost stories in Japan, and it's scary. He saw so many experiences in ghosts in Japan. But his main thing was, he would always tell me, he says, "Always, when someone look at you, look them into the eye. And if they make eye contact with you, always smile and say, 'Hello.'" And he said, "Ninety-nine percent of people will smile and say, 'Hello.'" He said, "Always create a good feeling." That's why I always still do that. My wife and my son think I'm stupid or crazy, you know. One day I go to bank and I'm standing in line, the line in the bank. By the time I'm leaving the bank, everybody's shaking hands, "Hey, see you later, buddy." And my son said, "Do you know those people?" I said, "No, I just met 'em." And he says, "You talk to everybody. That's embarrassing." What's embarrassing about talking to people? [Laughs] That reminds me of something else. I'm in the emporium, San Jose Emporium, and the kids were shopping, I went to emporium. And I talked to all the clerks, every one of the clerks, introduced myself. And so my daughter had come looking for me, and she wondered where I was, she was gonna look for me in the store, so she asked one of the clerks, she said, "Did you see a Japanese man, kind of gray shirt, walking around here?" She said, "Oh, you mean Terry?" And she gets the speaker and she said, "All departments, is Terry around the area?" And everybody said, "No, Terry was here a few minutes ago." So she goes, "Do you know all these people working in this place, Dad?" I said, "No, I just talk to them, get acquainted." So that's why I told you, it's an example. People are nice people generally. If you let them be nice to you, and if you get to know 'em, you'd like 'em. So I don't have any hate for anybody, no.

TI: And these were the things your father talked about on these trips?

MT: Oh, yeah. Yeah, he used to tell me, "Oh, be friends. Always help out people, handicapped." That's why I help at, with the old homes once in a while and go down there, talk to old people.

TI: But I'm curious, on these long car rides, did your father ever talk to you about being a Buddhist minister?

MT: He told me not to be one. [Laughs]

TI: Really? He told you not to be one?

MT: No. But he didn't encourage me to be one. You know, you would think he'd say, "I want you to grow up to be a minister." Never. He says, he used to tell me to, "Be what you want to be. As long as you're happy, that's all that matters."

TI: But your older brother became a minister. Was there more pressure for him because he was the older brother?

MT: Yeah, I think so. I guess my father actually wanted somebody to follow the footsteps. And he, my brother tried, and he tried an engineer, it didn't work out, medical doctor, it didn't work out. It was kind of, to me, it was kind of, he wasted money for the family, 'cause he went to all different schools that cost too much money, you know. So my father, he apologized to me. He said, "We don't have enough money to send you to school, college education." So I went to San Francisco and I worked in the newspaper over there and went to school.

TI: So your brother got lots of...

MT: Everything.

TI: All the money, all the encouragement.

MT: Yeah, encouragement.

TI: And so you had to do it on your own more.

MT: I had to do it on my own, yeah.

TI: But I'm curious, you talked about these summers, these long car rides, did he do that with your older brother, too?

MT: No.

TI: So why was that?

MT: I don't know. My brother was too lazy. He won't do it. He had too much to do. "You do it." So my brother and I never got along, unfortunately. So my father, I guess he knew how I was, always laughing, joking around with him, so I guess he wanted somebody that could talk.

TI: So how did that make you feel, that you had this special relationship with your father...

MT: Yeah, that's right. I enjoyed it.

TI: And you were, but you were the second, and your older brother didn't, but he got all the...

MT: Yeah, he got all the everything.

TI: The help and everything.

MT: But he was, for one thing, he's older, that's why he got the first choice in school, right? Maybe if it's, as far as the older one, I'm going to school, maybe it would have been the other way around. 'Cause he had so much money, the ministers don't make that much money in those days, anyhow. [Laughs] So he had enough money to send my son to school -- my brother. But when I was going to San Francisco, he felt bad, I guess, so he asked me, "How much is it gonna cost to go to school in San Francisco?" I said, that's, for room and board and everything else, I said, "Well, about fifty dollars a month." So he was able to give me fifty buck a month. That didn't pay for my room. [Laughs] That didn't pay for my school. Oh, gee, it was rough. That's when my wife came in and she helped me out.

