Densho Digital Archive
Whitworth College - North by Northwest Collection
Title: Ed Tsutakawa - Heidi Tsutakawa Interview
Narrators: Ed and Heidi Tsutakawa
Interviewer: Andrea Dilley
Location:
Date: 2003-2004
Densho ID: denshovh-ted_g-01

[Correct spelling of certain names, words and terms used in this interview have not been verified.]

<Begin Segment 1>

ET: Well, I'll start. [Laughs] It was something that... totally new experience, anything that happened. It's during my university days, so I quit just before starting the third year at the University of Washington. And we didn't know just exactly what's going to happen from day to day. So the talk of evacuation or internment camp, of course, started around the same time. War was going, it was pretty furious, but we didn't really feel that, according to the news, newspaper, all these anti-Japanese American movement. Wasn't quite the way we expected. I think there were a number of friends at the school, teachers, they were very sympathetic about the whole thing, and I think maybe that we were, started to, to feel the thing we talked about, is something that we cannot help ourselves, we just have to kind of go along with what the government is doing, and we will follow the order. It's not the time to really exercise our civil rights around that time. I don't think we fully understood what that civil rights was at the time. So we just, just left it up to what's happening. We followed a lot of it from immediate, the people around us telling, you know, what should be done, and in order to help the situation, we did cooperate with the authorities. And just maintained the idea of nothing could be done.

It's a very helpless feeling at the time, this is what, where I used that word: shikata ga nai. And that feeling is, is there's very much nothing you could do, it's helpless. But you just have to keep it to yourself, to... it's kind of a gaman, is the word that they use a lot. It's patience, but it's more calculated perseverance than anything. So that you have a hope in the future. The best is to, of course, not to fight the time. I think you've seen that happen. Maybe we were too peaceful at the time, I don't know. I don't think any time during that three-and-a-half years I had -- totally, actually, it's about two years, your incarceration of Japanese Americans into internment camp. And not really that we know that happened against United States or anything. I think it's, it's a totally, it's a cooperation from evacuees, or like ours, but yet, we always felt that there is a hope and a brighter thing in the future, and that kind of kept us going. So like you said, how would you like to spend that time? I think you just have to take the best, you might say, shot. This is, this is where the, eventually, the Japanese Americans came and they made a movie of how Japanese American soldiers performed in Europe, it's called Go For Broke. [Laughs] Go For Broke has, very typically, it's our Japanese Americans who loved some of these gambling or crap-shooting slogan, "go for broke," came out of Hawaii, and I think it's typically, it's a good, through little steps we did have this, is a very helpless feeling, nothing you could do to persevere, the chance. Then there was the opportunity to serve in the front line combat team and "go for broke."

And so that is what really kept us going. I don't think we really had the real bad experience. I don't think government can ever really put us through any type of torture experience of any kind. We probably were a little bit more opportunist, maybe, and took advantage of whatever it was given to us to make it better for our, for our life. But there was a tremendous amount of cooperations and help, help each other during that time.

<End Segment 1> - Copyright © 2004 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 2>

AD: How did you guys, tell me the fun story about how you guys met at camp. Maybe you can talk about that, Heidi. How did you guys, how did you guys know each other?

ET: You better, you better say something.

AD: Tell us how you, tell us how you met at camp. How did you guys know each other?

HT: Well, see, I was in Tule Lake, you know, and he was in Minidoka. And when Tule Lake became a segregation center for the "no-no" people, we were all, you know, sent to different camps. And happened to be next door. He wasn't there, though, his sister and I were.

ET: I went out fairly early, but she moved...

HT: We had lots of fun, though. And I think a lot of us felt guilty because we had so much fun, whereas the other people were so unhappy. There's a lot of people that were unhappy. Young people, we all had fun.

AD: Why was it fun for you?

HT: Well, we met a lot of people our own age.

ET: I think that the "fun" that she talks about is not, really, it was there. It's something that we just have to, to plan ourselves, to keep ourselves entertained, like sports, we had...

HT: Crafts.

ET: Yeah, crafts, social occasions, we had [inaudible] dance. And actually, you figure that we were from Seattle, and we're near Twin Falls, it's a very... compared to, of course, the Seattle life, or life in Twin Falls is still, it's pretty... well, I wouldn't say behind. Only thing was, our type of music was, you know, so far ahead of what is available in Twin Falls. And I remember we caused some problems because cowboy musicians were outdated themselves, soon as we were heard playing, those days it's Bing Crosby, Bob Crosby, Glenn Miller. [Laughs] All these, the very popular music. And we brought that into Twin Falls, by, not by accident, but we happened to be there, and we were enjoying ourselves. And pretty soon the youngsters heard us. And so we were actually welcomed by all these people, and that's the type of fun we're talking about. It is something that we ourselves never had to do that too much, but suddenly, we were organized.

[Interruption]

HT: It wasn't that bad, but there were families that had it pretty hard before, before the war, you know. But being Japanese, they would never ask for help. And they had several kids, these were island people, you know, Vashon Island. And they never asked, they would never ask for help. I don't know how they got by, you know, but anyway, they got by somehow. But going to camp, at least you got three meals a day, even if it was chickweeds in there. [Laughs] But you got three meals, you never had to worry, you got a roof over your head, and you've got heat, even if you have to, you know, bring in the coal and all that, you still had heat. So for lot of people, I think, it helped them out.

[Interruption]

AD: ...how Ed's family was a little bit wealthier than your family, so for him it was, it was different for you guys.

HT: Oh, I think the feeling would be different, you know. They lose everything. But like us, sure, we lost, but it's nothing compared to what they would do when they have businesses. And so our feelings would be a little different. And another thing; my dad was sick and they took care of him for us. The minute we went into camp, they took him to Fresno General Hospital, that's where we headed for, and he was in the hospital all the way through until we got transferred to Tule Lake. And then they had a hospital, so that's where he went into. But other than that, they took good care of him, as well as expected. I have no qualms about it. [Laughs] That's why they talk about it, but to me, lot of things. It was bad, but it wasn't that bad. There's always a good and a bad to everything. It isn't all bad. It wasn't all good, but it wasn't all bad, either. We enjoyed ourselves, being young. And sure, it's hard on our parents, but... and just like one of our relatives said, Mother never talked about it because she felt so guilty, having so much fun in camp because she was young, and everybody else talked about how bad it was. She enjoyed herself. [Laughs]

