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FC: What is the difference, or is there a difference between the JACL's vision of the issues facing Japanese America at World War II and Jimmie's?

AH: Well, yeah, I think the differences are -- and I hate to be so heavy-handed in it -- but I think the JACL was acting to a large degree under a cloud of false consciousness and I think that Jimmie didn't have those kinds of pressures. Because he was so marginalized, etcetera, he was, you know, outside of the, of the network and as a result, could go his own way. And his own way was more authentic in that he could take the readings from what he was seeing directly rather than to try to take his readings so that they're satisfying somebody else so that you get considerations after the war.

FC: In the issues being raised at the time of the war, both the issues of civil rights, Japanese American civil rights and proof of loyalty, demonstrating loyalty to America, seem to be issues everyone felt were current, or threatened Japanese American security. Could you tell who chose what issue and how they pursued them?

AH: Uh-huh. I think that Jimmie could see through the brittleness of the concept of loyalty as it was being marketed at the time, and I think he focused his attention more on civil rights and civil liberties. I think that the JACL focused more of their attention on loyalty and made that, the way they defined it, a litmus paper test as to who was loyal and who was disloyal. If you protested the evacuation itself, you had questionable loyalty. If you protested the set of arrangements and actions that prevailed in the camps, you could be construed as disloyal. If you didn't go into the military service readily, you were disloyal. And I think that same state of mind persisted after the war for half a century. It's still there. I mean, there are still people that are there -- yesterday in the session that we had on who writes Japanese American history, an older Nisei raised his hand and said, "I'm a little concerned about using that term 'concentration camp.'" So, I mean, you thought that that discussion within the community was well over and here it was sort of lurking its ugly head again.

<End Segment 5> - Copyright © 1998, 2005 Frank Abe and Densho. All Rights Reserved.