TI: Okay, but before we go to your wife and San Francisco, we have to talk about your military service, but let's take a short break before we do that.

<Begin Segment 16>

TI: We're gonna start the second part, and before we go to your military service, there are a couple areas I want to talk about. The first one, we talked a little bit about your father as a minister, and you talked about his sermons and how he was able to talk to, to different audiences. Tell me about that.

MT: Yeah. My father, like I said, to me, he's, from what I heard... I don't know how true this is. I heard from a lot of people, but in Japan, when he was going to school, when he was going to high school, they have a country or county or something, they have some kind of IQ test. And he came in, my mother came in number one in the whole village -- not village, but the whole state as a number one scholar. And my father came as number two. So I've got two very intelligent parents. I don't know why I didn't get any of it. And my sister and I joke about it all the time, said, "Shigeru" -- that's my brother -- "Shigeru gets, he got all the brains and he didn't leave anything for us." And that's true, really, because he got straight-A-plus through high school. He got scholarship, he was an honor student, but heck, I'd be glad if I got B average. But he did get all the brains, I think. But I got something he didn't get was he didn't, he had a different personality than I have. He didn't like people. [Laughs]

TI: He was book-smart, but not really people-smart.

MT: Yeah, he wasn't people-smart. In fact, if we got in a fight or something, if I got in a fight with somebody, he'll probably help the other guy beat me up.

TI: Your brother would help?

MT: Yeah. If I would argue with the guy, he's right and I'm wrong. Oh, it's terrible. Brother, he should treat me just the opposite and protect me, you know, older brother. But I was protecting him all the time 'cause my friends all got mad at him, all didn't like him because he keep picking on me all the time. So they want to beat him up. So I said, "Don't beat him up, he's my brother." [Laughs]

TI: So why do you think your older brother picked on you so much? Was there something that...

MT: Because he and I are real different, two different kind of guys. I was nice to everybody, he's not. And I guess he resents the fact that I had more friends than he has. And activities, I went to more parties than he did. In sport, I did excel more than he did. So he was jealous in a lot of ways. One time I was playing basketball, it was for State. No, it wasn't State, that was the JACL national basketball tournament in Salt Lake they have every year. And I was playing for a team, and he was playing for the Salt Lake Bussei and I was playing for our own club, the Zephyr clubs. And I kind of made a fool out of him in basketball. And it's a game. He was gonna beat me up, you know? I guess I embarrassed him. [Laughs] I dribbled around him and he got mad. So my brother and I, we never really got along. I mean, I washed the car to go on a date, he would take the car. He said, "I'm gonna go on a date." I said, "I washed the car." He said, "I don't care." He said, "I'm the oldest one, I get to do anything I want." [Laughs] You have to excuse me.

TI: Now, what did your father tell you about that, the difficulties with your brother?

MT: I think he talked to him a lot of times about being nice to me and being nice to people. But he was hated by a lot of people, unfortunately. 'Cause he often wondered why, like, my kids now ask me, "Gee, you talk to everyone and make friends." In fact, the other day, I was going to Safeway, and I saw this old lady getting out of the car, she's having problems, so I went over to help her and we started laughing and talking. Said, "Why you do that for?" my son said. I said, "You got to help people. They're older people." He couldn't understand that. So my wife will say, "You should have been a Bonsan." [Laughs]

<Begin Segment 17>

TI: So let's go back to your father and his sermons and what you know about that.