ET: Well, historically, of course, it's not a good thing that evacuees went in and everything turned out fun. But I think it's, like I said, youth has a different attitude. I'm definitely youth, and it wasn't very much effort for us to find the fun instead of agony of life. So it's easy for us to work, most of us were pretty busy. I know my father was sick, and eventually you could... when you stop to think, her father died, and you cannot really blame that to the evacuation. My father died, and I think I blamed the evacuation a lot. But at the same time, I think he was sick enough, I don't think he had a chance in the world to survive. And so you could make your story very tragic, very hard, and definitely, of course, civil rights were violated, and you could make a real case out of it. But that's not our thing. We were a small, small group of minority Japanese Americans, surprising, you hear so much about them, yet we are one of the, probably the smallest minority. Even today, we are small. And what chance do they have to really make any kind of a stand for their personal rights. We did probably internally develop the feeling of empathy and sympathy, too, to some of the people that went through the same experience. But I don't think the Nisei Americans would never let the evacuation or incarceration or internment camp for citizens of these minorities. Again, that'll be the once and all. Which is a good thing. Good thing because of the fact that we certainly believe that that's the way to go. It shouldn't be anything to fight against.

<End Segment 2> - Copyright © 2004 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 3>

AD: Tell us about the train ride, like start in the beginning there, tell us about it. Just that you said, "We went"...

HT: Yeah, that was my first train trip, on one of those old, old trains. And it was dusty. It was really dusty.

ET: It was... they didn't have any trains.

HT: And then the shades were all pulled down. What little light we had in the train, we still had the shades pulled down. And then there were troops on the sides, and then we traveled like that all the way down to Fresno, California. And it was hot. But that was the worst of it. Once we... I never saw so many Japanese in my life. [Laughs] I couldn't believe there were so many of 'em. You know when you're gathered in a camp like that, you got to gather from all over, yeah. And to see all those people, you know, we were the only Japanese in our whole elementary school, almost, over there on the island. It was sort of a shocking experience.

AD: Tell me more about, you remember you told me the story about what was being strict, because you were, like, sixteen and here you were --

HT: No, I'm not sixteen. I wasn't that young. [Laughs] Yeah, you know? So I was, what, nineteen? Yeah, eighteen, nineteen, nineteen I think it is.

AD: So what was... you talked about getting used to camp and having to go to... the bathrooms were all these people. What was, talk about it.

HT: The bathrooms? There was eight holes back to back. Four of 'em, and then four on the other side. No partitions. That's the first time I ever went bathroom like that. When you have to go, you have to go. Yeah. And then when it got filled up, they moved the house over. That's how it was. Because it was an assembly center. And once we moved into Tule, everything was more set up, bathrooms and everything were all set up. But in the assembly centers was where they all gathered us. And so a lot of things weren't quite ready yet. Even in Minidoka it wasn't.

ET: Yeah. I think those are the things that developed slowly. But we were without that kind of a facility for at least three months.

HT: And to be pushed into things like that, it was a little shocking for us. Especially young girls. You're hiding everything anyway, and then here you are with everybody else, can't do anything about it. [Laughs] But experience. But we never talked about it, though. We never talked about it.

ET: What I think is that's the part we always talk about, shikata ga nai. It's just something that cannot be helped.

HT: Think about it or anything.

ET: Same time, of course, those of us, we worked even in that train ride, I tried to call attention of the guard, tried to see if we'd get some help. Brought in some better water to drink, and the food was... I can't even remember what I ate. It was not good. And the trip shouldn't be much more than, say, about maybe fourteen, fifteen hours, it seems like it's two, three days. And we stopped in Boise, and immediately they closed the windows that no one could see in. I think it's probably their intention was to protect the evacuees from, there were a number of soldiers and I went to see them. I went outside and almost got shot, but I was desperate trying to get some help.

<End Segment 3> - Copyright © 2004 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 4>

AD: Tell us about when you were at the assembly center and you were painting and had the guy with the...

ET: Well, that was at assembly center. I was on top of the roof and tried to sketch some of the things. And next thing you know, there was a bayonet stuck on my back. And I don't think he would stab me or anything, it's just threatened me to get off of there. So I did, but at the same time, they were pretty nervous. Some of 'em are about the same age as I was. They were very, very nervous, because at night, same... I don't know whether it's the same fellow or not, but he yelled at something that moved, "Halt, halt," and the thing didn't respond, so he shot. And he shot and made sure that the movement was gone. It was really hard to see. Found out that he'd killed a cow right outside the camp. So that type of thing happened, and we kind of laughed about it. But it was not, it was serious as far as he was concerned.

AD: What was it like to paint with a gun at your back?

ET: Well, that's the chance you have to take, because we didn't have any camera to shoot anything. So best thing is... and eventually newspaper people came to look at them, and they wanted to publish some of those. The Seattle Times did that when we were in the assembly center. When we went to Minidoka, Oregonian was right there to even tell us, send stuff in to Oregonian.

AD: Give us, tell us a little bit of an introduction so that people that are watching it know who you are but maybe by saying, "I was a painter and I painted a lot of scenes"...

ET: Yeah. By then, of course, my work was that. It was camp artist, there were a number of us, five or six of us, and we are all on recreational area. So we were helping people to actually have a lot of fun exercising some of the hobbies and that kind of thing. Mine was painting, so I just kept on painting. And they supplied with all the material I needed, and I requisitioned some of the best material. I still have them yet today, some of 'em. It was just great. I never had the privilege of working with that good of material, but government furnished us with that. Then of course the town of Twin Falls heard about that, and the newspaper came to look at that. So we worked together that way with the press. And so our life was, in that way, it was very well blessed and kept ourselves from going nuts. [Laughs]

AD: Why was it important in terms of recording history for you to paint those pictures? Tell us, and tell people we didn't have cameras, it was important.

ET: We didn't have a camera, but even army in those days, they used artists to do a lot of sketches. The camera wasn't available at the time. Today, I think the camera is so, just about everyone has camera. Artists are no longer working. When I was in art school at the University of Washington, we were asked to go to a surgery and did some medical art and things like that. So I think we had a lot more to do with on the spot sketches.

AD: Are you glad that you have those paintings to look back on?

ET: Well, you know, I did a lot of it, but then I only have about fourteen of 'em left. And just the other day, they wanted to borrow at a reunion, sixty year reunion of camp, they showed it. And some of the lost art pieces came back from those papers, and before I went to get them, they were gone. People just helped themselves. And I found them in people's living room and different places. Still hanging. But I never made a claim for it because it's okay to have them.

