<Begin Segment 4>

FA: Well, we'll ask the questions for this interview, and you could interview us later if you'd like. Why, why was it necessary for the JACL to go out of its way, during the war, to label the draft resisters as "disloyal"?

FH: Because, in a way, they were. Because if -- as I said -- if JACL told everybody, "We support the Heart Mountain draft resisters, we urge everybody not to get into the military service," what would have happened? What would have happened? I asked the professor in a Midwestern university the same question: what if the Japanese Americans had not cooperated with the American war effort against Japan? He said -- he's the one that said, "They would take the whole Japanese American group and deport them."

FC: And there's no evidence, not one shred of evidence to support him.

FH: That you haven't seen.

FC: Not one shred of evidence.

FH: What evidence do you have for your statements?

FC: The evidence I have is that they were in concentration camps, you begin a petition for the right to redress of constitutional wrong by violating a law. They chose to violate the draft law to take the camps to court.

FH: You, you advise resisting evacuation.

FC: On constitutional grounds.

FH: Oh, on constitutional grounds. But I say that it wasn't practical at that time. And I say again to you, Frank, you talk about Japanese Americans and JACL not defending the constitutional rights of Japanese. What did the Chinese American group do? Why don't you ever mention that? They did not come to the support of the Japanese American constitutional rights. They segregated themselves, "I am not a..." "I am a Chinese American." They weren't worried about our constitutional rights. But you were Chinese American, you are. Why aren't you critical of the Chinese American group?

FC: Have you read everything I've written?

FH: No.

FC: Then you can't say -- then you don't know.

FH: Well, I'll bet you didn't. Well, at UCLA, why didn't you mention that?

FC: Because that's not part of the story. In the same way, in the same way that Roger Daniels, you could put the same question: "Why are you, Roger Daniels, critical of the JACL?" And he is, the same way that we are, because he's coming around to "our side."

FH: I know that only from your statement.

FA: Okay, why don't you just take a breather, Frank. [Laughs]

<End Segment 4> - Copyright © 1998, 2005 Frank Abe and Densho. All Rights Reserved.