MT: Yeah, see, he's one of the best, I think. I'm not bragging about my father, but one of the best lecturer in Buddhist, I think so. Lot of people said that. He's able to speak to children, kindergarten classes, youchen, and Sunday school, young people. He would talk to them in Japanese, they can speak English. And he's so into, in the level where kids understood him. It's amazing. And all the little kids, they don't know any Japanese, but he'd listen to 'em and they'd understand. And he's good at that. Then when he started talking to a younger group like junior high or high school, he would speak differently. I could tell by listening to his level, his language. And then when he'd talk to Issei people like doctors or lawyers or that, another level he can speak. So now the question is, like you see a samurai movie, can you understand it? But if you understand it, there are other kind of Japanese movie, you understand, right? It's because they speak a different level, you see. My father speaks at the highest level to bottom level, so when he had the lecture, he'd look at the audience and decide what level he's gonna talk, so that everybody would understand. He was a, he was a good actor, too. He was very, you know, motion and voice. He could talk like a woman and talk like a man. Like he made this Japanese movie film called Kuon no Hikari, it's about a Buddhist family, and he also made a movie about Japanese soldier, Munemura, that guy. He made... and he did all the voices. With a camera he'd have, he'd put the voice in every one of 'em. Woman's voice, man's voice, kid's voice. He was good. Just like Walt Disney, you know. One guy could talk like a woman or talk like a man. He was good at that.

TI: And he was able to do this during his sermons, too, so he was very entertaining, people enjoyed...

MT: Yeah, people, he could make people laugh, and one minute later they'd be crying. But that takes lot of good, you know. He'll be speaking, I go to all his sermons, and I was going to the Issei one, but I could see this, he'll make everybody laugh. Then the next thing I know, all the ladies are wiping their eyes. [Laughs] That's what makes it interesting. It's not boring. God, I used to enjoy it. I mean, I went to every one of his church, I had to drive him around to the services. But yeah, he was something else. In fact, the Bishop Masunaga, I can't remember his name now. He used to say he was... anytime they got special thing going on, they want him to speak, 'cause he knew how to make people relax. He was good.

TI: And when he, did he retire in Salt Lake City, then? Was that his last place?

MT: No, that's what I mean. See, that's why... he retired the Buddhist thing, then they needed a good minister in the, opening up in Annabella, Utah, so he asked him to come out of retirement. So for another two years, he came out of retirement and went to Utah and retired from there. He started a church, I guess. But he's... I hate to brag, but he was really one of the best I heard. I listen to a lot of these Issei talking, and I used to go to Bukkyokai here and there, and reverend speaking. But I don't enjoy it as much. Maybe that's my excuse for maybe not going to church. [Laughs]

TI: Well, thank you for sharing that.

<Begin Segment 18>

TI: Now I'm going to switch gears, and I wanted to go back and ask a little bit more about your experiences with the kids that came out of camp. And I was just curious if you could kind of share, I mean, what do you think they thought of you and the other kids from Salt Lake City?

MT: After a while I said to myself -- and I talked to a couple of my friends -- says, "I wonder why they are treating us like they are." They wasn't too nice at all. Well, I think it's because they went through camp life, which is a little bit different from what they used to be before. Camp life is, to me, it was, there were so many of these young people from different environment got together, and they're, I guess, they're always fighting or something. And they were jealous of the fact that we didn't have to go through that, or they don't know we went through hardship, but they didn't know that. But they figured we were, we didn't go to camp and we had a good life. That's why I guess they resented us, that's why they kind of picked on us in that fact, until they found out later on that we went through hell, too. So a couple of kids I remember used to always pick on me. They get upset because I used to be a leader of my group. I don't know. I can't forget that guy, though. [Laughs] But once in a while...

SF: Do you, do you have any ideas about where these kids came from or anything more about, were they from a particular area or something like that?

MT: I think they're mostly from San Francisco and Los Angeles, those kids were. Because I lived in San Francisco for a while. They still, those friends I have in San Francisco are entirely different from friends I had in Salt Lake City. All their thinking, everything was different. Because... but there's a territorial thing that San Francisco, Los Angeles, Japanese people, seem like they're kind of cliquish. They're all cliquish, in fact, unfortunately, lot of people say San Jose is very cliquish, too, unless you were born with them, went to grade school with them, high school, then you're friends. But if you're a stranger in town, you're not part of the clique. You'd be one lonely guy out there. I felt that way anyhow. But Salt Lake was definitely... well, what I was taught to do was when you see any stranger in town, Japanese people, make him feel welcome. Talk to him. But that's why I enjoyed Sunday school. I'd go to school, Sundays, church, we'd see some people from maybe out of camp or some strange face come in, then I'll go and talk to them right away and make them feel welcome. They don't do that here. They're welcome. Then you see them come back again. 'Cause they feel, gee, how many friends, and they come back. And unfortunately, this church over here really didn't do that until I talked to the reverend over here one day and I said, "Why don't you have some welcoming person go up to people, strange people, come and talk to them, so they come back?" He says, "Ignore them." Well, this sensei says -- I ain't going to tell you his name -- but Sensei says, "They don't come to church to socialize, they're supposed to come to church and pray." I said, "Bullshit." Oh, yeah, he and I began arguments. And I said, "You won't see me in this church again," and I never went back. Because I didn't like his thinking. You can't treat that, people.