AD: Maybe just start out by saying, "I painted about fourteen or so paintings while in camp," and just start by saying that, and describe some of the --

ET: Yeah, I think total number of paintings, probably fifty maybe. And the fourteen of 'em are left, and a lot of that fourteen, I feel the real artwork is maybe one or two or so. But yet, those people who've seen these before, or see it after sixty years, bring back a lot of memories of those things. There were times where I wanted to do, and I didn't have a lot of sketch, sketchbook or things to draw with, like I was out in the farm security camp, and tried to help the harvesting around Twin Falls area. I don't have any of those.

<End Segment 4> - Copyright © 2004 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 5>

AD: Tell us about the barracks. You were kind of describing them. What was it like to live in the barracks?

HT: We had, what, six apartments? Two ends for couples and bachelors, or a big family. 'Cause I think it held about five people in the end, and then we had the two middle ones, which was for families. And there were six of us, so they gave us two rooms. This was in Tule Lake. But my dad was in the hospital, but he was still included as six, so we got two apartments. And then the bachelors on each side of us, and married couples on the end. It wasn't bad. Only thing, you only have one room, and we just sleep in there and live in there. We slept on straw mattresses. [Laughs] Yeah. They gave us mattresses. Army cots.

ET: We were issued a bag.

HT: And just think; from the Northwest, we never had temperature in the hundreds. And we went down to Fresno, and you know, it was hot. It was a hundred and something. And you know those army cots would sink into the asphalt floor. They put asphalt on there, and then it gets so hot that the bed would, it would sink in about that much into the asphalt. And the coolest part was under the bed, so every day we'd wash out the floor with hose, and then crawl under the bed and stay there to cool off. Yeah, it was hot. Oh, it was hot over there at Fresno, California. And I think we were next to the fig grove, and I think those groves lost a lot of money because of the dust. They had to clear the area out, and the wind would blow, and I think it would just cover those figs with dust.

AD: Do you remember, were you angry at all that you were in this really harsh place with harsh...

HT: Well, to really tell you the truth, I don't remember too much anymore. Like he said, I can't even remember how many days it took us to get to Fresno from Seattle in these old coaches or whatever you call it. I don't even remember. I can't even remember what they fed us, or even about the bathrooms I couldn't remember whether we had to go or not.

AD: Did you feel like your home had been taken from you?

HT: Well, we were pushed out of our home, but I don't know. Never had too much thought about things like that, you know. Lost everything because we had to empty out our house, and our friends took care of it, but they thought we were never coming back. I don't know if they sold it or they gave it away or what, but when we went after it, there was nothing left. So you know, lost everything, but I don't know. It's the past. It's hard to put a word to it.

ET: Sixty years ago. Sixty-two years ago.

HT: It's hard. But when we came out of Tule Lake, have you ever ridden in a boxcar? That's what we came out of. So whenever they talk about the Holocaust and how they pushed the people into the boxcar, hey, I said, I've gone through that.

ET: Well, you saw that Dr. Zhivago movie?

HT: The U.S. did that to us.

ET: Can you imagine?

HT: Maybe the Germans did it to the Jews, but U.S. did it to citizens. We were stuffed into a boxcar from Tule Lake to Klamath Falls. It wasn't a very long ride, but we were in a boxcar.

ET: I was in a baggage car, an old one. But, I mean, it's not exaggeration to say the Dr. Zhivago trip in Siberia is a luxury compared to that train ride we had from Puyallup to Twin Falls.

HT: Oh, did you go in a boxcar?

ET: No, it was a baggage car.

HT: No, ours was from Tule Lake to Klamath Falls.

ET: And it was dusty, old, old car that never... they had to use every available...

HT: That's why whenever I see that German stuff, it sort of makes me unhappy because U.S. did the same thing to us. Maybe they didn't shoot us after we got out there, but we were all herded into a boxcar. And the door slammed on the side, a few benches to sit on. It was a short trip.

ET: That's when you used that shikata ga nai feeling.

HT: Yeah, see?

ET: Nothing you can do.

HT: Whenever I hear about the Holocaust and how they make a big thing of it here in the U.S., I think, "What have they got to say when they've done the same thing to us?" That's the only thing I say.

ET: You know, we do have a few people we could blame. I don't think you know who they are. You haven't even heard of them. I asked a group of people at the college when I was talking about it, and I don't know, maybe one of you might... maybe, Rose, you might have heard about Earl Warren? Who is he?

Rose: I only know him from later.

ET: Well, he was the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States. And he was chased out by Rotary Club, International Rotary Club, he's not worthy of that position. And Roosevelt is the other one. I mean, the bad judgment of that is very historical. And Earl Warren, you have never heard after that. He never apologized, but he is the one that...

HT: He was the governor of California, wasn't he?

ET: Yeah, he was the governor.

HT: Governor of California before he became Supreme Court.

ET: So around that time, we did have those bad politicians.

HT: I really didn't know Roosevelt was a bigot.

ET: Well, Roosevelt... you know who saved Franklin Roosevelt is Eleanor was completely the other way around.

HT: I was really disappointed.

ET: You know, if you say that right now in the public, you'd be very much criticized. But now the book come out. Within our own group of people, Japanese Americans, there were some that are against, the group of people called Kibei, and that's like us --

HT: Not me.

ET: -- were in Japan. I was in Japan, got some education in Japan and came back to the United States. And Saburo Kido was very high up in JACL, wrote the book Kibei: The Traitors of Japanese Americans. And that book was sold at the Seattle National Convention, and I stood up and spoke to the convention people and took all that book out, got rid of it. Those days, we were exercising our civil rights.

<End Segment 5> - Copyright © 2004 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 6>

AD: Tell us about Minidoka and you both arrived there and what that was like?

ET: Well, I got there in August.

AD: When you say "there," "I got to Minidoka..." so we know what you're talking about.

ET: Yeah, Minidoka, in August of 1942, okay. But I didn't stay there very long. Within about a month I went out to Twin Falls to work on farm, harvesting, then came back in November and stayed until April, 1943. I had a good job. Kept me real busy, and the people certainly got a lot out of some of our effort. Now, the job we're talking about, mine was a recreational area, but each one of us has to volunteer to do some manual labor. Like mine was, I was a coal truck driver, so we'd take the truck over to the spur and load it up with coal and bring that truck back. I made probably about six trips each time. My turn came maybe once every three weeks or so. It was very hard work, but it's kind of an enjoyable time in those days. I didn't have to load up, the people did. The rest of the time I was doing sketches, so I have plenty of that kind of thing.

[Interruption]

ET: That's one of the things that I think enjoyed the most, is we had great band and dance almost every night.

HT: Every weekend.

ET: [Laughs] Seems like every night. We had dance competitions and things like that.

