Densho Digital Archive - Fred Oda Interview

<Begin Segment 1>

TI: Okay, so, Fred, we're going to start. So today is Wednesday, November 19, 2008, and we are doing an interview with you in Kizuka Hall in Watsonville. Running the camera is Dana Hoshide.

FO: Dana.

TI: Dana. And I'm the interviewer, Tom Ikeda. And so Fred, let's start off, and can you just tell me when and where you were born?

FO: I was born in 1923 in Watsonville, California, by a Japanese midwife.

TI: By any chance, do you know the name?

FO: Yeah, Mrs. Enomoto.

TI: Now was that a pretty common thing, to be...

FO: Yeah, those days, yeah.

TI: And when you said you were, you had a midwife, so were you born at your family's home?

FO: Home, yeah.

TI: Okay. And where was that home located?

FO: It's 186 Main Street.

TI: And was that pretty much where the Japanese community was?

FO: Yeah, that's... well, they used to call it Chinatown, but the Chinese, Japanese, and later the Filipinos.

TI: Oh, so that's interesting. They called it Chinatown because before the Japanese, did the Chinese live there?

FO: Yeah.

TI: So both, they were there before and...

FO: Well, before, the Chinese used to live near where city hall was now, but they chased them across the bridge, yeah. [Laughs]

TI: And you say "they chased them," who chased the Chinese across the bridge?

FO: Well, you know, the Caucasian people. Then Mr. Porter, he had a ranch over there, and he told them, "Come to my place," so Chinatown was formed on Porter Avenue, or Porter Street, I guess.

TI: Oh, that's interesting. So why did Mr. Porter do that?

FO: Well, I guess he was a good-hearted man. Then after that, the Chinatown caught fire so they came back, back to town again. Lower Main, just nearby the river, and that's where they started, and the Japanese settled in there, that area.

TI: Okay. That's interesting, I didn't know about that. So when you were born, what was the name given to you at birth?

FO: Utaka.

TI: And then the spelling's a little bit interesting, it's U-T-A-K-A, Utaka.

FO: [Laughs] I don't know on my birth certificate how it's written.

TI: Okay. And then siblings. Do you have brothers and sisters?

FO: Yeah, two brothers...

TI: Let's do it in order. Let's start with your oldest, I guess, sister.

FO: Yeah, my sister Jean.

TI: And she was born in 1921?

FO: Yeah, someplace there.

TI: And then you were number two, and you were born in 1923. And then after you, who was next?

FO: John. I don't know when he was born.

TI: I think 1926 was John. And then after John was...

FO: Jack.

TI: Jack, and he was born in 1927. And then after Jack you had Jane.

TI: Jane, and she was born in 1936. So there are two, four, five kids.

FO: Yeah, five.

<Begin Segment 2>

TI: So let's go back and talk a little bit about your dad. What was your father's name?

FO: Tokuzo.

TI: And do you know where in Japan he was from?

FO: I'm not too sure, but could be Yamagata.

TI: And do you know anything about the family, like what kind of work they did or anything like that?

FO: Yeah. I think my dad, they had forest land in Japan, that's what I understand, forest. My mother's, I guess, they were pharmacists.

TI: And so was your mother kind of from the same area?

FO: Yeah, she's from Hiroshima, too.

TI: And what was your mother's name?

FO: Toku.

TI: Okay, so let's go back to your father a little bit. So why did your father come to America?

FO: Well, that's it. I always thought the Issei, lot of 'em came because they were the second-born son, and the first soon really take over the family deal. But I found out that a lot of 'em came because there was a draft going on. [Laughs] Was it the Russian War?

TI: Right, the Russian War was going on.

FO: But I don't know why he came. [Laughs]

TI: So that was, so was he the first born or was he the second born?

FO: I guess he must have been the first born, yeah.

TI: I have to make a note because I found the same thing about my grandfather, that he was a first born. And I asked my dad, "So why did he come?" and he said to avoid the draft also. So I thought that was interesting.

FO: The younger brother was, I guess, a politician in Japan, in the village where they lived. So that's where the rub came in between my father and mother, because he had to keep sending money back to politics. [Laughs]

TI: Okay, so when he was in the United States making money, he would send it back to the family, and he would complain because, or your mom would complain because you were supporting a politician?

FO: No, my father's brother was a politician, so he had to send money back to help him, I guess.

TI: But your mother didn't like that, okay. And so he came to the United States...

FO: Well, he went to Hawaii first.

TI: Okay, talk about that. So what did he do in Hawaii?

FO: He worked in a, I guess, probably a sugar cane. Then after that, he came to San Jose, California. Then from there...

TI: Well, in San Jose, what did he do in San Jose?

FO: He was working in a packing company, I guess, fruit packing.

TI: Okay, and so Hawaii, then San Jose, and then after San Jose?

FO: Then he came to Watsonville, yeah.

TI: And what did he do in Watsonville?

FO: He was a barber.

TI: And do you have a sense about what time he came to Watsonville?

FO: It must have been around... let's see. The Buddhist church celebrated the 100th anniversary last year, and he was already here.

TI: Okay, so that would have been 1907, would have been a hundred years.

FO: Yeah. So he must have been here about 1904 or someplace around there maybe, because he was here before the San Francisco earthquake.

TI: Good, okay, that's a good timeline. Because 1906, I think, was the earthquake.

FO: So he was here before that, yeah.

TI: Okay. And then right away, he became a barber?

FO: Yeah, from what I understand, another Japanese barber sold him the shop, yeah.

TI: Okay, so he started a business. Now, my understanding is that he had a first wife.

FO: Yeah, he lost his first child and he lost his wife, yeah.

TI: So how did he meet his first wife? Do you know who she was and how they first met?

FO: No. That was probably arranged by the family in Japan, probably. I don't know.

TI: And do you know how this first wife died, and this first child?

FO: No, I don't know about that.

TI: Are they, are they buried in Watsonville?

FO: Yes, yes.

TI: And do you know where they're buried?

FO: No, let's see. I just, no, I don't think she is buried here in Watsonville. But then the funeral here and I don't know if they sent the ashes back or what.

TI: Okay, so that must have been a difficult time for your father.

<Begin Segment 3>

TI: So while we're talking about your dad, describe, then, what was he like? What were some of the things he liked to do?

FO: Well, he wanted to be an artist. He was, he liked, you know, like shakuhachi, he used to play shakuhachi, and he used to do penmanship, writing, what do they call it? Fude. (Also haiku and bonsai).

TI: Well, that's interesting, go back, so the shakuhachi, it's that bamboo flute.

FO: Bamboo flute, yeah.

TI: Did you ever hear him play?

FO: Oh, yeah. He used to practice at home, and we used to dread it when they had that Japanese, what do they call it, New Year's party and stuff, and you got to go in the front and play. [Laughs]

TI: And why would you dread the...

FO: Well, you know, pull a boner or something, you know. They used to have a shakuhachi club. Maybe about ten people, I guess, and women, a few women used to play that...

TI: The koto?

FO: Shamisen. Or koto? Is that the long one?

TI: Oh, the shamisen.

FO: Shamisen, yeah.

TI: It's interesting, the shakuhachi now is becoming a more and more popular instrument.

FO: Well, there's a Caucasian in San Francisco, he not only plays it, but he makes it, makes shakuhachi, yeah.

TI: Because my wife tried to actually play the shakuhachi, and it's a really difficult instrument to play. You have to really concentrate and work to master those sounds.

FO: 'Cause there's no reed on the mouthpiece, just a thin...

TI: Yeah. So, in fact, my wife worked for months, and she couldn't even make a sound, because you would have to work really hard, it was really a difficult instrument to play. So your father played the shakuhachi.

FO: Then he used to do the fude, and he liked haiku. Haiku.

TI: And so going back, in Japan, did he, what kind of education did your father have?

FO: I never did inquire about those things. [Laughs]

TI: Because this is a little unusual to come across an Issei man that...

FO: Yeah, this morning had a picture in the local paper featuring an old-time Watsonvillian, and they showed him playing tennis, playing tennis in those days.

TI: So that's unusual, too, who would he play tennis against? Other Isseis?

FO: Well, with some other Japanese, yeah. Got a picture of him with his partner, you know.

TI: Wow. Do you have that photograph?

FO: Yeah.

TI: And what was he wearing when he played tennis?

FO: Well, I guess, I don't know what kind of clothes they wore in those days. (Narr. note: white shirt and pants.) But they had the picture in that Buddhist Church centennial booklet, yeah.

TI: So he played the shakuhachi, he did haiku poetry, he played tennis, what were some of the other things he enjoyed doing?

FO: Huh?

TI: What else did he like to do?

FO: Well, like I said, he practiced penmanship, he'd get the black ink-like thing, and they scrape it and make their own ink.

TI: And so would he do these scrolls and things like that?

FO: Yeah, yeah, practice, yeah.

TI: Now, do you have any of those left, of your father's writings?

FO: No. But I have a bunch of scrolls that he brought from Japan, and one person told me I should have an expert look at it because pretty old stuff, you know.

TI: Yeah, you should. Some of that could be really valuable. So what about some other Japanese cultural traditions like tea or anything like that? Did he do kind of things, too?

FO: Yeah, he had a set of that ocha-yu, stuff. I don't know if he had it.

TI: So that would be the more traditional tea ceremony?

FO: Yeah. Ocha no yu, they called it, or something.

TI: And when would he do all this?

FO: Huh?

TI: When would he practice all these different things?

FO: At home, yeah.

TI: So after work, he would come home and do this?