I'll sit there, there's a dozen students from San Francisco State taking religious philosophies, they were sitting in back of me. Nobody ever came up to them and said, "Hello," nothing. And after the sermon's over, they all go home. So these people sit there going like this, and so I turned around and says, "I'm not the welcome party, but if there's anything you want to ask me, I would be glad to help you." So they asked me, "Oh, thank you." They asked me questions. So I said, "Look, I'll tell you, I'll give you a personal tour of this church. I'm not supposed to, but I will anyhow." I took 'em and I showed 'em the butsudan and I tell 'em each person, [inaudible] and everything I'd tell 'em. And so they got an education. Oh, yeah, they were real happy. And I said, "You're welcome to come back anytime you want." They said, "Oh, yeah, we will." And I talked with Sensei about this, and, "That wasn't your job." I said, "Whose job is it?" So that's why, now this new sensei is different now. He thinks like me. [Laughs]

TI: But that kind of thinking, that cliquishness, that cliquishness, you think, is part of, like, the Japanese community almost sometimes, in some of these bigger cities, that they're more...

HT: They're more... in a big town like this, there'd be more cliquish feel. But Salt Lake wasn't any, you're all friends, everybody's friends. Party, everybody's invited. But in San Francisco, we had the Gales, the Plutos, we had different groups always fighting.

SF: You mentioned some of the cliquish guys. Were there any women or girls who used to come from the camps that used to be different or did you notice them?

HT: Yeah, one especially. She's my wife. [Laughs] She went to Gila River and I talked to her about camp all the time. She told me, "I had nothing against the camp, I had a good time. I made a lot of friends, we had parties." So I don't know, I guess I would have never met her if she didn't go to camp.

SF: But there were no, like, gangs of girls that used to come into Salt Lake?

HT: No. But... oh, skipping back again, I remember a story about during the war, like in Denver, Colorado, it was pretty bad. I had a bunch of friends that one day about twelve of 'em I think went to a movie, was going home, and going through a park, and they were surrounded by maybe thirty or forty girls, gang. They came after them. The twelve guys didn't have a chance against those girls. There was one big guy, he couldn't run because so big, you know. [Laughs] They caught up with him and they beat the heck out of him and they got a razor blade and cut him from ear to ear.

TI: This was in Denver?

HT: Yeah, in Denver. And so that was in, it wasn't Japanese gang, either. So this guy went and got some reinforcement, came back, and they saw him cut ear to ear, razor. He lives in San Francisco. I see him all the time, and you could see big scar right across like this. But that kind of thing happened in Denver. Salt Lake, in Salt Lake, we didn't come to that extreme, no. If we were somewhere, they threw rock at us or something. But Denver, I guess they must have had worse time.

TI: Okay.

<Begin Segment 19>

TI: So I'm going to move on to the military, so we only have twenty more minutes. So Terry, I'm going to now jump to around 1950 when you were drafted. So can you tell me what happened in terms of being drafted at this time?

HT: Yeah, yeah. I was in San Francisco when I got the notice, I was going to school. And I got this welcome letter from Uncle Sam. [Laughs] Nice letter, too. And I went back to Salt Lake where I said my hometown was, went to recruiting station over there, went through the process, then we got on a train from Salt Lake City and they sent us to Fort Riley, Kansas.