AD: Wait, so say again how you guys met?

ET: That night that... gee, that year was 1943, '44 maybe.

HT: Your dad passed away in '44.

ET: Yeah, 1944. Around that time, I met.

HT: 'Cause it wasn't too long afterwards that your dad passed away, after we went in?

ET: Yeah. My sister already knew Hide. They're both named Hide, incidentally. [Laughs] Confusing.

HT: We would fight. For three days we wouldn't talk to each other.

ET: That's not me, she's talking about sister.

HT: Yeah, his sister and I. But we would go breakfast, lunch, dinner, and shower together, but we would just listen to hear somebody moving around, then we'd go out, walk out together, walk to eat, we don't say a word, come back, don't even say goodbye, goodnight or nothing. But it was like that for about three days, we wouldn't talk to each other. But we were the best of friends, I'm not kidding.

AD: So then how did... so Ed, your dad set you guys up, or tell us again what...

HT: No, no. He was out. It just so happened. He was my brother, my big brother.

ET: I came out to go out to -- well, first, my intention was to go to Gonzaga, but it didn't work out, so I went to Chicago. But I went back to camp to look and see my father. From 1943 to 1944, eleven times I went back. That's a lot, once a month. The reason was I also had a job buying used tires from Salt Lake and Denver. My job was to buy tires from Gates Rubber Company, it was a big tire company. And on the way back, I'd go through the camp, and used to bring back about two, three men who worked in the tire shop. So I made that trip fairly often, at least once a month.

AD: So then you guys saw each other then?

ET: Yeah, then --

HT: Oh, once in a while. Because he was out most of the time.

ET: Then when I was out, I rented a house. My mother came, my sister came, my brother came in 1945, then they came out. We all stayed in one house.

HT: In Spokane.

ET: In Spokane. Then she left, she's the first one to leave. My sister left...

HT: Oh, your sister was married by then.

ET: Oh, yeah, that's right.

HT: She was married.

ET: But anyway, my mother thought that she's going to start a little business in Seattle, so she went back.

<End Segment 6> - Copyright © 2004 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 7>

ET: That's exactly what happened.

HT: That's the way it was. That's why, that stone that we have, at the reunion, we won it because we never got married in camp. We met in camp, but married later on, outside of camp.

ET: There were a number of us, our life started in camp. It's 1944, 1945, we met. We didn't get married until 1949.

AD: And tell us, where did you go on your honeymoon?

HT: You wouldn't believe it.

ET: [Laughs] Yeah, camp.

HT: We went back to camp.

ET: Honeymoon. Well, we got married in Sun Valley, and then we drove down to Twin Falls and stayed there and went to visit the camp. In those days, the camp was still, not going, it's completely empty. And a lot of the farmers moved in.

HT: Lot of the barracks were gone by then.

ET: Lot of the barracks were gone. And I see these barracks in the farmland all around Twin Falls.

AD: What made you want to go back to camp for your...

ET: Then we went back twice, twice or three times.

HT: Just to see.

ET: We took even kids down there. Then...

HT: But by that time, there was hardly anything left except for the entrance. They had a stone entrance there, and it was there, but it didn't mean anything to the kids. And they never asked us questions because once we started talking, my son would say, "There they go again." And so it got to the point where they never asked, so we never said anything.

ET: It really wasn't a bad place to go to take trip, taking family down there. And each time... it's not a sad experience to go and see, no. The last one was Idaho, kind of declared that as a special historical site. Now, the Clinton just recently made that into a national memorial, Minidoka. So is the other camps, ten of them all together.

HT: So one year we took a trip down to Tule Lake, too.

ET: I'm glad that the federal government really...

HT: That was a biggie.

ET: ...put that kind of an effort to keep that into a part of history, and I think one is they're not ashamed to say that the federal government did make mistakes.

AD: How did you feel when you went back to what was a camp? What do you remember feeling?

HT: "Oh, is that all that's left?" Because lot of the places where we lived is gone now. The only thing we saw was the warehouses. The rest is all gone, so it's sort of hard to tell where you had spent so much time. But it's just the idea that we went. They're gonna have another reunion this year, I think. Is that what it is?

ET: I think so. I think...

HT: But I've never gone to a reunion.

ET: It's not a real, the place to remember, a bad place, that's for sure. I think it's assurance of maybe that will never happen again. And I think we do have senators and national congressmen from the Japanese Americans will make sure that that will never happen again. And I think it's politically, we are matured enough. See, I was probably the most average age, just twenty-one, twenty-two, that age at the time. This is why we started our conversation, what is happening, and it's very hard to recollect anything. Nothing happened according to the schedule. Everything happened in surprises. And maybe that part is so quick, and happened in such a short time, that really didn't give us chance to make any kind of sense out of this. What I really, really feel when I go there -- my personal feeling. I don't know about her or anybody else, but it's kind of sad that you wasted that time. Even though mine was less than a year, but I wasted that time. I could have been doing service, I could have done other things. But that didn't happen. Military record, I don't know whether I have any kind of military record, although I was given a commission at the time, but never had to serve. It was one of those strange times. So just kind of a feeling of blank sort of a period, very confusing. Lot of things happened, but nothing really positive.

<End Segment 7> - Copyright © 2004 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 8>

AD: How did that feel for you to serve? Tell us how you served for the U.S. military --

ET: Well, I was given a test, and in the minute they went through with me, "Would you be willing to serve?" I had a very angry feeling towards Japan because of the fact that the left three hundred thousand people, they sacrificed all these three hundred thousand people and started a war. And maybe that's a very oversimplified reason, because war is, when you really stop to think, psychological part of the war, if Japan warned us, "Hey, we're gonna drop a bomb in Pearl Harbor on such and such day," then they could have never got the thing done, maybe. But we are the victim, but what happened to same victim again by the United States? They just victimized us again.

HT: We were without a country.

ET: We were completely without a country, we were stripped of our citizenship which is a very drastic move by the United States government. This is why I think of Roosevelt to blame for that. And Earl Warren never thought that was a crime. And this is, I think, the worst crime against another human being. It could have happened in the United States, and this is the thing that...

AD: Heidi, talk more about what you mean by "being without a country."

