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MN: As someone who grew up in Kahului, how, in terms of identity, what did it mean to be like a town person versus a camp person? What made you a town person, what made someone a camp person?

KM: A camp person, because basically they were tied in with the stevedoring, as the family, the parents were connected as stevedoring or as the trucking industry of Kahului, which gradually grew bigger and bigger. In the beginning, it was railroad. The railroad and then you had stevedoring, which was the bulk of them, and you had so-called townspeople who were connected with the retailing store aspect. You have barbershops, you have a jewelry shop, you had a grocery store, you had a garage. We had a couple of garages. Kahului Kimizuka Garage and Standard Garage, I think, were the two main service stations in Kahului. As compared to those whose livelihood depending on being, working for the railroad, either as trucking railroad or stevedoring, and most of the people who were connected with stevedoring lived in the camps.

MN: You know, like you mentioned Mr. Toda, Robert Toda, as a pharmacist. In those days, were there Japanese professionals, not store owners or merchants, but were there Japanese in, like, the professions?

KM: The what?

MN: Were there Japanese in the professions in those days, like doctors?

KM: Well, I'm trying to recall who was the first doctor or physician in Maui of non-Caucasian background. Because the doctor, like my family doctor, was taking, we used to go to the Puunene plantation hospital doctor. Until... I'm trying to recall, who was the first doctor. I think Dr. Izumi was the first, and he's second generation. I think Homer Izumi, if you remember, was one of Dr., but his brother and Homer, I think, started doctoring in Maui.

MN: So in those days, when you look back, you remember the camp people and the town people and the town people being more in the retail and service industry.

KM: That's right, the town people were retailing and the camp people were [inaudible] to stevedoring.

MN: And then in terms of status, what was the status situation like in the Japanese community?

KM: You had a subtle... I don't remember it being distinct now, but when you reflect back on it, there was a subtle difference between camp and town. Townsmen and camp... Japanese community, I hate to say this, but I think there were subtle discriminations within the Japanese society. Number one, I did not feel this or know about this growing up in Maui. I don't think we had this difference between what we called Naichi Japanese and Okinawan prefectural people. Because the Okinawan community in Maui was big. They had a lot of Okinawans in Maui in the plantation. I don't know if it's because of my family or my parents, but I never was brought up with the feeling of looking down upon the Okinawan people. And I think this is due to my parents who were both very liberal-minded, looking back, from the cultural aspect. Well, also, for many years, while growing up, I never knew there was a Jewish religion or Jewish people. I always thought of it as an adjective. This is true. And until I graduated and saw what I saw in Dachau, I did not realize the significance of the Jewish people, or the existence of the Jewish people. And when I decided to go to law school, I was further indoctrinated into the so-called anti-Semitism that prevailed in the U.S. at that point of history.

MN: You know, I guess on Maui you weren't aware of Jewish people or anti-Semitism, and you're saying that in your family, at least, you didn't feel too much of the Naichi prejudices against the Okinawans.

KM: Remind me of what my father's role in that, but basically, in the cultural upbringing at that time was white against non-white. The whole community was based on whether you were a hakujin or haole or non-haole. Non-haole being everybody else was put in the one category of non-haole. And even economic-wise, all white-collar jobs, that's where I think, in Hawaii, we had the differentiation and distinct meaning of white-collar jobs. White-collar jobs were those jobs available to only the Caucasian group. Plantation, office, secretarial jobs and on up were strictly Caucasian. And there was a breaking of that barrier by my generation because there was one Nisei who was one of the elder Nisei who rose to be... in fact, office manager of the Kahului Railroad. I forgot his name. But my very good friend, just like my brother, George Kondo, quit school, high school, in his senior year because his father passed away. And at that early age he started to work as an office boy at the Kahului Railroad. Started as an office boy. He ended up as being the office manager. So the line was breached within my generation that I can remember. George rose from office boy to become the office manager of Kahului Railroad before he died, all within that one generation. But as I said, in those days, it was the friendship between. Socially, it was white or nonwhite.

<End Segment 3> - Copyright © 2021 Densho. All Rights Reserved.