TI: Now, before all that, though, when you first reported, did they understand that you were born in Japan?

HT: No. I thought it would make a difference, but it didn't make a difference. Everybody else was Nisei except me, I was Issei. But I don't think that mattered to them at all. I was hoping they would ask. Said, "Hey, I'm a real 'Jap.'" [Laughs] I would have told them that.

TI: But they, they just assumed that you were American?

HT: I guess, I think that's what it is. Those recruiting people, they don't know anything. They assume I was Nisei, 'cause I was, in my whole group of city friends in Salt Lake City, I was the only Issei. I was the only one that was the Issei, rest of 'em was all Niseis. So they didn't, I wish they did ask, I would like to have went to MIS.

TI: Well, so did they ever test you for Japanese language or anything like that?

HT: No. They didn't care if I could speak in Spanish or French or English, didn't matter. They look at your hands, that's all they do. And if you got a trigger, you're hired. [Laughs] We used to joke about that.

TI: So you went through training, so any interesting stories during your time in the military?

HT: Oh, yeah. During the military physical we had fun. They take your blood test, there's about fourteen of us standing there. And they stick the needle into your thing, and they get little vials to catch the blood, and they just one after another, we're standing there. And the guy next to me was bleeding like hell, and he's dripping like hell. And I said, "Hey, come back here. Look at him." They looked, "Oh, yeah, we got a bleeder over here." And they go over there and stop the... blood all over the floor. He was one of those people that bleed like crazy, you know. And his thing was filled, he goes, "Hey, it's full. What am I gonna do?" Oh god, we had so much fun in the military, god. It was a riot. This one guy, he didn't want to get drafted. And they asked him, he acted like he was drunk, he acted like he was deaf, he couldn't hear anything they said. Everything they said, said, "Huh?" "What?" So what he do to get drafted? Or what's that he can do? He can do something else. And he acted kind of stupid, you know. We had funny people in the military, especially when we went to basic training camp also. But when we went to Fort Riley, there's three Japanese, the rest of 'em was Mexicans, was drafted, Salt Lake. And Mexican people were treated pretty bad, that's what I didn't like about that.

But when we went to Fort Riley, Kansas, it's a big camp, because three camp, three big camp, it compounded into Fort Riley. That's where the OCS school is, military Officers Candidate School. After basic, I was supposed to go to Officers Candidate. We took a test, they took the first so many percent that could go to... so I was kind of happy. I tell my wife, "I'm going to go OCS." So I was all ready to go but they didn't take me. They said, "I'm sorry, we can't take you." I said, "Why not?" Says, "You're Issei." I said, "It's okay for me to go up to get shot, but I can't become an officer?" I said, what kind of... but they couldn't answer either. They didn't understand why that's, the law was that way. They said, "We can't have a Japanese officer because during the war, you might just turn around and shoot at us." I said, "Oh, okay, that explains it, thank you." [Laughs] "I understand." Geez. I thought, "Oh, man, this guy's crazy." But we had a good time in basic. I enjoy everything I do. And the basic training's the roughest time, but I laughed through the whole thing.

TI: But did you ever worry, because this was during the Korean, the Korean War. So were you worried about going into war or anything like that?

HT: No. There used to always be a joke about that. They says, "If you see a Buddha with your name on it, then you'd better duck." [Laughs] If you get worried all the time, it will happen. Don't worry about it. If you get shot, you get shot. Enjoy as much as you can. Why worry about it? What can you do about it, right? Of course, if they shoot at you, you shoot back. I got shot, but it doesn't hurt.

<Begin Segment 20>

TI: Any other stories about your military service --

HT: I had a good time.

TI: -- because you were... but you served in, you went to Tokyo and Korea?

HT: Yeah, I went there, let's see. From basic training camp I went to Maryland to take my training and school, went to school, instrument repairman's school. I went repaired binoculars, telescope, cameras. Then they sent me over to Washington, got on a ship, went to Adak, Alaska, we stayed there one day, froze our butts off. Twenty-four, twenty-five below zero, I remember. It was cold. They said, a guy said it's so cold that you could get a cup of water, throw it up in the air and it would turn to ice before it hits the ground.