FO: Yeah. Well, most of the businesspeople those days had the business in the front and they lived in the back. Or either that, or lived upstairs, yeah. No commuting like nowadays. [Laughs]

TI: So was that the way your dad was? Did you guys live at the barber shop?

FO: Yeah, in the back, yeah.

<Begin Segment 4>

TI: So describe the barber shop for me. What, so in the front, how many chairs did your dad have in the barber shop?

FO: He had two chairs, but he just worked by himself. He had a few helper once in a while, yeah, but mostly by himself.

TI: And how large was that front room with the chairs?

FO: It wasn't all that big, maybe twelve feet by twenty feet maybe, yeah.

TI: And is it kind of like the traditional, in the front, was there, like, a barber pole?

FO: Yeah, yeah. In fact, I still have that barber pole. It's a wooden barber pole, wooden one, sitting there.

TI: That's, and so is it painted, like, red and white?

FO: Yeah, red, white a blue, yeah.

TI: And on the front, what was the name of the barber shop?

FO: Oh, I guess he just went by his name, I guess.

TI: So like Oda or something like that?

FO: Yeah, probably. Let's see now...

TI: And was it again, like I look at those pictures of barber shops, was it like a big mirror?

FO: Yeah, a big mirror in the front, in the back, yeah, in the back.

TI: And then what, and so a barber shop, what were the services that your father would do at the barber shop?

FO: Haircut and shave, yeah.

TI: And were there any other things like baths?

FO: Yeah, yeah. They had bath, too. My mother used to have bath for the working people, yeah.

TI: Okay. So in the front, you would have the barber shop area, and then there'd be like a back room?

FO: Yeah, for bath, yeah.

TI: And how many baths would there be back there?

FO: Had two tubs and two showers, I guess.

TI: And so you say two tubs, so were these like those old, like bear claw, those big tubs?

FO: Yeah, yeah, they had that type. Big tub, yeah.

TI: And then that would be something your mother would sort of take care of? She would heat the water and get the baths ready?

FO: Yeah.

TI: Good. And going back to your father, you talked about him wanting to be an artist. It sounds like in some ways, he was an artist already, with the poetry. Personality-wise, how was he?

FO: Huh?

TI: What was his personality like? Was he a talkative person?

FO: No, no. [Laughs]

TI: And so I always think of barbers, though, because when they're cutting hair, so was he a pretty quiet man or did he talk about things?

FO: Well, I don't know about that. [Laughs]

TI: I always think of barbers, they talk about politics or they talked about different things because, with their customers. But personality-wise, your dad was pretty quiet?

FO: Well, I guess he carried a conversation, yeah, that part.

<Begin Segment 5>

TI: So let's now talk about your mother. Your mother, so you mentioned that she was from the Hiroshima area.

FO: Yeah, she was from the city, yeah.

TI: The city.

FO: That's why, her mother was killed in the atomic blast, yeah. So they lived in the city.

TI: So let's talk about that a little bit. So when your family found out that Hiroshima was bombed, how did your mother find out about the death of, I guess, your grandmother?

FO: I guess through letter, I guess.

TI: But it must have been very frightening when you heard about the bombing at Hiroshima because your family was there.

FO: I was working in the apple drier that Sunday. We were listening to the radio while we were working, and they said Pearl Harbor attacked.

TI: Oh, Pearl Harbor. We'll get to that a little bit later. And so your mother's family lived in the city, and you mentioned that they were pharmacists?

FO: Yeah, well, dealing in medicine, I guess. I don't know what they called it there.

TI: And do you remember your mother's maiden name?

FO: Toku Fujisaka.

TI: Fujisaka. And how did your mother and father meet?

FO: Well, I guess it must have been family arranged, I guess.

TI: Like a baishakunin?

FO: Yeah, I don't know.

TI: Because at this point, your father's first wife had died, and so did your father go back to Japan, or do you know how they made that arrangement? Or was she sent over as a "picture bride"? Do you know how that worked?

FO: I think their case, I think it was family arranged. Unfortunately, I'm not too sure. [Laughs]

TI: And how about the age difference? Were they about the same age, or was your father older than your mother?

FO: Oh, yeah. Mostly men, anyway, were older.

TI: About how much older do you think your father was?

FO: Maybe about six, seven years maybe.

<Begin Segment 6>

TI: Okay, so let's now talk about you a little bit more. So you were born in 1923, and what are some early memories that you have growing up in Watsonville?

FO: Well, like I said, it was depression time, so we had to cook up our own entertainment. Just play marbles and Cut the Pie, and stuff like that. Get the willow stick, and play that, PeeWee we called that. (Narr. note: We also played Kick the Can, Hide and Seek, and played with bottle milk cover. Toss the cover on the ground and the opponent had to cover part of it to win. For Cops & Robbers, we made a rifle out of wood with a clothespin for a trigger, and tire tube for bullets. On New Year's Eve, we went to the park and selected a leader to lead us for the scramble night in Chinatown. The merchants and gambling dens would toss pennies on the sidewalk for us to fight over. We made enough for us to gamble the next day tossing the penny against a building to get closest to win. It was mostly Japanese, Chinese, and Spanish kids.)

TI: Now, when you said Cut the Pie, is that a game?

FO: Yeah, especially wintertime, when the ground was soft, we'd make a circle. Then we'd throw the knife and we'd cut it, and you can't get your foot in there, then you lost. [Laughs]

TI: Okay, so it was kind of like, then, it's a knife skill game, that you would try to get smaller and smaller, and then the winner would be the last one who could get their foot into that pie. And who were your playmates, when you had all these games?

FO: Kids that grew up in town, yeah.

TI: Were they all Japanese?

FO: Yeah.

TI: And so tell me about, like, the Japanese neighborhood, your friends. Like how many friends did you have that you ran around with?

FO: Oh, there must have been around ten, fifteen, I guess, yeah. They all had businesses in town.

TI: So these were, I mean, like the sons of people that...

FO: Yeah, sons of businesspeople.

TI: And what were some of the names of your friends? When you say ten, fifteen, what were just a few of the names of some of your better friends?

FO: That's one thing my wife was surprised when she married me, she said, "Gee, the people around here sure got funny nicknames." [Laughs]

TI: So better yet. Give me the, we love nicknames, what are some of the nicknames?

FO: Well, we used to have a guy called Pinhead.

TI: Okay, Pinhead.

FO: Jughead.

TI: Jughead.

FO: Slug.

TI: Slug.

FO: What else was there? I can't think of who else did we have... nickname. (Narr. note: Also Hump, Sugar, Bonehead.)

TI: Now, why would someone have the nickname Slug?

FO: Huh?

TI: Why would you give a nickname Slug?

FO: I don't know why. The Japanese name was Kasuto, but Slug? Oh, yeah, Soup, a guy called Soup.

TI: And do you know why they called him Soup? I'm always curious how they --

FO: I think his Japanese name was probably Suyeo or something.

TI: Or Pinhead. Why did you get a nickname like Pinhead?

FO: I guess he had a small head, I guess. [Laughs]

TI: Good, okay. So we have more names for our, we have this list of Nisei nicknames, and I think we have some new ones here. This is good. But they never gave you a nickname?

FO: No.

TI: And when you have these nicknames, how would the nicknames come about? I mean, who would give someone a name?

FO: I don't know how it comes about. There are some more funny names, just don't come to my mind now.

TI: Well, maybe it'll come when we talk more about some of the things you did.

<Begin Segment 7>

TI: So you mentioned, there's a group of you, mostly, like, sons of the business owners. Now, were there activities that you would do, like go on hikes or go out into the woods or anything, or the river, things like that?

FO: Yeah, we used to go down to the river and swim. To this day, my brother says, "It's sure a wonder we didn't get sick," because upstream, the creek, there's a slaughterhouse, and all that stuff comes down.

TI: And you'd be swimming just in that same water?

FO: Yeah, by there. And we used to have what they called first hole, second hole, third hole, depending on how the water was that time of the year. You know, as it gets shallow, we'd go to another place where there's more water.

TI: Oh, because the first hole would be too warm or something?

FO: No, that's the closest one from town.

TI: Oh, I see.

FO: And then as the river goes down, we'd go upstream or second hole, third hole.

TI: Oh, so when the river was higher, then you would go to the first hole, because that was more convenient there.

FO: Yeah. And the stream used to come right there.

TI: And how far would you have to go to these different holes? Like first hole, second hole, third hole...

FO: Oh, about maybe quarter of a mile, I guess, maybe.

TI: And so when you would do a, kind of a swimming outing, would this be, like for all day? You would go down to the river and swim...

FO: Yeah, well, not all day. Afternoon, I guess, because I think we all swam naked in those days, too. [Laughs] I don't think we had swimming suits.

TI: So you guys didn't have swimming suits, you guys just... it sounds like a --

FO: Then after we'd get through, we'd make a little fire and we'd go in the orchard and get apple and have roast apple. Or later, if the corn season, we'd get some corn and have roast corn.

TI: And so you'd just do this by the riverside right there?

FO: Yeah.

TI: And how many boys would be down there at the same time?

FO: Oh, maybe about ten, ten guys. Maybe less than that.

TI: And were they all about the same age, or was there kind of a...

FO: Yeah, about same age, yeah.

TI: It's kind of interesting in terms of the timing. Was there, like every -- what am I trying to say? Like a, was there a mini baby boom in terms of how many kids there were at your age? There seemed to be like a lot of kids your age, or was that true for every age group? If you looked at kids maybe four or five years younger, was there the same number of kids, Japanese kids? And in the same way, like four or five years older, was there about the same number of Japanese kids? Or did your age group --

FO: Well, you figure 1941 high school graduating class had the most Japanese.