HT: Well, I just say that because they didn't want us, Japan didn't want us. We're foreigners, and the U.S. didn't want us, put us in a camp. We were people without a country for so many years. Here we're U.S. citizens, and we're treated like that. But we were young. You know, we never thought too much of things like that when you're young. All you thought about is, "Oh, we're going to camp. What's it going to be like?" Never thought about being without a country, or this is afterwards you think about it. But at the time, we're going to camp, wonder what kind of a life we're going to have over there. That's all you think about, who you're gonna meet and what you're gonna do, and you're young. And if everything works out fine, then you're very, very happy. You have no worry, go to bed, wake up, play, go back to bed. There's no worry at all. When you're young. So I never think about, I never thought about my mom losing anything until it got later. When, "Oh, I wish I had this," or, "I wish I had that," 'cause Mom had it. But, see, we didn't have any of that leftover. Before that, never thought about it, just lived day to day being happy where you are.

ET: I think as a man without a country, it's depending on where you are in your lifetime, what age you are. Some of 'em felt very much responsible. The trip from Puyallup to Minidoka, I knew it was fairly safe. And some of my friends left earlier, asked me if I would go and volunteer to build a camp. And I get the thing set up, but then my commitment with family, I stayed with family. But then I felt fairly safe because of the fact that I even heard from some of my friends that went ahead to camp. But a lot of 'em believed we're gonna be shot right at the end of this train trip. We'll be lined up and be shot. And I said, "No way that's going to happen. Don't worry about it." But my father, my father really believed it's gonna be end of all of us at the time. And that's kind of sad. And this is when I said I felt very desperate to reach out for Red Cross and people like, but they didn't pay any attention to us. That was kind of sad. But I don't know whether I would have done probably the same under the same circumstance. Well, if I was volunteering for the Red Cross and here a bunch of evacuees come on another train, and knowing that's them, and of course a guard is watching them, they won't let them out, here the inside of that train there were so many sick people, they needed help, they needed doctors, they needed nurse, they needed food, they needed water, nothing was provided. But it was not because we were Japanese American, but under the circumstances, we could be the completely the other way around. I have to tell you, you know that I came out here and we went to... one day, I can't remember what occasion it was, Red Cross people had a program and we were there. And he told about the atrocity of Japanese soldiers. And, of course, I felt bad about this, and he was just saying that. But yet, I felt so angry at the time, and I stood up and told him off and what the American Red Cross did to us, or didn't do a thing for us. And I think it was Mr. Cole, publishing, he backed me up.

AD: Did you guys consider yourselves American, and how did that feel to be treated as not American?

ET: Well, actually, I feel, like I said, I was very angry at the Japanese at the time. And we only have one country. No matter... I have a 4-C classification, which is "alien Americans," and here I have a 1-A classification at the same time. So it was a very crazy time at the time, but I always maintain that I am an American. I started the Sister City and [inaudible]. One time I was accused of bombing Japan because of the fact that I flew a little bit myself. [Laughs] Those are misunderstandings, it happened all the time.

<End Segment 8> - Copyright © 2004 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 9>

AD: Heidi, did you consider yourself an American?

HT: Well, see, that's all I knew. And then we got pushed into the camp like that, my mom says, "This is what America is." And she says, "You say you're American. What's so good about it?" So we always used to fight, my mother and I. Because she's Japan Japanese. And so she said, and I said, "Well, I'm an American. I don't care what you say, I'm an American." And then when this happened, she says, "You're an American, they don't even take care of you. And you still say you're an American?" I said, "That's all I have." That's really all I have. I don't know anything else.

ET: My father did say that, just before he died, he said, "Well, you know, I cannot tell you what to do. You'll have to do what your heart tells you, what you should be doing." In other words, he knew that I would never be able to turn my back against the United States. And that's the way we were, most of us. We only knew the one country. So I think you probably think that the Hawaiian 442 was the thing that I didn't mind going into, combat team, on the front lines with the rest of 'em, because that's the only country I'm going to defend at the time, no matter how badly we were treated. And my father knew about it, he said, "You have to do what you have to do."

AD: But you were with Military Intelligence, right?

ET: Well, I was Military Intelligence in civilian way. I was too underage to be in that spot where they send me, immediately the answer was if they want to keep me, I have to give up my commission, which was okay with me.

AD: Why did you want to --

HT: You know, it was hard for him because he's got brother over there.

ET: Oh, yeah, that's another thing, too.

HT: And if he went over there, you wouldn't know when you were going to meet him. Because we didn't know where he was. And so here he's with the U.S. and other one is with Japan. He was a citizen but I think gave up his citizenship and became Japanese at the time, is that right?

ET: Well, I think everyone has to.

HT: Yeah, he became a citizen.

ET: Not only my brother, but then there were some Caucasians, Caucasian Americans in Japan who fought against us. So that's a storybook type of a situation where two brothers fought for two different countries.

AD: How did you feel about that?

ET: Bad. I don't want to meet him on the battlefield, but I don't think we ever came to that.

HT: But he was lucky, though, because he had a good, what is that, officer?

ET: He was an officer, but they asked him, said, "How many brothers and sisters you have?" Said, "Two brothers. They're both Americans, and my brother served in the army also." And by then I had a brother-in-law. My sister was married, and he was in the front lines in Japan, in fact. And after the war, he went to see my brother.

HT: Tell him what he said.

ET: Yeah, and my brother told me later, he said, "I could not believe that we lost the war with Joe" -- Joe is my brother-in-law -- says he doesn't have the guts, or he doesn't have... [laughs].

HT: He said, "You want to go here?" "No, too far to walk." And we're not used to walking here in the United States. Over there, you walk everywhere you go. And so he says, "Let's go here, let's go there." "No, I'm too tired." "I'm too tired." That's what Joe would say. And so my brother-in-law over there, in Japan, he says, "To this day, I can't believe we lost the war." U.S. GIs who are so tired and can't do anything. He says, "I can't believe that we lost the war."

ET: Well, he was joking.

HT: Yeah, of course he's joking, but I couldn't believe it. He cocked his head and then said, "Couldn't believe it, we lost the war to American GIs, and they're all like him."

ET: He was not a real high-ranking officer or anything like that, but he was a Bar Association, he was an attorney and the Bar Association president.

HT: Oh, your brother.

ET: Of Osaka, which is a really big city, it's like Los Angeles. And well-respected guy. But he said, no, that's okay, once or twice a year we get together, and we do. We see each other in Hawaii, or he came over here about a half a dozen times. I go there about almost every year.

HT: What was it like to have one brother that's loyal to a country that's the enemy?

ET: Really... when you stay together, we don't talk about those things at all. I'm pretty sure that he's pretty loyal to his own country, I'm sure. Because his job is, he was a judge also. And I'm real proud of him, really, and I think he's real proud of me as a good public person for the United States.

HT: So when they get together, they're happy to be together.