So then we went to Tokyo, to Camp Drake over there, and we went through our final exercise. We had to shoot and make sure everything's okay. And then from there, we went to Pusan, on a ship we went to Pusan, and you could smell the Pusan town about one mile, ten miles away. The whole atmosphere stunk with the dead bodies, you know. And then when we got there, we could see bodies floating in the water. And it was, we went to camp, and we slept in a tent over there. And then, next day, we got on a troop train. This is what I hate about Red Cross. That's the only time I started hating people. We get on the train, and we could, we stood outside the train, all in a row, taking a break, then a cart came by with coffee and doughnuts. And I said, "Oh, great," it was kind of a cold day. And everybody got a cup of coffee and got a doughnut, you know, and we're laughing about it. Then this cart went down the road, it turned around and came back, and going like this. And I said, "What's that?" And they said, "Well, you pay, you got a cup of coffee and a doughnut, you owe us so much money." I said, "This is the Red Cross and we have to pay?" Oh, yeah, we have to pay. So I looked at my friend and looked right down the line, everybody looked at you and then we all did the same thing. [Pantomimes dropping something] Can you imagine? We don't carry money on the front lines. What're we gonna pay with?

Then when we get on this troop train, that's something else again. We slept in what you call cattle cars, wood bunkers we sleep on. And they had one or two military police on the front, each side, and we had our weapon and everything else, but did you know that we didn't have one bullet between us, live ammo? And we're going through Korea, and I says, "What happens if enemy attack?" He said, "Don't worry about it. We got MPs." [Laughs] With pistols. Great.

TI: And so you just have to kind of just laugh about it, I guess.

HT: Yeah. I said, "This is crazy." If we get attacked, we can't, we got a gun, no ammo. We're gonna go, "Bang, bang, bang," and scare the hell out of 'em? [Laughs]

TI: That doesn't make sense.

HT: Oh, that was terrible, you know. Then the first place we went was (Replacement) Depot, so this one guy and I was, went through school and we were always in the same group, just he and I. And we had to sleep on the sand dune out there, and that was nothing but fleas on that place. God, you look and there's fleas all over. And we got bit. Oh my god, it was terrible, sleep on the sand. Then that's the first time I got to shoot my rifle. There was, someone said, "We need two volunteers," so I said, oh, nothing else to do, we went up there and there's a big, like a dish there. He says, "Kill that dog." I said, "I ain't going to kill no dog." I didn't come there to kill dogs. He said, "He has rabies, we have to put him away." I said, "Okay," so we start shooting at the dog. And dog start crawling up, and we keep shooting it. We must have shot about fifty rounds in the dog, the dog was still climbing. And I said, and the captain came back and said, "You could stop shooting. It's been dead for the last ten minutes." I said, "It's still moving." He said, "That's the rigor mortis." Dog was still moving, it was dead. And I said, "What they gonna do with that?" They said, "Just watch." And I watched, and a bunch of Korean people were watching the whole thing. One guy said, "They want the dog." They went and got the dog, and they took the dog away. So I said, "Hey, Captain, what they going to do with the dog?" "That's what they eat. These people eat dogs." I said, "But the dog's got rabies." They said, "They don't care, they're hungry." Isn't that something? Sad, man. Oh, I felt so bad after that. I wanted to get out of the army. And all that thing happened. And that was just the start of it, but seeing something bad about war.

When we finally got stationed in Seoul, we had, I went there, about forty of us, we went to that company. I was the only Oriental there, and they assigned us to different places. And one day the captain was watching me, I was talking to these Koreans. So he says, "You could speak Korean?" I said, "No." He said, "I heard you speaking to them." I said, "I'm speaking Japanese. These are people, every one could understand Japanese." And he smiled, he said, "I got a job for you." And he came and he says, "See that detachment of the Korean army there?" I said, "Yeah." "You're in command." I said, "Oh, thanks." And he said, "See that, about three or four hundred laborers over there? You're their boss."

TI: Because of your Japanese language ability, all of a sudden you're...