TI: Yeah, this is what I was trying to get at. It seemed like it was --

FO: And I figure that because most of the "picture brides" came around 1920s, around there. So they came and started getting babies. [Laughs] So around that era, lot of kids were born.

TI: Okay, so there was probably a rush because the immigration stopped in 1924, so the early 1920s, there were a lot of "picture brides" that came.

FO: Yeah.

TI: And you're saying then a lot of kids were born in the early '20s, which would have made them all high school graduates in 1941, and that was the highest number.

FO: Yeah.

TI: So for Watsonville, there were lots of kids your age to play with.

FO: Yeah.

TI: That's good. That's interesting how sometimes when you have things like those laws or whatever, how they influence things like birthrates.

FO: Because yeah, after the war, the called them the baby boomers, huh?

TI: Right, exactly. It's a similar thing where...

FO: World War II.

TI: ...lot of people were born right after World War II.

<Begin Segment 8>

TI: Let's talk a little bit about the business district. You talked about how you played with lots of the boys whose parents had businesses.

FO: Well, back in the '30s, I remember there used to be one side of Main Street, east side of Main Street, east side, from the river, which was the lowest of the lower Main. There was a Japanese grocery, soda fountain, and a pool hall run by Mr. Kokka. And then I remember a laundry, they used to call that Tokyo Laundry, that was run by Mr. Matsuoka and Mr. Ide, I guess it was.

TI: And were most of these businesses run by, you mentioned the men, did they have wives also?

FO: Yeah, yeah.

TI: And usually the kids, so you were running around with the kids.

FO: Yeah. Then, let's see. There used to be... see, I'm talking about, this is the old days, you know, the real old days, back in the '30s. There used to be, my dad had a barber shop, then next door used to be a Japanese grocery store. (Narr. note: There was also Utsunomiya restaurant and Kozeni shoe shop.)

TI: And the grocery store next to your dad's barber shop, what was the name of that grocery store?

FO: It's Yamashita. It's still in the Watsonville area, run by Yamashita. Then there used to be another barber shop by Mr. Nakata, yeah. Then there used to be a photography, portrait, Mr. Jimura, Mr. Jimura.

TI: And all these businesses you're talking about, who would the clients be? Who would use these stores? Was it mostly Japanese or was it...

FO: Well, it's everybody, I guess.

TI: So everybody meaning you get a lot of Caucasians coming down?

FO: Yeah, yeah. Well, I didn't know Caucasians...

TI: The Chinese?

FO: Chinese.

TI: Filipinos?

FO: Yeah, Filipinos later. Those days, there weren't that many.

TI: And then geographically...

FO: Then --

TI: Oh, go ahead.

FO: On the west side of Main Street, I remember (Uyeda restaurant and) Matsuda Drug Store. Then his father had an insurance company, Mr. Matsuda, yeah. Then I remember Mrs. Morimune had a tofu shop. Let's see... Kawaguchi had a restaurant, and (Takata) had a grocery store. And Yamaguchi -- Yamauchi had a tofu shop, yeah, tofu/grocery. They used to go around the country in a truck selling things. (Narr. note: I also remember Enomoto shoe shop, Iwami barbershop, Torigoe sporting good, and Suezaki Grocery. On First Street was Sugidono garage, Hayashi boarding, Dr. Koda. On Van Ness Street was Sugiyama grocer, Matsushita gas station.)

TI: Oh, to the farmers?

FO: Farmers, yeah.

TI: So it was kind of like a delivery service.

FO: Then there was, on Union Street, there was an Aramaki, there was a grocery store and tofu, and they used to go around the country selling things. (There was also Dr. Ito, dentist, Hashimoto party food, Arita bath, and Madokoro candy and manju.)

<Begin Segment 9>

TI: So describe what, I'm thinking like a weekend, like a Saturday afternoon, when the farmers would come to town. What did this area look like? Was it pretty crowded, were lots of people walking around? How would you describe that?

FO: Yeah, because those days, people lived out on the farm, they used to come into town once a week, I guess, you know, grocery shopping and banking, hair cut and stuff like that. It's not like nowadays. [Laughs]

TI: And would they come usually on the weekend, like on a Saturday or Sunday, or was it during the week they would come? When would be the busiest day?

FO: I guess Saturday would be.

TI: And so describe that. When you think of the streets, I mean, how crowded or how many people would be around?

FO: It's a small town, it can't get that crowded. [Laughs]

TI: But like the barber shop, was it pretty busy?

FO: More activity, yeah.

TI: So would people be waiting to get their hair cut?

FO: Yeah, because, well, not only that, but I think those days, lot of shops or stores stayed open pretty late at night, give the worker a chance. Because they used to work sunup to sundown those days. Not this eight hour stuff nowadays.

TI: So was that true of your dad's barbershop, that sometimes he would open up at night?

FO: Oh, yeah, he stayed open nights, yeah.

TI: And when I think about --

FO: Grocery stores, too, they stay open at nights. In those days, small grocery store had a chance to do business because they used to do a lot of business at night and on Sundays. But nowadays, even the big chain stores, they're open nights and Sundays and holidays, so pretty rough.

TI: Well, that's why I was wondering about the competition, because it seemed like there was lots of overlap. There were, like, multiple barber shops, multiple grocery stores, multiple places where you can buy tofu. So did people shop around, or like, for instance, the barbershop, would the same customers always come back to your dad, and other customers would go to, like, the Nakata barbershop and things like that?

FO: Yeah.

TI: And would your dad ever try to convince other people from another barbershop to come to his place?

FO: It's all how the customer feels, huh?

TI: And so if someone got a bad haircut, would they switch barbershops sometimes?

FO: Oh, yeah, naturally. [Laughs] My dad was quite a master barber. I couldn't live up to him.

TI: Oh, that's interesting. So do you think he was like the best barber?

FO: Yeah, he was really good, yeah.

TI: And so how would his customers be different from, say, the other barbershops?

FO: Well, he had, you know, professional clientele and stuff like that.

TI: Oh, so your dad got more of the professionals that wanted a better haircut. Interesting. And again, do you think that came more from --

FO: Well, he's an artist.

TI: He's an artist, right.

FO: Creative, so...

TI: And so did your dad, you know, I think about when I go to barbershops today, or hair salons, they have those different style books because the hairstyles keep changing.

FO: No, they didn't have those things.

TI: But did your dad ever stay up with the styles? As hairstyles changed, would he kind of adapt and do the newer hairstyles and things like that, or would he always give the same?

FO: Well, those days, yeah, they didn't have stuff like that, stylists like nowadays. He even used to cut women's hair, yeah.

TI: Oh, he did? I've never heard, that's a little unusual.

FO: Yeah.

TI: And so he was able to do that, and what --

FO: I wouldn't say a lot of women, but a few women, I think.

TI: And these were Japanese?

FO: Huh?

TI: Were they Japanese?

FO: Japanese, yeah.

TI: And who would they be? Would they be more, again, the wives of professionals, or who would get haircuts?

FO: No, well, most of the women, they go beauty shop. But this lady, she used to come to him.

TI: Yeah, usually, in most interviews I've done, they'll have the beauty salons for women and then the barbershops for men. I don't hear too many of the women going to barbershops.

<Begin Segment 10>

TI: Okay, so going back to, like, the Saturdays when people are there, did a lot of the kids of the farmers...

FO: Oh, they used to look forward to it, they'd tell me.

TI: So they'd be about your age, I'm thinking about the ones your age that would come to town.

FO: Well, the kids, the father would buy 'em ice cream or something like that, big treat. Then even like they go China-meshi and stuff like that. I guess Seattle's the same way? Folks come into town and go China-meshi.

TI: And sometimes when I've heard these stories, sometimes there might be some tension between the town people and the farming kids?

FO: Oh, yeah, we used to have that tension.

TI: And so what would happen when -- what kind of tension would there be?

FO: I guess the country people figure the town people act big or think they're better or something, I guess, I don't know. That's the attitude I figured they had.

TI: Well, was that sometimes true? Did the...

FO: Well, just like religion. Before, Christians and Buddhists were cats and dogs. [Laughs] Then after the war, no problem, but before...

TI: So before the war, the people who went to the Buddhist church, and then sometimes had tension with the Christian church people. And when you say they were like cats and dogs...

FO: Yeah, when they have sports, you know.

TI: Okay, so it's like sports teams, so you have the Buddhist team...

FO: When they'd play baseball against each other, or basketball.

TI: Well, so did you ever have sports teams between, like the city folks against the farming?

FO: No, no.

TI: Were there ever fights between the farmers and the city folks?

FO: Not that I know of. [Laughs]

TI: Yeah. Because we talk about it because, yeah, I talked to some farming people, and they would say, yeah, city people would, they'd be a little, they thought they were better because they were, sometimes they had better education, they talked better, and then so they felt that the city folks looked down on them. And a lot of times, the city folk did. So I was just curious if that happened in Watsonville, too.

FO: Same world over, I guess, huh?

TI: Yeah, it is, it's always kind of like whenever you have a difference, I think, where people think... there's always, they use that divide whether it's religion or where you live, sometimes, to kind of take sides against each other.

<Begin Segment 11>

TI: Let's talk about some of the, you talked about, with your friends, just playing and, like, swimming and different games. How about things like organized sports? Did you, did the community have things like judo or kendo and things like...

FO: Yeah, I did kendo.

TI: Okay, so talk about that. Where did you do the kendo and who was the instructor?

FO: Well, like kendo, there was a big Japanese hall, they used to call it Toyo Hall. It was a big barn-like building, you know. And those days, they didn't have heat, and we used charcoal for heat. They used to have a big bucket, and had hibachi-like heat upstairs and downstairs. But good thing there was a big barn-like, otherwise, the darn gas from that smoke would get you.

