<Begin Segment 7>

FA: How, how do you reconcile the idea that the JACL is meant to fight for civil rights when in, during the war, Mike Masaoka led the JACL into a program of "surrendering our rights, our civil rights for the duration in order that we may win popular acceptance for our children after the war"? How --

FH: How do I reconcile that?

FA: Yeah.

FH: I think it was the real practical thing to do. You talk about Mike Masaoka. There were many times that I disagreed with Mike Masaoka and what he did, but I think that he was one person who did more for our Japanese American group than any other one person. I really believe that. And at times, I've been in open conflict with him, but at the end I have to say that he was a good man, a great man, and we were very lucky to have him.

FA: That's... I want to ask you about Mike later, but the question still is, Fred, how do you reconcile the idea that if the JACL is to stand for Nikkei/Nisei civil rights, how do you also say, acknowledge that the JACL in 1942, the program was to "surrender our civil rights for the duration in order that we may win popular acceptance for ourselves, our Issei parents, and for our children after the war"?

FH: I reconcile that in saying that it was the only thing we could do. You know, in time of war there's lots of things that are not subject to civil rights. The civil rights of many, many groups of people are absolutely ignored during wartime. War, war brings a special set of conditions.

FC: In the United States?

FH: Yeah.

[Interruption]

FH: How old were you in 1942?

FA: I was, I was not born yet.

[Interruption]

FH: Then you know nothing about the conditions at that time. You know nothing about the discrimination at that time. You don't know the fears that we as adults -- thirty-four years old, three kids, mother, father -- faced at that time. You don't know the pressures that were on us. You speak from an angle of way... with the advantage of hindsight and opinions that are yours -- it's okay. But you don't know what the conditions were at that time. You don't know. And I don't think you can judge without knowing.

FA: What were the conditions? Tell me.

FH: The conditions were the pressures against us as a group. Because of the war.

FA: Enlighten me.

FH: What do you mean, enlighten you? I have a friend in Selma, he said the editor of their newspaper, Selma Enterprise, was very much pro-Japanese American. But when the war came, he told George, "You better get out because you can't tell what the public's going to do." You know what I mean? You have friends who are no longer your friends. I was going to... when I went to Fresno State University, I had a professor who -- history, I think it was. Very close to me. I read for some of his classes, I made good grades. And, but when 1942 came, he didn't say a word in our support. Not one word. And from then on, he was not my friend. We had another one that -- Dr. Hubert Philips, married Carolyn Baker, Dean of Women, who I knew very little. Yet they came out full blast for our support. But there were very few, very few like that. Most of the so-called friends, they just turned their faces, they didn't know us. That's what war brings. You have to realize the war conditions are different. In times of war, things happen, maybe you don't want them to happen but you let it happen because you think it's best in the long run.

FA: You say that civil rights, you can't entertain, cling to the idea of fighting for your civil rights during times of war. Does that strike you as a shame?

FH: Is what?

FA: Does that strike you as a shame?

FH: No. It was practical. I bet you if you go back in history, you'll find many, many cases where civil rights were ignored because of war. What about the Holocaust in Germany? Did they worry about the civil rights of the Jewish people?

FA: No. But today, people say that the Jewish resistance were the real heroes of the Holocaust, and that the Jewish leaders who collaborated with the Nazis were traitors. There are some today who say the resisters are the heroes of Japanese America, and that the JACL were collaborators.

FH: Well, you and I differ there, Frank. Because I don't think -- you just can't realize the conditions at that time. You just can't realize unless you were there personally. You can't realize.

FA: And again, I don't have an opinion -- well, I do have an opinion. But it's not me saying that, Mr. Hirasuna. It's others, Nisei, that we interviewed, who say, "The JACL sold us out in World War II. They didn't stand up and fight for our rights."

FH: All right, you... speak to some of the others, see what they say.

FA: That's why I, that's why --

FH: That few that you spoke to don't necessarily represent the group.

FA: That's why I'm coming to you.

FH: All right.

FA: And asking you to react to that statement.

FH: That's what I'm saying. What you hear is from a few.

FA: Did the JACL sell out Japanese America in World War II?

FH: No.

<End Segment 7> - Copyright © 1998, 2005 Frank Abe and Densho. All Rights Reserved.