HT: Yeah. So I didn't have to, so I didn't go there to do what was trained to do. [Laughs] I had a soft job. They gave me my own office, my own secretary, everything. Soft job, geez. I felt guilty about that job. But of course I still had to go to front lines. These Korean people, they saw me and they saw me coming up, they're scared. They were sitting there looking at me. And they always squat. They always squat, those people. And I said something, and they all stood up like this, looking at me. I said, "What's wrong with these people?" So I asked one guy, I talked to him, I said, "Do shita no?" And they say, "Yes, they think you're a Japanese soldier." I said, "I am a Japanese soldier. But I'm a Japanese soldier from America, not Japan." And they just, whew, they got relaxed.

TI: So they were so afraid of the Japanese soldiers...

HT: God, yes, they were afraid of Japanese soldiers. They were treated pretty bad. Oh, that's, I told 'em, "I'm American Japanese, don't worry about it. My door is open all the time, you can come talk to me anytime you want." [Laughs] So yeah, that's how I got started with those soldiers over there. We had a good time, I took 'em to front lines a lot of times, and I lost all the soldiers there. But it was...

<Begin Segment 21>

TI: So, Terry, we're starting to run out of time here, so I want to get to how you got your citizenship.

HT: Oh, I'll tell you and I'll go home. [Laughs]

TI: No, that's okay. So when, so this is kind of at the end of your military service. Can you tell me the story of how you got your citizenship?

HT: Yeah, one thing I want to tell you, when I was in the military in Korea, I talked to the chaplain one day, I said, I told him that I'm an alien. I still have to go back to the States and go to school and become a citizen. He said, oh, he was surprised. And he said, "We'll take care of that." He gave me letters from big shots, all the captains and generals, he got all the letters recommending me to get immediate citizenship, and what a nice job I did. [Laughs] Letters. And he says, "Take this letter, go to the immigration office when you go back into San Francisco, take it to an immigration officer, show it to them." So I said, "Okay." I got discharged, and I went to San Francisco immigration office, and I got a stack of letters, I said, "I want to apply for citizenship, and I want a grant to become a citizen." He said, "Hey, you were in the military?" I said, "Yes." Letters, they're all nice, they're from the big shots. Then he says, this guy looked at me and says, "Oh, you were in Korea?" And I said, "Yeah, I'm a real 'Jap,' you know?" [Laughs] He laughed. But he says, "Okay, tell you what." He got one of the bosses over there, big shot came downstairs, he was talking to me for a minute, they says, "Come here, I want to give you automatic citizenship, but you still have to take a test." I said, "Okay, if it's not too bad, I'll take a test." He said, "Okay, raise your right hand." Then he asked me three questions, that's all he asked me to answer, three questions. Says, I think the first one was, "What was the color of the American flag?" Yeah.

TI: So you said, "Red, white and blue."

HT: I said, "God, I don't know. Was it white, blue, red?" [Laughs] And then he asked me, "Who is the President of the United States?" And I said, "God, it can't be Washington, Lincoln." [Laughs] Well, I finally got the right answer, then he says, "Last question. What is the," I think he asked me, "what is the national song, American?" That's the question I think it was. So I told him it's the Star Spangled Banner. Then he says, "You're sworn in." I became a citizen. Meanwhile, they were typing all my paperwork and they gave me citizenship right there, pow. And that guy was a big shot, said, "Welcome to America." [Laughs] I said, "If I'm an American... I've been American, I mean." I said, "Thank you." And so I was so happy, you know. That's the best gift I ever got from the government besides "We Want You" letter I got the first time. [Laughs] If I'd known, if I thought of MIS, I would have asked him, I would have asked about it. But I didn't, it didn't dawn on me to ask. All my military coming, I wish they did.

TI: That's a good story. The museum's gonna open up, so we're gonna have to end the interview now. So Terry, thank you so much for doing this.

HT: Oh, that was fun. It gave me a chance to recall a lot of stuff that I did. I had a good life.

TI: Okay, well, thank you so much.

HT: Thank you very much, appreciate it.