TI: Yeah, that would be pretty dangerous, if you had charcoal heaters inside.

FO: Oh, that's how a lot of people die nowadays, they live in trailer house and try to use charcoal to heat up the trailer house, poison gas. Like I told you, that hall was like a barn, great big old building with the sun coming through some cracks.

TI: Oh, that's interesting, especially if you do kendo, which is like an exercise, and you need more oxygen, I would think that sometimes you would get a little lightheaded with all the charcoal.

FO: No, we didn't have it when we did kendo practice and stuff, but just when they have movies and stuff like that, yeah.

TI: So the Toyo Hall was, that's how they heated.

FO: Then I noticed the Japanese, they want people to donate. So when you donate, they have a big piece of sheet, and they write your name down, I guess, how much you donated, and they plaster it on the wall. [Laughs]

TI: I think they still do that today with the new buildings. They have now, not pieces of paper, but then they have, like, little plaques.

FO: People will donate so much, yeah.

TI: Plaques engraved and things like that. So tell me more about kendo. Who was the instructor, how many other --

FO: Kendo was, it was Mr. Yamamoto, I guess, was his name, elderly Issei. Then after we had Takata, Herbert Takata, I guess, was his name. He came back from Japan and he trained in Japan, and he was rough, boy. [Laughs] That old man, he may be gentle, but when Herbert took over, well, he meant business.

TI: And did you guys have the full equipment?

FO: Oh, yeah. We burned all that up, though, Pearl Harbor time.

TI: Oh, interesting. So after the bombing of Pearl Harbor...

FO: Yeah, you know, they said Japanese magazine, that's why every Japanese backyard, you see smoke. They were burning up.

TI: So who, so when you burned all the kendo equipment, did you help do that or did the instructors do that? Who burned...

FO: We, you know, every family, they had their own, you know, equipment. So I don't know what the other families did, but...

TI: And kendo in particular, because it was more of a, kind of a... what's the right word? Martial art, I guess, in terms of...

FO: Yeah. That's why when the FBI, they picked up lot of these martial art people and schoolteachers, and anybody that had anything to do with Japanese.

TI: That's interesting. Yeah, so you had your own kendo equipment, but then it was all burned in '41.

FO: Yeah.

TI: How about other organized sports? So you mentioned kendo.

FO: Yeah, Watsonville had a good baseball team those days, yeah. They used to play these college teams from Japan, they'd come, and they used to play these semi-pro teams from San Francisco.

TI: And were you a baseball player?

FO: No, I was too young, those days.

TI: So did any of your friends play or they were all too young?

FO: They were all too young. I'm talking about the older, older Nisei, yeah.

TI: But even though you were too young to play on those teams, did you and your friends play baseball?

FO: Yeah. Well, a pickup team, you know.

TI: So why was it that the Niseis, the older Niseis, had a more organized, like, semi-pro team?

FO: Well, the Issei backed them up. And each town had a team, you know, they played each other. Salinas, Watsonville, Monterey, yeah.

TI: And why were the Isseis so interested in baseball? I would think the Isseis would rather promote kendo or judo, but they promoted baseball?

FO: Yeah.

TI: Why do you think that was?

FO: Well, for the kids, I guess, you know, for the kids.

TI: Because the kids like baseball more than the others?

FO: Yeah, just like my cousin in Los Angeles, he grew up downtown Los Angeles, and this American lady saw these Japanese kids running around with no supervision, so she organized a club for them. And her name was Mrs. Oliver. That's why, to this day, there's some of those guys still around yet that belong to the Oliver Club.

TI: And for you, was there anything like that in Watsonville for your age? Like a place or a club for you guys to get together, like a community center? Or was it pretty much just on your own?

FO: Yeah, we were on our own, yeah.

TI: Okay.

<Begin Segment 12>

TI: Well, how about in school, did you do sports? Were there any sports that you did in school?

FO: Well, not in grammar school, but high school, yeah. High school, I ran a little track.

TI: And what event did you do in track?

FO: High jump and hurdles.

TI: So you're not, you're not that tall.

FO: I know it. I chose the craziest thing. I'm short-legged, and I did the hurdles and high jump. [Laughs]

TI: And so you would compete against Caucasians?

FO: Yeah, against each different schools, yeah.

TI: And how would you do against...

FO: [Laughs] Yeah.

TI: But then for high jump, you must have been a good leaper. You probably had a good spring?

FO: Well, that's the whole trouble. Our coach, he was just interested in football, so he never trained us, you know. And I was still doing the old fashioned high jump, then other schools, they were all doing the western roll that was getting popular then.

TI: Oh, so you would do the scissors kind of...

FO: Yeah, scissors, that's right. Yeah. And then they do the western roll, yeah.

TI: And so it was hard for you to compete. Because even though you could jump high, probably, the other guys had better, better technique.

FO: Yeah.

TI: So were you able to, when you saw the other track people doing the western roll, did you ever try to do that?

FO: Yeah, but you've gotta have a coach to teach you, I guess, yeah.

TI: Or else you might get hurt. 'Cause you'd have to, yeah, when you roll, I guess you would fall on your back, and if you didn't do that right, it could be hard. That's good.

<Begin Segment 13>

TI: So let's talk a little bit about schools. Before high school, what were some of the elementary schools you attended?

FO: Well, I went to Linscott school that still exists. Then went to the old grammar school, and then high school. The Linscott school, my daughter went to that school, too. [Laughs]

TI: And so when you went back to it, was the school pretty much the same when you went there? Was the building pretty much the same, the classrooms?

FO: Yeah, building was same, yeah. Everything was the same. But now that school is a charter school now, yeah.

TI: And how would you, when you think of your kids' education versus what you got, how would you compare the two? I mean, how good was your education?

FO: I think our generation teachers were more dedicated, I think, yeah.

TI: And why do you say that? What kind of things did they do that you thought made them more dedicated than your children's teachers?

FO: I don't know, because sometime when I talk to my daughters, I'm surprised that they didn't learn that at school. [Laughs]

TI: So you, you thought you got a pretty good education, then, that your teachers were good teachers?

FO: Yeah, they were more dedicated, to me, I think.

TI: Earlier you talked about how your graduating class was the largest, had the largest number of Japanese Americans. Do you have a sense of roughly what percentage of the total class was Japanese when you were going to school? So was it like a tenth of the students, or was it half of the students? Do you have a sense of what percentage?

FO: Probably about, maybe about a fifth, maybe.

TI: And in general, how did the students do? So you're about twenty percent of the class.

FO: Well, naturally, we feel, whatchamacallit, left out, sort of. Well, there were a lot of Japanese people that belonged to different clubs, and were active in this and that, but it depended on the person, I guess. [Laughs] Like we lived in town, so we just went to school just when we had to go to school. Soon as the bell rang, we're out and that's it. [Laughs]

TI: Earlier you mentioned a mutual friend of ours, (Katashi Oita), that was a valedictorian. In general, did the Japanese do well in school in terms of grades?

FO: Oh, yeah.

TI: And so was it common for the valedictorian to be Japanese?

FO: Well, those days, Issei pounded education into their kids' head. Because, and another thing, too, that's the only way they could advance. My sister was a salutatorian. But I -- [laughs] -- I just didn't care too much for studies.

TI: So your, was it your older sister that was a salutatorian?

FO: Yeah.

TI: Did your mother and father emphasize education, though?

FO: Oh, yeah. But I didn't have faith. That was my whole problem, because I saw the Nisei ahead of me went to college, they ended up working in fruit stand in Los Angeles because of discrimination. And well, depression time, too, so there wasn't that much job possibility for minorities, yeah. In fact, those days, the Nisei were told, "Don't go into that field. You won't get a job," stuff like that. So if I had faith, I would just disregard that and went ahead anyway. But I didn't have that faith, yeah.

TI: That's well said, thank you.

FO: Like my sister, those guys, she ended up a registered nurse, and two of my brothers ended up pharmacists, yeah.

TI: So if you looked at the older Niseis, so they weren't able to get jobs. But it sounds like your sister and your brothers, they did pretty well in school, went on and got college degrees, and then they did that. So do you ever have regrets that you didn't try harder in school?

FO: [Laughs] Well, I figured I'm stewing in my own juice. I asked for it, and I got it. [Laughs]

TI: I like that, "stewing in your own juice."

<Begin Segment 14>

TI: So about what time, what year did you graduate from high school?

FO: Huh?

TI: What year did you graduate?

FO: '41, 1941.

TI: So this is like June 1941, and then I think you mentioned that you got a job at the apple drying?

FO: Yeah, that was that winter that I graduated, yeah, '41.

TI: So tell me a little bit about that job, and what kind of business? I've heard about it from other people.

FO: Well, the apple drier, they dried the apple, and that was the only way to preserve apple those days. But nowadays, they have frozen apple juice, all that stuff. But those days, a woman used to feed the machine, peeler, and there's a tray where a woman cut out the bad part of the apple, it goes in the slicing machine, and lay it on the tray, and they put the tray in a cooker, heater. And at night we go back to work again and scrape all that dried apple on the bottom bin. So those days, I worked ten hours a day, seven days a week.

TI: And how many people were employed by this apple drying...

FO: Oh, must have been about... maybe thirty maybe.

TI: And was this seasonal?

FO: Yeah, seasonal, yeah.

TI: So it was for, like a, how long a period did you have to work?

FO: Just during apple season, yeah.

TI: So that, how long would that be?

FO: Oh, about a couple of months, maybe.

