<Begin Segment 12>

FA: The second meeting you held, also in Noguchi's studio...

JO: Yeah.

FA: There were a lot of... set the scene for me, just real quickly, in the studio. What was it like?

JO: Well, for one thing, before the meeting, in midweek I received a report that several of the members of that group was holding, walking down Buchanan, seen walking down Buchanan Street and heading for the YMCA to hold a meeting. And I immediately figured that there would be some monkey business going on. [Laughs] Otherwise there was no purpose for this ad hoc meeting. So I expected there'd be trouble at that meeting, and when I got there, it so happened that I was the last one there. And that meeting was held actually at my suggestion again because the first one I asked them to postpone because it was not representative, you know. There was only a small group, and this group was a large group. So large that everybody was sitting on the floor cross-legged, and half of, half of that group you couldn't distinguish who were there because the lights were low. And suddenly somebody said to me, "Jimmie, here's a chair for you." And there were, I saw them passing that chair toward me hand over hand. And while I was watching that, why, Larry Tajiri rapped for order. And then suddenly I heard him say that he makes a motion for my expulsion. And from the right there was a second. And I turned around and looked where the sound came from and looked straight at the leader of the Nisei Democrats of Oakland.

[Interruption]

FA: Bay Region Council for Unity, Isamu Noguchi's workshop. Once you, once you got the floor, what did you tell the group?

JO: Well, for one thing, I did tell them that they should stand up and fight for their rights. If they're unwilling to fight for their rights, they didn't deserve it.

FA: And what kind of reaction did you get?

JO: I didn't get any reaction. In fact, I never got any reaction to anything I said. In other words, everybody kept quiet. They listened, they kept quiet.

FA: What did Karl Yoneda keep saying?

JO: Oh, Karl Yoneda, he kept interrupting my speech three times. Each time he'd say, "When is Mike Masaoka going to arrive?" And we didn't know that Mike was going to arrive.

FA: What happened when he did arrive?

JO: He rushed in like he was the big cheese and took a position right in front of me, about 18 inches apart. I could, I could see him, as he talked I could see his body trembling. And I, and instantly in my mind I'm looking right at his back and I said, "This fellow's scared stiff." [Laughs] He had just come from central California where these people were shooting into houses you know. Cause the hakujins were firing into Nisei homes. And then couple, a old age couple in Imperial Valley were slain in, while sleeping.

FA: Jimmie, doesn't that justify the positions that Mike took and the JACL, that we had no choice but to cooperate?

JO: No, I don't think so. If you look back on the record, it will indicate that these were sporadic incidents. It was not a common thing. And, and so ruled by the attorney general that there was no mass movement toward Japanese Americans. These were individuals doing these things sporadically.

FA: What did Mike, after he stood in front of you shaking, what did he tell the group?

JO: He says we ought to get out of the area. And when I questioned that, why, he turned around and asked me, he says, "Who would want to stay, stay here under that consideration?" And I said I would. I didn't say anymore.

FA: Why didn't anyone else in this room, who was non-JACL, why didn't, didn't they want to stay, too? No one wanted to go.

JO: Well, I think the Japanese Americans, well, the Nisei were sort of transfixed with fear. And I think to them it seems like the only escape. With myself, I didn't generate in that climate because I wasn't that close to the community itself. You see, I was more or less independent and I worked for a Caucasian firm and my contacts were all mostly Caucasians. I bought from Italians and white people, and very few Japanese.

FA: That's how the Nisei felt, transfixed with fear?

JO: Yes, I would say that they were.

FA: What was the reaction of Issei?

JO: The Issei had very little choice because they weren't citizens of the United States. And I'm sure that they felt that they had to, well, to cooperate with the government or otherwise their position was very unstable.

<End Segment 12> - Copyright © 1990, 2005 Frank Abe and Densho. All Rights Reserved.