ET: Oh, yeah. In fact, he's always with me. He's the younger brother, and he's always curious what I'm doing. And we play golf together an awful lot.

HT: But you know when he comes to the United States, he tries to become an American. He helps his wife open the door for her. But the minute his foot hit the Japan soil, he's a Japanese. [Laughs] That's what his wife told me. Door slams in her face, he walks through it, and then it slams in her face, she says. But in the U.S. he's very, very courteous. She says don't believe when he comes through it... minute his foot hits that soil, Japan soil, he's a Japanese. [Laughs] Yeah, it's funny.

<End Segment 9> - Copyright © 2004 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 10>

AD: Tell me, I'm gonna go back to camp here, Ed. Tell me, what did your family lose when you were evacuated?

ET: Well, we had a good-sized business, and my father was actually, rightfully he's the owner of that particular business. That business still goes on even after the war. I went back to help my cousin's family, and they were papa-mama store at the time, but now, they must have four hundred workers working. It's huge. When we closed up, I was the only one left, really, to close up both the... there was about three different businesses, retail business and wholesale business, and importing-exporting and distribution business. They sold food. I don't know. Do you know anything about Seattle, Uwajimaya, that's the company. They changed to Uwajimaya because that was our Tacoma branch store. And I didn't want to go back to start again. A lot of people ask, "Are you sorry," that I didn't go back, I'm not. [Laughs] I love to eat the stuff, but then I don't like to sell it.

AD: Tell us, though, but right when you got evacuated, what all did your family lose?

ET: Well, I think it's probably everything we have. Bank account, everything.

AD: Start... tell us, maybe just give us some context. Say, "When we were evacuated, we lost..."

ET: Well, I think around that time, there was about seventy thousand dollars cash that I knew the company had. It was hard-earned cash at the time. And then merchandise, maybe about another hundred thousand dollars was merchandise, it was given away. We had trucks and cars and things like that, amounts to quite a few thousand dollars, and that was all gone. So we didn't get anything back, really. My personal loss, I made a claim and I got some of that back. But anything like ownership starts, bank account, that was gone.

AD: How do you think your dad or you felt about losing all of that?

ET: What do you mean?

Off camera: How did that feel for your family, especially your parents, to lose...

ET: Okay, that's the part that it kind of makes me feel very uncomfortable. Because I could have kept most of that myself, they would have never known. I feel very honest about the whole thing and I feel very good about it, but I have never had to defend it. So a lot of people think, "Maybe Ed got most of that fortune." We didn't. [Laughs] We just... and I have some friends in Washington, D.C., that we could have gone, and probably would help. I think it's almost a Pandora's box maybe, to open that up, it would be a little bit more problems. This is about the only time I tell people about this because of the fact that Hide and I really didn't have any claim against the past. But we did lose everything. But those were items that you lose, but then the real sense, business, all the old connections and so forth are still there. So we reactivated as soon as possible for them. And it's a huge, huge business. I was in banking and I brought some of the Uwajimaya people into the bank that we were in, and he rose up to the Board of Directors of Bank of America. [Laughs] I can't remember, he was getting about $2,800 a month just to be on the board. So did real good. More power to him.

HT: That was when it was Seafirst, isn't it?

ET: Yeah, well, he actually had to do with the transformation of Seafirst into Bank of America. And I think he's... I got a letter that Tom Foley is going to be talking on the 21st at the Columbia Tower, Tomio has -- that's my cousin -- has that, and he's very close to Tom Foley now.

AD: Tell us, Ed, how were the losses for your family different than the losses for Heidi's family?

HT: Well, his is more businesses.

ET: Mine is pretty much corporation, big corporation.

HT: Whereas our is just personal.

ET: And besides, I did have some things lost. We were storing things into a church at the time. Most of that came back, about half of 'em were gone. That's personal loss.

AD: Did you guys lose more than Heidi's family?

HT: Oh, yeah. They had more.

ET: Well, it's hard to say, because I don't know what Heidi's family lost. They had a truck, Model T.

HT: Model A, you know.

ET: Model A?

HT: Things like that, but it was a long time ago. It's hard to say. And never cried about it. After we lost it, it's gone. Like my mom says, "Shikata ga nai," it's gone. So we just accept it.

ET: How are we doing, okay?

AD: You guys are doing great. Say that again, Heidi, about...

HT: Yeah, that's what my mom said, "Shikata ga nai," there's nothing we can do about it. So just grit our teeth and go on.

ET: Most evacuees really used that word, shikata ga nai, gaman. That's the key, gaman. Persevere.

AD: Could you describe that one more time, "gaman"?

ET: Gaman is like patience, and we always tell the kids, "Gaman," or tell each other. And that's just patience. But the real meaning is "persevere," and it had the meaning of brighter things to come in the future. And it's kind of a faith. Don't lose that faith.

AD: That's where we say a lot of young people don't have it. That's the reason why there's lots of divorces and things like that. No patience at all. You want it, you want it right now.

ET: In a way it's a kind of word that... I wouldn't say it's coined strictly by Japanese Americans. I see some people do that. I remember a few people here in town that odds are so against them, but yet they came through and win the life's battle. I know several people in this town achieved that. And it's the same thing, it's a nice thing to be recognized.

AD: What do you think about -- part of the video's going to be used for educational purposes. Why do you think kids these days should know what happened during World War II?

ET: Well, I think we should always think about who could suffer from this kind of situation.

<End Segment 10> - Copyright © 2004 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 11>

ET: Today, we attack Muslims, and I don't think we should. I mean, that's the kind of thing... I would say [inaudible] we should separate them, but just cannot isolate them, big group like Muslims, that's a huge, huge group of people. And I maintain that I'm a Christian, and it's a great religion, and the teaching that I have. Only thing is, I'm beginning to see some of the other things. I make a trip in Japan, and start to see the real teaching of Buddhist religion, but I have not yet had a cause for changing my religion. I think we can all survive thinking that any religion always have the so-called, kind of faith of creating better society for next generation, not for himself, not for present, but then always work toward, I think this is something that we said that, that the leadership Spokane, and I know he was interviewed on that. I think I'm beginning to see that Heidi and I were in religion that's a little bit off color from Buddhists. It's Zen headquarters, and our friend was, happened to be in that religion, so he took us to the headquarter, and we were so well treated. But to guess who was the one that actually tried to talk to us and explain to us, he had a perfect Oxford English. That's the kind of society we live in now.

AD: Now, Heidi, what about you in terms of why you think it's important for young generations to appreciate their freedom? You had your freedom taken away; kids don't know what that means now.

HT: Now or when I was young?