<Begin Segment 15>

TI: So Fred, we're going to now start the second hour of the interview. And so the first hour, we talked about pretty much prewar Watsonville, a little bit about your family, things like that. So for the second hour, I want to start with, so now you're working at the Hiura's apple drying plant. And we talked about it a little bit, but on December 7, 1941, bombing of Pearl Harbor, can you tell me how you heard about the bombing?

FO: Yeah, well, I told you I was working in drying, we had the radio on. And then we heard it on the radio.

TI: And what was the reaction of the people around you?

FO: I couldn't believe it, you know. I realized, the way I look at is that United States wanted to go in war, but Roosevelt said, "I will not send your son to foreign soil," and stuff like that. So they forced Japan to start that war by boycotting their steel import and stuff like that, and made it real hard for them. Because Japan, they have no raw materials, so you import everything, and they made sure that they weren't getting any steel, oil and all that stuff. So Japan had to go war to get it. They went to Indies, Dutch Indies and those place.

TI: Now, was this something that you had thought, at this time, when you were eighteen years old, did you have that? Or was this something that later on you read more about? Or was this kind of what you were thinking?

FO: Yeah, yeah.

TI: So this is what you thought back then?

FO: At that time?

TI: Yeah, at that time.

FO: Yeah, because I read where England, British, they broke the Japanese code, they knew what was happening, this and that. [Laughs]

TI: And so when you look at it, you think a lot of the blame of the start of the war was the American pressure against Japan.

FO: Yeah, economic.

TI: Kind of forcing them into a corner and making it hard for them.

FO: Yeah.

TI: Now, the people around you, so you mentioned there were other people working at this drying plant, did you guys talk about this? Or what kind of words or feelings were going on?

FO: I don't remember about that.

TI: So did you continue working or did they shut the plant down?

FO: Yeah, we worked. Let's see, yeah, because we were rounded up February to go into assembly center, so we didn't work too long.

TI: But I was just thinking, on that day, though, that day, did anything change on that Sunday when you were at work? I mean, it was just a regular work day?

FO: Yeah. I told you we worked seven days.

TI: And so when you returned home...

FO: On the way home, yeah, in those days, any big thing happened, kids would be selling newspaper on the street corners, you know. And, "Hey, Japs bombed Pearl Harbor," and all that, you know. Then it dawned on me, by god, it is a real bombing.

TI: And did you talk with your parents or with your sisters or anything like that about what happened? Did your dad say anything about it?

FO: Well, they figured that we were born and raised here, so we're Americans. Because some Japanese had that dual citizenship. I didn't have that, yeah. So later, when they said they're going to start evacuating the Japanese, I thought, "Oh, yeah, just the folks, you know. But we won't go because we're citizens." [Laughs] Then it was all wrong.

<Begin Segment 16>

TI: So when you eventually heard that you had to go also, how did you feel about that? Because you were a citizen, you had a high school education, so you studied civics and all those things, so you knew about the Constitution. So when they took, when they said that you had to go as a U.S. citizen, how did you feel about that?

FO: Oh, yeah, it burned me up, yeah. We were powerless at that time, so...

TI: So you went along. But before we move to Salinas, what did your father do with the shop? When they found out that you all had to leave, what did the businesses all do?

FO: Yeah, he closed the shop, yeah. Well, he owned the building, so he was able to just close it and the lawyer took care of it. And I guess the lawyer rented it out afterward, yeah.

TI: And when you say "the lawyer," who was your lawyer?

FO: Mr. Murphy. (He was a real estate person.)

TI: And so your dad was able to shut the shop down, did he rent it to someone else, or was it just shut down during the war?

FO: Yeah, he just shut down. I guess Mr. Murphy took care of the rest, yeah. He rented it out, I guess.

TI: Oh, so Mr. Murphy was able to rent the shop.

FO: Yeah.

TI: And with that, your dad got some money from rent during the war?

FO: Yeah, paid for upkeep of the property and stuff like that. Yeah, I didn't realize that until I was reading some of my, when I was cleaning up my sister's stuff, all the correspondence that she had with the lawyer, yeah. The lawyer says something -- no, no, he wasn't a lawyer, but the real estate man. He says, "Gee, right now things are tough," and this and that, and she writes back. And coming back to Watsonville, he said, "Well, at this time, I wouldn't advise you to come back," and stuff like that. All that was going on between my sister and I didn't know nothing about it until I started cleaning up her stuff after she died, you know.

TI: Did you keep those letters? Do you still have those letters?

FO: I didn't. Like a damn fool, I burned everything up.

TI: That's too bad. I would have loved to have seen this. Do you think in general, the lawyers and the real estate people treated your family fairly when you were in camp? And they were taking care of your property, do you think they --

FO: Yeah, they were pretty responsible, yeah.

TI: Okay, that's good.

<Begin Segment 17>

TI: And then, so that's your dad's business, so he was able to close it up, and then have it taken care of. What did you do during those two or three months while, after the bombing of Pearl Harbor and before you left Salinas, were there any...

FO: There was a curfew during those days, yeah. We had to be in before sundown, I guess it was, and people from, living on the west side of Main Street, going toward the ocean, it's five miles, yeah. Those people had to leave their home and move on the west, east side of town, yeah.

TI: And the reason, I understand, is that, so Main Street became kind of this boundary.

FO: Yeah, boundary.

TI: That on the ocean side of, or the west side of Main Street was a restricted area for, especially the Isseis. The Isseis couldn't go on that, in particular.

FO: I think that went with German, Italian, too, probably, yeah. First generation.

TI: And during this time, did you have any incidences or events that affected you personally, like a, was anyone, say anything to you that was derogatory or anything like that? Or were there any acts of kindness that you could remember?

FO: Well, there was, when we had to get ready for evacuation, one Italian guy, he loaned me his truck so I could haul things and stuff like that. Then there were just a lot of other people that helped out. I guess if you read the history of the Japanese deal, that Mrs. Marshall, Dr. Marshall, they really helped lot of the Japanese people. And the son was killed in the Pacific, South Pacific.

TI: That makes it even more extraordinary that people could be so, so generous.

FO: So, let's see, few years ago, they had a reenactment of the evacuation, and they mentioned all the name of the people that, Caucasian that were pro-Japanese here in Watsonville.

TI: And, well, going back to that Italian man who lent you his truck, did he ever say anything to you when he let you use the truck?

FO: Yeah, yeah. He offered it, yeah.

TI: But did he talk about why he was doing it or anything, or what was happening to you? Did he talk about that?

FO: Well, I guess he knows our position because he was a second-generation Italian, so he knows what they're going through. Lot of things you don't say, but you observe and you know, kind of know what's happening.

TI: And how did that make you feel when he let you use the truck?

FO: Well, you realize that there's a lot of good people around yet.

TI: That's good.

<Begin Segment 18>

TI: So eventually you go to Salinas with your family. So what was Salinas like? How would you describe it?

FO: Well, first time I met so many Japanese from different places. [Laughs] Then you find out, just like any other race, there's good and bad. Yeah, you can't say all Japanese are good.

TI: And so what, what are some... do you have any examples of maybe the good side? What would be something good that happened by seeing all these Japanese?

FO: Well, you met all different type of Japanese at that camp. I don't know how true that is, but a rumor that the guy that was contracted by the government to feed us, he was selling a lot of the things black market. So we were fed not too good, you know. So us young guys, I was at the age where I used to eat about four or five bowls of rice a day, I mean, a meal, you know. So we'd go to one mess hall, we eat and line up, and the next mess hall, eat again. [Laughs] We say, "Oh, heck, this is no good." So we got a job as waiters in the mess hall. And then the cooks were mostly Salinas restaurant owners, you know. Some Isseis said, "Oh, eat up, eat up." And another one would say, "Hey, tarando, tarando, there won't be enough, you know. [Laughs] Lot of fun, funny.

TI: Oh, that's good, though. So you intentionally got a job as waiters, you and I guess some of your friends, just so that you could get more food to eat. Because you were always probably hungry. Any other memories from Salinas that you can recall? Any events or anything?

FO: Yeah, I was with Mas's, Mas Hashimoto, one of his sons died in the assembly center.

TI: His older brother, I think.

FO: Huh?

TI: His brother.

FO: Yeah. He got hurt in a baseball game, and we were lying down underneath the barracks, and then we look at his eyes, and they're getting red, you know. Just then a doctor happened to come by, so, "Hey, look at this guy," and it was brain concussion, yeah.

TI: So let's go back. So were you there when he was hit by the, I think he, my understanding was he was hit by a baseball, is that what happened?

FO: No, he collided with another person, I hear.

TI: Okay. And then, so you were with him after that accident, and he was underneath the barracks. And why were you underneath the barracks?

FO: Well, I guess that was the main drag there, and we were just lying underneath there, few of us, I forgot who else was with me. Yeah, that was quite a sad deal.

TI: And you, but noticed his eyes didn't look right, they were red, and you thought that he should see a doctor?

FO: Yeah.

TI: And was he able to see a doctor right away?

FO: Yeah, I think a doctor happened to come by, Dr. Koda, I guess it was.

TI: But then he had a brain injury.

FO: Yeah.

TI: And so was Mas's brother about your age? Were you friends?

FO: Younger, yeah.

TI: Yeah, that was tragic.

<Begin Segment 19>

TI: What are some other activities that happened in Salinas? So there were baseball games, you had to do things like --

FO: Well, we didn't have much time, because we went in February of '42, and we left July the 4th. So just a matter of so many months.

TI: Oh, so that's ironic. So you left on the Fourth of July?

