<Begin Segment 11>

TI: And right before the war, how large was the Buddhist congregation? How many people...

HT: Oh, god, there was quite a bit. I was surprised. Because, let's see. Otera was always full. In high school, graduation, there were thirty, forty Japanese graduated at one time in a grade. So you can imagine how big the population of Japanese was over there.

TI: So you're talking about hundreds of people.

HT: Oh, yeah, for sure. I got my yearbook, look at the high school book, every page there's about five or six Japanese.

SF: You mentioned that some folks from Topaz came from camp.

HT: Yeah, yeah. Topaz people, they just come to town to work. They were sponsored by the Mormons. They go down there to get them away from the bad environment. "Why don't you help us out, I need help." Or gardening or housekeeper or something, just to get away from the camp. And they used to get those people out there. So think the Japanese people that I know, they were very grateful. So that's why you still see Japanese people living there, I guess. [Laughs]

SF: How did you feel about people in the camps when you were there? Like you were in the city and you'd been there.

HT: Well, people that I met, I didn't meet too much parents, but I met a lot of kids. But they were pretty, some of 'em was pretty bad. I guess camp life really made them belligerent, so we had trouble with the kids that came out of camp. But by the same token, those kids from camp, they're real bad, but they were protective of the Japanese kids that were going to school. Hakujins come trying to pick on us, and those Japanese guys, I guess that's a good training or something in camp, they all know judo for some reason or another. God, we have a big fight, and they would always protect us. We were pansies, I guess. [Laughs] We were peaceful kind of kids. But I guess camp life made 'em tough kids, but they were from Los Angeles, too. Then after war went on for a while, by 1946, '45, we had lot of Japanese people from all over the country come to Salt Lake City, we sponsored a basketball league and bowling league and all that. And then, of course, we had some bad people come from out of town, like Exclusive 20s, they called them, the mean guys from Los Angeles, Japanese gang, they used to come to town and terrorize the whole Japanese territory in Japantown, took over the whole Japantown, people just didn't want to deal with these people. Mean. They called themselves Exclusive 20s. They were like Japanese mobsters.

TI: And how would they take control? What would they use to, to take... how would they do it? I mean, what would they do that people were afraid of?

HT: Well, they take over, they just, everyplace they go, everybody sees them, they come in the store, then they just walk out of the store. They walk down the street abreast, anybody going that way, get off the, go around. Except my brother-in-law. My brother-in-law, before the war, I guess he knew the leader of this gang, I guess. But when they saw him, when they saw my brother-in-law, [indicates moving out of the way] that felt good, you know. Big shot. He was a funny guy. He's from Simi Valley or someplace down there. His name is Pancho. Japanese guy named Pancho, can you imagine? [Laughs]

TI: So in terms of just the population of Japanese, so before the war, you said there were quite a few, hundreds of Japanese.

HT: There was a lot of 'em, yeah.

TI: And then during the war, did it increase or stay about the same?

HT: Well, I guess it was about the same. I really didn't keep track, of course, but it seemed like we gained some after, because they come out of camp and live in Salt Lake for a while before, 'cause they have no place to go. What are they going to do? They lost everything in California, their homes are gone, so they stayed in Salt Lake and recuperate, and you go to school and learned their trade, then they go to California. So there's coming, some going.

SF: During the war, did you feel thankful that you were not in camp?

HT: I wish... I wish I went to camp. I think lot of us did, 'cause we, we had, like we lost our father, lot of us, you know? They went to camp, and we had to take care of our own self. Government didn't help us. So I don't know where Mom got money to buy food, but she worked and did laundry and I helped laundry and my brother helped the laundry, make few extra bucks so we had something to eat at least. But the place to say we didn't have any problem because we lived at the Buddhist church, upstairs, the residence, so we didn't have to pay no rent or something. Not that I know of.

<End Segment 11> - Copyright © 2010 Densho. All Rights Reserved.