Densho Digital Archive - Clifford Uyeda Interview (denshovh-uclifford-01-0017)

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FC: You said several things that the JACL would strongly disagree with about their behavior and about their stances. You talked a little about Michi's research. Have you seen proof that you would regard as objective proof to support the characterization of the JACL's behavior toward the resisters and their cooperation with the government? Have you seen documents with people's signatures on them? Have you seen that kind of...

CU: You mean proof of...

FC: Proof of informing.

CU: Oh, only thing that I, I saw was, part of what I saw from Deborah Lim's report, too. And, of course, Deborah Lim had the access to all JACL files, and also to any other books that's been written on, about, and there, there were some statements such as, especially the JACL, JACLers coming out and saying that, "We have now become informers," that statement. And also the statement that the JACL chapters were encouraged to turn in the names of the Kibei Niseis, because they thought that they were not as loyal to the United States. And also, the statements that they want the Issei and the Nisei to be treated differently in camp, because after all, Isseis are not citizens, that type of statements. I think I read that. Now, that is, to me that was, again, a big surprise. And the biggest surprise of all, I think I read in Deborah Lim's report was a statement that JACL suggested to branding all the internees with numbers.

FC: Branding of the Issei and the Kibei?

CU: Well, mostly Issei and Kibei.

FC: They would be policed or essentially, could keep track of them...

CU: Even the, yeah, and even the government thought that this was an extreme, they could not accept it. And here, yet, the JACL was willing to suggest such a procedure. I wonder if they ever got the idea from the, the Holocaust victims that were branded. If they, if that was so, it's just amazing that JACL would take the position, take the reason some of the things that were done in, to the Holocaust victims and try to translate that, transpose that into the camp over here. And yet, not, even when the government would oppose it, the JACL would even suggest such a thing is almost unthinkable. I think that proves the mentality of the JACL at the time, that they, they wanted to be so cooperative to the government, that cooperation meant completely devastating your own people. That didn't matter, because, "if it was to support the government, we would do anything." I think that mentality did exist.

FC: Why this hostility toward the Issei and the Kibei?

CU: Well, Kibei is, Kibei means returnees to America, that means people who, Nisei who were born in the United States but were sent to Japan for part of their education in Japan, so therefore they got some Japanese education. And yet, when you think about the MIS people, the stars of the MIS were all Kibeis, because after all, the Nisei were very poor in Japanese, as many army persons said, the Japanese that the Nisei spoke were what they called "kitchen Japanese." It's not, it's not the well-rounded Japanese that they could speak. And most of the Nisei could not read or write. As you know, in the summer of 1941, they did have a survey among the Japanese who were already, Nisei who were already in the army. Possibly less than three percent who had, were considered proficent in Japanese. Rest of them were not acceptable. Pardon?

FC: Why the JACL hostility to the Kibei?

CU: Well, they looked upon Kibei, just like the Americans looked, American government looked upon the Kibei, just because they had education in Japan, they thought that they would be more Japanese than American, therefore we can't trust them, that was the attitude. And I think we, the JACL picked up on that and just went along with it.