FO: Yeah, then we left on a train, you know, and they had the train all dark, curtain down. My father got sick, and I had to go find a doctor and trip over everybody. Stuff like that really burned me up, you know. We're going through all this, what for? Then once we reached Arizona, it was 120 degrees, and we left here, you know, in this kind of weather. Oh, boy, it's really too much for people around here. So you see guys from around here walking around with a wet towel on their head, they cut their pants, you know, make shorts. Then you see guys from the valley, they're throwing baseball and stuff out in the, football out in the firebreaks. And find out they're from El Centro, out in the desert country, east of L.A. So they could, nothing to them, but for us it was just... [laughs] yeah, drink lot of ice water.

TI: So the people from this climate in Watsonville, which is pretty temperate...

FO: Yeah, Watsonville, Salinas, Santa Cruz.

TI: It was very different, very dry, hot weather, that was hard.

FO: Then the big dust storm that day, and they told us young guys to volunteer to cook. So I went to help in the mess hall, and then we didn't have no pot cover, so I had to walk to another block to borrow one. And by then, those barracks, they didn't have any covering, just wood, it was so dry, there's cracks all between, the dust all came in and that was end of our okai, full of dust. [Laughs]

TI: Oh, because the dust just got into all the food.

FO: Yeah, just come up from underneath. But after that, the government, they laid linoleum on all the barracks and stuff. But then, it's so dry, the cracks.

TI: So that day, when the dust got in the food, then did people just go hungry that day?

FO: I don't know what we ate that day after that. I wonder if they re-cooked again. Gee, that was really something, the dark, you know, and just that dust.

TI: And so when all this was happening, you said that it kind of burned you up. What were you thinking? I mean, in particular, going back, you left on Independence Day, the Fourth of July, and you're, again, a U.S. citizen being taken away, and you did nothing wrong. Were you thinking about these things?

FO: Huh? Well, no, not at that time. But it'll keep building up. Then our block, too, there used to be an amputee, and those days, I mean, in the latrine, toilets, they had no partition. Just all lined up. So you know how you'd feel if you've got a wooden leg and stuff like that. So he has to go late at night when hardly anybody around and stuff like that. Then I understand that lot of these other camps, too, lot of the ladies, they got cardboard and they made their own partition.

TI: And so for many people, the lack of privacy was really difficult, especially in the latrines and showers. Because you hear lots of stories of, yeah, people using the facilities in the middle of the night.

FO: Then another thing, too, is that guy died, too. He died, a person. And that was just so many months when we went in camp, so nothing organized yet. And the funeral was a sad funeral, huh. But later on, the lady folks started making paper flowers and stuff, kind of halfway decent funeral. But stuff like that, it builds up in you.

TI: Oh, so the very first death in the camp, no one, you just weren't prepared for that, to have things.

FO: Yeah. And really sad, yeah.

TI: Now, was this a person from Watsonville that...

FO: Salinas, yeah.

TI: Salinas. And so there was... and so did they have a service with a reverend or something?

FO: Yeah, yeah.

TI: But no, none of the amenities, and that's why later they did flowers.

FO: Yeah.

<Begin Segment 20>

TI: After you got to Poston, a few months later, they came out with the "loyalty oath."

FO: Yeah.

TI: Can you talk about that? What did you think when you got this questionnaire?

FO: Yeah, well, that's where I got in trouble. [Laughs] Because they says, "Will you forswear all allegiance to Japan and swear allegiance to America?" And another question was, "Will you bear arms for America?" And I answered "no-no" to both of them. And the sergeant says, "Son, do you know what you're doing?"

TI: Well, before you go there, why did you answer "no-no"? What were you thinking?

FO: Well, I'll tell you why. Because the sergeant said, "Son, do you know what you're doing?" I said, "Look," I says, "when I registered for the draft, I was classified as 1-A. And then you guys turned around and classified me as 4-C, that's 'enemy alien.'" I said, "What the hell is an 'enemy alien' doing in the U.S. Army? And I got no allegiance to Japan, I never been there," so I left it at that. And they said, "All the 'no-nos' we're going to ship into Tule Lake, we're going to ship 'em to Japan." I got nobody in Japan, I'm not going to Japan, so I had to change it, get a lawyer and change it to "yes-yes."

TI: So you were able to get it changed while you were in Poston?

FO: Yeah, yeah. There's a lawyer from Fresno there and...

TI: And so what did you have to do to get it changed? Was it a hard process?

FO: Yeah, you know, paper I had to sign a bunch of thing. But that's all on my record. Because when I was working back east, FBI comes, looked me up, yeah.

TI: Well, you're probably fortunate that you were able to leave Poston for a job. Because oftentimes they would use that against you and keep you in camp. So when you were in Poston, before you left, what kind of jobs did you have in Poston?

FO: Well, we started a chicken farm there, agricultural department, yeah. (Also worked as a lifeguard at the swimming pool.)

TI: And so what was your job? What did you do at the chicken farm?

FO: Bookkeeping more or less, keeping track of how many feed and how much chicken died and this and that, yeah. And there used to be a man from, I forgot which town he was from. He was an agriculture man, poultry man, so he knew all about those things. And one problem we had was there were a lot of mesquite trees. And the chicken eat the mesquite seed, and it's hard, so hard that the gizzard won't chew it up. So we had to personally just squeeze that seed out of them, yeah.

TI: And did you have to do that sometimes?

FO: No, no. [Laughs]

TI: And so how long were you in Poston before you left?

FO: That I can't recall. I must have been in there about a year maybe.

TI: And going back to the, where you said you sort of got in trouble for going "no-no," did that questionnaire, those questions, did that cause a lot of discussion or turmoil at Poston for you and others? I mean, did you guys talk about it very much?

FO: No. Because nobody knew what you answered. [Laughs] But once they start segregating, then you figure, geez.

TI: Well, because you had yours changed, no one really ever knew very much about how you answered.

FO: Yeah. But the one that was segregated, well, they know that they signed "no-no," yeah.

TI: Did you ever talk to your father about how you should answer the questionnaire?

FO: No, no.

TI: Now about your, your younger brothers? Did they, how did they answer the questionnaire?

FO: They weren't that age, I don't think.

TI: Oh, so they were, you're right, they were three years younger, three, four years younger, so they didn't have to do that.

FO: Yeah, one of my brother, he was a (4-F). He wasn't physically fit. And the other one, he was drafted, yeah.

TI: Okay.

<Begin Segment 21>

TI: So after about a year or so, you were able to leave Poston.

FO: Yeah. They said as long as you stay east of the Rocky Mountains, then Colorado, then the government had relocation centers set up in a lot of the major cities like Chicago, New York, Milwaukee, St. Louis, major cities.

TI: And so where did you go?

FO: I went to Milwaukee.

TI: And why did you choose Milwaukee?

FO: Well, we figured we'd go there and from there we'd drift to Chicago. We never did, we just stayed there. [Laughs]

TI: And so did you go with someone else?

FO: Yeah, three of us, yeah.

TI: And so these were, who were these three? Were they from Watsonville?

FO: Yeah, same block, same block from Watsonville, yeah.

TI: And what kind of jobs did you guys get in Wisconsin, in Milwaukee?

FO: Wartime, I got job as, we got job as a recapping outfit, recapping tires. Because there was tire shortage, rubber shortage, I mean, yeah. So they were recapping old tires.

TI: And so I'm guessing, so did the four of you live together in...

FO: Yeah, three of us, yeah.

TI: Oh, three of you. Three of you. And who were the other two? Do you remember their names?

FO: Yeah, Sam Ogami, he lives in San Mateo now, and Judd Sato, he lives in Berkeley.

TI: Are they both living still?

FO: Yeah, yeah, they're both living.

TI: And so you both, all three of you are Milwaukee. How did people treat the three of you when you got there? As Japanese Americans, was there any discrimination against you because you're Japanese?

FO: Well, that's the funny part. When the Japanese on the West Coast, they said, Japanese, they congregate too much, and they don't socialize. Then when I went back east and same back there. They said, "Oh, that's German town," "Oh, that's Jewish town," "Oh, that's Italian town." You know, the Issei, they congregate because language barrier and discrimination, you know. So I figured, what's the difference when they're talking about Orientals on the West Coast.

TI: Oh, so you thought that was, like, almost unfair that they would criticize the Japanese for their, their tight-knit communities.

FO: Yeah.

TI: But then when you went back east, you saw the exact same thing.

FO: Yeah, the Europeans same thing, yeah. 'Cause of all the economic and lack of speaking the language, and, you know, discrimination.

TI: No, that's a good, good insight. But then the three of you, when you would just kind of walk around Milwaukee, did you ever...

FO: No, it wasn't bad.

TI: Now, were there very many other Japanese Americans?

FO: But still, I think we had a little problem with housing, yeah.

TI: And why do you say that? What were the problems with housing?

FO: Well, they say, "Oh, we just rented it out," and all that stuff.

TI: Okay, so they weren't direct, they didn't say, "We won't rent to you," but they would just say, "Oh, the room is already gone," or something like that. Now, were there other Japanese Americans in Milwaukee?

FO: Yeah, there were a few.

TI: So did you guys ever get together with them?

FO: Yeah, they had a JACL there.

TI: And so would you join the JACL and go to those meetings?

FO: Yeah. No, let's see... was it Japanese group? I wonder if they did call it JACL.

TI: So was it more like social types of things? What kind of things did the group do? Was it like dances?

FO: No, no.

TI: Just more meetings?

FO: Yeah. I wonder if we ever had a meeting. [Laughs]

<Begin Segment 22>

FO: But anyway, one thing was, I guess you're too young to remember Sparky Matsunaga, he was a congressman.

