<Begin Segment 4>

FC: I seem, I remember a series of articles in the Denver Post about Heart Mountain, fresh fruit, fresh meat...

KK: Meat?

FC: ... fresh vegetables being given to the, food that was being denied boys overseas --

KK: What meat? [Laughs]

FC: -- was being lavished upon the people of Heart Mountain. Was the local press, did they join that hue and cry?

KK: Well, the Cody newspaper was quite hostile and there were signs in Cody windows that said "we didn't want Japanese trade" and that type of thing but we ignored that. But, you know, you have to remember that when you have ten thousand... was it more than thousand?

PT: Ten thousand.

KK: People in Heart Mountain, we were like the third largest city in Wyoming all of a sudden, and it does make an impression and the government did build a nice high school building which probably was better than nine-tenths of the other high schools in Wyoming. [Laughs] But meat? I don't think I ever saw meat.

PT: Well, that was attributed to a politician -- I forget which state he represented -- but the camp administration invited him to come out and see what we had, but of course he didn't come and that was not true.

FC: What did you have? What was the food like?

PT: Rutabagas. I remember rutabagas. [Laughs]

KK: Rutabagas and apple butter. I still don't eat apple butter because I remember it from camp. We didn't have any other kind of jam but apple butter type.

PT: Very quickly, though, the Issei farmers, who had been farmers before, started an agricultural growing there and lots of fresh vegetables, and actually started growing some animals, too, raising some animals, pigs, I believe.

KK: So they grew enough and more, they had enough for the camp and more, so they shipped to other camps, uh-huh.

FC: Good. So there was no fear of white vigilantes mounting their pickup trucks or their horses or whatever it is, riding out to...

KK: No, I think everyone was too busy. [Laughs] Too much to do to be doing that sort of thing.

Male voice: Was there any attempt to move resisters into one unit than non-resisters? I mean, did JACL try keep its people together?

PT: Not in Heart Mountain. There was a general overall attempt to move all that the WRA thought were troublemakers and resisters to one particular camp, but within Heart Mountain itself there was, nothing was done at that level at that time. After all, what they did was to arrest the ringleaders and put 'em on trial in Cheyenne, Wyoming.

KK: Those who answered "no-no" to the loyalty question were then moved to Tule Lake.

FC: You've maintained, you've established friendships with some of the, with some of the white members of the community out in Powell and Cody, and maintained these friendships. Why?

PT: Well, that's a very interesting question, but my answer to that is: fifty years in the Christian tradition is also the jubilee year where debts are forgiven and you move on. But you can't forgive debts until you deal with the problems that are there. Because you must have justice, to reconcile groups there must be justice. And that's why the resisters of conscience are conscience to the Japanese American community and the JACL, 'cause that issue has not been resolved. But I must tell you that I admire the folks of Powell and Cody because it was local citizens who decided that Heart Mountain ought to be recognized, and a group in a local nonprofit group set up all the markers and everything you see there, headed by the Blackburns. Then after the 1990 Wyoming Centennial, out of the Centennial a decision was made to put together an interpretive educational facility to Heart Mountain, all this done by local Wyoming citizens who had an interest in their own history so that they might learn from what happened there fifty years ago. And so they've invited us in to be part of that history. And I believe that the time is now that we might not only memorialize but that we move beyond being victims to do something positive and educational not only to free our souls, but for the benefit of our children and the larger population.

KK: Very well put.

<End Segment 4> - Copyright © 1995, 2005 Frank Abe and Densho. All Rights Reserved.