AD: Now. Kids today don't, they've never had their freedom taken away, so why do you think they should know your story?

[Interruption]

ET: You want me to answer that? I know her answer. Actually, the faith, maybe. And I think faith in people, probably, in family, kids, grandkids, and these are things that you want to keep it as strong as possible. You want, the same thing as I was saying, I think you try to create a better relationship for future, better sort of a world for next generation. Never try to do it to yourself. I think, I told the leadership of Spokane group that, "Try to become rich is not the real thing. You're going to try to become rich. If you do the other things, you're working toward a better future, you will automatically rewarded with whatever you need. It's kind of a faith that you just want to keep up.

AD: Do you think that's why your generation was patient during the evacuation for the next, to make things smooth for the next generation?

ET: I believe it. Like I don't know, I don't really ask my children what they think about that. My son is a little bit more concerned with that because of the fact that he is the bread-earner in his family. My daughter probably is the same, not as much, but she has tendencies to, of course, get away from their faith a little bit differently than we feel. It's kind of a complicated thing, but I think when I say faith, faith in good relationship is really important. I don't think you really... like leadership Spokane, we talk about, "Who makes you? Are you reading all these methods of becoming a great leader?" That doesn't happen. People makes it happen. It's a faith, a kind of relationship that develops into that. This is why all these candidates working, but then I don't see the real candidates come from the people. I always think that Tom Foley would be excellent for... I hope I won't cause Tom a lot of problems, but then he's the type of people that I really trust, and I keep my faith in having him as a good person. And this is what makes leadership Spokane very important. Because there are so many great people working. Out of that, they will select somebody, and that's the leader, the real leader. Not because he makes it, he has all the method, and ways that we qualify for leadership. I don't think that's going to happen. People have to decide that.

AD: Interesting.

<End Segment 11> - Copyright © 2004 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 12>

AD: What about, now really quickly, can you tell us about when you guys got out of camp, what was it like to adjust back to regular life? What do you remember? Was it difficult?

HT: I don't know. We didn't have much choice, but it wasn't... just blended right in again. Got the first job we can find, and it was fine.

AD: What about going back to Seattle? Because you came to Spokane and then --

HT: And then we went to Seattle.

AD: Was it hard to go back there?

HT: No. And then my girlfriend and I, it wasn't Hideko, not his sister, but my schoolmate, she and I got a job as a housemate, live-in. And so we would go back and forth, so we had lots of fun. The people were nice, both families were nice, so we got to do whatever we wanted to do. I was never treated like a maid.

AD: What about other families that look back...

HT: My brother, both my brothers moved to Cleveland, and my sister was here for a while, and then she moved to Vancouver, so I was the only one here on the West Coast here. She's down in Vancouver, Washington, here. You know, funny, I didn't have an auntie or an uncle or a cousin, and there was just the four of us, four kids, mom and dad, so you would think we would be very, very close. But I got close to his family. We all got closer to the family we married into, each one of us. So hardly ever talked to my brother or sister. Isn't that funny? We went through all evacuation, everything else together. But once we separated, we all went our separate ways, which is not so nice, I don't think. So nice.

AD: Do you think that's at all a reflection of the Japanese community as a whole postwar? People don't move back into the little communities, like in Seattle they don't move back to Japantown, you move out.

HT: Move out. Isn't that what happened?

ET: I think that happens to many minority people. They need each other right at the beginning, but as generation changes, they expand their relationship to completely different areas. And I found Spokane to be extremely attractive for creating a great relationship with people. I got to know the Cole family very well, I got to know Neil Fossey and his family pretty well. And belonged to the different kind of organizations. And yet to maintain my own church connection with Japanese Americans, and we do have Japanese American Citizens League, which I'm not that close, but then yet certain area, I'm serving as like a liaison person for the community and business way with the Japanese Americans. So those intermixes very good in Spokane. Seattle it doesn't work. I went back to Seattle to help some things, and so far, I ran into a real problem because I didn't know the physical makeup of the Japanese community there. I could get along with Department of Commerce or people like that, but really, it's because of, my relationship in Spokane is so much bigger and influential.

AD: Ed, or this is for both of you guys, too, ask questions here, I still want more. What did it... were you glad to get out of camp? What do you remember when you were -- especially for you, Heidi -- when you left camp for --

HT: Well, you don't worry about what's going to happen. Because we just got out of high school, never worked outside or anywhere, and so now we go back into the world, just wondered, "What in the world are we going to do now?" So for a while you wonder, you worry about it. And then like my mom, when she came out, naturally we lived close to the Japanese. It's the second generation that started moving out, isn't that right? The Isseis, the first generation, more or less grouped together. But the second generation moved out, the third is way off somewhere. And like my kids, they can't even speak or understand Japanese even a little bit, huh?

ET: Sometimes they're...

HT: So sad. [Laughs]

ET: There are some wonderful things about being Japanese American. And I don't think I have to teach them, or they have to learn it themselves. But as a whole, you really have a lot of faith in your own relationship with the kids, and whole family and friends and community. I think it was, one of the best things was like she became very busy right at the beginning because we had, immediately had three kids. And she's going to be busy with the kids, she didn't have time to really wonder about what's going to happen. But one day I brought, a friend of mine asked me, says, he wanted to start the business, but he wanted someone, so I asked her and she said, "Yeah, I do know such a person," that's me. First time she wanted to get a job here in town, that is import market, I don't know whether you remember Bob Dewey, and that was her boss. And that's the only one that you really had the business experience with...

HT: Working, that's it.

ET: And she was the vice president.

HT: Dollar quarter an hour. [Laughs] Can you imagine that? Dollar a quarter an hour and I was very happy.

ET: Yeah, well, but then it's a job.

HT: I was with him for twenty-seven years before he closed up. I helped him open it, and then we closed it together. He had other stores, but the main one we closed together and then I quit.

ET: They started with just two to begin with. And five or six stores, three restaurants, and I don't know how many employees, a couple hundred, hundred fifty? Well, anyway, it was a huge business. And when she quit, retired, the whole business retired the same time. [Laughs]

HT: A few years afterwards.

ET: So that's the only job she ever held in Spokane.

AD: That's a long time.

HT: Yes, it's a long time.

AD: Okay. One other detail that you guys talked about, you're going to think this is goofy that I even want it, but you said you drove a truck, and you said something about the fact that it was used as both a garbage truck and...

HT: Oh, that's him. He's the one that...

ET: Okay. The driving, it was a good job as far as I'm concerned. I'll do anything. I will drive truck or a car or anything for people. So I just turned the car that I drove all my former employees' items was just chuck full of this thing in this truck and took it to camp, and I just figured I'm going to throw 'em away. It was a good, good car.