TI: Yes, from Hawaii. Yeah, Sparky Matsunaga from Hawaii.

FO: He gave a speech there that the newspaper had the next day. He had the audience in the palm of his hand and edge of the seat waiting for the next word to come out. And by god, when he went to, he was a second lieutenant in the 442nd then, I mean, 2nd Infantry. But when he went to Congress, old-time Congress guys said, "This is the best speech I've heard since I've been here," when Matsunaga spoke up. And these guys been there, what, thirty years or so, these congressmen. So you could see he's quite a speaker.

TI: And so Sparky came to Milwaukee and gave a talk?

FO: Yeah, to speak, yeah.

TI: And were you there?

FO: Yeah, well, that's when I heard him. That's when I heard him. And I thought to myself, "Gee, I didn't know there was Nisei like this."

TI: And so at that time, he was an officer...

FO: Yeah, lieutenant in the 100th Infantry, I guess.

TI: So before he went to...

FO: He was a guest speaker, yeah. Then after that, he was a congressman.

TI: Do you recall what Sparky was talking about in his speech?

FO: What was the subject now? [Laughs] But then later I found out that he and, whatchamacallit, Inouye, Dan Inouye, they're both Harvard graduates. And they, I guess they majored in English and speech and stuff, too. 'Cause my brother in San Jose, he kids his Hawaiian friends there, "How come you guys can't speak like those guys?" Because the other guys, you know how they talk: "I go, you go," and all that stuff. [Laughs]

TI: Yeah, no, you're right. They're both very eloquent when they speak.

FO: Oh, yeah.

<Begin Segment 23>

TI: So you're in Milwaukee, and eventually you make your way back to the West Coast.

FO: Yeah, well, I got a draft notice for the army, so I had to come back to San Francisco for a physical. Then they declared a draft holiday, so they abandoned the draft, yeah.

TI: Okay, so this must have been around 1949 or so, after the war was over?

FO: Oh, let's see. That was around, yeah...

TI: So it was after the war was ended and you were (not) drafted. Because I did some research, and yeah, the draft holiday was in 1949.

FO: '49? Yeah, it was in there, I guess.

TI: But they got you back to the West Coast, you're at San Francisco, they declare a draft holiday, so what do you do next?

FO: I was working out in the fields, field work, orchard and stuff like that.

TI: This was back in Watsonville?

FO: Yeah. Boy, done some of my hardest work. [Laughs]

TI: So when you come back to Watsonville, you now have been gone for several years, for, well, '49, so you're talking about almost --

FO: There was a Japanese, he was a labor contractor, and he hired Japanese to work.

TI: And you were saying that was the hardest work you've done.

FO: [Laughs] Yeah, me and another guy, we were thinning lettuce, you know, on the short hoe. Reach the end of the line, turn around, you gotta go back again. We thought, "Oh, heck, this is no good. Let's quit." Bunch of ladies working with us, you know, it don't look too good if we quit, and the ladies. [Laughs] So we stuck it out.

TI: So was it just because it was backbreaking work? Just kind of leaning over?

FO: Oh, yeah. They outlawed that short hoe, you know. They use a long hoe, or standing up.

TI: So why, why did people use the short hoe? Was it faster, or why didn't people use the long hoe? What was the difference between the short hoe and the long hoe?

FO: I guess it's closer to the ground, and you got to space the lettuce so far apart, you know, and stuff like that. But now, they space plant the seeds, so they don't have to be that accurate or anything.

<Begin Segment 24>

TI: And in thinking about Watsonville, when you got back to Watsonville, had your dad reestablished his business by then?

FO: Yeah. And before, you talked about how the business was, all the Japanese businesses were, like, on Main Street, in that area.

FO: They didn't come back, a lot of them.

TI: Yeah, so I was going to ask you, so how, what was the difference between before the war in the late '30s, and when you come back in the late '40s?

FO: There were no more Japanese town anymore, because most of them didn't come back.

TI: And where did everyone go?

FO: Huh?

TI: Where did people go?

FO: Well, some of them, they went back east and they stayed back there. Then some of 'em came back, and they all headed to Los Angeles, San Jose.

TI: In general, when you came back in the late '40s, how receptive was the overall Watsonville community for the Japanese to come back?

FO: It was bad; it was bad. Yeah, they wouldn't, some store wouldn't serve them, and the gas station wouldn't sell them gas and all that. It was bad.

TI: And was it still bad when you got back? Because you got back a little bit later.

FO: Yeah, it wasn't that bad then, yeah. Because when they first came back, I heard it was really bad.

TI: And so that was probably the reason why the Japantown never came back, because it was hard for people to come back there?

FO: Well, then a lot of 'em had nothing to come back to, you know what I mean?

TI: Oh, because a lot of the stores may have been leased or something, so they didn't own the stores?

FO: Yeah.

TI: And so about how many Japanese businesses were there when you came back? I mean, you said it was smaller, how much smaller?

FO: Way smaller. Hardly any of them came back.

TI: So was your dad the only barbershop, for instance? There used to be four, I think, before the war.

FO: No, let's see. Yeah, there was two after that.

TI: And like how many grocery stores after the war?

FO: After the war there was two, I guess.

TI: And before the war, there must have been, what, five or six?

FO: Yeah, yeah.

TI: Okay. So it sounds like it was, like, maybe a quarter or a third of the businesses came back. And so you came back to Watsonville, you were working, you mentioned the short hoe, so lettuce thinning, things like that.

FO: Yeah, but see, that was temporary because we were, well, we were doing all different kind of work, you know. We went to work in the lettuce one day, and next time we're picking tomatoes and stuff like that, yeah.

<Begin Segment 25>

TI: And so this, it was, so you did all these sort of temporary farm jobs, it was hard, and so did you continue doing that kind of work, or what did you do next?

FO: Oh, then after that, I went to barber school in San Francisco.

TI: And why did you do that? Was it because you knew that you could work with your father and that was a good business?

FO: Yeah, we had no choice, like I said. No education. [Laughs]

TI: So did your father encourage you to go to barber school, too, did he think that was a good decision?

FO: No, he didn't encourage me, yeah.

TI: Did he try to discourage you? Did he try to tell you not to?

FO: No. Later, he said, "Don't stay in this business too long." [Laughs]

TI: Well, so for you to go to San Francisco to barber school, how would you afford that?

FO: Well, I couldn't. So I was a schoolboy, working for a Jewish family as a houseboy, you know. They had a cook, so I had to serve them meals, you know, they ding, ding, ding the bell.

TI: So that was a way to get room and board?

FO: Yeah, room and board. I got free room and board, and I got few dollars for bus fare.

TI: Okay, so that was your living expenses, that's how you paid for your living expenses.

FO: Yeah. My brother was doing that at (UC) at Berkeley, he was working in the family, and that's, he's the one that found me the job. He says his relative, I mean, his employers' relative looking for somebody in San Francisco, you know. And just about that time I was running out of money.

TI: Oh, so you were able to get a similar job in San Francisco.

FO: Houseboy, yeah.

TI: And was that a, how did you enjoy doing that? Was that hard work to do?

FO: No, just something you just had to do. Because you run out of money and work out conveniently, you know, you work little bit, go to school and come back, work little bit.

TI: Now, when you were in San Francisco, did you take any time to go visit, like, Nihonmachi in...

FO: Yeah. And then get hungry, I used to go to Chinatown and have bowl of noodle, you know.

TI: And so how was that like for you? Going, when you went to Japantown in San Francisco. Because that was still pretty large, wasn't it? There were a lot more Japanese.

FO: Yeah, oh yeah. Because after that, they tore the Japanese town down, so there was no more Japanese there. So to this day, it's no good. They can't make a go of it, the Japanese. So I guess eventually, there won't be no more Japanese town. Because they're talking about tearing it down, I mean, changing it. Like L.A., same thing. But L.A., the Japanese, they bought out most of the people and they really established the Japanese town again. But the population wasn't there because, you know, housing not there, so they were all out in the suburbs. So even the Japanese town in L.A. is going to be no more.

TI: Yeah. And part of that, I think you're right, the Japanese American community is kind of dispersed geographically.

FO: Yeah, dispersed, that's right. Yeah.

TI: They're all over.

<Begin Segment 26>

TI: So you finished barber school in San Francisco, and then you come back to Watsonville. And did you start your own shop or did you work with your father?

FO: No, you got to apprentice, yeah. Apprenticed with him, then I worked with my dad, yeah.

TI: And how was it working with your dad?

FO: Huh?

TI: How was it working with side by side with your father? What was that like?

FO: Well, I guess, I don't know because I never did work some other place. I wouldn't know how the difference in the feeling.

TI: But you had other jobs, you worked at tire, the tire place, and so you had different types of jobs. And now you're, all of a sudden, back in Watsonville working next to your father. Was that a positive experience for you?

FO: I don't think so, because everything's there, so you got no initiative to, you know, rent your own place and stuff like that. So it's an easy setup for me.

TI: Oh, so you're, what I'm hearing is almost, so it was too easy for you, in some ways.

FO: Oh, yeah. Because if I was an average guy, I'd get out and they'd have to find me a job so I could apprentice. And you know how it works, they won't hire you because you haven't got any experience. And how you going to get experience unless you work? And they won't give you a job because you don't have experience. [Laughs] It's a tough go, yeah.

TI: Yeah, so for most guys coming out of barber school, it was pretty rough. But for you, you had a place to...

FO: Yeah, that's what I said, yeah. That's what I said.

TI: And so in some ways, you made it sound like, but that was a bad thing for you, because it was too easy for you?

