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FC: Where were you and what year did you join the JACL?

CU: I joined the JACL, I think it was in, either in the latter part of 1950s or early 1960s when the JACL started the, what is called the Issei History Project. That's when I became interested.

FC: What, what kind of group was the JACL? What was your impression of what the JACL did?

CU: I really didn't know too much about JACL because I, I was living mostly in the Midwest and out East, and I came to California for the first time in 1953, so I did not know anything about JACL. In fact, the people in this area asked me to join JACL and I didn't know what it was all about. For a long time I said no, primarily because I didn't know anything about it, and also because in back of my mind was something very disturbing, and that was I felt that the JACL during wartime did not act as a representative of the Japanese American community to the government, but instead was more an agent of the government in the Japanese American community. That's how I looked at JACL. And for that reason I wasn't that anxious to join JACL.

FC: Are you saying that they were acting as an agent of the government and not representing Japanese American Nikkeis? Are you saying that they -- and I might be putting words in your mouth -- that they did not defend Japanese American civil rights?

HH: Well, JACL has never had civil rights as their initial goal, I don't think so. I think the JACL, the way I understood was that it was formed for the welfare of the Japanese American citizens and that, that only. I don't think they were civil rights-oriented, not until much, much later, into the '60s, I think.

FC: The issues that confronted Japanese American citizens were citizens' rights and civil rights.

CU: Oh, yes it was, right. But what disturbed me was that I felt that the JACL was so anxious to satisfy the majority or the government that they would do anything, say anything just so the government would pat them on the back. And they wanted to be the representative of the government within the Japanese American community, that is, when the government issued any orders or requests, the JACL would immediately tell the, its people to follow the order in that way, but they never questioned the government. Maybe there was, I'm sure there were a lot of people who questioned some of the orders that the government made, but the idea was not to oppose it, to go along with the government because the JACL went along with it. And that attitude somehow did not quite satisfy me as an organization that should represent us, and for that reason I wasn't that anxious to join JACL.

FC: So when you did join, you joined, what at the JACL changed?

CU: Well, I really, I think the JACL has done some positive things for the Japanese Americans, in that the Japanese Americans were pretty well-organized and they had a voice, and also because when I came to San Francisco, I started to get to know many more Chinese Americans. And to my surprise, they were saying, "No, the Japanese Americans are pretty well-organized. They have a JACL, and at least they have a voice to the government, within the government." But he said, "We really don't have anybody speaking for us in the government, but the Japanese Americans do." That sort of made me think that, well, maybe they do some positive things for the Japanese Americans. But again, my real interest, as I said, was because the JACL started the Issei History Project, that's when I became interested. Because it was primarily to interview the Isseis to get their history documented.

FC: What is an Issei?

CU: The immigrant Japanese who came from Japan to the United States.

FC: Give us a couple of lines explaining what Issei, Nisei, and Sansei are.

CU: Well, Issei were the immigrant Japanese, Issei means "first generation." But it's very interesting because the Japanese consider the, when they say "Issei," well, the first generation, they mean the immigrant generation, which were not the first-generation Americans. The second generation, Nisei, which we are, are, are the first, really, generation Americans. So there is some confusion when the outsiders hear about it.

FC: Sansei.

CU: And Sansei are the children of Niseis, so they are the second, really, the second generation Americans of Japanese ancestry, although they're called the third generation because they include the immigrant Japanese as the first generation.

<End Segment 1> - Copyright © 1998, 2005 Frank Abe and Densho. All Rights Reserved.