[Interruption]

ET: The camp needed an ambulance, and I said, "Go ahead and use that as an ambulance." Then the next thing you know, that turned into a garbage truck. [Laughs] Here I was driving an ambulance one day and a garbage truck next day, and then finally sold it. Then when I went to Minidoka, they're looking for, again, a volunteer for truck driving, bringing coal. I said, "Sure, I'll do it." [Laughs]

<End Segment 12> - Copyright © 2004 Densho. All Rights Reserved.

<Begin Segment 13>

ET: On the day that Pearl Harbor, I thought, I couldn't believe it. I thought it's going to be either Orson Welles show or something, it was blasting away, and I could hear what it said. And then a fellow yelling at me. I was at the East Water Gate sketching a battleship. Said, "You know the war is going on." I said, "Who's fighting?" Said, "Well, Japan just dropped a bomb on Pearl Harbor." And he said, "Well, we don't know exactly what kind of the war it is, maybe we'll have a real war starting." He said, "Well, let's listen." So we were listening to it, and it didn't sound too good. So that's where I was.

HT: Radio.

ET: Yeah, radio.

HT: We didn't have television.

AD: What happened to that painting you were doing?

ET: You know, that's a good question. I took it to school the next day, and there was an FBI already there, confiscated it.

AD: Wait, say that again so that people know what you're talking about. Say, "I took the painting to school."

ET: Yeah, I took the painting to school, University of Washington, and there they were. People knew that I was sketching. Nothing happened after that, and they're the one that's got the painting. It wasn't much of a drawing. I loved sketching ships of all kinds.

AD: So tell us, I'm going to have you tell us that story one more time, kind of the short version. So tell us... think if you were telling it to a little kid and you said, "I was painting when I heard about Pearl Harbor, and then I took the painting and it was confiscated."

ET: Yeah. That's precisely what happened. I think I'm not the only one that activities were... they thought it was kind of strange having somebody sketching and Pearl Harbor was bombed. They saw some connection maybe. I don't think it was a battleship. It could be that it was a military or navy ship of some kind. But the sailor was extremely friendly, he was just kind of kidding me right at the beginning, and I didn't believe him that all these problems.

AD: So tell us... do you think you can say it like I'm saying it? So you can just repeated it in sort of a short story form. Saying, "When Pearl Harbor happened, I was painting."

ET: Okay, the Pearl Harbor was, of course, was in the air, the radio broadcasting. And seems like this particular thing was right at the site, that's coming from Pearl Harbor. And then I wasn't even thinking about anything, and that afternoon, I had to see my friend. So he was also listening to the radio, too. And the next day, I thought I'd better take all that to school. I don't know what made me do that, but I took it to school, which is a good thing because when I took it, there was a gentleman waiting for me to show him the sketch.

AD: Interesting.

ET: Yeah. It was kind of a... come to think of it, I don't think I was ever suspected as a spy or anything. The only thing was they could have made any kind of story out of it, but nothing came out in the paper. There were a few people arrested, but I was not arrested. My father, if he wasn't sick, he should be arrested. My uncle was. They came and got him that night.

HT: I think my dad would have been, too, if he wasn't sick. Because he had dynamites and caps, you know, we were on a farm. We had dynamite, caps, and things like that in our warehouse. Minute we heard Pearl Harbor, first thing we said was, "Hey, let's get rid of the dynamites." We got hold of the caps and threw it out in the garbage out in the woods. But the rest of it was still there. And the FBI came and says... we said, "We got rid of it." And he said, "Where'd you get rid of it?" Says, "Threw it out there, the caps." But my dad was sick, so nothing happened. Yeah, nothing happened. The dynamite was right there because we had to blast, Dad had to blast a lot, it's farm. So he had all that. So his dad would be in for another different kind of a thing maybe, whereas mine would be for holding, having dynamite and things like that. We didn't have any guns or anything like that. Only thing I know is that when Pearl Harbor started, they attacked Pearl Harbor, our friends were on leave at the time. He was in the army, and he was on leave, the Miyoshis. And all I know is that he got phone calls saying they had to go back. I don't know what happened. Because like my brother was 1-A but they reclassified him to, what, 4-C?

ET: 4-C.

HT: 4-C, yeah. Right away they reclassified.

ET: 4-C is the "enemy alien." So we were citizens to "enemy aliens."

AD: And tell me very briefly, Ed, when you came back from Japan, that was pre-Pearl Harbor, is that right?

ET: Oh, yeah, 1936, so five years before.

AD: Can you explain how you were treated when you came back?

ET: Okay, it could be some relationship with what happened to me, I don't know. But I was locked up in immigration, and it was exactly the same as jail. It's a crying shame. I always maintain that we have a great country, only thing is we just don't treat immigrants, we just treat 'em like a prisoner. And I didn't understand that, and here I am a citizen of the United States, I was the same boat, they just... so around that time there was some ill-feeling between the two countries, the federal government and political situation was bad. Maybe that's why I was in immigration. It was four days, but then that seems like a long time. And I remember the guy that was helping me, was an interpreter, but I spoke better English than he did. [Laughs] It was kind of funny, why he was... he reminded me of... you know who Sidney Greenfield is, a comedian? And kind of a miniaturized Sydney Greenfield, Panama hat, white suit, everything, white shoes, and smoked great big cigar. He was a little guy, about five foot tall. And, oh, gosh, he was obnoxious. This is Japanese from Japan.

Off camera: Would you describe that situation again? I remember when I was talking to you last year, you talked about, I don't remember how old you were, but could you just describe that situation in a nutshell again?

ET: I was fifteen years old at the time. And there was no doubt about it, all the documentation says I'm a citizen of the United States, and my dad was in the business, and fairly well-known. And about the third day, I just couldn't stand it because I was in with quite a number of Chinese. I think it was about eight of 'em, and they were in twenty-five to forty-five and that age area. And I was fifteen years old, and I felt very uncomfortable in that. And it's absolutely I have never been in places like that. Right in the middle of the room was the toilet. You have to go to the toilet if you have to, right in front of everybody else. And you're treated like a prisoner. To do that to fifteen years old, to me, it was a cruel thing to do. So I told the guy, said, "Why don't you just forget the whole thing? Send me back, send me back to Japan." Anything could be better than this. And it was a bad situation. So I would never let go, I made a criticism of that immigration. Since then, immigration got a little better.

<End Segment 13> - Copyright © 2004 Densho. All Rights Reserved.