FO: That's right.

TI: Because you thought if it were harder, you would have learned more?

FO: Yeah, yeah.

TI: That's interesting. And how many years were you able to work with your father? Because eventually he, I think he retired.

FO: Yeah, yeah, he retired.

TI: So how long did you work together?

FO: I guess I worked with him about, I don't know how many years. I never did keep track.

TI: But was it more than, what, five years?

FO: Oh, yeah, yeah, more than that. Because he used to have all this Issei guy come, they play go and shogi and all that stuff.

TI: Oh, so the barber shop was almost like a social place, too. So people would come, and some of the Isseis would hang out there.

FO: Well, the ones that played those things, yeah.

TI: And would they play in the front area or would they be in the back?

FO: Back, yeah.

TI: And so your dad would go back there and play with them, too, if there were no customers?

FO: Yeah. And had a good chance for me to observe the Issei, you know, how they act and stuff, yeah. Some guys, they talk like heck, and soon as he gets through what he has to say, he wouldn't listen to the other guy. [Laughs] And there's other guys that quiet and just listen, you study all kind of characters, yeah.

TI: And did you enjoy that? Did you enjoy kind of watching the Isseis together?

FO: Well, I enjoyed observing people, like barbershop, you get all kind of different customers. Some guys crying all the time, some guys positive, never have a negative attitude, you know. Observe all kind of people, yeah.

TI: Yeah, I'm sure you do. And so after your dad retired, did the same customers just keep coming to you and you just did that?

FO: Yeah. Then I'd lose some, yeah, naturally. [Laughs] Because I told you my dad was a master, huh?

TI: And then during this time, what was your mother doing?

FO: Huh?

TI: Your mother. What was your mother doing during this time? So you're back in Watsonville...

FO: Yeah, she was running the bathhouse, yeah.

TI: Oh, so you were working with both parents, your mom and dad are both there?

FO: Yeah.

TI: And how was that working with --

FO: My mom, she worked out in the ranch, too, yeah.

TI: And so that was, it sounds like, a pretty hard life for your mother, if she worked the ranch?

FO: Oh, for all the Isseis, yeah. Especially in Hawaii, yeah. The Isseis in Hawaii, they both, husband and wife worked in the plantations.

<Begin Segment 27>

TI: So when you think about kind of the experience, the war years, having things taken away, coming back and establishing, do you think it was most hard on the Isseis, when you think of the hard work that you did and everything?

FO: Oh, yeah, naturally, yeah. When I was in camp, there was a family living in our block. They were just, well, I would say lot of 'em were just getting on their feet and ready to expand, and some already expanded, and they got all that taken away. So he just signed double "no-no," and then he went back to Japan, yeah. Just gave up.

TI: But for the Isseis who stayed in the United States, like your mom and dad, how do you think this experience affected them or changed them? When you kind of saw them -- especially you had the opportunity to work closely --

FO: Well, my dad, he became an American citizen, yeah, after they... but my mother, after she lost her mother in that Hiroshima bomb, she just couldn't become a citizen, yeah.

TI: Did she ever share with you kind of her, her thoughts and feelings about losing her mother with the bomb and all the things taken away, and the hard life?

FO: Yeah, well, that's the reason she didn't want to become a citizen. She says she took too much.

TI: And what were some of the things that she talked about or said to you?

FO: Well, that's it. I haven't talked to my parents too much, anything about Japan and this and that.

TI: But just about their lives. I mean, the hardships they had, did you kind of talk to --

FO: No, I didn't talk to, anything about that. That's why when my mother reached a hundred, the consulate in San Francisco wanted me to give the name and address of the relatives in Japan. I couldn't give it to him because I had no contact with nobody, you know. (My mother had already passed away). Like some families, they used to telephone each other and write letter back and forth. But we weren't like that.

TI: And so you your mother didn't keep any -- well, she lost her family, most of her family in the bomb.

FO: No, just her mother.

TI: Just her mother. But she didn't keep some contact?

FO: Yeah, I guess they wrote letter once in a while, yeah. But not much.

TI: Now, was she ever able to visit Japan?

FO: Yeah, she went, she and my sister visited Japan.

TI: And do you know how that was for her? Did you ever talk to her about going back and what she saw and what it meant to her?

FO: Yeah. Especially when you saw that Hiroshima whatchamacallit, that bomb deal, and the man plastered right against the wall, stuff like that. Then another thing, too, is we went to the mother's place, and she thought she had her place pretty well okay, you know. Mother said she couldn't stand that outhouse, I mean, a toilet, Japanese toilet. [Laughs] And they got heck because you got to wear separate slipper when you go to the bathroom.

TI: Well, so when your mother lived over a hundred years, do you think she felt that she lived a good life?

FO: Huh?

TI: That your mother lived a good life? When she lived that long and she saw so much, did she ever reflect back on her life?

FO: Yeah, she said the best thing of a human is when they're suffering, and when the hardship, you know. Then you appreciate things more. Some guys, they got it made and they don't know it, and they're still bitching, you know. And she used to feel sorry for us, because she said, "You guys grew up Depression time, and you guys couldn't get lot of things." But we were all in the same boat, us kids, so we didn't realize some guy got more this and that. When I look at my grandkids, oh, criminy. [Laughs] Yeah, I got to tell them this story one of these days, show 'em that really...

TI: Well, I think they'll get a flavor by just watching this interview, your life and many of the hardships, not only that you lived, but your parents. I mean, I think about -- and I think the Isseis in particular had to work really hard to establish families, and then to make it better for the Niseis, and then the Niseis, I think, made it better for the Sanseis. And then, you're right, the grandkids have it really easy.

<Begin Segment 28>

TI: So let's talk a little bit about your family. So at some point you got married. So who did you marry and when did you get married?

FO: [Laughs] I don't keep track of those things. That's what she gets PO'd, anniversary and wedding, I mean, birthday, I'm not sentimental that way.

TI: But do you remember the year you got married?

FO: Gee, I never did keep track.

TI: Were you married in Watsonville?

FO: Yeah.

TI: And how did you meet your wife?

FO: How did I meet? At a dance, I guess.

TI: And her name is?

FO: Huh?

TI: What's your wife's name?

FO: Betty.

TI: Betty, and what's her maiden name?

FO: Fujita.

TI: Betty Fujita. And you met at a dance, and this is after the war that you met?

FO: Yeah.

TI: And did the two of you have children?

FO: Yeah, we have two daughters.

TI: And your daughters' names are?

FO: Becky and Diane.

TI: And then you mentioned that you have grandchildren?

FO: Yeah, I have five. Diane has a boy and a girl, and Becky has two boys and a girl.

TI: And do they live nearby?

FO: Yeah, they live in Foster City.

TI: Okay, so you get a chance to see them every once in a while.

FO: Yeah. In fact, we were there the other day.

<Begin Segment 29>

TI: And so when you think about, in particular, your grandchildren, and I'm guessing your grandchildren are probably pretty old now, too. They're probably in, what, high school or college?

FO: Yeah, the oldest (boy) is going to college at (UC) Cal right now. (Another daughter is going to Calif. Poly. at San Luis Opispo.)

TI: And so when you think about the differences in your life versus their lives...

FO: Oh, it's a black and white difference. Night and day difference.

TI: So do you think their lives are a lot better than what you had? Are their lives a lot better than yours?

FO: I, well, they're leading a softer life, but I'm just wondering if that will develop character and stuff. Everything's handed to them.

TI: And so if you were to give them advice, what would you tell your grandchildren? Like when you think of your life, your parents' life, what are the important things that you would want them to really think about and know? Because right now, they're still really young, and they're not really thinking about these things. But maybe later on, they'll be interested. What would you tell them?

FO: I'd tell 'em honesty is, you know, and courtesy is the main thing. And I tell them, no matter how wealthy you get, if you got no manners, you're nothing. Yeah. So I don't know if their parents trying to pound it into their heads, but I don't know, but I make them say hello and goodbye, and shake the guy's hand and stuff like that.

TI: So just those basic common courtesies and being honest are traits that you think are really important.

FO: Yeah. 'Cause I was playing a game with him one time, and they thought I didn't know any better and they were cheating, trying to cheat me. I said, "It's a good thing it isn't the old days. I would have pulled out a pistol and you would be dead right now." [Laughs] So I told them that, "Honesty is the best policy."

TI: Well, I encourage you -- and my parents do this with my kids, they take it upon themselves to tell my kids these values. Because I think you're right, sometimes my generation, we get so busy, or we don't do that.

FO: Don't stress those things, huh?

TI: Yeah. And I think a lot of these values that you learned from your parents, sometimes get lost. And so I encourage you to talk about these with your, your grandchildren. Well, so Fred, that's the end of my questions. Is there anything else that you wanted to talk about or say in the interview?

FO: All I can say is we got a president now that's proved that discrimination is getting less. Because nowadays, it's very unusual to see a Japanese marrying a Japanese. My generation, if you wanted to marry out of your race, you had to go Nevada, or you had to go Mexico.

TI: That's a great point. Because you have lived to the point where you've seen Barack Obama be elected president. And so he's an African American president, and so in your life, you're eighty-five years old, you've seen so many changes in America.

FO: Yeah, a big difference.

TI: Does that, what does that make you feel or think about America? 'Cause you went to the point where they put you into a camp because of your race, and now we have the country electing an African American president. So what does that make you feel?

FO: Well, I figured the younger people are getting more educated, and they're realizing this is a small world, and you have to get along with each other.

TI: That's good. Well, Fred, so thank you so much for doing this interview. I really enjoyed it, I enjoyed talking with you. Thank you very much.